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Self-Reliance

Mishelle

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PatrickC Newbie

PatrickC

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I like the idea of self reliance, when it comes to food and shelter, but preferably amongst a community of quality friends and family I suppose. Where we provide our own individual skills to that mix. However, I think I'm a long way from that ideal though, without involving myself with folk with some very strange ideas elsewhere. :D

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Mishelle Newbie

Mishelle

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Ideally we would not be alone here, that's just it.  Not sure what you meant by " with some very strange ideas elsewhere" , but shoot, I'll admit while I write that I'm smiling!

If you build it, they will come.  And if they don't those many pecks of pickled peppers will go to the pigs! :woot:

oh la vache!!

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Mishelle Newbie

Mishelle

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ah, yes, I do remember some of that from our first discussion!

So it's the mysticism in particular? Or the belief that if we wish it so it will be?  Or that if everyone would just stop shoveling bad karma on government and let them do their job all would be hunky-dunky?  Or you just don't like singing kumbaya around the fire pit roasting weenies (or maybe that's tofu-kale burgers these days?!)?

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PatrickC Newbie

PatrickC

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lol, I certainly have no problem with singing kumbaya as a lullaby to children, although I might just change some of the wording to be less religious perhaps ;)  The hippie part is the least offensive part for me at least. No, it's mainly the politics, the idea that communities should just exist in response to some ideal about people just 'getting along'. I think those communities or groups that thrive are the ones that share a mutual exchange with each other, through family or work.Sharing values of course would be primary, but the mutuality would be like the glue that held them together.

 

This is just my opinion of course and yet to be put to the test. But for me I have seen communes come and go based on some rather flimsy (albeit rather nice) ideas, that just weren't practical. There has to be an element of fair exchange and mutual value for those communities to thrive I think.

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Mishelle Newbie

Mishelle

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This makes total sense to me xelent!  it's hard though to trust someone with work in such an intimate setting without having a worldview and vision beyond both work and family.  This is where I often get stopped.  Just getting along does not work at all, conflict fosters evolution :)  Which brings us to the next problem that without self-knowledge conflict becomes aggressive and defensive, instead of generative, and this is one of the very good things i've learned from limited experience with a new age community.  I did a bit of research on communes and polygamy and the "next generation" viewpoint--children in these situations generally did not have a great experience and felt a strong push-back to traditional values.  Now I don't know what that means and the research was pretty superficial, but it did seem it was practicality that was lost.  Mutual value as you say is the key, but that opens a bigger conversation  :happy:

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PatrickC Newbie

PatrickC

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Yea, I think it's just that people have to offer more than just a shared world view. In my opinion collectivist (mainly leftist) ideas are normally quite selfish, despite them being perceived as noble ideals, which is what creates the the conflict. A shared mutuality not only includes shared values, but also real practical value. I think it's probably possible, but like you say requires a deeper knowledge of the self.

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CrazyCanuck Newbie

CrazyCanuck

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“They’re corrupt as all hell, but they’re not fools.” Stefan Molyneux on Obamacare, “People make crappy choices about their health.”

I’d say that’s not the whole story Stef.  Rather it’s almost impossible for people to make good choices about their health when they’re drowning in misinformation, propagandized “experts” and constant change.  Like disempowered children they do whatever the doctor tells them, which is to take the latest drug cocktail.  Just ask whistleblower Gwen Olson, author ofConfessions of an Rx Drug-pusher, who says, ”There’s no such thing as a safe drug.”

 

 

 

Don't worry kids you can eat anything you want as long you take medicine and  watch television.   :blink:

 

You know it's more of the lifestlye of Americans not the just the diet.  Average American watches at least 4 hours of television a day. Sorry but that's including youtube.  Even when diet was changed to a healthy diet, a person watching televison has health problems.  For every hour of television watched on the average you lose 20 minutes of your life.   Honestly I don't think it's lack of exercise because reading for long durations doesn't have that kind effect on health.

 

People exercise less and less even people who go to the gym.  I used to exercise a lot now I just do about at least 30 minutes daily btw I used to exercise 4 hours a day.  There's more I can talk about however I don't want to bore people to tears as I ramble on and on.  

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Lians Newbie

Lians

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I read the last two entries of your blog, Mishelle. What passionate and inspired writing! I fully agree that we won't see much change until art gets behind reason to help propel it forward. What feedback did you get from your non-philosophical readers?

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Mishelle Newbie

Mishelle

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Hi Lians thanks so much for reading!  What a lovely reflection, I so appreciate it!

I got on this kick of art from something I heard Stef saying, I don't remember where now.  It was something about art having always been co-opted by the State.  It was like one of those DUH-AH-HA! moments :D

With non-philosophical readers it's always an emotional argument, so I try to provoke that actually.  I think it's still so very new to people to even consider the way we've been propagandized.  The older one is, I think, the harder it gets to see it.  I don't get a lot of feedback, but one 'elderly' man wrote quite positively and agreed about the New Age feminism stuff and wrote a quite touching account of his recent heartache because of it--to me this is a fine success for a blog post!

Do you write much, a blog or something--I've seen you give good thoughts on the boards?!

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Lians Newbie

Lians

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Ah, yes! I remember him saying that. It really is quite a revelation, especially if you've spent some time in the arts.

 

I reckon one heart opened is a perfectly fine starting point! Consider switching to your own web hosting if your blog becomes more popular. I wouldn't have found your articles if it wasn't for this thread. If you plan to continue writing about feminism you should definitely consider advertising your blog in some of the men's rights activist spaces on the web. It would be a shame to let the minutiae of dodgy reviews and economics articles drown your quality content.

 

I'm not much of a writer myself, and I don't keep a blog. All the writing I do is either in my journal or here on the board. I'm certainly open to the possibility of turning some of my journal entries into a blog, but there's plenty I need to explore until then.

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Mishelle Newbie

Mishelle

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Lians, I really appreciate this feedback!  I certainly didn't open his heart, but I did make him feel he could confide in me, and that was what felt right.

I used to really go after markets when I was starting out.  The beauty of this blog for me is that it's really mine--I write what I want how I want with little consideration for audience which feels gloriously authentic, but which I could never do of course outside of journaling and which, if I had not secured "a room of one's own" as Virginia Wolf wrote, I would not have the liberty to do.  It's a gift really, to throw out there whatever I feel, for better or worse!

Still, I really understand that to have an impact I need to consider where I might easily fit and squeeze myself in, so you've really given me some things to consider!

Here's to loads of exploration, dear!

:D

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dsayers Newbie

dsayers

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Some food for thought (pun intended).

 

If I want a burger with all the fixings, I can go to the local McDonald's and pick one up in less time than it would take me to get out the grill and such. The latter requiring the forethought of picking up all the elements ahead of time. To grow and make all of which would be even more inefficient.

 

Now I'm not saying that the burgers in question would be comparable, or even that eating burgers is a worthwhile pursuit. It does seem however that total self-reliance is unattainable in today's world. I mean, who would want a world without internet access to the sum of human knowledge to save a few bucks and/or be able to achieve total self-reliance?

 

I'm not trying to discourage your thoughts or you sharing them. I am fascinated with the possibilities myself. Plus there's certainly value in like minds exchanging ideas. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on self-reliance not necessarily being "good" and interdependence not being "bad."

 

In fact, I have made the case for our interdependence as proof of peace as the default. Going back to my original example, it seems far more efficient (and environmentally friendly) for McD's to serve burgers to 100 people than it would be for 100 people to get out their grills. Which would be more efficient than people getting out their own grills AND raising the cows, mustard, etc for themselves.

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PatrickC Newbie

PatrickC

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It's interesting, as a girlfriend of mine that joins me on a weekly Life drawing exercise, suggested I might start painting again with a view to exhibiting and selling my work. Instead, this week I started to produce some digital art with photography and scanning. Mainly because painting is so messy and I don't have the room to do it in. Nothing worse than the smell of turpentine in your own bedroom.So I look forward to presenting them here first. A bit anxious at putting it out there, as it's been almost 15 years since I did any serious art work. But I figure it will just motivate me more and be more self critical. if I let people know.

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Mishelle Newbie

Mishelle

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Hi dsayers,

 

Thanks for your food for thought, I appreciate it!  I will read your piece, but this is just as an initial reply for now on the topic.

 

Self-reliance for me is a first step to community reliance and a way to unplug from the matrix.  We are going for food, water, energy independence as a testament to how easy it can be with modern technologies.  We aren't there yet and it's not exactly easy!  But as the hold on the grid gets tougher and more kinds of energy technology become available more cheaply, it's bound to get much easier.  It is INCREDIBLY satisfying, the most satisfying work I've ever done.

 

It is not efficient, though with a couple families out here working with us someday, maybe it could be.  I don't give a hoot about efficiency, frankly.  What I care about is living in alignment with natural systems.  McDonalds may look efficient, but you are not looking at all the hidden costs.  First of all, health:  This is not real food--leave your burger out for 6 months on the counter and you will see it doesn't even spoil.  This comes back to haunt the whole society in obscene health care costs.  The transportation costs are off-set, and the food production costs as well, by indirect and direct government subsidies.

 

The health of the individual and the planet requires us to actively participate in our own survival, not just hand it over to government and corporation.  The biggest impetus for me to do this work is so that future generations don't loose these essential skills and this necessary level of independence.

 

More soon . . .

xelent I am excited to see your work and so glad you are back to feeding your creative self!!

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dsayers Newbie

dsayers

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One thing you said in the other thread flipped a switch inside of me: "self-reliance and interdependence are not mutually exclusive". My apologies for not realizing that sooner. My father is a very controlling person and didn't take kindly to an intelligent son, so the bulk of the abuse leveled upon me damaged me in a way that I tend to see things as black and white, seeking out simplistic answers.

I don't give a hoot about efficiency, frankly.

Well, you do, right? I mean, you're not communicating with me by way of technology that you developed, the machinery which facilitates it being made entirely by you. It's more efficient to do the things you enjoy and use the fruits of your labor to purchase those things rather than make them yourself. Saying this doesn't mean I don't recognize that you are free to forego some of that efficiency however you see fit for whatever reasons you see fit.You're right that the two are not mutually exclusive. That what you're doing and writing about makes for a good back up plan. Or if you pull it off on a larger scales, makes the "outside world" a back up plan and this redundancy improves your maneuverability and survival significantly, which is great!Sorry, I knew McDonald's wasn't the best example. I was just trying to make a simplified point. Perhaps a better approach would've been to mention the work of Norman Borlaug. He's helped disseminate technology for the purpose of amplifying food yield, to the benefit of the human race. By the by, I classify him and Stefan Molyneux as the two best friends the human race has ever had.My point being that if too many people withdrew from large scale food production, wouldn't this lead to less efficient food production and in turn more starvation? I don't know. As you point out, they're not mutually exclusive so it's not like people aiming for increased self-sufficiency aren't going to continue to patronize larger-scale production. I'd just caution against the notion of "efficiency, ptooey!"
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Mishelle Newbie

Mishelle

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Hi dsayers, thanks for your reply!

I really get how a controlling father can lead to black and white thinking--I deal with this myself too, so I appreciate our attempts to always see past it.

 

I have not heard of Norman Borlaug and will definitely check him out, thanks for the reference.  If you think he's as great a friend to folks as Stefan then I most definitely must get to know him!

 

And yes, as far as efficiency goes I should not be so flip.  More true would be to say: I know other people care about efficiency so I don't have to, yay!  Because it's true, we do need efficiency and we certainly need it in food production, and it's a preference/talent thing for me--it's not what I'm good at so I don't pay enough attention to it.  In fact, Hubby and I are both big DIYers, at a great cost to efficiency, simply because we like it.  It's a great sense of satisfaction for me to go into the garden and collect my lunch that I grew.  It's a great sense of satisfaction for him to build a deck all alone though it makes everything more challenging.  Of course I recognize "alone" is something of a misnomer, since we did not invent or make the tools, we are not planing our own timber, etc, we are certainly happy to have electricity to do these things (though when we didn't while building the cabin, that was fun too!).  It's fascinating for me to come closer to really imagining what some aspects of life would've been like for pioneers.

 

Large-scale food production is so efficient I can't imagine even a good number of people withdrawing would have much of an impact.  I do think we need it no matter how local resource control becomes popular or possible.  You're right, it's a redundancy issue--we need both to be empowered within the community.  We need only to look at New Orleans after Katrina, or more recently to Sandy, to know that people need to be much more self-reliant.  If you compare our experiences after disaster to somewhere whose people are more self-reliant (Japan comes to mind) you see how much more vulnerable we really are.  The average grocery store has food for 3 days only and the average household for less than a week.  When no one can fend for themselves, they turn very quickly to the government.

 

"Amplifying food yield, to the benefit of the human race."  This sounds like the Green Revolution, which by many measures has really not been as successful as promised.  I will read up on Borlaug for sure, but in the meantime I can say that looking around the US, especially the Mid-west, there seems to be some real problems with the food.  What folks are eating is killing them.  More than sedentary lifestyle, more than pollution, it's the food.  I'd like to see some real statistics around who exactly is benefiting and how.  IMO, the poor would be better off to go to traditional diets of beans, lard and rice rather than Cheetos and Twinkies.

 

It's not that I'm not a fan of science and technology, I am!  It's just when the science is pushing so hard at the great expense of natural systems, this I think is misguided.  We are not here to triumph over nature, but to cooperate together.  We will never be able to force our collective will onto nature and win.  She will just huff and puff and blow our house down. :D

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dsayers Newbie

dsayers

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I found "We've got to stop asking what it will look like, how and when it will happen, and start acting" to be valuable. So many people think that it's a thing being talked about when it is in fact an idea. The "thing" aspect of it is what we make of it. Not acting is just making the thing not very useful at all. Which is ironic because inaction in this context probably comes from fear of numbers, but they're adding to those numbers with their inaction.

 

In a tug of war, those who are just putting their hands on the rope will invariably travel in whichever direction has the most effort being put into pulling on it.

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