Couple ethical questions that have been bugging me.

[strat]

Context: Dated an amazing, rational, ethical woman for a year. She is 27 and battles depression some times, I'm 23. Great relationship neither of us intentionally caused harm to the other [lying, theft, verbal/physical abuse, I never even raised my voice]. We both learned a lot about being rationally ethical and she taught me a ton about nutrition. Then she broke up with me partly because I hadn't gotten a job after months of 'passive searching' and mostly because she says she couldn't feel love like I do [i guess she's somewhat jaded about love from previous relationships, and I did not offer enough to overcome that]. I think the second reason is a valid excuse, maybe not the first since I am still in college and a part-time professional musician.

Anyway, she has not wanted to talk to me for a while but still thinks I am an amazingly ethical guy and wants to be friends eventually when she gets over the relationship. Nowadays [2 months later] she realized that she is a bit of a nympho and she has turned into a bit of a swinger, but does so perfectly honestly with all parties involved.

I feel a little bit jealous sometimes, but I also think I should be happy that she has found something that makes her happy.

Now to the ethical questions:
Should I be happy for her?   [i think yes, if I really love her and want what's best for her and makes her happy]

 

I can't seem to determine a rational way in which her sort of voluntary, honest polygamy is unethical.

So, is my jealousy just some remnant of socially constructed "religious" ethics that I need to get over?  

[i think yes as well]

[Wesley]

There is a bronze level podcast entitled Polyamory and History  that may be helpful.

 

So right off the bat there were a couple red flags for me.

 

---- Amazing and rational and all of the myth surrounding the relationship (may be true or not, but until proven, it is just a story)

 

However, there are a couple things that do not exactly fit this myth that I am hoping you could explain:

 

1. Battled depression. Was she in therapy? How did she battle it? I have found it is very hard (if not impossible) to be in a romantic dating relationship and be fully present to show love, care, reason, etc when one is depressed. So I am hoping you could fill me in on this.

 

2. Neither of us INTENTIONALLY caused harm to the other. Did you unintentionally cause harm? Maybe it was intentional, but not conscious? This makes me think of someone driving recklessly and causing an accident, but then saying they are not at fault because it wasn't intentional. We could debate the level of responsibility for unintentionally causing harm, but in short you are still the one responsible.

 

3. Broke up with you because she feels she cannot love. This also is a thing she should have been in therapy for and not in a romantic relationship.

 

4. She cannot feel love and has instead replaced it with swinging and "being a nympho" which seems like something she should be seeing a therapist for.

 

5. You are asking if you should be happy for her. To me, this looks like someone shooting up heroin to dull the pain of her past. You are saying "who would I be to stop her and try to get her help?" I am saying true love would be someone who would get her help, not who calls destructive behavior the definition of happiness.

 

6. Polygamy is not unethical. Just like shooting heroin is not unethical. Either action in light of the other points and her likely past do show that they are both personally destructive. This is not the same as unethical.

 

7. How did you get into a relationship with her and why are you not seeing the cries for help and support? I would examine you own past in light of this.

 

 

I am sorry if some of these were rather direct or if my thoughts have a perfectly logical explanation that I have not realized yet. I am very interested as to what you think of all of this.

[strat]

Among the somewhat limited exposure to human beings, she is easily the most rational woman I know, and tries decently hard to be ethical. I am a physics/philosophy student that breezed through undergrad and I feel as though she is much smarter than I am, although I think I take more care and attention to being ethical [just my philosophical nature, in part thanks to Stefan].

 

 

1. Battled depression. Was she in therapy?

She has been in therapy, however her current job/healthcare forbids her from seeing a therapist. She does however practice many of the same coping methods when she starts to feel symptoms, good sleep, exercise, good nutrition, gardening, and some written exercises are among the most effective for her.

 

2. Neither of us INTENTIONALLY caused harm to the other.

For example in the beginning of the relationship I didn't know it was rude to be on my laptop, while she was cooking something. She taught me that it's good to help someone until the job is done. In my own family experience it was more of a work share, ie: you cook dinner, I'll do the dishes. Small things like that are about the extent to the conflict we had.

 

3. Broke up with you because she feels she cannot love.

She did not know at the beginning of the relationship that this was the case, and when she did find out, she ended it.

 

4. She cannot feel love and has instead replaced it with swinging and "being a nympho" which seems like something she should be seeing a therapist for.

 

She was always a Nymphomaniac, but now that she doesn't want a romantic relationship she still has to satisfy her sexual needs.

5. You are asking if you should be happy for her. To me, this looks like someone shooting up heroin to dull the pain of her past. You are saying "who would I be to stop her and try to get her help?" I am saying true love would be someone who would get her help, not who calls destructive behavior the definition of happiness.
 

I don't see it as obviously destructive. She is not hurting anyone or being unethical at all. I guess my question to you is why is polygamy destructive?
 

6. Polygamy is not unethical. Just like shooting heroin is not unethical. Either action in light of the other points and her likely past do show that they are both personally destructive. This is not the same as unethical.

 

By unethical I also mean unethical to one's self, or self-destructive. I could just be missing something obvious but I don't see how it is self-destructive though.

 

7. How did you get into a relationship with her and why are you not seeing the cries for help and support? I would examine you own past in light of this.
 

I think she managed much of her depression very well. I do not know more than she does about dealing with it, I did offer her emotional support and give her her favorite chocolate though.





You didn't answer the last question: is my jealousy just some remnant of socially constructed "religious" ethics that I need to get over? 
I'm curious as to what you have to say about that.

[ProfessionalTeabagger]

I'm not surprised you feel jealous. A woman you love has broken up with you and within a few months or weeks is living a promiscuous lifestyle. She is expressing a preference for meaningless sex over a relationship with you. Then she expresses a desire for future friendship in the full knowledge that you love her and what she's doing will most likely be extremely hurtful. You should be more than a "bit" jealous. It must be very painful for you. Your feelings of jealousy are perfectly valid. She is giving something away recklessly that she used to give exclusively to you; this is before you've even had time to process it and adjust. 

I'M wondering about the phrase "happy for her". What does it really mean to be happy for someone? In your post you mention nothing about your own happiness. It's as if it's secondary or even irrelevant. Why must you be happy for her? I think you need to ask, does her behavior make you happy? It seems obvious it doesn't. It also seems pretty obvious to me that you are being the "nice guy". I suspect a woman who becomes a nympho has some issues she needs to explore and such women are not attracted to the nice guy. 

[Wesley]

I was a bit irritated by your reply, so that may color my post a little.

 

1. I have no idea what job/ healthcare would ever forbid therapy... That would be highly disconcerting to me and is very unlikely to be true. Hopefully someone can verify whether this is possible or not.

 

Regardless, for depression, she should still see a therapist even if she needs to change jobs or do it in secret. If she is depressed, then she probably should not have been in a relationship. It does not change my concerns and sounds like an excuse/ fogging by her rather than the truth about the situation.

 

2. Conflict is distinct from harm. Conflict can be very good and growth inducing for a relationship. Do you have an example of harm that occurred? To me this feels like it could be veiled minimization of some actual harm that could have occurred by conflating it with innocuous conflict.

 

3. She did know. I can call bull on this one. Inability to feel love is something you should go to a therapist for. She knows a lot about herself even if she does not wish to consciously face it.

 

4.This is not "She doesn't want a romantic relationship" this is "she cannot feel love and is depressed and is replacing true human intimacy with the drug of sexual promiscuity." There is a bit of a difference and you are fogging me and yourself by using the other terminology.

 

5. It is possible that it is not in itself. However, if you are battling depression, just broke up a long term relationship because you can't feel love, and then start swinging to attempt self-medication is almost guaranteed to be self-destructive.

 

6. See above

 

7. You knew she was depressed. You know everything there is to know about someone within a couple minutes, let alone a long-term dating relationship.

 

The chocolate comment angered me a bit and proves you have a block in this area. She tells you she is horribly depressed and she can't feel love so you bring her the band-aid of chocolate?

 

Really...?

 

Help her get the help she needs... Let her experience her true emotions with you. This smells of "you being sad makes me uncomfortable, so take this drug of chocolate and don't be sad anymore."

 

8. (The question I didn't answer)

I think if you understood what I was saying you would not be asking this. I would recommend you re-read my posts.

[Hannibal]

The thought of only ever sleeping with one woman for the rest of my life is honestly an unimaginable horror to me. It;s one of the things I enjoy most (not that I do it often - it's the freedom, should I choose to, that I love).

 

If it's not your thing then that's fine - everyone likes different things, but it's definitely not unethical to live that way.

 

I would feel a little jealous, but that's fine. Our emotions help us but they shouldn;t rule us. Our rational mind's should be the final arbiters.

 

If there are other, unhealthy, reasons for her lifestyle choice then they might be valid concerns - but they are besides the point when it comes to ethics.

 

 

My favourite part of Orwell's 1984 is the fact that the more men his lover has slept with the more he loves her for going against the grain  I personally think that many people are uptight about it because they are insecure. For others it's just not to their taste. But if more people valued themselves properly and weren't so insecure, i think it would be much more common (it already is common - it's just that its called 'cheating').

[PatrickC]

Take it from an old guy. Any person you have expressed deep feelings for (love), that then rejects those feelings, but still expects to be served by the most intimate and precious gift you offer them. yourself. Is not worthy of that kind of gift. Trying to avoid the pain of loss by imagining you might be the one that is lacking reason, will only lead you into much more pain and loss. Don't misplace sorrow for melancholy.

 

You're still young enough, so I suggest analyzing all your past female relationships and look for the common themes. Believe me when I tell you, what you describe is a horror show for ones heart.

[Guest - Josh -]

People who enjoy a polyamorous lifestyle are just not compatible with people who do not. There's no way to get around it really. A person who can only imagine loving one person at a time does not need to be with someone who can't. For the monogamous, it's not a fair compromise for a polyamorous person to say "you can see other people too" and call it a deal. 

 

This isn't just a case of a bisexual person hooking up with a straight or gay person. If you're bi or not, then you can still commit to one partner even if you may find others attractive; but if you're polyamorous, you can't turn that off and pretend to be monogamous.

[strat]

Teabagger:
" In your post you mention nothing about your own happiness."

I was pretty sad the first week or two, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought it was for the best. 
I don't need to date her to be happy. I am already fairly happy now, and when I say 'happy for her' I mean should I 

be happy that she is feeling better without me. Sort of like if you love someone let them free.

" It seems obvious it doesn't. It also seems pretty obvious to me that you are being the "nice guy"."

 

I do get some amount of joy from the fact that she is happier. I have to be as ethical as I can, and by that I mean am I ethically required to agree and support her and say that it is good that she is now without me and happier because of it?

 

She is not demanding my support, in fact she thinks I am perfectly justified to never speak to her again, although she doesn't want that, and nor do I.

She has taught me so much, and improved my life in many ways, [quit smoking, stopped eating frozen crap, started eating fresh veggies and balanced diet, tried to offer help more often] in addition to my already constant honesty and other ethical dedications.

 

 

 

 

 

Wesley:

I am sorry I angered you, I'm just trying to be honest.

1. She has very low income but doesn't qualify for government sponsored offerings.

 

2. By that definition, I can't recall any harm that occurred. I am admittingly an extremely laid back guy that is hard to offend. She admitted to me that I treated her perfectly. The things that were particularly annoying to her, but not obviously unethical is what I mean by 'unintentional harm', which I tried to avoid after she told me about them and convinced they are indeed things that were bad remnants of my upbringing.

3. Perhaps you are right about that, but I don't have any reason to think she is lying. Or maybe she thought it would go away with time, but that's just speculation.

 

4. You are right, she doesn't want a relationship because she can't feel love. 

 

5. I can see that being the case. Is it unhealthy to be a nymphomaniac?

 

6. 

 

7. I just know that chocolate makes her feel better, that might not be healthy either, but then again, I know very little about cognitive disabilities. I don't think I would call her 'horribly depressed'. It's not as if she can't get out of bed and is watching TV all day. She reads, works and stays active, but sometimes she feels a little down. Again I'm not an expert, but to me it seems mild. It's something that I wanted to hep her get over, and I wish I would have tried harder to learn about coping methods at the time.

 

8. Read it again can't determine.

[ProfessionalTeabagger]

I am also irritated by you now. You did not say you are happier because she is feeling better without you. You asked if you should be happy because she's found something that makes her happy. Those are two different things. She can feel better without you without having casual sex with lots and lots of people.

If you only came here to have that one question answered then , No, promiscuity is not unethical, it's only unhealthy in many cases. 

[strat]

 "You did not say you are happier because she is feeling better without you."

Sorry I wasn't clear. When she told me that she didn't regret breaking up with me a couple days ago, I felt relief, and I felt happy personally. although I felt a little bit jealous when she said she was a swinger. I imagine in enough time I won't feel jealous, like I don't feel jealous about my other ex's as time went on. 

"No, promiscuity is not unethical, it's only unhealthy in many cases."

 

Thank you, I was wondering if she is being unethical for being a swinger [after much thought I suspected no]. I can also see now how it could be harmful as a rebound, or feeding a potentially harmful nympho condition.





The thing about her is that i don't really want to start the relationship back up at this point. I still want to be her friend because she is a really ethical person, and extremely intelligent. But, she still has to work through her problems. I need to learn a lot as well to become more mature. Even if she makes huge progress on her depression, since she could now be a swinger and I am very much monogamous I don't think that relationship would even work.

[strat]

Talked to her today.Turns out that she has felt great since the breakup and not depressed at all. She doesn't want to talk to me because she wants me to get over her before we start a friendship. I have no reason to believe she is being dishonest.I am happy that she is doing better, and I think she is right about giving my heart some time to distance itself from her. We'll see how things are in 2014.

[wdiaz03]

Talked to her today.Turns out that she has felt great since the breakup and not depressed at all. She doesn't want to talk to me because she wants me to get over her before we start a friendship. I have no reason to believe she is being dishonest.I am happy that she is doing better, and I think she is right about giving my heart some time to distance itself from her. We'll see how things are in 2014.

 

Best of luck,

 

I'll only add that some people like financial stability more than others. You mention passive job searching and part time musician. I don't know what your future earning potential would be but some people look at that in a relationship. If I were a woman I would not like to have a guy sitting at home all day playing music etc. Again I'm not saying that that is you or that you have no potential. 

But it might be worth to look at your future earning potential and see if that is a factor.