Omegahero09 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I am a christian. Allow me to be explicit, I wish to be friendly, open, non-judgemental, rational, and academic in this post. I do not practice ad hominem. I am here to represent the truth as I understand it. I also seek the absolute truths of the universe. Run me through your gambit's philosophers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I am here to represent the truth as I understand it. I also seek the absolute truths of the universe. So you have a different truth? I do not understand and would appreciate an explanation as to what this means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepin Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Why are you Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 What would have to be demonstrated in order for you to accept that christianity is false and your god not real? Sometimes when I've debated the issue, it turned out way later that there was nothing that could have convinced the other person. Syllogistic proof wasn't even enough, so I think it's important to figure some of this stuff out ahead of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Wesley: correction: the truth taught by the bible i.e. the truth as christians understand it.I don't believe in doctrine. I only believe in the bible. Doctrines are basically theories about the texts and our reality which are not based from within the text- only from some form of reasoning, guessing, or assuming. Examples of doctrine are: Trinitarian doctrine, doctrine of original sin, the doctrine of lucifer, the doctrine of hell, etc. Most churches are heinously incorrect in their teachings because their doctrines differ from what the text says. The Westboro Baptist Church for example apparently didn't read all the parts of the bible which tells christians to not be wrathful, or quick to judge, etc etc. I have found the book to be an incredible work, one that could not have possibly been forged, and one w/o error. And before we start looking to the text for errors that we google- keep in mind this is like going back through old newspapers from another country that are centuries old, and if you don't have the correct context in mind you can make those papers say literally anything you want. Hence doctrine. Pepin:I am a christian because I am a moral absolutist, and have realized there is no possible way that the world around us could have just happened- there is overwhelming evidence of a designer. Additionally I've found in my search for the truths of the world- that the bible and it's teachings is the only religion which I've found to be without flaw. Kevin:Literally- it would take the presence of another god to disprove my beliefs. I am not convinced that this world just formed out of nothing. The second law of thermodynamics counters literally all other theories of our origins and our universes origins. Thus it is my opinion that I.D. is the only rational and scientific explanation for the universes origin. This is of course tabling my personal experiences with prayer and anecdotes, which for future reference- I will not bring to this conversation of my own volition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Literally- it would take the presence of another god to disprove my beliefs. If nothing would be able to disprove the existence of a god, then I will not waste my time trying. I would just like to point out (as a last hope) that this is the definition of delusion. Despite any amount of evidence or reason you will not disbelieve in a god. There must be a way for it to be falsifiable in order for it to be a rational and scientific proposition. Otherwise, it is just delusion and not worthy of logical debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdiaz03 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 (cough, cough troll alert , cough) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 It's interesting because I would argue that to not acknowledge the evidence of design and ignoring the laws of science to be delusional. Evolution is immensely flawed, and there are no other viable theories for the origins of the universe that I am aware of. I would argue that evolution and atheism take just as much faith if not more than most religions to believe as truth. Pardon me for finding this humorous- but I don't think it can be proven that there isn't a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Seeing as how I'm not going to be able to convince you, I do have a question that I think is interesting. Why doesn't god heal amputees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culain Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I would argue that evolution and atheism take just as much faith if not more than most religions to believe as truth. Pardon me for finding this humorous- but I don't think it can be proven that there isn't a god. But we have proof of both evolution and atheism occurring at the present moment. Our bodies are constantly evolving to adapt and survive in different environments. For atheism, it means "Without a belief in god/deities/supernatural", we are born atheist, theism is a "learned" state. Do you have to be a christian to qualify as a theist? There are hundreds of millions of people around the world whom believe in different Gods. I assume that you deny those other gods, thus you are giving credence to atheism. It's impossible to prove that something does not exist. In the Euthyphro dilemma it goes through the logic of 'God' being a logical contradiction. So how about you either correctly define your understanding of 'God' in a way that it is not a logical contradiction, otherwise you're just speaking out your ass. Find me the invisible pink unicorn. Later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Kevin:God according to my understanding is concerned with the choices of man. Amputees, tornadoes, whether or not the Pats will win the superbowl- he isn't too concerned with. Please, I do not wish to sound preachy, I hate it when people get preachy, so bear with me when I say that He does care, and will give ear to those who call out to Him. He's not a fan of suffering- or of evil. It is my opinion that he isn't basically a superhero (saving the weak from oppressors, stopping disasters, etc) because of two reasons: a) He judges who lives and who dies when they pass away. (there is no textual hell as doctrine describes it in the bible- only death, and living in heaven). and b) He appreciates sacrifice, as He created the world, gave humanity freewill and choice, and in the past when He did intervene personally (Israel in the old testament) people still went against Him and turned away from Him. Thus when evil men do evil things, it is the men who are responsible for evil- not God. Again this is my beliefs, and the truth as I understand it- I do not wish to sound preachy or pushy. Culain:False my friend. Evolution is a very complex process and takes time to complete. We have yet to record a particular species evolve to completion. If evolution were indeed true it would be called the law of evolution. Not the theory of evolution. Until then you cannot call adaptation evolution. That's an injustice to the theory, scientists, and creationists. And again false- I can prove a designer has designed our universe. There is so much evidence of design it's not even funny. The earth is too perfect and makes no sense in the scheme of our solar system, the chemical make-up of humans is insanely complex, there are too many similarities between creatures to be coincidental, the list goes on and on and on. It is impossible to prove that something does not exist. However occum's razor tells me that creationism rules out everything science has come up with thus far and I believe will come up with to explain our origins. Also to your theism comment- everything is learned my friend. We learn math, reading, arithmetic, logic and reasoning- we learn everything, whether by being taught or by experience. To invalid belief in a designer because we have to be taught it is silly. One more point: The second law of thermodynamics counters the universe. If this plane were eternal (as it would be in an atheist universe) the laws of physics and thermodynamics would erode everything to completely equally destroyed matter.However a temporarily created plane with dynamic and structured ecosystems could exist for a long time, but not forever. Pardon me,Occam's Razor*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestoringGuy Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 As a Platonist, I might have more in common with you than most atheists. What is given as evidence of a designer is also carried over to the designer himself. That is, God is too perfect and must have had a creator, if indeed perfect things are, as you suggest, designed. I probably differ with you on whether there is such perfection or "insane" complexity in this world. As far as definitions, you do not seem to state yours. The word "exists" is always a problem. To me, it means nothing by itself. God must not only exist, but by my definitions, God must be "present" in order for theism to seem worthy. Only things that are present can be tested for inside your created plane. A green rock buried on Neptune's smallest moon might "exist". But it's not present in the temporary plane you are observing. It does not affect your life. Are you allowing for God to be absent, like the green rock, yet existing in only some distant unreachable way? By the way, I like your "law of evolution" thing. It needs work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCapitalism Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Welcome Omega, What is your history with Christianity? (e.g. were you raised Christian, born again?) Are your friends/ family very Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culain Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 And again false- I can prove a designer has designed our universe. There is so much evidence of design it's not even funny. The earth is too perfect and makes no sense in the scheme of our solar system, the chemical make-up of humans is insanely complex, there are too many similarities between creatures to be coincidental, the list goes on and on and on. My argument was too perfect, it was so complex yet simple at the same time as it not only denied God but all Gods. There are too many similarities between your religion and other false religions to be a coincidence, the list can go on. It's ok to admit that you don't understand how everything works, I guarantee that you don't even know how a pencil is made. (Watch ipencil on youtube). Human spontaneity can create such complex systems without the individual actors knowing nothing more than their part. Using God as a placeholder does not dismiss the logical contradictions raised in the Euthyphro dilemma. But if you're going to dismiss the scientific methodology than I will not continue this, goodbye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Restoring Guy:What definitions do you want? I do believe that God is present- and I'm not giving you that doctrinal sillyness which says he is "in everything, in you and me!" That doctrine isn't supported by the text as far as I've seen (and I've looked) and neither is omnipresence. . However to describe His presence would require me to use anecdotes both personal and borrowed- as it is in the text that He only really interacts here with those who call Him, and then the occasional exception. Most of the anecdotes fall into the paranormal like things you would hear on Coast to Coast AM, so for the sake of the discussion I will not bring them up- unless you're like me and think that stuff is super rad. I think to dismiss a non present God is as silly as dismissing the idea that your CEO's don't exist because you've never seen them yourself. And thank you regarding the law of evolution thing lol it's just the truth man. Mr Capitalism: Thank you good to be here sir. I was raised under a christian home, though none of what I was taught was forced onto me or my brothers. When I was 19 was when I really started to look more seriously into what I believed and began to study it- as well as what else could debunk it- because I wanted to know the truth. Only recently have I really took the time to read the text cover to cover after I got all the basic "necessary" stuff down, because I wanted to understand the contexts of the book, as well as to see just how perfect everyone says the thing is. So far it's been pretty perfect. My family are the only ones who share identical beliefs with me. I do have christian friends, but only a couple really walk the walk- the others are just christian only in name. The other half of my friends are atheists/agnostics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 What would it mean for you socially, with your friends and family in particular for you to hold the position that in fact christianity is false and no gods exist? What would be the implication? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Culain:No- you're wrong you don't know anything about the God I worship. The similarities are nominal for the most part. But you think the similarities would kind of be a clue don't you think? I have a basic understanding of how most things work- when I learned about the intricacies of ecosystems, how complex and unique our atmosphere is compared to the other atmospheres, physiology, biology, chemistry, all these intricate systems that 'coincidentally' and 'miraculously' according to science community just- happened. So what's more simple: a creator? Or extraordinary freak luck that happened only on and of earth so far as we know it? Run this by your dilemma: The God of the bible loves all unconditionally. I'd love to hash this out with you, and dialogue with you good sir. Kevin: That people don't think God exists? What would it mean for you socially, with your friends and family in particular for you to hold the position that in fact the Oakland Raiders is the best team in the NFL? What would be the implication? I don't think the opinions of others and bandwagons should forge your paradigm entirely, or even majorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Run this by your dilemma: The God of the bible loves all unconditionally.Does God not place a condition upon us all to worship him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Does God not place a condition upon us all to worship him? “I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are. But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever.” — Mark 3:28-29 (Words of Jesus) Aka, I can rape, kill, assault, sexually abuse my children, but if I believe in God, I'm all set. However if I am a perfect person and peaceful and have a massively successful business and donate a ton to charity and raise amazing children and have great relationships, but I speak one time against the holy spirit, that is just blasphemy and I go to hell. Another Jesus quote for fun: Matthew 12:31-32: “And I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Xelent:No that's voluntary you don't have to if you don't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 What would it mean for you socially, with your friends and family in particular for you to hold the position that in fact the Oakland Raiders is the best team in the NFL? What would be the implication? It would mean that we have more to talk about since they do like sports and the Raiders in particular. I would likely be praised and get comments like "I knew you would come around" and a pat on the back. It would imply that my irritation with sports had nothing to do with sports or the industry itself, but with some emotional hangup. Alright, I answered yours. Now answer mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Wes:Well yes, if you speak against the creator, you don't get into his club, you just die with everyone else. This would be the equivalent of bad mouthing the club owner and his bouncers and then pointing out that they won't let you into the disco because you were talking shit- so of course that's the way it is. So yes- you are absolutely 100% correct. Kevin:It would simply just mean that we have differing opinions. Again, what if you were in China and surrounded by buddhists? What would that imply? India and hindus? Afghanistan and muslims? You can't base your argument around the opinions of others around you my friend that's invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Wes:Well yes, if you speak against the creator, you don't get into his club, you just die with everyone else. This would be the equivalent of bad mouthing the club owner and his bouncers and then pointing out that they won't let you into the disco because you were talking shit- so of course that's the way it is. So yes- you are absolutely 100% correct. Except the club owner doesn't condemn you to eternal torment for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Kev:Again false lol this- right here- is why I opened the thread. The doctrinal hell is not the same as what I've found to be the textual hell. Doctrinal hell = eternal damnation.Textual hell = place w/o God. You just die according to the text. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Wes: Well yes, if you speak against the creator, you don't get into his club, you just die with everyone else. This would be the equivalent of bad mouthing the club owner and his bouncers and then pointing out that they won't let you into the disco because you were talking shit- so of course that's the way it is. So yes- you are absolutely 100% correct. Kevin: It would simply just mean that we have differing opinions. Again, what if you were in China and surrounded by buddhists? What would that imply? India and hindus? Afghanistan and muslims? You can't base your argument around the opinions of others around you my friend that's invalid. What Kevin said. There are clubs across the street. Or you could go somewhere else. It is more like me owning a bunch of people and then me never revealing myself to them so that they know I exist. However, if they ever deny my existence then I send them off to be tortured for eternity in the worst ways imaginable. Slightly different... Kev: Again false lol this- right here- is why I opened the thread. The doctrinal hell is not the same as what I've found to be the textual hell. Doctrinal hell = eternal damnation. Textual hell = place w/o God. You just die according to the text. That's it. Key Facts About Eternity(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15). (2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27). (3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.). Key Passages About Hell(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10). (2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8). (3) Hell is conscious torment. Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth” Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone” (4) Hell is eternal and irreversible. Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night” Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire” Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire” Erroneous Views of Hell(1) The second chance view – After death there is still a way to escape hell. Answer: “It is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). (2) Universalism – All are eternally saved. Answer: It denies the truth of salvation through Christ which means that a person decides to either trust in Christ or else he/she rejects Christ and goes to hell (John 3:16;3:36). (3) Annihilationism – Hell means a person dies like an animal – ceases to exist. Answer: It denies the resurrection of the unsaved (John 5:28, etc. – see above). It denies conscious torment (see above). Objections to the Biblical View of Hell(1) A loving God would not send people to a horrible hell. Response: God is just (Romans 2:11). God has provided the way of salvation to all (John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9). Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20). God will seek those who seek Him (Matthew 7:7; Luke 19:10). Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (Romans 1:18,21,25). (2) Hell is too severe a punishment for man’s sin. Response: God is holy-perfect (1 Peter 1:14,15). Sin is willful opposition to God our creator (Romans 1:18-32). Our sin does merit hell (Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6). What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9). https://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Soo much taken out of context. Alright so how do you want me to break this down for you- verse by verse? Or by like, writing an essay or something? I can tell you right now most of this is doctrine labeling very contextual scripture. Revelations was written to the seven churches of asia (Rev 1:11) and applied to them only at the time it was written- as the book is rife with phrases like "the time is at hand" and "I am coming soon." The verses of Daniel are talking about very specific people as well, so are Matthew, John and again Revelations... All that above posted is doctrine not what the text is saying. Just as if I were to take passages from a history textbook and compiled them to make instructions for how to make toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Why would it be advantageous to engage you in debate when you say that nothing will change your mind? And why would you ever want to engage people like that? Doesn't that strike you as strange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Soo much taken out of context. Alright so how do you want me to break this down for you- verse by verse? No, no an answer to my question would suffice thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Kevin:I only wish to dialogue and grow intellectually- I seek the truth as much as others. It's that search for truth that brought me here, though I know that I am very obtuse here. In any case I would hope that we would all still be friendly neighbors in the forums. xelent:Which question? I do not understand your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCapitalism Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Have you listened to many of the podcasts on religion? What did you think of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegahero09 Posted November 1, 2013 Author Share Posted November 1, 2013 MrCapitalism:No I have not. The podcasts I've subscribed to only consist of Bill Burr, technically Stef's work (I predominantly use youtube but will soon be delving into books etc), and the occasional d&d roleplaying podcast- though most of those aren't that great unfortunately.Why pray tell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest darkskyabove Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 I wonder what the trolls are biting on today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCapitalism Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 It just seems like a whole lot of content... a lot easier to process than hashing the arguments out via some web forum. I read your OP as "I have never heard this before"... and wasn't sure if that was the case, or a feign of ignorance to start a debate. http://www.freedomainradio.com/Freedomain_Radio_Religion.xml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fleming Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Pardon me for finding this humorous- but I don't think it can be proven that there isn't a god. There are many thousands of gods described in texts from around the world, from the Hindu Gods, Viking Gods, Roman Gods, etc, etc. Please provide proof, for each of these Gods individually, showing that they don't exist. Why God almost certainly doesn't exist. Let's pretend for a moment that a highly advanced race of aliens created the universe. Let's say they wanted to play a trick on their creations and make them think that it was a "god" that created the universe. How would people know whether God was true or not? How could they see through the charade? Let's say the devil exists and he was the powerful one and he was tricking people. How would people see through that? There would be no way for us humans to know what was true or not, even if we did experience supernatural phenomena. The most simple explanation is that none of it is true. There's no way any rational person could possibly look at this situation and decide to worship God. In fact, if you look at it from a politico-economic standpoint it's clear that it is all for the benefit of the priest class. An easy way to extract resources from superstitious people. And that's why you have religions everywhere but of course they are all different. It's an easy way, in a world of scarcity, to get resources and that's why the phenomenon of religion is in all societies.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovePrevails Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Evolution is immensely flawed, and there are no other viable theories for the origins of the universe that I am aware of. I would argue that evolution and atheism take just as much faith if not more than most religions to believe as truth. Just so as you know this is a philosophy forum. Assertions are not philosophy, arguments and presenting evidence are. So tell us, specifically why do you beleive the bible is true? Also, were you forced to go to church as a child, and waht would the consequences have been if you'd refused to go? How were you disciplined as a child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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