Fear of rejection: Asking a girl out

[Yeravos]

Hello board! I am a longtime lurker, first time poster, not feeling so good at the moment.

To keep the post efficient, I'll keep it short and concise.

 

I spoke with a girl yesterday. We go to the same acting course (amateur). After the course, I accompanied her for a while (she lived in another part of the city I live in). So yeah, we talked a bit, and I felt that the conversation ran really smoothly. I got the feeling that she was genuinely interested in talking to me. Anyway, we parted ways, and being energized by our little conversation, I was thinking ''Wow, I really enjoyed that! I want to get to know this girl a little more! I'll contact her and see if she is interested in meeting up sometime!''. This mental state lasted for an hour or so. It became replaced with ''She was just being friendly/polite, she's most likely in a relationship already, she'll think you are weird'', things like that.

I decided however, that I would write to her on facebook anyway, despite me thinking I already knew what the outcome would be.

So, I wrote to her on facebook the morning after, and asked her if she wanted to meet up some day. Went to school, didn't think about while I was in school. When I came home however, and approached the door to my room, I started to feel confined, Trapped. I started my computer, loaded up facebook, saw that the girl had responded to me. And I couldn't open up the chat to see what she had written. I felt extreme anxiety, shut down facebook and started to pace around in my room for a little while. I have calmed down a notch now. I still feel very anxious when I think about her response to me, but I can at least think now. I haven't read the girls response to me yet.

 

Where could this anxiety come from? Because I understand that is not healthy. Because being rejected by practically a stranger shouldn't be such a big deal really. At least, that's how I rationalize. But it seems I cannot understand this emotionally.

 

I'd appreciate any help/different perspective.

 

Sincerely

Yeravos 

[Wesley]

What happened to you as a child when you expressed your preferences/wants/desires to your parents or older siblings?

[Yeravos]

Thank you for responding to me Wesley! I really appreciate it!

 

Let's see... I was (and still am) really interested in nature and animals, When I was quite young (perhaps 6-7 years old) we had these VCR cassettes of National Geographic that I would watch quite often. However, my mother grew tired of having to see them passively when walking by, so she told me to stop watching them because it was annoying her.

Generally, when I have done things ''my way'' so to speak (like, something as simple as liking/disliking a certain food), my mother has more then not, commented on it and told me that my preference was WRONG, and that her preference was right. When I got older, (15 I think), I started to challenge her on those kind of things, and it would often end in us shouting at each other.

My dad wasn't around me that much in my younger years. He would work from 5.30 am, come home around 16.00 and read his newspaper. There wasn't any real interaction between us when he was home. But I know that he was ashamed of me, because the only thing I actually did was play computer games.

 

Damn, my memory has gotten so bad this last 6 months or so, I am really struggling to remember.

 

I hope that's a somewhat good answer.

[Wesley]

So let me summarize what you were taught

 

1. Your preferences are wrong

2. Expressing preferences results in yelling from your mother

3. Your father did not even care about your preferences

4. What you could gather from your father in your limited interactions, your preferences only brought shame

 

It is no wonder that expressing your preferences in a vulnerable way would result in such anxiety with such a terrible history as to what happens to you when your preferences are expressed.

 

I am so sorry that this was your experience.

[Yeravos]

Heh, it's interesting that the answer to my question is so obvious really, having someone else giving their view of that part of my childhood. 

it's really strange. I can understand it rationally, but as I said before, not emotionally. What is missing? What can I do to free myself of my anxiety? Should I expose myself to more situations that make me anxious, and see for myself, that more often then not, they do not warrant that level of stress?

 

Again, thanks for helping me out Wesley!

[Wesley]

The way to not get anxious with asking this girl out is to realize that the anxiety does not come from asking her out. It comes from wanting to watch your animal show as a kid when your mom told you that was wrong or the shame your father had with you playing video games (when he wouldn't spend time doing something with you anyway).

 

You need to truly experience the emotions that you could not experience as a child. Preferably with the help of a therapist, though there are ways to journal or have workbooks to process the emotions (I am sure others can provide some recommendations).

 

Emotional processing comes from allowing yourself to feel the emotion in response to the proper cause of the emotion. These memories came up when I asked you about it, so these are at least part of the formation of rejection, helplessness, and shame when you have preferences you want to express. I would start with them, and continue with other memories that come up during the process.

 

Reading Stef's book Real Time Relationships (RTR) and learning how to RTR with yourself can also be incredibly useful in the future.

[Yeravos]

Wow, that is so helpful! Thank you so much Wesley! Now I have some sense of were to start at least.

[Hugh Akston]

Here's my take on it. I am a Grandfather and have raised three children. I have a son that experiences the exact same anxiety you describe here, which oddly enough, I experienced myself as well young man. I think it is a huge leap to jump to yelling or discipline as the root cause. My parents did have poor childhoods as both their dad's died at a young age and my mum's mother was an alcoholic and my dad's mum put him and his siblings in a orphanage in order to marry a guy, although she did maintain contact through the years. I believe this has contributed to their lacking sense of self-worth, which they have transmitted to me and I in turn to my son. Ironically I overcame many of my anxieties regarding girls, when as part of the hazing at our uni we were forced to ask the girls to dance. The threat being that if one of the girls was standing around at the dance, regardless of how fat and ugly she was, there'd be hell to pay. My advice therefore is to overcome your fear by confronting it and not dwell on the reasons for it. Understanding will come later. Don't look for excuses to be a coward. The faint heart does not win the fair maiden.

[OtherOtie]

My advice therefore is to overcome your fear by confronting it and not dwell on the reasons for it. Understanding will come later. Don't look for excuses to be a coward. The faint heart does not win the fair maiden.

 

No offense, but this doesn't really seem like effective advice. You're basically telling him to overcome his fear by overcoming his fear. If it were that easy, he wouldn't be here looking for something more foundational.

 

Moreover, I think the suggestion that one should not "dwell on the reasons" is actually counterproductive. If we don't explore the cause of our anxiety, then we risk making the mistake of thinking that to be anxious is simply a brute fact of who we are, rather than something inflicted upon us at some point in our development that can be understood and maintained. 

[Hugh Akston]

... I have a theory about people who start a sentence with the words - "no offence".  What you have to learn is that what someone needs to hear is not always what they would like to hear.  You don't get to overcome your fear of water by never getting your feet wet.  As they say, it's not because I'm older and wiser, it's because I've already done all the dumb shit!

http://tkcoleman.com/2013/11/06/act-now-believe-later/

 

A tidbit of wisdom from T.K. Coleman.

[Wesley]

Here's my take on it. I am a Grandfather and have raised three children. I have a son that experiences the exact same anxiety you describe here, which oddly enough, I experienced myself as well young man. I think it is a huge leap to jump to yelling or discipline as the root cause. My parents did have poor childhoods as both their dad's died at a young age and my mum's mother was an alcoholic and my dad's mum put him and his siblings in a orphanage in order to marry a guy, although she did maintain contact through the years. I believe this has contributed to their lacking sense of self-worth, which they have transmitted to me and I in turn to my son. Ironically I overcame many of my anxieties regarding girls, when as part of the hazing at our uni we were forced to ask the girls to dance. The threat being that if one of the girls was standing around at the dance, regardless of how fat and ugly she was, there'd be hell to pay. My advice therefore is to overcome your fear by confronting it and not dwell on the reasons for it. Understanding will come later. Don't look for excuses to be a coward. The faint heart does not win the fair maiden.

 

... I have a theory about people who start a sentence with the words - "no offence".  What you have to learn is that what someone needs to hear is not always what they would like to hear.  You don't get to overcome your fear of water by never getting your feet wet.  As they say, it's not because I'm older and wiser, it's because I've already done all the dumb shit!

http://tkcoleman.com/2013/11/06/act-now-believe-later/

 

A tidbit of wisdom from T.K. Coleman.

 

Its not about any of this. The problem is the lack of empathy for the situation. If someone has a debilitating fear of something, telling them to "just get over it" is not exactly helpful. I am sure that has been thought of by the OP and if it was really that easy then they wouldn't be posting to ask for help on the issue.

[OtherOtie]

... I have a theory about people who start a sentence with the words - "no offence".  What you have to learn is that what someone needs to hear is not always what they would like to hear.  You don't get to overcome your fear of water by never getting your feet wet.  As they say, it's not because I'm older and wiser, it's because I've already done all the dumb shit!

http://tkcoleman.com/2013/11/06/act-now-believe-later/

 

A tidbit of wisdom from T.K. Coleman.

 

I have to disagree. If someone is afraid of water, they can either stand there by the pool in paralysis waiting for themselves to "just do it" ... or they can explore the reason why they fear the water in an attempt to understand how best to overcome that fear. "Just doing it" doesn't actually address anything - all it does is force the individual to confront their anxiety prematurely. 

 

Also... what is your theory about the words "no offense"? =P

[Guest Exceptionalist]

"Just doing it" doesn't actually address anything - all it does is force the individual to confront their anxiety prematurely. 

 

 

It works on a subconscious level, you overcome that particular fear but don't work on the root cause.

 

 

Don't look for excuses to be a coward. The faint heart does not win the fair maiden.

 

 

No wonder why the chicks expect the guy to engage them, so they never get rejected. Refering to "cultural norms" is easier for them, than saying, "I don't wanna take the risk of rejection." Refering to the stereotypical man caricature who is supposed be a crossover of Conan the Barbarian and Romeo, doesn't help a thing. If the prince doesn't dare to confess to the princess he is shamed a coward, rather than she called just convenient. A men degraded as a human doing at its best.

[marius]

I had problems with extreme anxiety, and in the last 2 days i havent felt any of it.

I reached a point when it truly wasnt acceptable anymore.

 

The point is that i committed to not attacking myself, not letting impulses alone drive my actions. Its amazing what thinking -- and committing to it -- can do.

Now i have this moments when i expect anxiety to kick in, and nothing happens...

 

The refusal to stand against one-self.

 

I was also thinking these days that when you are fighting with yourself, you dont stand a chance to win battles in the real world. TPTB see you as no threat. Debates are one thing, attack is another.

 

 

What does the message say?

 

The way to not get anxious with asking this girl out is to realize that the anxiety does not come from asking her out. It comes from wanting to watch your animal show as a kid when your mom told you that was wrong or the shame your father had with you playing video games...

I am no expert, but modern CBT will contradict you. The problem is in the thinking and behaviour mechanism created by that kind of events. The mechanism can be disassembled by first understanding its details, the understanding can come from past analysis ( more data, but difficult to analyze) or current events (subjective, but easy to recall)I asked some questions about this topic lately on fdr and didnt get a reply yet.Before giving this kind of advice, i say mention that you cant be sure. Even stef says this could endanger the person you are trying to help.

[Wesley]

Before giving this kind of advice, i say mention that you cant be sure. Even stef says this could endanger the person you are trying to help.

I apologize if it sounded like I had authority on the matter. I generally preface things as my opinions and not necessarily true. I also almost always suggest that people talk things over with a therapist who is an expert (and did in this instance). I am sorry if it was not clear enough in that particular post and I will be more mindful of using better language in the future.

[Stephen C]

The topic made me think of this article. I don't mean to imply this is the answer or the best way to approach the topic, it's just a tool you can add to your belt if you want to. http://www.rebtnetwork.org/ask/may06.html 

FEAR OF APPROACHING WOMEN

Even more important to the young Albert Ellis was his shyness around women. He flirted with them in Bronx Botanical Garden near his home, but he never approached them. Instead he made up all kinds of excuses to avoid doing so because he was scared of rejection.

At the age of 19, he gave himself a homework assignment when he was off from college. He went to Bronx Botanical Garden every day that month, and whenever he saw a woman sitting alone on a park bench, he would sit next to her, which he wouldn't dare do before. He gave himself one minute to talk to her, calming his fears by saying silently to himself, "If I die, I die. Screw it, so I die."

He didn't die.

He found 130 women sitting alone that month on park benches. He sat next to all of them, whereupon 30 got up and walked away. He spoke to the remaining 100 — for the first time in his life — about the birds and the bees, the flowers, books, whatever came to mind.

Al later said, "If Fred Skinner, who was then teaching at Indiana University, had known about my exploits, he would have thought I would have got extinguished, because of the 100 women I made one date — and she didn't show up!

"But I prepared myself philosophically, even then, by seeing that nobody took out a stiletto and cut my balls off, nobody vomited and ran away, nobody called the cops. I had 100 pleasant conversations and with the second 100 I got good and made a few dates.

"I used techniques I later developed into Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy on myself by thinking philosophically and differently. Nothing is awful or terrible, it's just a pain in the ass. That's all it is.

"There's no horror in being rejected. I forced myself uncomfortably to do what I was afraid of, the opposite of what phobics do, because whenever they're afraid of innocent things, they beat it the hell out of there and then never get over their fears.

"They increase their phobias, as I at first did. In Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy I combined thinkingand philosophy for the first time with feeling — emotion — and also with behavior therapy, which I got from John B. Watson, Fred Skinner and others.

"So it's one of the very few therapies that is multi-modal in Arnold Lazarus' sense, and it includes thinking, feeling and behavior, and has about 20 or 30 techniques under each heading; it has lots of evidence in favor of it."

The emotiveness of REBT makes it unique among the popular cognitive and behavioral therapies used today. The Friends and Supporters of Albert Ellis feel honored to help Dr. Ellis carry his life's work into the 21st century where REBT is as fresh and exciting as it was when the young Albert forced himself to sit on that park bench many years ago.

In our support for Albert Ellis and REBT, we're willing to do what Al suggests— take the risk, experiment, try it!

 

[marius]

thats a helpful post, thanks. do you have experience with CBT/REBT and how it compares  for long term effects with psychodynamic (child focus, dream analysis)?

[Stephen C]

thats a helpful post, thanks. do you have experience with CBT/REBT and how it compares  for long term effects with psychodynamic (child focus, dream analysis)?

You're welcome. In what way is it a helpful post?I worked with a therapist that utilized the CBT approach from 12-14. I was a child, the focus was on me. 

[Hugh Akston]

I have to disagree. If someone is afraid of water, they can either stand there by the pool in paralysis waiting for themselves to "just do it" ... or they can explore the reason why they fear the water in an attempt to understand how best to overcome that fear. "Just doing it" doesn't actually address anything - all it does is force the individual to confront their anxiety prematurely. 

 

Also... what is your theory about the words "no offense"? =P

 

Funny that you accuse me of a lack of empathy, when I explained that I had this exact same fear and had overcome it.  That you chose to dismiss without explaining how my experience is not relevant.  All the "exploring" and "psychologizing" in the world will not help if you don't DO IT.  I have plenty of life experience to base my evidence upon.I think people who start sentences with "no offense" are passive aggressives that might mark someones post down for instance (yes I noticed) because they do not like what is said instead of courteously addressing their points of disagreement.

[marius]

It is nice to see that will power has its place clearly specified; and it was helpful because im doing research on that therapy method.

Acting is crucial, but only after problem analysis.

[Wesley]

Funny that you accuse me of a lack of empathy, when I explained that I had this exact same fear and had overcome it.  That you chose to dismiss without explaining how my experience is not relevant.  All the "exploring" and "psychologizing" in the world will not help if you don't DO IT.  I have plenty of life experience to base my evidence upon.

Assuming your situation was the exact same is not being empathetic. There was a call-in show where someone described that they had panic attacks. They told a parent. Parent says (paraphrasing) "Oh, I had the same thing. Just get over it." Of course, this is not a panic attack as you cannot will yourself out of a panic attack. She assumed she was being empathetic, but rather was projecting her own experiences onto her daughter rather than actually asking what her experience of the situation was.

 

Also, he says "I have really bad panic in asking out women" the solution of "Well did you try asking them out anyway?" was obviously the first thing that he thought of. If help is being sought, it is generally good to assume that they tried the incredibly obvious answer.

 

Obviously, eventually, if the goal is to have a relationship with women then it is axiomatic that he will have to talk to women. However, he can't do it now or it would have been tried. Thus, I asked questions and tried to find where the block might be and then recommended talking with a therapist which would be the best way to overcome an emotional block.

 

The "just get over it" help isn't actually help as I would understand help.

[Stephen C]

It is nice to see that will power has its place clearly specified; and it was helpful because im doing research on that therapy method.

Acting is crucial, but only after problem analysis.

Do you see any problem analysis in this article or in the REBT method in general?

[marius]

Do you see any problem analysis in this article or in the REBT method in general?

 

 

Its too early to say for me, so far i like the focus on action. Im a beginner in this field, my only experience being with what Branden worked on.

I see similarities between the 2 explanations of emotions: Value judgement  given by Branden; ABC from REBT.

And it is confirmed by my introspection, experience.

 

The topic of resistance towards therapy was interesting to me. Giving part of the responsibility for my well being towards the therapist was risky (all or none -- failed concept), it gave bad results. Now i took matters into my own hands (with unprecedented results) but im still planning for a therapist in the near future.Today i read and processed the first ~40 pages of his book "Overcoming resistance". A bi unclear on the concepts of emotions being overlapped with behaviour and thinking, but overall helpful i would say. Definitely recommended.

[OtherOtie]

Funny that you accuse me of a lack of empathy, when I explained that I had this exact same fear and had overcome it.  That you chose to dismiss without explaining how my experience is not relevant.  All the "exploring" and "psychologizing" in the world will not help if you don't DO IT.  I have plenty of life experience to base my evidence upon.I think people who start sentences with "no offense" are passive aggressives that might mark someones post down for instance (yes I noticed) because they do not like what is said instead of courteously addressing their points of disagreement.

 

I'm sorry, where did I accuse you of a lack of empathy?

 

I also don't believe I marked you down... mostly because I have no idea how to do that. Or I might have and forgot, but since I can't seem to figure out the system at the current moment I'm going to go with the former possibility.

[LovePrevails]

Hi and sorry to hear your difficulties

 

I can't offer you an in-depth psychoanalysis of here you anxiety comes from,

but I can tell you what perpetuates it and how to break he cycle

 

It sounds to me like you don't have so much experience of good relationships with the ladies in your life

that might mean you otherise them and put them on a pedestal a bit

 

so my advice to you is get some female friends, even if you start with online friends

get used to being around women and being jokey and fun and enjoying yourself

then start talking to women you don't know, even if i's just a hello how are you, seen any good movies lately

 

2 or 3 years ago I went out up to 4 nights a week for a couple of months and spoke to 20+ strangers each time, mostly women

after that I could start a conversation with literally anyone or any group who passed by me at any time without fear of rejection

[Cornellius]

Well, you're at a point in your life where the need to change yourself is becoming absolutely clear. If you were terrified that the girl might not want to carry on knowing you, then it was an ancient fear of rejection that you are destined to project on every next relationship until you become conscious of the truth. Rediscovering past traumas that you have normalized. Seeing what horrors you have projected onto the world to survive your family situation as a child. Your eyes are closed on the real world so that your family can keep you close without having to address any harm they've ever done to you.

[Slavik]

Maybe someone wrote this before, but too many comments for me to read through.  My advice is this. 

-Asking a girl to meet sometimes, kind of sets the mood of aprove or reject.  Since you posed it this way.  Which in turn this is what you are waiting for, approval or rejection.  But the question to go meet sometimes, well we all know what this means, asking ona  date.

 

---Ok my suggestion, dont ask a girl out on a date, this is important (I think) again, dont ask girl out on a date.  Instead ask her her for cup of coffee (precise and no commitments).  Ask a girl if she wants to go to a nice park or a bike ride or to the lake or to the ocean.  Whatever you can come up with and whatever enviorment suits you.  I used to ask many girls out, not sure why people look for a particular girl, wait for something to click, think on it and only then ask out on a date, too much at stake at that point.  Ask any girl out, you never know where it will lead.

Good luck, and the more you practise the easier it becomes.

 Don't look for excuses to be a coward. The faint heart does not win the fair maiden.

I generally agree with most of what you said, as far as confronting fears and all of that.  But for the sake of all taht is rational, please do refrain from such horrid generalizations that I have quoted.  Keep in mind that the person you are talking to is

1) Not your sibling

2) You dont have a slightest idea of what he or she is dealing with (the question posted here is not nesseserally the only problem he or she /has)

3) Calling someone a coward which you basically have just done, is to continue abuse you yourslef have experienced as a child

And lastly, speaking for myself only, I did have problems with approaching girls before as well, but I was no coward by any stretch of immagination.

Take it any way you wish, I do not have resepct for people who offend others, especially in their time of need.

[Yeravos]

 My advice therefore is to overcome your fear by confronting it and not dwell on the reasons for it. Understanding will come later. Don't look for excuses to be a coward. The faint heart does not win the fair maiden.

Thanks for sharing Hugh! I have thought of this as well, but have found that me trying to overcome this fear, leaves me feeling pretty sad and desperate.

 

Hi and sorry to hear your difficulties

It sounds to me like you don't have so much experience of good relationships with the ladies in your life

that might mean you otherise them and put them on a pedestal a bit

 

 

Thanks for your reply LovePrevails. Yes, you are correct, I think the majority of my relationships with the opposite sex (or any relationships, 

 

for that matter) have been pretty crappy. My mom is and extremely vile human being,some of the worst bullying in my younger years came from girls, most of my female teachers were assholes.

The part about putting women on a pedestal resonates very well within me actually. I think most of the time, I think that I don't have enough to offer a future girlfriend in terms of good qualities.

 

If you were terrified that the girl might not want to carry on knowing you, then it was an ancient fear of rejection that you are destined to project on every next relationship until you become conscious of the truth. 

Thank you Cornellius for sharing your thoughts with me! Yes, I have come to the same conclusion.

[cynicist]

I don't think overcoming the fear is a good idea. You are feeling anxious for a reason, a good reason whatever it is. I'm not going to guess why because I don't know enough about your history to do so but I want to share a possibility that has not been mentioned in this thread so far. A number of times in the past I felt extremely anxious around asking particular women out, not just nervousness but something akin to fear, and I wasn't sure why. Only years later did I realize that these women were very dysfunctional and that my anxiety came from trying to go against my values (it was a warning and it saved my life) because they were attractive and I was only a man

 

I would ask her out again for coffee and monitor your feelings during the conversation. If you continue to remain nervous after getting to know her better I would respect your feelings and not go on a second one.

[Yeravos]

I don't think overcoming the fear is a good idea. You are feeling anxious for a reason, a good reason whatever it is. I'm not going to guess why because I don't know enough about your history to do so but I want to share a possibility that has not been mentioned in this thread so far. A number of times in the past I felt extremely anxious around asking particular women out, not just nervousness but something akin to fear, and I wasn't sure why. Only years later did I realize that these women were very dysfunctional and that my anxiety came from trying to go against my values (it was a warning and it saved my life) because they were attractive and I was only a man

 

I would ask her out again for coffee and monitor your feelings during the conversation. If you continue to remain nervous after getting to know her better I would respect your feelings and not go on a second one.

This is an interesting point, thanks for bringing it up! Well, when I have spoken with her, I have liked it, She has (like me I'd say) a lot of energy, is not afraid to act goofy (like me). Also, she is kind to me.

 

I have thought about this before in particular: I have a tendency to fall quickly in love with girls that are just being kind with me. And this can happen just after a few minutes of talking with the girl in question. A theory I have about this is that in my past, most girls have been mean to me, and now that I am meeting girls that at least are kind to me in a social-first-meeting kind of way, I just fall in love with them. Ahh, that thought feels incomplete, but I don't know atm what to add to it.

 

The one issue I have with her is that I  am fairly certain that politically, she is a socialist. That's the only thing I can think of atm.

[cynicist]

This is an interesting point, thanks for bringing it up! Well, when I have spoken with her, I have liked it, She has (like me I'd say) a lot of energy, is not afraid to act goofy (like me). Also, she is kind to me.

 

I have thought about this before in particular: I have a tendency to fall quickly in love with girls that are just being kind with me. And this can happen just after a few minutes of talking with the girl in question. A theory I have about this is that in my past, most girls have been mean to me, and now that I am meeting girls that at least are kind to me in a social-first-meeting kind of way, I just fall in love with them. Ahh, that thought feels incomplete, but I don't know atm what to add to it.

 

The one issue I have with her is that I  am fairly certain that politically, she is a socialist. That's the only thing I can think of atm.

 

Oh no, I know exactly what you mean. It's like you were starved for positive attention in your life so when someone shows you positive attention they just immediately become special to you.

 

The socialist thing isn't great but none of us are perfect She sounds nice, I hope your date goes well.