Dayna Martin... WTF!?!

[Rayne]

I came across this article today and... I'm speechless.

 

http://thelivingfreeproject.com/the-real-price-of-radical-unschool-gurus-a-real-time-story/

 

I didn't follow every link in the article but I did read these blog entries:

 

http://unschoolingthegreenfamily.blogspot.com/2013/07/watching-unschooling-pieces-crumble.html

 

http://unschoolingthegreenfamily.blogspot.com/2013/07/watching-unschooling-pieces-crumble_15.html

 

Also, I found the level of plagiarism in her articles disturbing.  For example:

 

• Dayna’s  plagiarized article here.  The original article published months earlier by another author is  here 

 

 

Jaw-dropping.

[ribuck]

Jaw-dropping indeed if it is all as presented, but it does smell a bit like a "bitch-fest".

 

 

 

She told us on several occasions that her main wish is to have a happy life like we do and that she would love to be able to be authentic in her own life.

 

It would be quite astonishing if Dayna actually said those words.

 

If she really is an alcoholic, obviously she needs to sort that out before she can meaningfully do any more un-nannying. And if her personal situation is as desperate as implied by the Green family, I hope she can get whatever help she needs to sort it out. Notice, though, that this all happened months ago and things might have changed since then.

 

I think it would be very worthwhile for Stefan to do a "listener conversation" with her.

[Wesley]

I do agree that a conversation would be great.

 

I am not sure what to make of it. What bit I sifted through seems to be completely full of scary language and not full of much evidence.

 

Plagiarism is evidenced, but occasionally copying sections when you are doing hundreds (or thousands? [i don't know how much she produces]) of articles and posts is definitely a temptation; she doesn't make money directly from plagiarized material, but they are just there for information. I do not find this a big deal if I understand the extent of it.

 

I did not see stuff on alcoholism (which based on what I did read is probably not quoted from her, but hearsay). However, if this is true then it would be good for her to talk about it and get help with it.

[Rayne]

Plagiarism is evidenced, but occasionally copying sections when you are doing hundreds (or thousands? [i don't know how much she produces]) of articles and posts is definitely a temptation; she doesn't make money directly from plagiarized material, but they are just there for information. I do not find this a big deal if I understand the extent of it.

 

But did you look at those articles side by side?  It's not like she borrowed a phrase or two.

 

If one is in ownership of the fruits of their labor (i.e. a written work) wouldn't plagiarism be theft regardless of whether the parties in question make money from the work?

[Wesley]

But did you look at those articles side by side?  It's not like she borrowed a phrase or two.

 

If one is in ownership of the fruits of their labor (i.e. a written work) wouldn't plagiarism be theft regardless of whether the parties in question make money from the work?

This is getting into IP a little bit. IP is not valid property so it is not theft. It is slightly scummy and not the most virtuous action, but it is not theft.

 

Feel free to search the threads or some of Stef's more recent videos, or Jeffrey Tucker's work on IP in order to outline the arguments against IP.

[MysterionMuffles]

Dayna does say that unschooling is not for everyone and especially not for the lazy parent. So whoever is bad mouthing her on that aspect probably just inherently sucks at parenting or just can't handle unschooling.

 

As for the plagariasm, I dunno how to feel.

[ribuck]

As for the plagariasm, I dunno how to feel.

 

In a piece of academic research, it would be plagiarism. When people are disseminating knowledge, it's perhaps slightly discourteous but nothing more. Dayna did not claim that she was presenting her own original research, which would have been dishonest.

 

Whenever I write about "turning the other cheek", I generally fail to credit the Bible as the original source of my words. So I'm no better than Dayna in that regard.

 

And Stef's own videos are full of unattributed images, yet the world keeps turning.

[Rayne]

Dayna does say that unschooling is not for everyone and especially not for the lazy parent. So whoever is bad mouthing her on that aspect probably just inherently sucks at parenting or just can't handle unschooling.

 

I found the article at http://thelivingfreeproject.com/ which is founded by Laurette Lynn.  Laurette is a home education advocate whom Stef has had on his show.  The Clearinghouse on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/414499508667539/members/ was created by Sandra Dodd who has been an unschooling advocate for many years.  http://sandradodd.com/

[MysterionMuffles]

Well I'll be damned.

[PatrickC]

Yes, it is gossip and hearsay, but I found Dayna's response to the criticism as less than satisfactory (from her various facebook/blog ramblings). Of course this is for each person to work out for themselves. I certainly still consider Dayna as a great exponent of unschooling. If she has personal issues then I hope she gets help for that. Not like she's not amongst great minds that can't help her in that direction, if need be.

[PatrickC]

An interesting perspective on gossip.

 

[Rayne]

xelent, what a great clip!  Such a powerful performance!

 

I do, however, think there is more than gossip here.

 

I was really bothered by the personal story about Dayna Martin.  First, because of the behavior described in the blog post (especially around children), but second that someone would feel the need to tell the story publicly.  So I read the whole blog (entries 1-11).  Including the comment sections.

 

And then I went to the Clearinghouse on Facebook and skimmed the gathered material.  One post that stood out to me and I read the thread in full was titled "Preaching what one does not practice" and posted on July 28th.  The stories struck me as similar to when Stefan has described his mom as "turning a switch" from being verbally abusive to him and then answering the phone with a happy, normal voice.

 

I think this "Dayna Martin is a fraud" story bothers me so much because it reminds me of my mom.  She was always telling everyone about what a great parent she was and she was very loving, interactive and supportive to other people's kids but at home she would spend all day locked in her room while my brother and I sat in the living room and watched the shadows move slowly across the carpet.

 

So, maybe my personal baggage makes me biased, but I believe the blogger and I feel for the families affected (including the Martin kids).

[PatrickC]

I think this "Dayna Martin is a fraud" story bothers me so much because it reminds me of my mom.  She was always telling everyone about what a great parent she was and she was very loving, interactive and supportive to other people's kids but at home she would spend all day locked in her room while my brother and I sat in the living room and watched the shadows move slowly across the carpet.

 

So, maybe my personal baggage makes me biased, but I believe the blogger and I feel for the families affected (including the Martin kids).

 

I think it's very cool that you went to the root cause for your anxiety about this, in highlighting your mothers behaviour. What ever is true, embelished or not about Dayna from this blog, is I would conclude not about Dayna for you.

 

That said, I am cautious either way on this topic, since we only have anecdotal evidence. I know Dayna is considered a virtuous person (particularly at FDR) and this blog has unfortunately spoilt that view for many.

[Wesley]

I just would give her the benefit of the doubt until there is better evidence than hearsay.

 

I think Stef having a "listener conversation" with her could settle whatever is really going on and help her get on the  right path if something is going on.

 

I would agree that I am glad that you went to the core of the issue for yourself and I am sorry that you experienced such things. However, it would not be fair to Dayna to project your feelings from your mother onto Dayna until we get real information from her or her children or something as to what may be going on.

[PhilipJ]

I think it might be important to remember that Dayna is an unschooling advocate, but has not claimed to have ever done significant self work. Based on what I know about her, she was raised by a single mom. That means, without doubt in my mind, there was trauma that needed to be processed.

 

Who knows how much of that blog post is true, but has she ever claimed to be philosophical and dedicated to truth?

[Think Free]

I have never heard of Dayna Martin before, but I am horrified to know that unschooling is getting smeared by these kinds of stories and characters.

 

EDIT: Based on the blogs description of Dayna Martin, I would have cut off the relationship with her long before it came to any of this. All that can be said for sure about any of this is that at least one person has some serious issues, if not all parties involved.

 

Regarding plagiarism, copying someone else's article and then claiming to have written it yourself is not ethical--not because it belongs to the original author, but because you are lying about your authorship.

 

EDIT2: And in this case it basically turns to fraud because she receives payment for her work as expert in this area.

[Rayne]

This is just awful!  It's like finding out that your fitness guru gets lipo regularly.  Or when Lance Armstrong came clean about doping...

 

There is so much in the Clearinghouse!  A lot of hating going on for sure but also a lot of facts and anectodal evidence.  Here is a blog post from Laurette Lynn from May 5th regarding false accusations by Dayna Martin:  http://laurettelynn.blogspot.com/2013/07/public-allegations-draft.html

[Wesley]

Hmmm... I am not sure where this started but it seems to be continually escalating at this point. 

 

Something is definitely going on here, and this was a more direct experience than what I read earlier, so i would consider it better evidence. 

 

I doubt they would ever agree to it, but having Laurette and Dayna on to talk about things would be good. Even if it is not published. In-fighting does not help the spread of ideas.

[Rayne]

Hmmm... I am not sure where this started but it seems to be continually escalating at this point. 

 

Something is definitely going on here, and this was a more direct experience than what I read earlier, so i would consider it better evidence. 

 

I doubt they would ever agree to it, but having Laurette and Dayna on to talk about things would be good. Even if it is not published. In-fighting does not help the spread of ideas.

 

From this blog post, I assume that she wouldn't be interested:

 

http://laurettelynn.blogspot.com/2013/07/all-i-know-about-ru-drama.html?m=1

 

 

Also, this all happened months ago.  I just came upon it during my unschooling/homeschooling research.

[Rayne]

Here's another unschooler blogging about Dayna Martin and the entry is from this week: http://www.jennifermcgrail.com/2013/10/its-not-personal-its-business-my-dealings-with-dayna-martin/?fb_source=pubv1

[st434u]

I read the article and it just seemed like a terribly low-quality smear campaign. They say Dayna wasn't there to help, that she had her own agenda. No explanation whatsoever as to what this actually entails or any description of the ACTIONS she took that were so harmful. Nothing, just a big pile of bad words and thoughts for her.

 

Same with the stuff on the review on amazon. No posting of the actual "bullying" message, whether real or invented. The author is simply going off of the one-sentence that the reviewer wrote as to their perception of the message that they received from Dana's husband, which didn't go into detail at all; and from there the author concludes that "if this isn't cyber bullying, I don't know what is". Ridiculous. And really, anyone who talks about "cyber bullying" has already lost a lot of my respect. Bullying is a "nice" word for beating. There is nothing of the sort online. All you gotta do is press a block button or close the program.

 

About the plagiarism, I didn't read the links. Maybe I will do it later. But in most cases, people who accuse others of "plagiarizing" are just resentful that someone else has expressed the same ideas in a more effective manner or reaching a bigger audience. It's not a big deal unless there's clear intentional dishonesty.

[MysterionMuffles]

I kinda lost interest in this "feud." Especially if its roots were due to the Wife Swap episode. As far as I know it started becayse Laurette Lynn made a post about the Wife Swap episode being a detrement to unschooling, that it got misrepresented and showed unschooling as a lazy and ineffective way to raise children.

 

I don't know the full details, but if the roots are really due to that episode, then I think the feud between them is a waste of time. I can understand the irritation of having subjugated the Martin kids around that disciplinarian mother, but at least from my perspective, the episode showed unschooling to be a more loving and effective approach to have kids that are simply happy.

[Rayne]

I don't think there is a feud between Laurette Lynn and Dayna Martin.  I think the issue is the exposure of Dayna Martin as a fraud who plagiarizes other people's work and charges for her services as an expert consultant when she is not.

[Ruben Zandstra]

Dayna Martin has plagiarised.

Therefore she is not an expert consultant.

 

This is some pretty bad logic.

[Guest Exceptionalist]

Dayna Martin has plagiarised.

Therefore she is not an expert consultant.

 

This is some pretty bad logic.

 

Michael Schumacher didn't invent the wheel, so he cannot be considered an excelent race driver.   Piss poor logic, IMHO. 

[MysterionMuffles]

I agree it's kinda shitty how her plagarism is either implicit or explicit, just nonetheless plagarism.

 

But that doesn't affect her parenting philosophy and how effective it could be. Her kids seem to be really well off with her parenting, as they make more money than most adults with their independant business ventures. (I believe it's Tiffany who has a pet sitting business while Devon makes clothing, and now he's also moved on to blacksmithery)

 

Not to mention all the testimonials from people who have consulted with her.

 

I wouldn't try to make you examine why you might be attracted to this narrative, Rayne, you seem to know already. I would just suggest you look at it deeper, and see what else about it that you think you can gain from it by keeping up with it. If you want to unschool or homeschool, but are sceptical about the different approaches, Dayna's in particular, that's good. You should be. Keeps you open for more options.

[BrianBrian]

Here is a direct quote from the second link which Rayne, the original poster, claims to have read:

 

Dayna is sitting between my husband and my friend’s husband, at the end of the table. She is taking her knife and stabbing it in to the table, manages to order and down 3 double vodka drinks, and is trying to get each of the guys to hold her hand and continues to grope them when they refuse to touch her. On the way home she is in the backseat with my youngest and her friend. Dayna begins pulling up pictures of penises on the ipad and they all giggle the entire way. We get home, Dayna comes in to my bedroom, grabs my ipad, rips the cover off of it and starts slamming and poking it. I told her to stop treating my ipad like that. She said she will do whatever she wants because she doesn’t like ipad covers. I take it from her and lay it on my bed. I turn around and she has left the room with my ipad. I find her in my backyard, with the cover ripped off again and she has thrown my ipad in to our firepit. I tell her that it is ridiculous that I even have to say it, but she is no longer allowed to touch my electronics. I tell my husband and he goes to the RV to see what is going on. I was not in the RV, so I cannot repeat what came out of her mouth, but we both felt that we were all in danger at that point, because of what she was saying to my husband. To make sure we were all safe, my husband had to stay in the RV with her to ensure she would not try to enter the house. I still sleep with a knife next to my bed 6 weeks later.

 

So either the author allowed someone who she felt was endangering her children to stay around her children for days following orrr............

[Kevin Beal]

So either the author allowed someone who she felt was endangering her children to stay around her children for days following orrr............

Right. Yea, that part really bothered me too. Dayna is apparently so crazy and yet she continues to expose her children to her, and in privacy no less.

 

There were some things that didn't add up for me either.

[dtuur]

Today I posted the text below on my facebook wall: 
 

Liberty Role Models: Beware the Veil of Admiration! 
— case in point: unschooling advocate Dayna Martin

 

My first introduction to philosophy and libertarianism happened through sudbury and unschooling, so this is a challenge for me as it touches on my historical doorway to ideas that deeply impacted my entire life.

Back in march, two people already voiced their personal concerns to me about Dayna as a role model, but I think didn't really process what they told me then.

 

Now, after doing some research, quite a lot of additional concerning —and frankly, shocking—material turns up around her.

 

I think the following links are important to share:

 

http://sandradodd.com/problems/daynamartin/

 

http://unschoolingthegreenfamily.blogspot.com/2013/07/watching-unschooling-pieces-crumble.html

 

http://www.jennifermcgrail.com/2013/10/its-not-personal-its-business-my-dealings-with-dayna-martin

 

Without casting a final verdict, to me this is reason for serious concern.

Of course I remain open to evidence to the contrary, but I think that especially people who choose to become public personalities should welcome reasonable criticism and scrutiny of their integrity. Which is is my intention with this post.

 

And there's a broader reason for me to bring up the idea of scrutinizing role models.

There are too many blogs, video's, podcasts, and books about morality & happiness for us to absorb in a hundred lifetimes.

 

Therefore I wholly agree with the strategy of carefully considering the humans behind these ideas, mainly in search for results and consistency, BEFORE we invest our precious time into studying their work in detail.

Life's too precious to waste on snake oil and dead ends.

 

 

A number of people chimed in with comments about and personal experiences they've had with Dayna. 

[Ashton]

Dayna does say that unschooling is not for everyone and especially not for the lazy parent. So whoever is bad mouthing her on that aspect probably just inherently sucks at parenting or just can't handle unschooling.

I don't agree with unschooling, so does that mean i am "a lazy parent" and "suck at parenting"? Considering unschooling is currently the lowest quality of child education, i'm glad i don't unschool.A rather large amount of assumptions in that statement.

[MysterionMuffles]

No. I said someone who bad mouths her on that aspect probably sucks at parenting OR just can't handle unschooling. I should change that last part to something less presumptious like or just wouldn't align with unschooling. As for the other point, what I gather from what Dayna says about unschooling not being for the lazy parent is that if you are a lazy parent, unschooling could be just an excuse to not parent at all. I'm not implying those who don't unschool or have no interest in it are inherently lazy, it just wouldn't be a fit for them.

 

Actually I do recognize how strongly I was defending her to the point of saying anyone who bad mouths her sucks at parenting, there's no way to verify that. I was riding on the assumption that only strict disciplinarians would disagree with her approach, but as this community has shown me, that certainly isn't true. Everyone's free to disagree with her unschooling approach, but what's important is taking the threat of force and coercision from all parenting. Whether you unschool, homeschool, or even send your kids to school, what I think matters the most is the respect to the NAP when it comes parenting.

[tjt]

 

 

Rainbow Jamz, on 22 Oct 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Dayna does say that unschooling is not for everyone and especially not for the lazy parent. So whoever is bad mouthing her on that aspect probably just inherently sucks at parenting or just can't handle unschooling.

 

I don't agree with unschooling, so does that mean i am "a lazy parent" and "suck at parenting"? Considering unschooling is currently the lowest quality of child education, i'm glad i don't unschool.

 

A rather large amount of assumptions in that statement.

 

 

Ashton, you twisted the words. When Rainbow Jamz says that "unschooling is not for the lazy parent" it is not at all the same as saying "parents that don't agree with unschooling are lazy." Did you notice that you did this?

 

unschooling is not for lazy parents

cannot mean that

parents are lazy if they don't unschool

 

-edited for clarity-

[MysterionMuffles]

You twisted the words. Saying that "unschooling is not for the lazy parent" is not at all the same as saying "parents that don't unschool are lazy." Hopefully you see that.

 

Please refer to post I wrote above this one.

[MysterionMuffles]

sorry for the miscommunication tjt, I thought you were criticizing my original post, which I don't stand by anymore since revising my statement as well as revising my perceptions on parenting. Again, all I care for is if there's no coercision in parenting, people are free to unschool, homeschool or even traditionally school their kids with the express knowledge of what environment they might land in.

I dunno why I thought you were addressing me but thanks for clearing that stuff up with me in the PMs, tjt!

[tjt]

No problem, Rainbow Jamz, I'm glad I followed up with you!

I'm going to pay closer attention to how clear my writing is before I post. Thank you!