Litter in the streets

[Libertarian guy]

In my city (and also in a lot of other places in my country) there is a lot of litter in the street. Very often the government cleans the streets. But after every day the streets are full of litter. In some neighbourhoods there is a lot more litter than in others (the poor neighbourhoods with a lot of foreigners). But everywhere there are antisocial persons who are putting there cans, bottles etc. in the streets and not in the litter bins. That behavior is irritating me. Why are so much people so irresponsible? And why is it getting worse?

[PatrickC]

Well it's difficult to really understand your predicament. It seems litter has been a problem all my life. It's no surprise when the state monopolizes the service and only offer fines as a solution to littering. Of course poorer neighborhoods are less aesthetically pleasing environments to live in, so some of the residents care less about littering the place.

 

Often it's the state made ghetto that has the worst cases of littering. As with any poor service, follow the money. It usually relies on state granted privileges that acts as a disincentive for them to improve. It's really not about people's behaviour. Whilst the state will indeed try to offload the blame onto litterers, this is just their way of deflecting criticism about the dreadful services they run or hand out.

[ILO]

If you own a Monster Truck, I'm 99% sure that it's legal to run over the car of anyone you see littering on the roads.

 

[nathanm]

I dunno, I think it is about personal behavior.  Somewhere along the line you need to learn not to trash up either other people's, communal or unowned property. 

 

Here's a really disturbing series of photos from a post-music festival:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2403467/Reading-Festival-2013--fetch-dustpan-brush.html

 

This really makes it hard to make that warm fuzzy libertarian claim that 'people are generally good'.  Because the evidence here is that EVERYONE is a lazy asshole.  Dammit people, what happened to 'take only photographs, leave only footprints?'

 

[Culain]

I absolutely hate litter. Usually everywhere I go there are hundreds of cigarette butts or bottles lying the ground. I caught a few peers in the act of littering (some are libertarians/anarchists) and just just don't care, they defend with that it will cause a fire if their cigs are thrown in the trash. Why not put them out first? They throw stuff into forested areas as they walk because they don't want to wait until they get home to a trash.

 

It's disgusting.

[Mick Bynes]

I hate litter when I'm going out for walks in my neighborhood.  I'm going to look into joining this volunteer group that helps pick up litter off the streets.  It's absurd that people litter in the 21st century.  Really?  C'mon!

[Carl Green]

Why are so much people so irresponsible? And why is it getting worse?

 

I'm going to go with what seems to be the default answer for such woes which is shitty parenting.  If you're taught logic and empathy as a child you'll know it's bad to litter even if it inconvenciences you to have to place the litter in the trash.  If you're taught not to litter because your parents and/or the state say so, you'll just litter whenever your parents or the state 'aren't looking' because you don't want to be inconvenienced to properly dispose of your shit.

[Guest darkskyabove]

I dunno, I think it is about personal behavior.  Somewhere along the line you need to learn not to trash up either other people's, communal or unowned property. 

 

It is about personal behavior. Respect for others begins with respect for one's self. Many of the people who attend these events have not gone beyond their anger: at the failings of their parents, at a corrupt system, etc., which they feel powerless to oppose. They need something, though I'm not sure, exactly, what, or, how to provide it for them.

 

I'm going to go with what seems to be the default answer for such woes which is shitty parenting.

 

Although this accounts for most of it, it is not true that "shitty parenting" is the ultimate cause, at all times, for all people. I, and Stefan, and many others I have met, are products of "shitty parenting". Yet, we don't "trash the world" as an expression of our frustrations.

 

This form of activity is, I think, a result of peer pressure. If my friend litters, and I chastise them, I will suffer social repercussions. When compounded by thousands of people, you get a dirty mess.

[PatrickC]

All valid points you have all made of course. However, I'm still sticking with the state monopolizing the business of dealing with litter. Sure, some people are scummy itinerants that will always litter, but most people don't as a rule. Youngsters coming away from a rock concert with hangovers is a clear hazard of course. :DPublic rubbish cleaning practice have basically not changed since the late 60's. It's an area that the govt has monopolized for so long that it basically makes innovation nigh on impossible. The only thing that has, is that In the UK it has become a money making exercise by local governments as they fine people for putting domestic rubbish into public bins.

[Magnus]

It's a matter of property. State-owned property is as poorly managed as state-owned schools are. If everyone drove state-issued cars, how would people treat them?

 

On a microeconomic level, the cost of dropping garbage is lower than finding a trash can, and the resulting cost of littering is borne primarily by the state, not the litterer.

 

As a matter of Hayekian information theory, the State has no way of knowing what to spend on its property-management factors because (in the short term) it earns no more revenue by having clean property, and loses none by leaving it trashed. If a Starbucks location were left trashed, it would lose money in an hour. But if Starbucks paid to have one trash-cleaning employee per table, it would be wasteful. The State can't calculate how to decide where to put trash cans, or how many trash collectors to hire, or how to manage them.

 

As a matter of broad cultural and multigenerational trends, living in a state-designated ghetto tends to make people extremely short-sighted and self-interested, which drops their time horizons down to "right now" and makes their main concern "What's in it for me?"

[Libertarian guy]

Magnus, you said: "living in a state-designated ghetto tends to make people extremely short-sighted and self-interested, which drops their time horizons down to "right now" and makes their main concern "What's in it for me?" Why is that the case?

[Magnus]

Magnus, you said: "living in a state-designated ghetto tends to make people extremely short-sighted and self-interested, which drops their time horizons down to "right now" and makes their main concern "What's in it for me?"

 

Why is that the case?

I believe it's due to a chronic lack of long-term economic opportunities. Building long-term wealth (in the form of businesses, educations, houses, etc.) is difficult, and the skills to do these things must be learned. It takes practice and transmission of insights to younger generations. To do that, you need intact families, and stable groups of families.

 

The government's treatment of the poor has generally been various forms of containment and regulation, and in the process has destroyed the family. Schools are no better than prisons. They grow up in projects, so their neighborhoods have no businesses in them other than liquor stores and drug dealers. Drug laws create a black market, so it ends up being dominated by self-help gun violence. The residents of these hellholes have naturally oriented their lives to maximize their only reliable sources of income -- welfare benefits. Every government agency promotes a society of single mothers, no fathers, drugs and crime.

 

Where are these people supposed to learn the skills of hard work in entry-level positions, career advancement and financial planning? They learn instead to survive on a day-to-day basis.

[Josh F]

In my city (and also in a lot of other places in my country) there is a lot of litter in the street. Very often the government cleans the streets. But after every day the streets are full of litter. In some neighbourhoods there is a lot more litter than in others (the poor neighbourhoods with a lot of foreigners). But everywhere there are antisocial persons who are putting there cans, bottles etc. in the streets and not in the litter bins. That behavior is irritating me. Why are so much people so irresponsible? And why is it getting worse?

The problem of the commons, no one is responsible for that property because it is unowned, and thus littering isn't a violation of people's property rights.  It is rare that someone will litter on someone's actual property, right?  Why don't they throw the bottle to the right inside of the left when walking down a street?  To the left is the public road, to the right is a private home.  The consequences of littering on someone's property could be serious, who would want to deal with that kind of encounter?