Feminist on Prostitution

[LovePrevails]

I read it and I think it is saying "Men should be made to take moral responsibility for visiting prostitutes, not excused for it." I agree with that and I think "Men buy sex because they think they can treat prostitutes differently than they can treat their wives, girlfriends, and dates" is probably true as well - but it doesn't satisfy my curiosity as to why men want to do this? I have never seen the appeal.

 

What is more something about the tone very much does not appeal to me and I feel resentment reading it.

 

http://feministcurrent.com/8190/if-prostitution-isnt-about-lonely-undersexed-men-what-is-it-about-or-justin-bieber-doesnt-need-to-pay-for-sex/

[Stephen C]

I admire her ability to write. I don't write as well as she does.What does your resentment say?

[Mishelle]

Hi, how intriguing thanks for posting!

 

 I find this article to be very shallow.  Has she any data besides a silly film?  Has she spoken to prostitutes, male and female alike.  The sex trade in most places in the world is an equal opportunity employer and there are loads of men in it--in Thailand "katoys" or cross-dressing or feminized boys attract sex tourists from around the world.  The female minister says "There is NO sex trade in Thailand!" Women are not only complicit in this, they are up to their eyeballs in responsibility they refuse to see, so gifted at pointing fingers!

 

Furthermore, I have rape and "courtesan" fantasies, and so do lots of women.  Are we all deranged wanna-be prostitutes in her eyes, I wonder?  What of female dominance and aggression, seriously, she has hardly scratched the surface in anything of substance.  If one hasn't had the experience of dominating and penetrating in a "male way" can one empathize with the (potentially) positive allure and result that might have?

OK I'm babbling now, but still, that I can come up with all this in a few minutes shows me how little she has scratched the surface in this piece that really doesn't even deserve to be published anywhere, because it contributes nothing.  Except . . . 

 

It is still an intriguing and powerful conversation to start!

[Stephen C]

Uh oh, the patriarchy got'chu.

[FreedomPhilosophy]

Hi Mishelle, thanks for that excellent reply.Your point about data is very pertinent. A person with genuine curiosity about human behaviour would start by picking up some books on biology and psychology. And NOT with shame based personal judgements and empty rhetoric. Of course feminism has never been interested in exploring scientific explanations for social phenomena.Here's my unscientific explanation for why women prostitute themselves and men pay: some women prefer making money for sex to being chaste, some men prefer to pay for sex rather than make the time/emotional investment pursuing relationships. And even in relationships men want sex more often than their partners, hence there is a lack of "supply".The article linked is insincere and shaming. 

Another problem with that daft feminist rant is that not all female sex workers are prostitutes, some are pro doms. How does that square with the men have power over women BS?

[Mishelle]

I just spoke of it to Hubby and he throws out another perfect argument right off the cuff, even while stripping wire, hehe.

 

He says:  "Those men are so exploited!  Just for some companionship and attention they are required to pay a prostitute, because all women can think about is money, and all they value men for is their possibility and intention to give it to them."

 

I realize to some degree this is her "argument" -- that we are made to feel sorry somehow thru the patriarchy propaganda and this is how the oldest trade in the world began and continues to thrive -- lol

 

But seriously, why not at least attempt one rational question--like what might it look like to stop playing the victim for one goddamn minute?

People like sex, sex pays, let's at least start there. 

[FreedomPhilosophy]

I just spoke of it to Hubby and he throws out another perfect argument right off the cuff, even while stripping wire, hehe.

 

He says:  "Those men are so exploited!  Just for some companionship and attention they are required to pay a prostitute, because all women can think about is money, and all they value men for is their possibility and intention to give it to them."

 

I realize to some degree this is her "argument" -- that we are made to feel sorry somehow thru the patriarchy propaganda and this is how the oldest trade in the world began and continues to thrive -- lol

 

But seriously, why not at least attempt one rational question--like what might it look like to stop playing the victim for one goddamn minute?

People like sex, sex pays, let's at least start there. 

I'm not sure I understand the concept of exploitation re prostitution. In general it seems to involve someone being vulnerable and that vulnerability being used to derive a gain for someone else.In the case of slavery clearly the slave master exploits the slaves weaker position and gains a monetary reward. And the slave is in no way exploiting the master. This is not so clear with prostitution, the prostitute can make a very good living, even "retire" in her 40s if she's an up market call girl. So it's clear who makes the monetary gain, but who got exploited? Was the pro vulnerable because she only had selling sex as a way to make money? (may be true in developing world) But was the client exploited because his biology/psychology predisposes him to want sex that he can't otherwise easily get?

[Mishelle]

Thanks FP, v kind of you to say.  I like your unscientific exploration! 

 

I think this ties perfectly into ethics, because in order to do what you are saying, there must be extraordinary transparency.  Ultimately I do believe selling the body to be unethical, sexually and in a few other areas as well.  Still, shaming is a form of psychic violence and therefor, as Stef says about all violence, it will have the opposite effect.

 

That may sound contradictory from my earlier post a bit, but still what feels most beneficial and evolved to me is a kind of relationship where all is laid bare--but to this day men are unwilling to defend it, women are unwilling to hear it--and so we do not as a culture evolve beyond these very old patterns.  Ideally women would step up inside the couple to make sure her man does not need to explore seedier avenues, and vice-versa.  

 

I like the convo, I don't feel my thoughts are set in stone, even if it may sound that way!

[FreedomPhilosophy]

 

 

I think this ties perfectly into ethics, because in order to do what you are saying, there must be extraordinary transparency.  Ultimately I do believe selling the body to be unethical, sexually and in a few other areas as well.  Still, shaming is a form of psychic violence and therefor, as Stef says about all violence, it will have the opposite effect.

 

 

Doesn't all paid labour involve "selling the body"? Why is labour using one part of the body morally different than another?How many partnerships (marriage or otherwise) would occur between men and women if the woman was not prepared to offer sex as part of the deal? Are such sexual partnerships still "prostitution", or is it only prostitution when money and strangers are involved?

[Mishelle]

I should have made more clear in that earlier post, Hubby is big joker, likes the devil's advocate position in most situations, that reply was in his characteristic half-jest mode 

"How many partnerships (marriage or otherwise) would occur between men and women if the woman was not prepared to offer sex as part of the deal? Are such sexual partnerships still "prostitution", or is it only prostitution when money and strangers are involved?"

 

In my current experience: VERY few.  Good questions.  What is being brought to the table by each person?  Sex for money, that's the trade called prostitution.  But when I bring so much other goodness and so many other virtues to the exchange, as does he, this is of course very different.  Maybe it's the shallowness that feels objectionable to feminists?  But then I would suggest we challenge our own shallowness first.  Or maybe it's the lost potential?  Because if men would focus their intense seductive energy inwardly more and outwardly less, there would be more satisfaction for her in the rel.

 

I get the urge to make sex easy and meaningless and part of the simple needs to be met, I see too where it is about sexual release or dominance/submission, or distraction, or addiction, or all the other things that come with feeding the biological urges, but still I weigh it against what would be my first choice, which would be that it wouldn't be necessary to go to those extremes to be real in this world.

 

For whatever that's worth.

[Mishelle]

"Doesn't all paid labour involve "selling the body"? Why is labour using one part of the body morally different than another?"

I would argue that no, it does not.  Selling time and resources would seem to name it better imho.  As a housekeeper, for example, I am not playing with my own natural emotions in order to serve or execute my labor, my earnings.  Hehe, or maybe I am, in which case I guess housekeeping doesn't suit me.  This is interesting to consider for sure. What does it cost the scientist to sell his ideas to Hitler?  That's how it feels to me.  And yes, now we venture into feelings, not very rational to be sure.  There is a cost to this kind of rel that goes unexplored because folks are too judgy and self-indulgent.  

[FreedomPhilosophy]

In my current experience: VERY few.  Good questions.  What is being brought to the table by each person?  Sex for money, that's the trade called prostitution.  But when I bring so much other goodness and so many other virtues to the exchange, as does he, this is of course very different.  Maybe it's the shallowness that feels objectionable to feminists?  But then I would suggest we challenge our own shallowness first.  Or maybe it's the lost potential? 

I don't doubt that making love to my partner is a far richer experience than emptying my load into a stranger, on the other hand some nights I prefer to watch a crummy movie at the cinema than watch the best actors in a theatre.Moralising about preferences seems futile to me.

[Mishelle]

Ah yes, I see, I don't watch crummy movies.  

[LovePrevails]

Thank you for your responses they were very educational.

[PatrickC]

I think the title alone gives away the irritation... "If prostitution isn’t about lonely, undersexed men, what is it about?".

 

It's just an attempt to shame men once again. Either the shame is shared between prostitute and John or there is no shame in it at all.

 

I enjoyed FP and Mishelle's take on it too.

[Mishelle]

"Moralising about preferences seems futile to me."

 

This is not a question of simple preferences imho, and an easy way to demonstrate that would be to turn the tables.  Let's say your love partner has a acquired a particular preference you do not like--she likes to penetrate you anally with a King Kong dildo--but you don't find this appealing at all and it hurts and makes you bleed, so you don't want to do it with her.  Of course, a male prostitute would have no problem performing this act, so you suggest she see one each week to empty her orgasm in this way with a pro.

Still seem like an appealing preference to you?  Or might there be a sliver of an ethical issue now?

[aeonicentity]

Typically speaking there tends to be a certain age bracket and psychological profile that fits women who enter into prostitution. While some of this tends to be a result of its illegality, even places where its legal, this tends to hold true:

 

1) Participants in prostitution tend to be people in their sexual prime

2) Prostitutes tend to have no ethical qualms about sexual relationships, and tend to have a relatively calloused view of the importance of sex when compared to non-prostitutes. (that it isn't as meaningful or important.)

 

For people to demean the value of sex, usually means that either life experiences have taught them it isn't valuable, or that they weren't instilled with specific values relating to sex as a child. I won't argue wether this is good or bad, however I will point out that this is often related to lack of good male role models.

 

In my own personal experience with a woman invovled in porn (a kind of mass prostitution) and prostitution she did what she did because of scaring from previous sexual relationships. This early relationship trouble lead to her being highly sexually active (moreso than an average teen) and she more or less considers sex so common place that she would bang anything that asked. Its not a very far step from that kind of attitude to prostitution. If you're good at it, why not make money?

 

While it is not universal to the profession, many women who are prostitutes consider it their most salable skill. This attitude also might be true of many women who marry.After all, marriage is simply the only trade of sex for value in our society which we allow, and this we do only because its stable and good for children.

[Mishelle]

Thanks for sharing your input and experience in this a.  I would agree with what you write here, except for the part on marriage.  

 

Marriage has historically had very little to do with sex at all, this is one of the reasons prostitution began to flourish, and the bulk of long-term marriages have little sex.  Those who do still have good sex--and I can vouch for this one--in no way do I consider sex part of some trade with my husband, nor he with me.  We desire each other, we have no children to raise.  If he wanted to have sex with prostitutes as well and was open about that with me, we'd have a nice long comfortable discussion about his feelings before I said: NO WAY in HELL, go see a therapist first, I'll read up on role-play sex, and then we'll talk again.

 

There is a "trade" in marriage, but it's nothing to do with sex, those who confuse this end up divorced.

[CrazyCanuck]

Thanks for sharing your input and experience in this a.  I would agree with what you write here, except for the part on marriage.  

 

Marriage has historically had very little to do with sex at all, this is one of the reasons prostitution began to flourish, and the bulk of long-term marriages have little sex.  Those who do still have good sex--and I can vouch for this one--in no way do I consider sex part of some trade with my husband, nor he with me.  We desire each other, we have no children to raise.  If he wanted to have sex with prostitutes as well and was open about that with me, we'd have a nice long comfortable discussion about his feelings before I said: NO WAY in HELL, go see a therapist first, I'll read up on role-play sex, and then we'll talk again.

 

There is a "trade" in marriage, but it's nothing to do with sex, those who confuse this end up divorced.

 

 

 

 

 

How about swinging?  What if you are not willing to have sex as much a wants.

[Mishelle]

Thanks for asking CC, I appreciate your curiosity and the chance to express my thoughts and feelings on these topics.

 

My experience with sex in long-term rels is that men are more concerned about the quantity and women are more concerned about the quality.  This is always a struggle and negotiation.  I want longer, more adventurous, more intimate encounters where he just wants it,  and wants me to want it how he wants it, and might forget I even have needs if I don't make them known.   What happens when you give men free reign without objection to quality?  The quality quickly diminishes.

 

So while I think on a scale of ethics swinging tops prostitution, still I would argue that neither solves this fundamental issue in the couple's world.  I also think adults spend way to much time pursuing the lesser drives and that comes at a cost to the entire society.  I realize that sounds judgy and maybe I'm wrong and this actually keeps the world from becoming even worse, but still my gut tells me that's not the case.

 

Do I sound prudish?  Cause I'm actually not, I just think more moderation in all things "appetite" would do the world a whole lot of good.

 

I first looked at hardcore porn magazines when I was 12.  By hardcore I mean bondage, S&M, pissing, etc. They were in the basement, my step-father's.  My mom had her stack of erotica in the bathroom cupboard, almost equally racy.  This is what I saw before I ever saw the real thing, and we were just mid-west middle class suburban family in the 80s.  Meanwhile my virginity is considered a family topic for the dinner table.  That I found them and looked at them, and smoked my mom's marijuana at 13 is considered my fault, for snooping.  Imagine for a moment what this does to a girl's psyche.  Imagine a bit more how much worse and more accessible it is today.  

 

 

Our gluttonous appetites and habits are ruining the culture and I really think we need to join in on a very serious conversation on sex where ethics are a centerpiece.

[CrazyCanuck]

I can assure you there's men out there that want quality over quantity.  Maybe these kind of men are more rare?

Hi, how intriguing thanks for posting!

 

 I find this article to be very shallow.  Has she any data besides a silly film?  Has she spoken to prostitutes, male and female alike.  The sex trade in most places in the world is an equal opportunity employer and there are loads of men in it--in Thailand "katoys" or cross-dressing or feminized boys attract sex tourists from around the world.  The female minister says "There is NO sex trade in Thailand!" Women are not only complicit in this, they are up to their eyeballs in responsibility they refuse to see, so gifted at pointing fingers!

 

Furthermore, I have rape and "courtesan" fantasies, and so do lots of women.  Are we all deranged wanna-be prostitutes in her eyes, I wonder?  What of female dominance and aggression, seriously, she has hardly scratched the surface in anything of substance.  If one hasn't had the experience of dominating and penetrating in a "male way" can one empathize with the (potentially) positive allure and result that might have?

OK I'm babbling now, but still, that I can come up with all this in a few minutes shows me how little she has scratched the surface in this piece that really doesn't even deserve to be published anywhere, because it contributes nothing.  Except . . . 

 

It is still an intriguing and powerful conversation to start!

 

 

The article is based on Justin  Bieber.  He isn't the average guy.  His life is a lot of stress and people like him end up doing sex, drugs and rock's roll.  While doing it with prostitute is not a moral thing to do you can not judge someone when you haven't been there.  It's always easier to criticize someone else than yourself.   The author is trying to portray men to be evil by being sexist pigs and being violient.

 

When men can't find meaningful relationship he may just look for sex, he will eventually get tired of it.   Many men are going their own way.  No sex with women, no dating.  From what I see this will eventually be the normal.

[Mishelle]

"Many men are going their own way.  No sex with women, no dating.  From what I see this will eventually be the normal."

 

This will never happen.  Not sure what you are seeing and where, but ain't nothing changing around these parts, thank heavens! 

[CrazyCanuck]

"Many men are going their own way.  No sex with women, no dating.  From what I see this will eventually be the normal."

 

This will never happen.  Not sure what you are seeing and where, but ain't nothing changing around these parts, thank heavens! 

It is starting, when men get accused of rape falsely they think twice about it.

[Mishelle]

Rather than abstinence I'd think more resourceful than that--have her sign a PCC, (Pre-Coitus Contract), for example. 

[CrazyCanuck]

Rather than abstinence I'd think more resourceful than that--have her sign a PCC, (Pre-Coitus Contract), for example. 

You crack me up.   I haven't had sex in 13 years, I was wondering if I should become a buddhist monks for a while.   

[Mishelle]

I'm glad! Laughter is almost a great a healer as sex.  13 years?  She must have really broken your heart, the witch.  

[CrazyCanuck]

I'm glad! Laughter is almost a great a healer as sex.  13 years?  She must have really broken your heart, the witch.  

I am not going to spill the beans out here.  She wasn't the reason, just harder for me to trust women in general when some the events occurred later.  I don't want meaningless sex after meaning less sex.  

[NeoEclectic]

Women exploit themselves when it comes to sex trade. Men are not to blame. Men are participants in a trade that can only be made available by the supply provided by women.

 

Instead of criticizing men for visiting prostitutes women should be criticized for engaging into prostitution. Not in all cases are women forced into a life of prostitution or a life of trading sex for money. It's voluntary.

 

That's like the USA being the largest arms producer in the world and then criticizing other countries for buying our merchandise. Which doesn't happen because we're making money from it and because it's simply hypocritical.

[Lowe D]

@ NeoEclectic

 

That's not how business works.  Supply meets existing demand, not vice versa.

 

Prostitution occurs because of the abusive parents of the men who fund it.  Johns are either afraid or otherwise avoidant of intimacy, or they are addicted to sex.  Those things only come from bad parents.

 

There's nothing wrong with consensual sex trade, and I would never shame anyone involved.  But it's clearly the demand of abused men, which creates prostitution.  Otherwise the women would engage in some other business.

[PatrickC]

@ NeoEclectic

 

That's not how business works.  Supply meets existing demand, not vice versa.

 

Prostitution occurs because of the abusive parents of the men who fund it.  Johns are either afraid or otherwise avoidant of intimacy, or they are addicted to sex.  Those things only come from bad parents.

 

There's nothing wrong with consensual sex trade, and I would never shame anyone involved.  But it's clearly the demand of abused men, which creates prostitution.  Otherwise the women would engage in some other business.

 

I feel a certain resistance to this idea. Not entirely of course, but the suggestion that prostitution merely revolves around a man's dysfunction isn't quite so clear cut I think. If it is dysfunctional, then surely it relates to both parties in the transaction and not just one half.

[Lowe D]

Xelent, calling something dysfunctional isn't the same as calling it wrong.  I am not condemning men who patronize prostitutes, nor the prostitutes themselves.  However it does revolve around the dysfunction of those men.  They are the market.  From what I understand, prostitutes tend to be dysfunctional, former abused children.  H/e they are not the market.  They're the people who are inclined to service the market.

 

This is where these discussions always veer off, in my experience.  Even Stefan, in his podcast series about prostitution, only mentions that johns are typically dysfunctional, but does not go into detail on it.  This was several years ago, so I don't know what he'd say now.  The abuse of boys by their mothers is the key factor, and that's why it's so disgusting for me to read tirades against the male patrons of prostitutes.  It's victim blaming.

[PatrickC]

Yes that makes sense. Just to clarify, that I meant 'dysfunction' as a product of trauma.

[Mishelle]

This trade is closely linked to the human trafficking trade and children become involved at a very young age.  Feminists take this issue on with such passion because of the children, most feminists I know have no problem with grown women sexually servicing others for financial gain--they think a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with her own body.

 

The shaming of either john or prostitute is futile, at least we can all agree there!

 

Some important info in this convo I think:

 

 

The numbers;

Update: In 2012 the (UNODC) United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime reports the percentage of child victims had risen in a 3 year span from 20 per cent to 27 per cent. Of every three child victims, two are girls and one is a boy.

Gender and age profile of victims detected globally: 59% Women - 14% Men - 17% Girls and 10% were Boys.

• 600,000 to 800,000 women, children and men bought and sold across international borders every year and exploited for forced labor or commercial sex (U.S. Government)
• When internal trafficking victims are added to the estimates, the number of victims annually is in the range of 2 to 4 million
• 50% of those victims are estimated to be children
• It is estimated that 76 percent of transactions for sex with underage girls start on the Internet
• 2 million children are subjected to prostitution in the global commercial sex trade (UNICEF)
• There are 20.9 Million victims of Trafficking World wide as of 2012
• 1.5 Million victims in the United States
•  
• The impact;
• Human trafficking has surpassed the illegal sale of arms
• Trafficking will surpass the illegal sale of drugs in the next few years
• Drugs are used once and they are gone. Victims of child trafficking can be used and abused over and over
• A $32 billion-a-year industry, human trafficking is on the rise and is in all 50 states (U.S. Government)
• 4.5 Million of trafficked persons are sexually exploited
• Up to 300,000 Americans under 18 are lured into the commercial sex trade every year
• From 14,500 - 17,500 of those victims are trafficked into the United States each year

Click to read the  Needs of Rescued Trafficking Victims

 According to non-governmental U.S. sources;

• Average victims age is 11 to 14
• Approx 80% are women and children bought, sold and imprisoned in the underground sex service industry
• Average life span of a victim is 3 to 7 years (found dead from attack, abuse, HIV and other STD's, malnutrition, overdose or suicide)

The largest group of at-risk children are runaway, thrown away, or homeless American children who use survival sex to acquire food, shelter, clothing, and other things needed to survive on America's streets. According to the National Runaway Switchboard  1.3 million runaway and homeless youth live on America's streets every day. [5,000 die each year] It would not be surprising to learn that the number of children trafficked in the United States is actually much higher than 300,000.

Children are often targeted by traffickers as they are deemed easier to manipulate than adults. More money can be earned by younger girls and boys exploited in sexual exploitation, especially virgins. Pre-pubescent girls are reported to be injected with hormones to bring on puberty. Younger girls are expected to have a greater earning potential, and as such are in greater demand. 

 

 

http://www.arkofhopeforchildren.org/issues/child-trafficking-statistics#.UozRbtKshXw

 

 

 

[PatrickC]

 

This trade is closely linked to the human trafficking trade and children become involved at a very young age.  Feminists take this issue on with such passion because of the children, most feminists I know have no problem with grown women sexually servicing others for financial gain--they think a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with her own body.

 

The shaming of either john or prostitute is futile, at least we can all agree there! 

 

I'm doubtful that feminists are particularly interested in the plight of children. Since they continually rebuke opposition to single motherhood, this despite the evidence to show the negative consequences for children. It's fair to say that there are many women and men that care about human trafficking of course. But I think feminists see this as an opportunity to gain more power and lobbying strength within the UN sadly.

 

I certainly agree that the shaming of either side of the transaction in prostitution is both futile and erroneous.

[CrazyCanuck]

 Approximately 40 percent of child victims were maltreated by their mothers acting alone; another 18.3 percent were maltreated by their fathers acting alone; 17.3 percent were abused by both parents (USDHHS, 2007).

 

 

  

 

 

http://www.americanhumane.org/children/stop-child-abuse/fact-sheets/child-abuse-and-neglect-statistics.html

 

 

If femenist actually cared about children they would stop abusing them.  Considering  stats women abused children more than twice that of men.  Even Stefan about this in one of his podcast just recently.