I need help to prove the case for non-force against a 3 year old

[stigskog]

I have just been to marriage counselling with my wife.

 

The main point of contention was whether or not it is ok to force my 3.5 year old to go to daycare if he doesnt want to.

 

We have agreed with the daycare that he should go 4 days a week for 4 hours each day. My wife and I both agree that it is a stimulating and useful Montessori environment for him and we want him to go. We also need to work at least some hours per day to have an income.

 

Currently, he will go to daycare if I agree to come in with him and stay for some time, yesterday I stayed for 1 hour, and then he was perfectly happy for me to go and for him to stay for the remaining 3 hours.

 

The staff there do not like it that come in with him. I agree that it would be better to say goodbye at the door, but my son is not comfortable with that yet.

 

However, and this is where the disagreement arises, if when it comes drop him off, he will not stay without me, both my wife and the staff and happy for him to be restrained while I walk away. We have not done this so far, as I refuse to do this. The marriage guidance person also thinks this is fine.

 

I have to note that my wife, the daycare staff, and the marriage guidance person will not say directly - yes, we will hold him back kicking and screaming while you walk away .  What they say is things like "you have to tell him that this is how it has to be and then walk away" ... they omit the physical force part.

 

I have lots of people against me on this and I need to find some evidence - articles, research etc, that not using force is best for my son.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ribuck]

Just stick with your convictions. Stay with him as long as it takes for him to feel comfortable (but stay in the background and don't interact with him). If he's not anxious about separation, he soon won't need you there anymore.

 

 

 

Currently, he will go to daycare if I agree to come in with him and stay for some time, yesterday I stayed for 1 hour, and then he was perfectly happy for me to go and for him to stay for the remaining 3 hours.

 

That's great! If he was perfectly happy for you to go after an hour, the time will come when he is perfectly happy for you to leave straight away.

 

For a three-year-old the world can be a scary place, and he needs to know that you would never abandon him.

[stigskog]

I have just been to marriage counselling with my wife.

 

The main point of contention was whether or not it is ok to force my 3.5 year old to go to daycare if he doesnt want to.

 

We have agreed with the daycare that he should go 4 days a week for 4 hours each day. My wife and I both agree that it is a stimulating and useful Montessori environment for him and we want him to go. We also need to work at least some hours per day to have an income.

 

Currently, he will go to daycare if I agree to come in with him and stay for some time, yesterday I stayed for 1 hour, and then he was perfectly happy for me to go and for him to stay for the remaining 3 hours.

 

The staff there do not like it that come in with him. I agree that it would be better to say goodbye at the door, but my son is not comfortable with that yet.

 

However, and this is where the disagreement arises, if when it comes drop him off, he will not stay without me, both my wife and the staff and happy for him to be restrained while I walk away. We have not done this so far, as I refuse to do this. The marriage guidance person also thinks this is fine.

 

I have to note that my wife, the daycare staff, and the marriage guidance person will not say directly - yes, we will hold him back kicking and screaming while you walk away . What they say is things like "you have to tell him that this is how it has to be and then walk away" ... they omit the physical force part.

 

I have lots of people against me on this and I need to find some evidence - articles, research etc, that not using force is best for my son. All the stuff I can find, is against spanking and violence.

[Hannibal]

You use force to stop you kid running out into the street, even if he really wants to, right?   So restraining him at daycare id no different.

The important points to me are:

 

1) Do you want to force your kid to do things he doesn't want to do?

2) Do you have a choice?

 

 

If you have no choice then you have no choice - the kid's gotta eat, even if that means you have to go to work and leave him in daycare.

If you do have a choice, then it comes down to whether you want to force him or not - I think its as simple as that. I don't think books and research is going to help you much, because what you're facing a question of how you want to raise your son. 

 

I'm trying not to put words in your mouth, so to speak, so its hard to articulate, but I think that this isn't so much a question of whether its damaging to use force as it is a question of how you want to teach your boy about the ways people should interact.

[stigskog]

Thanks for your comment Hannibal.

 

I think there is a difference between using force to stop someone who is in immediate danger (running in the road), and using force as a way of persuading someone to do something that is in there best interest in the medium or long term.

 

1) Do you want to force your kid to do things he doesn't want to do?

             No, at 3.5years he is open to reason. On the other hand, I force him not to do things that he wants to do... like the running in the road example.. also things such  as handling a knife in a dangerous way, or damaging the property of others. If there are things that I want him to do and he doesn't, I find out why and adjust that aspect of the activity. If there is no solution, then that is the end of it. Ruling out force, means always having to a) prepare, b) look for a solution, c) be prepared to give way and d) explain.

 

2) Do you have a choice?  - with daycare, yes. We work from home for ourselves, so the worst case is we work the super early shift or the late shift to get the work done. Today was 'forest trek' day at daycare. Last Friday, he refused to go. This Friday he didn't hesitate.

 

I do think it is damaging to use force. It is stressful, it breaks trust, it destroys opportunities for working together to find solutions i.e. brain excercise.

 

  I don't want him to think that people should interact by using force to control each other.

 

I am sure. I am just not good enough at convincing others  and need help from authoritative sources.

[st434u]

The Montessori method of schooling is like limited government on the political side of things. It keeps aggressive force to a minimum, but it's still there.

 

I would suggest to you that, while this is immensely less damaging for your child than dropping him off at your average pre-K or daycare, it's still not a healthy environment for your child and he knows it. That's why he doesn't want to go, and why he insists on not being left alone there.

 

Have you looked into unschooling? While the time you need to invest can be an issue, you can find ways around it. For example, it would be better if you could find someone you know and trust personally to take care of your child while you're working, rather than dropping him at a place he doesn't want to be in.

 

Also, you said you and your wife work from home? If so, is it absolutely necessary that your child be outside while you're working? You don't necessarily have to interact with him 100% of the time. He could be around playing while you work, as long as he understands what's happening, it shouldn't be a major problem. In fact it helps children build a stronger sense of "work ethics" when they're around their parents while they work. Especially if you can show them how things are done (which may prove hard in today's day and age where most work is intellectual and he needs to learn how to read first). I'm not sure if you can keep an eye on him while working so that he doesn't accidentally harm himself, so if you can't, this may not work. You could also consider taking turns with your wife, if that's a possibility at all.

 

And btw, you said you use force to prevent him from doing dangerous things to himself or others or other's property. That's ok the first time if he doesn't know what's going on. But the best approach is to try and explain to him, as best you can, why these things are dangerous or why they could have negative consequences for him. I'm not saying you're not doing that, but if it becomes a repetitive thing you have to be watching out for, then you might want to try and explain these things to him in more detail. Even if he doesn't understand *why* something is dangerous or risky (which he should in most situations), just knowing that you think they are dangerous or risky will usually be enough for him to not want to do these things. Most people just grab the child's arm when he's trying to walk into traffic or playing with a metal toy around a power socket, but because they don't explain, the child often feels like they are being controlled for no reason other than to satisfy their parent's desires instead of being allowed to fulfill their own.

On not using force... While there are plenty of articles and books out there, just pose the following question to the people who disagree: Imagine you are him. Would you want to be held down crying and screaming while your father walks away?

 

There is a reason why he feels this way, and pretending that the feeling is wrong and must be crushed is not only not a solution, but will scar him for life and he will lose trust in you.

 

Of course this is not a problem for most schools and daycare centers because that is actually their main goal. Modern day schools were designed to break children down and destroy any emotional bond between them and their families, so that they can be turned into brainwashed, mindless, obedient, patriotic zombie soldiers who worship the State above all else.

 

The Montessori method is interesting because in a lot of ways it embraces individualism, peaceful interactions and freedom. But at it's core it still has many things in common with the wretched State system of schooling (and I don't mean just public schools here, as regular "private" schools are still State-sanctioned and model their system off of the State's system)

[Rayne]

Have you read The Whole Brain Child by Dan Siegel?  It might help.  He has a section that talks about the "upstairs brain" vs. the "downstairs brain" which you might find interesting regarding emotional self-control.

 

I think you should do whatever is best for your family.  You said that you were in marriage counseling.  Is that solely because of this issue?  Because if this is getting in the way of you having a happy marriage then that may be affecting your son more than being left at daycare.  (Or not, just a thought)

 

And, in my opinion, the preschool teachers should be fine with you staying as long as you like.  Just so long as you don't get in the way.  We had our son going to an early learning center (glorified daycare) 2 days a week for about a year and a lot of the time he wouldn't want me to go so I would sit with him during circle time, usually 10-15 minutes, and I wasn't the only parent who did that.

 

Does he cry when you are both entering the school or only when you turn to leave him?  If it's the latter then you're not forcing him to go to school, you're just forcing him to cope with you leaving which is a skill he will need to develop at some point right?  I don't know.  After the year of daycare I quit my job and we switched to a preschool that was only 3 hrs, 2 days a week and they wanted us to drop kids off and leave right away for a "smooth and quick transition."  The second week I took him to school be was crying as soon as I pulled up, and grabbing at the door, and did NOT want to go in.  So, I withdrew him from school and we went home.  I was not going to force him to go if he didn't want to.

 

I will say that the crying at the first school was different than the second school.  You know your son best.  If going to preschool is really traumatic for him, don't force it.  If it's just because you're leaving him then I'm sure as he feels more comfortable with his new teachers he won't need you there for as long of a transition.  

[ccuthbert]

stigskog, You are a wonderful father for staying with your son. I believe you are doing absolutely the right thing and it would be a shame if you gave into those such as your wife and the people on this forum (?) who think it's ok to hog tie a child to stay in what is tantamount to a prison. This is called rationalization. Maria Montessori was a a genius. If you read her books and look at the schools that claim to be following her methods, you will see a huge gap.

 

Might I gently suggest that you read this essay I wrote called "Raise Your Own" http://archive.lewrockwell.com/cuthbert/cuthbert10.html

 

IMHO, for the long term wellbeing of children, there should be no daycare whatsoever. I realize that there are financial considerations and I am sympathetic to people's difficulties. Nevertheless, daycare is harmful, period. Just about anything would be better--preferrable a grandmother if mom can't care for her child all day.

 

Stick to your position and keep peacefully parenting your son. You won't regret it.

[stigskog]

st434u -  Thanks for your response.. "The Montessori method of schooling is like limited government on the political side of things. It keeps aggressive force to a minimum, but it's still there."    -

 

Great observation.. the staff are like that.. they are lovely gentle people.. but part of their job is to hold on to kids who dont want to be there as their parents walk away. This clearly desensitizes them to what is going on.

 

"Have you looked into unschooling? "  

 

We went to Life Rocks Unschooling Confernece in New Hampshire in the spring.. very interesting .  There were a couple of negative things that I couldn't embrace. There was a sort of competitiveness about whos kid started reading the latest... and many kids had gone through serious computer game addictions.  We taught my eldest to read using Glenn Domans methods .. this taught us a lot about respecting childrens abilities and led me towards unschooling (ironically i suppose!) 

 

 

"On not using force... While there are plenty of articles and books out there, just pose the following question to the people who disagree: Imagine you are him. Would you want to be held down crying and screaming while your father walks away?"

 

This is great and seems clear to me... but I have tried it and the standard answer to this is something along the lines of "but he is only 3 , do you expect him to have the judgement of an adult?"

 

"There is a reason why he feels this way, and pretending that the feeling is wrong and must be crushed is not only not a solution, but will scar him for life and he will lose trust in you."  

 

yes, i agree, there is always a reason and you can get to it if you ask the right questions in the right way. The other week he pushed another kid off a slide at a playgroup (where parents go too). It turned out after a long chat, that he felt like he had waited long enough for the kid in front of him to go, and he wanted too have a go (and therefore pushing was ok)... which unsurprisingly is how his mum gets with him sometimes.

 

 

RAYNE - thanks for the book tip - here is a discussion of the book in case anyone finds it helpful .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH3attYm9OQ

 

Marriage counselling is an attempt by my wife to get someone in authority to agree with her in order to get me to stop blocking her use of force. The marriage guidance person is trained in working with children. It is a useful way to have a moderated discussion, so it is definitely worth going. We plan to go regularly and once we get past this issue, we can work on others.

 

" the preschool teachers should be fine with you staying as long as you like."  not really, i've seen plenty of eye rolling. They have not come across parents who stay for more than a minute or two before. To generalise massively, it isn't really done like that in Sweden

 

He doesn't cry. He says very clearly.. "I want you to stay".. he says he feels nervous..  i wont go until he agrees, so crying doesnt come up, but he isn't enthusiastic, although he has run from the gate to the door of the building the last few days... The staff say that he feels my uncertainty.. and that why he is uncertain. On the other hand my almost 2 year old would get upset before when we went to collect him because he wanted to stay there, so we signed him up and he is super enthusiastic to go, if he isnt then we wont force him of course.. we think he is too young.. but he clearly loves is, so we decided to give it a chance.

 

"smooth and quick transition."... isn't that  just an efficient  way of breaking a child !?

 

By the way, congratulations on observing your child so well and re-arranging your life - quitting your job etc, to improve his. 

 

ccuthbert That article is interesting, so is the Zinmeister one (the link on your article didnt work, but this one does  http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/daycare.pdf ) - I appreciate your encouragement. 

 

I have noticed that if we listen to him... and i mean listen and take action relevant to what he says.. then he talks to us clearly. If we just listen but ignore then he doesn't.. why bother?

[stigskog]

Today, the marriage guidance counsellor said I was a bad father.  This was when my wife said that my eldest son had not had a bath for 2 weeks because I would not allow her to force/drag him in to the bath. We did point out that we had been swimming 4 times in that period. She said this was bad because at some point in the future, kids in daycare or school might decide our son is smelly and be nasty too him. I agree it is better to be clean than dirty, but it is not a medical emergency and does not justify using force.

 

She seemed to get annoyed with me that I kept pointing out that using force (dragging, grabbing, restraining) was not acceptable against a 3.5 year old. She got especially annoyed when I asked her what was the difference between right and wrong, and how she had taught that to her own kids. 

 

The counsellor also said that if we decide to home-school our sons, they will be at home all alone and grow up without social skills.

 

I think we should probably change guidance counsellor.

 

This evening, my son voluntarily had a bath while my wife was out, he even let his little brother spray the shower on his hair The key was finding out why he didn't want to (temperature, lack of toy cars), and fixing it. This was impossible to do before because my wife tends to be in too much of a hurry.

[ribuck]

Well done for sticking to your principles and avoiding force.

[NeoEclectic]

Today, the marriage guidance counsellor said I was a bad father.  This was when my wife said that my eldest son had not had a bath for 2 weeks because I would not allow her to force/drag him in to the bath. We did point out that we had been swimming 4 times in that period. She said this was bad because at some point in the future, kids in daycare or school might decide our son is smelly and be nasty too him. I agree it is better to be clean than dirty, but it is not a medical emergency and does not justify using force.

 

She seemed to get annoyed with me that I kept pointing out that using force (dragging, grabbing, restraining) was not acceptable against a 3.5 year old. She got especially annoyed when I asked her what was the difference between right and wrong, and how she had taught that to her own kids. 

 

The counsellor also said that if we decide to home-school our sons, they will be at home all alone and grow up without social skills.

 

I think we should probably change guidance counsellor.

 

This evening, my son voluntarily had a bath while my wife was out, he even let his little brother spray the shower on his hair The key was finding out why he didn't want to (temperature, lack of toy cars), and fixing it. This was impossible to do before because my wife tends to be in too much of a hurry.

 

This is a slippery slope as far as development goes. There is a difference between forcing a child to do something and trying to teach a child habits that will serve them well in life later. The thing about the bath I think does absolutely no harm to him at all. It's not like taking a bath to him is like wading through a pool of acid where his skin melts off. It reinforces the importance of maintaining personal hygiene which can have severe negative effects in adulthood if it's not practiced. There are other health implications as well that directly impacts the individual as a result of not bathing regularly.

 

I can only imagine that in adulthood that your son refuses to take baths because there were no toy cars or because he can't figure out you can change the temperature of the water.

 

For example, one of my friends is in his 30's has about only 3 real teeth in his mouth literally. His excuse for this is that because his parents never made him brush his teeth so as an adult he never brushed his teeth. He effectively have false teeth and spent an exorbitant sum of money having fake teeth put in. Him never brushing his teeth cost him his oral health and finances in adulthood all because his parents never followed up teaching him to brush his teeth.

 

Just something to consider.

[stigskog]

This is a slippery slope as far as development goes. There is a difference between forcing a child to do something and trying to teach a child habits that will serve them well in life later. The thing about the bath I think does absolutely no harm to him at all. It's not like taking a bath to him is like wading through a pool of acid where his skin melts off. It reinforces the importance of maintaining personal hygiene which can have severe negative effects in adulthood if it's not practiced. There are other health implications as well that directly impacts the individual as a result of not bathing regularly.

I'm not sure whether you mean that forcing a child in to the bath teaches him the importance of having a bath, or if you mean it is important to explain to them how important it is to be clean and to bathe regularly. Could you clarify this please ? 

I can only imagine that in adulthood that your son refuses to take baths because there were no toy cars or because he can't figure out you can change the temperature of the water.

Again, excuse me if I am not understanding you very well.. are you making the point that of course he wont refuse to bath as an adult.. because obviously toy cars wont be an issue then and figuring out how to change the bath temperature is not tricky... or are you saying that he may  

For example, one of my friends is in his 30's has about only 3 real teeth in his mouth literally. His excuse for this is that because his parents never made him brush his teeth so as an adult he never brushed his teeth. He effectively have false teeth and spent an exorbitant sum of money having fake teeth put in. Him never brushing his teeth cost him his oral health and finances in adulthood all because his parents never followed up teaching him to brush his teeth. Just something to consider.

Again, do you mean teaching or forcing ?Thanks for clarifying, if anyone else reads this, did the same questions come up for you ?

[ribuck]

Anyway, swimming 4 times in 2 weeks is plenty to keep a young child clean, provided they also wash their hands regularly. It's only after reaching puberty that we benefit from wasking more often than that.