Philosphorous Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Hello all: I don't see any threads (via the search function) seriously discussing Anarcho-Primitivism (AP), so I am creating this. Anarcho-primitivism critiques the totality of civilization from an anarchist perspective and seeks to initiate a comprehensive transformation of human life. In other words, if we don't change, we're going to suffer--even under free market capitalism. The belief that the world is ours to "use" and dominate is barbaric and short-sighted. I truly believe AP is the only hope that humans have for long-term survival. Here is a brief video of what AP is and why anyone would believe it: http://youtu.be/-oMobU_CbuU I made a video in response to Stefan's video concerning sustainability; please view it here: http://youtu.be/iO9spP939xk Please comment only on arguments, not the incredibly hypocritical fact that I don't sleep in the woods. I'm legally blind and discussed survivalism schools/rewilding with some experts and was told that I wouldn't make it. I'll be on the FDR call in show on 11/13 to discuss these topics with Stefan. Thanks for reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Please comment only on arguments, not the incredibly hypocritical fact that I don't sleep in the woods. I'm legally blind and discussed survivalism schools/rewilding with some experts and was told that I wouldn't make it. I am very curious about this statement. Why would you advocate a system where you "wouldn't make it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosphorous Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Because my life isn't worth the untold millions who are dying and will die as a result of the current system. The longer the current system lasts, the more humans and non-humans will die when it comes down. We could have a soft landing if everyone chose to, but that is unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTnicholas Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Proposing a universal "civilization is.evil" is not some highfalutin inaccessible ideal. Universals must be lived with integrity to be taken seriously. So, why do you participate in civilization? Isn't it evil? Why haven't you given away your computer and all your civilized possessions and go live in some uninhabited area. Perhaps living your universals with integrity will convince more people. Can civilization really not be universalized? What is the definition of civilization? If you could answer those questions maybe we could pursue this with more rigour. Also, I am so sorry that your natural confidence has been so crushed that your utopia is one of self described suicide. Sorry that I am unable to address your arguments but it appears as though you'ven't made any. "Anarcho-primitivism critiques the totality of civilization from an anarchist perspective" What exactly is an anarchist perspective? "and seeks to initiate a comprehensive transformation of human life." This is a little vague. What kind of transformation, why? How? "In other words, if we don't change, we're going to suffer--even under free market capitalism." This clarifies things, but it is not an argument, it is a statement which should be backed up with reason and evidence if you wish to convince anyone you are right. "The belief that the world is ours to "use" and dominate is barbaric and short-sighted." Civilization as I understand, it not necessarily the domination of nature or its resources. Again if you could define civilization then it would clear things up a lot. Also calling something barbaric and short-sighted is not an argument, it is sophistry. Adjectives are not arguments, they are in fact veiled form of ad hominem. "I truly believe AP is the only hope that humans have for long-term survival." Sounds like you do, if you could try to convince me that would produce a good discussion. Also, Id rather not watch videos that I cannot respond to or discuss with, if you could make some arguments for AP then we can discuss and see if they are sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTreason Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Environmental nonsense. iHe I turned the video off as soon as I heard the claim that humans are enslaving plants. "It's genocide to remove trees" haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tasmlab Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 I read once that prior to about 150 years ago, the third largest cause of human death was diarrhea. There must be a thousand little quips like this that would make most shudder at the thought of primitivism. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoopMeat Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 We are apart of nature so if we are affecting nature I just see it as only a natural progression. Whose to say it's wrong if we change earths environment not to necessarily deterraformimg it but to reterraform [1] it so its a more hospitable environment for everyone. At that we've had several major deterraforming that have happened on earth where commets were the main cause for major life extinction [2]. Is a commet not natural as well? I don't think it's bad eating animals and plants it's the way our society natural progressed through nature. I hope through our natural progression that we develop technology that allows you to regain sight along with other problems technology can solve within our society thanks to the market place. Reference: Terraforming [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming Extinction event [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosphorous Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 Proposing a universal "civilization is.evil" is not some highfalutin inaccessible ideal. Universals must be lived with integrity to be taken seriously. So, why do you participate in civilization? Isn't it evil? Why haven't you given away your computer and all your civilized possessions and go live in some uninhabited area. Perhaps living your universals with integrity will convince more people. I tried. I'm blind so it wasn't successful. Also, attacking me is proving nothing. The entire rest of your thread about providing arguments seems a little silly when you open with an ad hominem. In addition, civilization robs people of basic survival skills because we can just go to the store for food. Can civilization really not be universalized? What is the definition of civilization? If you could answer those questions maybe we could pursue this with more rigour. Civilization is the presence of cities, which are collections of people that require the importation of resources. Once humans hyper-expoit the land around them they need to expand to grow. This requires agriculture, which requires the same importation of resources, which requires force (people don't willingly give up their land and resources, and since the city dwellers lives depend on the importation, it is likely the city dwellers will initiate force if their needs aren't met). Also, I am so sorry that your natural confidence has been so crushed that your utopia is one of self described suicide.Sorry that I am unable to address your arguments but it appears as though you'ven't made any. "Utopia" is a word people with weak arguments like to use. It's another ad hominem. "Anarcho-primitivism critiques the totality of civilization from an anarchist perspective"What exactly is an anarchist perspective? One without force. See above on cities forcing the surrounding areas to give up resources. "and seeks to initiate a comprehensive transformation of human life."This is a little vague. What kind of transformation, why? How? There is no straight line to transition from here to there. Rewilding is a million acts by millions of people. "In other words, if we don't change, we're going to suffer--even under free market capitalism."This clarifies things, but it is not an argument, it is a statement which should be backed up with reason and evidence if you wish to convince anyone you are right. The Earth only has so much to give. Once it's exploited to exhaustion it's going to result in a human extinction event. Does that clear things up? Agriculture requires clearcuts and genocide of a piece of land (since animals and trees are just there for humans to use, right?), which will eventually exhaust all livable space. "The belief that the world is ours to "use" and dominate is barbaric and short-sighted."Civilization as I understand, it not necessarily the domination of nature or its resources. Again if you could define civilization then it would clear things up a lot. Also calling something barbaric and short-sighted is not an argument, it is sophistry. Adjectives are not arguments, they are in fact veiled form of ad hominem. Putting a price on something's life is barbaric. There's no other way to put it. Seeing dollar bills instead of trees may be an emotional appeal--of course until it hits home. For example, should mentally ill humans and babies be bought and sold like animals because "we can"? AP is hard to grasp for many because they were grown up to believe the entire Earth is here for us to use. Objectifying and pricing every square inch and every object (and labeling everything as a "resource") benefits the dominating humans and nothing else. I read once that prior to about 150 years ago, the third largest cause of human death was diarrhea. There must be a thousand little quips like this that would make most shudder at the thought of primitivism. IMO. How many people have died as a result of civilization diseases like cancer? Humans have created poisons for which they have no antidote and it has every life system in decline. Approxiamately 200 species per day go extinct: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/un-environment-programme-_n_684562.html Environmental nonsense. iHe I turned the video off as soon as I heard the claim that humans are enslaving plants. "It's genocide to remove trees" haha Let's have an experiment, shall we? Let's invite strong space aliens who want to put an intergalactic mall where your neighborhood is to destroy your homes and murder you if you get in the way--kind of like is done now to forests and their inhabitants. Since they're stronger than you and can exploit you, it's moral, right? Learn a little about biology and then let's talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry_diller Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 (edited) How many people have died as a result of civilization diseases like cancer? Humans have created poisons for which they have no antidote and it has every life system in decline. Approxiamately 200 species per day go extinct: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/un-environment-programme-_n_684562.html Let's have an experiment, shall we? Let's invite strong space aliens who want to put an intergalactic mall where your neighborhood is to destroy your homes and murder you if you get in the way--kind of like is done now to forests and their inhabitants. Since they're stronger than you and can exploit you, it's moral, right? Learn a little about biology and then let's talk. you compare felling the forest to human genocide as even?Also a mass human genocide of people needs to take place before we can live off nature alone. Nature can't survive 7 billion going primitive. How do we get rid of them? Birth control? As AnarcoB said, if you do have respect for all other voluentary system and wants to live side by side. I have no problem what so ever, might even live for some time with such a tribe and see how i do.. But it sounds like you believe that the whole earth will get destroyed if not all human lives as you please (anarcho-primitivism) Edited November 24, 2013 by Barry_diller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnarcoB Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Hey Chris, What's there to criticize? You're 100% correct. Any pursuit, idea, concept or cause that is placed behind the word "Anarcho-" is awesome. Keep up the good work. Can you imagine a society where the "Anarcho" is just assumed, and we all debated and experimented with different ideas? I can definitely see myself trying out different social structures to see what was the best fit for me. Why would we assume that we would be inclined to stagnate in the same society someone else created for our whole lives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridolutin Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Can you see the veil ? I’ve been seeking for many years and rediscovered the ancient wisdom in the form of archetypes that can be used in multiple levels to understand the process energy and matter goes trough in their inter actions in particular situations. They are the hexagrams of the I Ching, the book of transformation, latter used by Lao Tze to write his Tao Te Ching. They can be compared to seeds containing a potential that will unfold or not depending on the conditions they endure or profit from. This helped me develop fractal vision The false power What comes along with the false power cant be rewarding in its fundamental meaning. Our understanding of the basic meaning of wealth is since a long time perverted by our presence in the artificial man made land where values were changed to fit this new illusive world. Lie is seen as truth and truth as lie. What is acquired by dishonest means cannot be kept. What was built with the false power cannot last. A tree with short roots and overdeveloped branches will be uprooted when the wind grows. The ignorance is the veil that progressively covered human senses and conscience darkening them as he traveled deeper and deeper in his artificial world built to give him advantages on all other life forms. In the process of this exclusive process he lost the sense of community and inter dependancy with other life forms while his self importance and benefices grew bigger and bigger. As the ancient teachings say : Community in the clan, humiliation. The consequence of mistreating his own family that are other life forms is taking a toll on himself as they where the most fit to take care of life, and particularly of his own, and that they where replaced by the unfit, those of the clan only interested in selfish profit. Members of the clan, experts in words and attractive phrases as they are in fabricating a package so appealing the consumer is no more looking at the content and spending his wealth in exchange of empty boxes. This metaphor of boxes and content applies to all aspect of the artificial world, as even the actions become meaningless. We can clearly see that at the end of the cycle extreme consequences are occurring at the edges in the form of abuse and great injustice, these cannot be stopped and those in the peripherical regions will be and are seriously affected. As the ancient pinpointed the safe haven as being in the center where everything is calm and still, they also showed the direction and the way to rejoin Centerland. Can you see trough the veil ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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