How A Man's Heart is Murdered...

[Kevin Beal]

 

You (Stef) asked if it is not the case that I (the viewer) was treated with cold indifference, isolation and never asked with real curiosity what my own internal life was like, my dreams, what I like and don't like about things etc.

 

I'm not actually an exception. This was definitely the case for me and reflecting on it actually triggers powerful feelings of rage and sadness. I think, like you suggested, that this is near universal and that you and I are not at all unique in that way.

 

I'm really just posting this to bring more attention to it and possibly getting other people's thoughts on it. I've shared it in social media and sent it to a friend, but I think it's worthy of special consideration, even within this community which already mostly shares the values presented in the video.

 

One part that was especially powerful an idea for me was in how you don't really know just how much the indifference and isolation effects you until you've had a truly loving relationship with someone. As I have never been in love, I wonder how much I'm not getting. I've done a lot of work with isolation, felt some pretty awful, agonizing experiences on the couch, got some good moral clarity and still, I get it's a deeper well than I even know. The timing of the video is actually pretty serendipitous in that way.

 

Did anyone else listen and get a profound sense of something missing?

[Mike Fleming]

I'm same.  I never felt like my feelings were cared about.  I had a mother who pretended to care, but really, all she cared about was how she felt.  In fact, numerous times when I was a child I was told by my father ( a damaged boy himself) that my mother's feelings were all important and by extension though not openly said, mine were insignificant.  My parents had very little capability when it came to thinking for themselves, they were always eager to go along with what society as a whole wanted and I guess this is true of many parents which is why the brainwashing is so effective.  Traditions die hard.

 

I grew up quite cold towards women, even though rationally I knew I shouldn't be and never really understood why I was.  But it frustrated my ability to have good relationships with women for a long time.  Deep down, I always knew I had to fix things within me before I could truly love someone else.   

 

It's up to both sexes to do things and quite obviously Stef is doing his part), but I agree that women are the ones going along with this and perpetuating it for the most part.  

 

Incidentally I spent half of my youth in England and had English parents.  I too remember the war comics, Battle and so on.  I think this kind of thinking seems especially prevalent amongst the English.  When I came to Australia people seemed more laidback, but it didn't change the way my parents treated me.

[Wesley]

In another thread, I related how I had liked the film Equilibrium in my teens. I identified with it because in my "society" as a child I was not allowed to feel in the active sense of it being scolded and ridiculed as "sense offending".

 

Eventually, I wanted to feel and ended up learning and planning and seeking expert help to be able to rebel against my childhood society.

 

Just another sad vote in support of your thesis about boys who are not allowed to express feeling, wants, desires, or dreams.

[PatrickC]

Did anyone else listen and get a profound sense of something missing?

 

Hey Kevin, perhaps you could extrapolate on that feeling. I found the video deeply profound and seemingly mirrored some of my own recent thoughts on this topic. That said I did feel a sense of helplessness when it was suggested that women need to make those positive changes. That just seems insurmountable to me. At least at the moment.

 

Edited extra below

 

Actually it was interesting for me to note that I had watched a great play by Tennessee Williams last week called, The Glass Menagerie. The scene below kind of encapsulates the helplessness I described earlier rather well. What's also interesting is that I saw this play with a woman and I very deliberately avoided discussing this scene with her, even when I found it to be the most profound. An interesting point I have no doubt.

 

 

Sorry re-edited to get the embedding right.

[PatrickC]

 Anyone know how to delete a post? I seemed to have double posted.

[Kevin Beal]

Hey Kevin, perhaps you could extrapolate on that feeling [that something is profoundly missing]. 

Sure. I have a painful sense of longing that I experience on occasion. A longing for connection. I've become more social, accepting party invitations, making more of an effort to make conversation with people, turning the conversations I have to things I genuinely care about. People have commented that I've become much more outgoing in the last couple years, but that longing only ever gets stronger.

 

I feel a bit hesitant sharing that, in case it reveals too much about me. But I wonder if it's no projection at all, and most people also feel as I do. That I'm right when I look around and see everyone is in pain.

 

The darkest and most body shaking feelings I've had in therapy are around the issue of isolation and indifference. I almost don't see them as anything but two sides of the same coin.

 

The fact that my longing doesn't go away, and that the pain doesn't go away either, it makes me feel like something is missing. Like there's a big hole in my chest.

 

When I first started therapy, I would say to my therapist "I don't know what it is, but I know that something is terribly wrong". And that was this.

 

And thank you guys for the responses.

[meeri]

I feel a bit hesitant sharing that, in case it reveals too much about me. But I wonder if it's no projection at all, and most people also feel as I do. That I'm right when I look around and see everyone is in pain.

 

The darkest and most body shaking feelings I've had in therapy are around the issue of isolation and indifference. I almost don't see them as anything but two sides of the same coin.

 

The fact that my longing doesn't go away, and that the pain doesn't go away either, it makes me feel like something is missing. Like there's a big hole in my chest.

Kevin, thank you for sharing and I totally get this feeling. I feel this issue of indifference and isolation is pretty fundamental.

 

 

I wanted to share my thoughts on the video.

 

I had very strong feelings listening to it. I initially felt a lot of defences- anxiety, confusion, fogging..and actually had to listen for a second time. I think it was partly because I'm currently working through my own isolation and terrible lack of interest from my family, interest that I only got when irritating them. And partly because it made me feel the male disposability in my family and my own capacity to contribute to it.

 

It is certainly true that girls showing emotion is more tolerated. But I feel that toleration comes from the belief that girls are innately more emotional, rather than from genuine interest in their inner lives. I may of course, be an exception but I never got any curiosity from my family about my loves, hates, motivations and feelings. So I don't think girls' inner lives get a lot more interest than boys'.

 

Having said that, girls grow up knowing that they will be allowed to have an inner life when they're older.

 

In my family, the only person who's feelings and needs really mattered was my mother. So perhaps girls grow up believing that when they're mothers, their partner and children are there to provide for her needs, to give her love and resources. A female, even if ignored and isolated as a child, can reverse that role as an adult, giving her a sense of hope.

 

At the same time boys grow up believing they will never be able to do that, they will always be the provider without getting any care back, and I feel there is terrible hopelessness and loneliness in that.

[PatrickC]

Kevin thanks for sharing your innermost thoughts on this. It's not without some considerable bravery to do so, regardless of it being just a forum. Showing vulnerability with people you care for can be quite scary, even if that's just meeting and engaging with folk. Our cold manly tombs can seem like a solace by comparison. Certainly that tomb protected us in the past, but I have a strong desire to escape it now.

 

Your openness to my question kind of showed me that it's essential for one to express their needs and feelings with confidence and grace. If others scoff at us, then we just move along having kicked them to the curb.

 

Hi Meeri, it was interesting and refreshing to hear this from a female perspective. I don't doubt that little girls feelings and desires are often ignored and sidelined in the same way. Sorry to hear that happened to you.

[In the belly of the beast]

Such powerful videos.  I can most definitely relate to it.

 

Once the playdate phase of my childhood ended, I experienced near complete social isolation from my peers.  Video games and science fiction anthologies were my primary means of escape.  I am genuinely hard pressed to think of any occassions in which either one of my parents, or any member of my extended family, ever sat down with me and persistently inquired about this long lasting social isolation.  Certainly no teacher or friend of the family ever had this much needed dialogue with me either.  My parents put me on at least two psychotropic medications when I began to have terrible anxiety, obsessive complusive behaviours, insomnia, and trouble focusing in school following the death of a grandparent to whom I was (seemingly) very attached, at the age of 6.  I do not remember anyone ever doing a more than superficial inquiry into the causes of these symptoms.

 

There were no friendships until the college years, and no relationships of any kind until graduate school, the latter of which were always initiated via online dating.  I was never consciously upset when breaking up with any of my past girlfriends, though I suspect this was simply very deep repression of my feelings, as well as severely impaired ability to attach and empathize.

 

Things are slowly getting better now, with Freedomain Radio, therapy, and other self work.  I have recently come to the understanding that I am not defective.  Some anger and resentment with my parents still remains, although I am trying to come to terms with it in a constructive and mature manner.  So far, that has proved somewhat elusive.  Generalized problems with trust/feelings of social paranoia are also beginning to dampen, though this last problematic aspect of my personality has only just begun to come down in measurable ways.

Actually it was interesting for me to note that I had watched a great play by Tennessee Williams last week called, The Glass Menagerie. The scene below kind of encapsulates the helplessness I described earlier rather well. What's also interesting is that I saw this play with a woman and I very deliberately avoided discussing this scene with her, even when I found it to be the most profound. An interesting point I have no doubt.

 

 

Sorry re-edited to get the embedding right.

 

The suffocation, along with the deeply repressed anger finally attempting to push aside this intolerable, soul-sapping atmosphere, are immediately obvious.  This suffocation, for so many (most?) of us, is something that is so pervasive and all encompassing that we don't even notice it after a while.

 

What do you think would have been this woman's reaction if you had calmly aired your thoughts on this scene?

[PatrickC]

The suffocation, along with the deeply repressed anger finally attempting to push aside this intolerable, soul-sapping atmosphere, are immediately obvious.  This suffocation, for so many (most?) of us, is something that is so pervasive and all encompassing that we don't even notice it after a while.

 

What do you think would have been this woman's reaction if you had calmly aired your thoughts on this scene?

 

That's a good question. Well I imagine a number of responses, which I've had over the years. 'His mother was only frustrated with his dreaming for his own future's sake', 'Come on now, look how he destroyed his sisters glass figurine' or 'Since when did you get soppy about your needs being met'. This with a mixture of smirking and looks of astonishment.Of course, that's all in my head as a possibility, it doesn't mean that she would have reacted that way. But of course I didn't give her the opportunity to say otherwise.

[Lians]

This is definitely one of Stef's best videos. I'm not an exception to what he's talking about either. I can relate to the sadness and anger you experienced while listening to this podcast. Ironically, just before I listened to it, someone posted a video in the chat that got me a little angry:

 

 

I've been quite sensitive to things like that ever since girlwriteswhat illuminated the disposability that was instilled in me. It's frightening to see how these ideas are so deeply embedded in our culture. I think most people, especially women, instinctively understand how dangerous men can be. That's why they have to put us down and belittle us in times of almost universal hypocrisy and evil. Didn't Mao use China's youth, particularly the boys, to put a smoking crater in the country's history?

 

On a side note, an older podcast complements this one quite well:

 

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_2081_which_war_are_you_bred_for.mp3

[Mike Fleming]

 

In my family, the only person who's feelings and needs really mattered was my mother. So perhaps girls grow up believing that when they're mothers, their partner and children are there to provide for her needs, to give her love and resources. A female, even if ignored and isolated as a child, can reverse that role as an adult, giving her a sense of hope.

 

At the same time boys grow up believing they will never be able to do that, they will always be the provider without getting any care back, and I feel there is terrible hopelessness and loneliness in that.

 

That was the same in my family.  Mother's feelings were all important, but that's just narcissism.  My mother is that way because she wasn't loved as a child and basically has never been loved.  She is starving for affection, but unable to truly give any in return.  

 

A great blog about narcissistic mothers is

 

http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com.au/2008/06/best-of-posts-on-narcissists-suck.html

 

I believe feminism is just basically the outgrowth and excuse for this widespread narcissistic female behaviour in society.

 

Saying that a female can reverse that role as an adult?  Maybe I'm reading it wrong but to me that just says they can then repeat the pattern of their childhood.  Now they get to be the mother who's feelings are all that matter.  I would suggest that it takes a lot of self-work for that not to happen and for the pattern not to repeat.  Especially in a culture which encourages and excuses such bad behaviour.

[PatrickC]

I believe feminism is just basically the outgrowth and excuse for this widespread narcissistic female behaviour in society.

 

Saying that a female can reverse that role as an adult?  Maybe I'm reading it wrong but to me that just says they can then repeat the pattern of their childhood.  Now they get to be the mother who's feelings are all that matter.  I would suggest that it takes a lot of self-work for that not to happen and for the pattern not to repeat.  Especially in a culture which encourages and excuses such bad behaviour.

 

Interesting point Mike and aids a better understanding of my anxiety relating to women becoming the agents of change. Of course it's entirely possible that they can be, but the losses (I feel) will outweigh the truth for many of them. That said, this could easily be my own impression of course, since there are women seeking to improve the lives of men and boys, beyond egalitarianism. They just happen to be few and far between.

[meeri]

Saying that a female can reverse that role as an adult?  Maybe I'm reading it wrong but to me that just says they can then repeat the pattern of their childhood. 

Absolutely, that's how most people live their lives

[In the belly of the beast]

Interesting point Mike and aids a better understanding of my anxiety relating to women becoming the agents of change. Of course it's entirely possible that they can be, but the losses (I feel) will outweigh the truth for many of them. That said, this could easily be my own impression of course, since there are women seeking to improve the lives of men and boys, beyond egalitarianism. They just happen to be few and far between.

 

Men can of course be their own agents of change, but the task is made substantially harder when facing constant resistance from the women in their lives.  Although to be fair, most men embarking on this change also face resistance from most of the men in their lives.

 

I know that Stef has briefly commented on the skewed gender ratio of the voluntarist movement before, mentioning that there may be more powerful social pressures on women to conform and think in collectivist ways.  Has he ever commented at length on this?  This question still nags at me from time to time.  I've accepted the fact that a (straight) man's best bet is to find a woman with the potential to think rationally and act virtuously, then gently encourage those tendencies and see if she responds with curiosity.  It would still be nice to know why this is the case, beyond merely "women need more social support because they bear the children and are usually physically weaker", which is about the extent of my current understanding on this topic.

[Lians]

I know that Stef has briefly commented on the skewed gender ratio of the voluntarist movement before, mentioning that there may be more powerful social pressures on women to conform and think in collectivist ways.  Has he ever commented at length on this?  This question still nags at me from time to time.  I've accepted the fact that a (straight) man's best bet is to find a woman with the potential to think rationally and act virtuously, then gently encourage those tendencies and see if she responds with curiosity.  It would still be nice to know why this is the case, beyond merely "women need more social support because they bear the children and are usually physically weaker", which is about the extent of my current understanding on this topic.

 

I've listened to a podcasts in which Stef talks about the lack of women in the libertarian movement. His arguments came down to women not being particularly interested in dry abstractions (politics, economics and so forth). I'll link to the podcast if I remember the name. I've never found that to be the case. In my experience, women are perfectly capable of handling all these abstractions. The left is full of women and they seem to relish in all the abstract ideas. Karen Straughan (girlwriteswhat) pointed out that the libertarian movement is male dominated because the state serves most women quite well. Why would they oppose it? If I remember correctly, she makes the case in this video (or in one of Stef's interviews with her):

 

[PatrickC]

Yes, this tends be my view too Lians. Women are perfectly capable of abstractions and it would be pompous to think otherwise. After all sociology is swimming with women making abstract claims about nurturing society. The cultural problem In my opinion (born out with some evidence), that it's just the rope that men are given to hang themselves (so to speak) is a lot shorter than the length given to women. This is a controversial view of course, because it's assumed by many women and importantly other men the complete opposite, that they are culturally disadvantaged by their gender.

 

However, I think we've (inc me) deviated from the OP's initial question somewhat. It might be better if we took it to a new thread perhaps.

[cherapple]

Instead of waiting for women to come to you and connect with you on the level of abstraction, why not approach women and attempt connect with them on the level of emotion? Show them curiosity and treat them like their emotions are rational. They've likely never had anyone do that before. It's no guaranty that they will accept their own emotions as rational, or that they will become interested in philosophy, but that's probably how you will find the ones who will. 

[Lians]

However, I think we've (inc me) deviated from the OP's initial question somewhat. It might be better if we took it to a new thread perhaps.

 

Good point.

[PatrickC]

I don't think anyone on this thread (or elsewhere), are waiting for women to connect with them first.

[Lians]

Instead of waiting for women to come to you and connect with you on the level of abstraction, why not approach women and attempt connect with them on the level of emotion? Show them curiosity and treat them like their emotions are rational. They've likely never had anyone do that before. It's no guaranty that they will accept their own emotions as rational, or that they will become interested in philosophy, but that's probably how you will find the ones who will. 

 

That's not the issue here. The podcast points out the reasons why men are, generally, not capable of doing the things you suggested. Apart from Stef and some other guys on this forum, I've never known a man who could truly connect with someone on an emotional level. What's worse, we tend to get attacked by women and other men if we ever try to do that. While I was growing up, the only time I've shared my honest experience (mind you, not even emotions) was with other male friends. It's happened a handful of times when I could hardly bear the things that were happening with me. We never spoke of these conversations ever again. It was a dirty secret. Conspiratorial even. It wasn't right... Why did we feel this way?

 

For the most part, I've been able to turn this around through work on self-knowledge. There's a lot more that needs to be done, but assigning proper responsibility, to me, marks the beginning of the healing process. This podcast gave me a good starting point.

[cherapple]

Stef talks about the lack of women in the libertarian movement. His arguments came down to women not being particularly interested in dry abstractions 

 

Sorry, I was responding to the above, which may have come from an emotional reaction in me. 

[In the belly of the beast]

Instead of waiting for women to come to you and connect with you on the level of abstraction, why not approach women and attempt connect with them on the level of emotion? Show them curiosity and treat them like their emotions are rational. They've likely never had anyone do that before. It's no guaranty that they will accept their own emotions as rational, or that they will become interested in philosophy, but that's probably how you will find the ones who will. 

 

Fair point about connecting on an emotional, rather than an exclusively abstract level.  This terrifies and frustrates me, given how much skill it takes to do this while bypassing people's defenses.  It seems like it is necessary to "mould" a companion for yourself, without that companion being aware that they are being "moulded" early in the process.

 

Lians raises an excellent point about men being attacked by nearly everyone for attempting to do this, in addition to all of the background cultural conditioning/propaganda against male expressivity.  Men are taught that it is usually weak, and therefore contemptible, to ever express any of our needs and preferences, outside of a few narrow areas such as recreation in "socially acceptable" areas (sports, hunting, etc.) or the desire to make money.

 

If this is still off-topic, I'm happy to make a new thread about emotionally connecting with potential partners/lovers and friends.  It just seems to naturally follow from the podcast's topics on emotional isolation and indifference towards men.

[cherapple]

The podcast points out the reasons why men are, generally, not capable of doing the things you suggested. Apart from Stef and some other guys on this forum, I've never known a man who could truly connect with someone on an emotional level. What's worse, we tend to get attacked by women and other men if we ever try to do that. While I was growing up, the only time I've shared my honest experience (mind you, not even emotions) was with other male friends. It's happened a handful of times when I could hardly bear the things that were happening with me. We never spoke of these conversations ever again. It was a dirty secret. Conspiratorial even. It wasn't right... Why did we feel this way?

 

I haven't listened to the podcast, although it's been at the top of my want-to list, because it hadn't shown up on my podcatcher. It's there now, so I'll listen before commenting further. 

[PatrickC]

If this is still off-topic, I'm happy to make a new thread about emotionally connecting with potential partners/lovers and friends.  It just seems to naturally follow from the podcast's topics on emotional isolation and indifference towards men.

 

Go for it. I think it would be a great topic to discuss in a separate thread.

[Pepin]

I feel strange and left out of right field because I didn't have much of a reaction to the podcast. There really isn't anything I disagree with in the video, but I don't feel anything different. I wonder why.

[Kevin Beal]

It all seems relevant and interesting to me. I don't think it's necessary to start a new thread unless you want to. There's a lot packed into this one podcast.

 

I think that showing people that their emotions are rational is a great idea and I try to do that in my own life. I do it primarily with men though as it seems to me as if this is a bigger problem for men than it is for women.

 

I've got a little hypocritical thing going on in my head because I often say "what about the menz?" and yet I feel annoyed when "what about women?" comes up.

 

Just speaking personally (so you can't deny it ), when I was a boy, I listened to years of problems that women had. They knew I wouldn't dismiss or attack them for it, and also that I didn't have good boundaries so they could talk for hours at a time.

 

The idea that men had rich inner lives, had their own insecurities and problems was nowhere on my radar until I started working on myself. It seems to me a novel idea, and maybe it's just me, but I just want to talk about men and their issues. I love the female input here, but I don't want to feel like I have to qualify my statements with "women have it bad too". And I feel slightly defensive when I bring up men's issues, anywhere.

 

It may be (and probably is) my own baggage, and please tell me if you agree. Because I don't know. It's rare to get this kind of feedback from people who are trustworthy.

 

Is it also the case for other men that they feel it's really difficult to bring up men's issues?

 

Is it difficult for women to bring up women's issues?

 

How do you feel when the opposite sex says: "what about (wo)men?"

 

Is it true or is it not true that boys generally receive more indifference?

 

Is it true or is it not true that (being that women are the primary caregivers) women are (more) socially responsible for the arrested development for the men?

 

Is it true or not that men have thicker walls around their capacity for vulnerability? And if so, doesn't that piss you off?

 

I think it's a horrible tragedy that boys face and it makes me incredibly angry. I grieve the boy I once was and all the boys I grew up with, and I feel contempt for the people that practiced such cold indifference, ultimately at everyone's expense.

[Lians]

I wanted to bring up the last quarter of the podcast. When Stef said, "Fuck you world," a strangely familiar feeling of anger arose within me. His comment on boys reaching around and destroying the future when they're denied attachment also resonated very strongly with me. Upon some introspection, I realized that much of my childhood existed in a duality between the desire to create and a dark, vengeful urge to smash everything into pieces. "If the world can't accommodate me then to hell with it all!" I used to be an angry cynic. I know where much of this comes from, but does anyone else have similar experiences? How common is this?

[Kevin Beal]

I wanted to bring up the last quarter of the podcast. When Stef said, "Fuck you world," a strangely familiar feeling of anger arose within me. His comment on boys reaching around and destroying the future when they're denied attachment also resonated very strongly with me. Upon some introspection, I realized that much of my childhood existed in a duality between the desire to create and a dark, vengeful urge to smash everything into pieces. "If the world can't accommodate me then to hell with it all!" I used to be an angry cynic. I know where much of this comes from, but does anyone else have similar experiences? How common is this?

I can only speak for myself, but I felt and feel contempt for society, I wanted and want vengeance and I have a very alive dark part of myself.

 

If you live in a world where everyone ignores your pain (or worse) and there are no beacons of virtue in your life, then how could you not feel enraged or despair?

 

Part of me sympathizes with mass murderers.

 

Stef actually makes a good case that you need to be aware of these parts of yourself in order to be moral and have empathy.

 

FDR468 - Seeing Through Darkness

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_468_Seeing_Through_Darkness.mp3

[PatrickC]

Great podcast Kevin... To Lians point, as an older chap I managed to navigate the angry cynic into a more dissociated state of compliance. Re-learning that has meant a few trips to the past and re-experiencing that deep resentment I had and often for reasonable reasons too.

[Mike Fleming]

Interesting point Mike and aids a better understanding of my anxiety relating to women becoming the agents of change. Of course it's entirely possible that they can be, but the losses (I feel) will outweigh the truth for many of them. That said, this could easily be my own impression of course, since there are women seeking to improve the lives of men and boys, beyond egalitarianism. They just happen to be few and far between.

 

I don't want to put women all in one basket.  I hate collectivising anyone.  I think though, that one of the problems women face in this regard is that they are just as propagandised as we men.  They are subject to the bad traditions being rammed down their throats also.   Many of them will never have even thought about these issues because they simply haven't come across them.  I think there is more incentive, in general, for men to seek out the truth because they have been mostly the ones on the receiving end of the bad effects.

 

Maybe we need to give women more credit.  I think many just need to be helped to understand the truths of society.   If a woman feels that it will help them understand their partner, and if understanding their partner is something they are interested in doing, I think they have the potential to come to these truths.  It's not true of all women of course, some are just too far gone.  Just as some men are.  But I think it is all to do with incentives at the end of the day.  If a man shows consideration towards his partner's thoughts and feelings, surely that gives her more incentive to do the same?  Love is a two-way street.

 

EDIT TO ADD;  I also think men need to talk more about these things with their partners and society in general.  Women out there need to see these ideas, so that they have a chance to think about them and talk about them.   Keeping silent about truths has always aided the propagation of bad ideas.

[PatrickC]

I don't want to put women all in one basket.  I hate collectivising anyone.  I think though, that one of the problems women face in this regard is that they are just as propagandised as we men.  They are subject to the bad traditions being rammed down their throats also.   Many of them will never have even thought about these issues because they simply haven't come across them.  I think there is more incentive, in general, for men to seek out the truth because they have been mostly the ones on the receiving end of the bad effects.

 

Maybe we need to give women more credit.  I think many just need to be helped to understand the truths of society.   If a woman feels that it will help them understand their partner, and if understanding their partner is something they are interested in doing, I think they have the potential to come to these truths.  It's not true of all women of course, some are just too far gone.  Just as some men are.  But I think it is all to do with incentives at the end of the day.  If a man shows consideration towards his partner's thoughts and feelings, surely that gives her more incentive to do the same?  Love is a two-way street.

 

EDIT TO ADD;  I also think men need to talk more about these things with their partners and society in general.  Women out there need to see these ideas, so that they have a chance to think about them and talk about them.   Keeping silent about truths has always aided the propagation of bad ideas.

 

With all due respect you basically knighted me in this post. No one including others have suggested women cannot experience similar.

 

Edit (after thought)

 

I do appreciate that this topic can raise certain anxieties, not least for men. It's almost scripted that men will defend women. It's something I've grown very conscious of in myself and always question now before I leap to a conclusion. These are cultural traits that we are discussing mainly, that seemingly favour women. It's important to distinguish the difference, otherwise men will just close down.

[meeri]

The idea that men had rich inner lives, had their own insecurities and problems was nowhere on my radar until I started working on myself. It seems to me a novel idea, and maybe it's just me, but I just want to talk about men and their issues. I love the female input here, but I don't want to feel like I have to qualify my statements with "women have it bad too".

That's a fair point and I agree, I don't think you should if it's irrelevant to the argument. I get annoyed by the mostly female-centred conversations in society too and definitely think there needs to be more intense focus on male-centred conversations to balance things out. 

But I'm not sure how we can really look at the two in isolation because a large part of men's inner lives is related women and vice versa. 

[Lians]

That's a fair point and I agree, I don't think you should if it's irrelevant to the argument. I get annoyed by the mostly female-centred conversations in society too and definitely think there needs to be more intense focus on male-centred conversations to balance things out. 

But I'm not sure how we can really look at the two in isolation because a large part of men's inner lives is related women and vice versa. 

 

I got a little angry when I read the text in bold. The anger was immediately followed by self-attack and anxiety about bringing this up. I found this very interesting and decided to mull it over while I was preparing my lunch. This definitely isn't the first time I've felt this way and I'm not sure why that is.

 

I also discovered a lot of bitterness and frustration. When Stef first brought up these issues and started inviting people like Karen Straughan and Warren Farrell to the show I felt invigorated. "Great! An issue that's being bugging me for a long time is finally on the table. Now I'll be able to look at the other side's perspective!" I got on the forum and started looking for ongoing discussions. I knew women with self-knowledge would be the best source of information and I wanted to get their feedback. Much to my surprise, there was nothing. A few threads that died quickly and that's about it. I fully admit that I may have missed such a discussion. However, in the few threads that were created I got this lingering sense of indifference and defensiveness. As if people were saying: "Yes, we get that there's a problem, but can we please move on and stop bringing this up?"

 

Take this thread for example. We all understand that it's impossible to have conversations about general problems without some degree of generalization, right? By now, we should all know that general statement don't say anything about specific cases until those cases are explicitly examined. Most of you are old-time members, I'm not saying anything new here. Having said that, why do you feel like you have to decorate your arguments with so many disclaimers? What are you afraid of? Every disclaimer makes our trenches deeper and it's not bringing us any closer. "Women in my childhood harmed me, but I understand not all women are like that." If the first part is true, why do you need the second one?

 

I've also noticed some comments about Stef being out to get people's girlfriends and women-bashing in the chat room and YouTube. Do you think this is true? More importantly, do you feel that it's true?

 

All this may be a projection on my end, but I still wanted to bring it up and get other people's feedback.

[meeri]

I've also noticed some comments about Stef being out to get people's girlfriends and women-bashing in the chat room and YouTube. Do you think this is true? More importantly, do you feel that it's true?

No, I don't think or feel this is true. I think my posts on other threads have reflected that.

 

I think the point I was trying to make was that I don't know how to have this conversation without reference to females. This may entirely be a projection on my part and I may be missing something important here.