How to actually talk to feminists

[LovePrevails]

...about men's issues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUcoDrGvlsc&feature=youtu.be

[Stephen C]

Or anyone about any issue

[LovePrevails]

well thank you, I was trying to appeal on a tone and level that make people actually care about what you are saying, giving them a reason to take interest, and speaking in a way I think cna be convincing and change minds.

[PatrickC]

Interesting thoughts about male vulnerability there LP.. I would be curious to hear how she might respond to that.

Actually, could you post the initial video or article you were responding too please.

[LovePrevails]

yes thanks for your curiosity xelent, here is the post:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=748047985212721&set=vb.100000225782340&type=2&theater

 

I don't know if it is public, let me know, if not tell me and I will ask her

[PatrickC]

No, it's publicly available, thanks.

[LovePrevails]

let me know what you think of her/what she says from the video

[PatrickC]

Interesting lady LP. I did find her very thoughtful and it was a take I haven't entirely heard before. I have some criticisms, but I think I'll have to mull over that on tomorrow mornings journal and cast my thoughts after. Thanks.

[LovePrevails]

I'm glad it affected you enough to be worth mulling, and look forwards to hearing your thoughts that result.

[PatrickC]

One of the overall things that struck me, was her noble attempt at bridging the gaps between men and women. However, I did find her positions to be rather muddling. Perhaps that was her ad libbing her thoughts, rather than having made considered points before hand. I have to say though, I applaud her for rejecting the term feminist.

 

Having said that, there is a lot to criticise. I think you touched on some of them already, so I'll try not to repeat them too much. One of her claims (I think), was that beauty was a pressure that men put on women, hence her large cock analogy. Quite a spin I thought on what is really a female privilege or at least a pretty woman. Whilst it's true that beauty shouldn't be the main decider within a healthy relationship, it clearly remains one of a few factors that men consider. To suggest otherwise is a silly form of denial I normally reserve for feminists. Objectification is a well-oiled feminist axe they've been grinding with men for decades. I liken it to the priest that admonishes the masturbator. The reason they admonish this behaviour is because it's both inevitable and a useful way of shaming the perpetrator. Beautiful women are most likely to acquire the most resources from men, for which they would have barely worked for themselves. They get a step up through marriage that men (even good looking men) never get and would spend a considerable time acquiring themselves. I've yet to see women marrying beneath themselves.

 

This kind of takes me onto white female privilege, which statistically puts white women into the highest privileged category than any other class of people. Ignoring these factors can only come from listening to the feminist perspective and indeed accepting some or most of their conclusions. I thought where Abi touched on areas; she didn't really go far enough. Certainly judging a woman 'only' by her looks is a poor way to judge women by men. But ignoring the way that a women judge men based only on their resources must be explored in a similar manner. Perhaps there is a part to these gender desires that are something to be negotiated between a potential couple. But that these desires should not be exclusive in their eventual decision to marry.

 

As an aside to Abi's thoughts and not necessarily something I'm accusing her of directly. I do feel that a lot of women (less so on this board), as well meaning as they often are, have a completely skewed view about their entitlements. They often consider them as a right or self-evident and forget that they are actually often making unreasonable demands of men. If I were to be fair with women, this has mostly been because of feminists holding court ideologically about how men’s resources should be managed. Since men haven't really challenged these notions much, these ideas have been able to get significant traction and promulgate into the cultural conscience. That said, I do think it's time to wake up ladies.

[LovePrevails]

Hey people, I've continued to try and find good entry points for getting feminists to take an interest in men's issues with some considerable success.

 

I wanted to continue modelling, by finding common ground, one friend started by posting this:

 

 

 

MAN: A gender egalitarian delivers an incredibly elegant critique of the current feminist movement, and why they're shoveling sand against the tide.

It's in response to actress Emma Watson's speech at the UN, where she called on men to support her in the fight for gender equality *.

(* Small print: not actual equality, feminist "equality" meaning "equality for half of the population").

http://naughtynerdess.tumblr.com/post/98184739316/an-open-letter-to-emma-watson

 

 

WOMAN: I agree with most of what she said, but I wasn't so sure about how she was portraying the pay difference between men and women. It is not so much a problem at lower levels of income, but it genuinely is true that many women in high paying roles, are paid less than their male counterparts. I don't just mean ones with families who need to take time off for their children, I mean professional women who made the decision not to have children for the sake of their career are getting paid less than a man in that same role with the same experience and qualifications.

 

ME: WOMAN it is not in evidence that women earn less than men for the same work. When it comes high paying roles as you mention, you actually have to control for 25 factors including level of education, willingess to commute long distances, willingness to relocate, willingess to work more hours at weekends, willingness to travel far from home regularly for work, whether someone took a vocational degree or a degree in something like social science or english lit, etc. to find that women do not earn less than men for similar work - actually they earn about the same for the same jobs. Never married women who have never had children actually earn slightly more (117% of) never married men who have never had children. If you want links I will direct you to them. 

 

Women tend to have a better work-life balance than men, which I consider wise, and will tend to stop chasing promotions when their income reaches +/1500,000$. I think part of the continuation of the gains of the feminist movement would actually be to encourage men to consider work-life balance more rather than be walking wallets who don't spend time with their families.

 

 

My approach is to provide facts but not so many it overloads a person and makes them walk away, and also find some common ground, without using any condescending language like "that crap has been debunked so many times." etc. which never works. I see it kind of like what Peter Boghossian says about "microinoculations" against the faith virus. There are a bunch of feminists I know who have softened on their positions over time and have said frankly "you have really changed my opinions on gender" etc.

 

the thing is what you are taking a way from a feminist is their victimhood status which is why an adversarial approach may not be effective, I find a "we're all in this together" approach convincing over time.

[Psychophant]

...about men's issues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUcoDrGvlsc&feature=youtu.be

 

Not at all, because feminists are ideologues, which means you won´t get far. If it is just a label feminist it is a gullible person, otherwis she wouldn´t have been drawn to feminism in the first place. It is much easier to prove a man with gynocentric mindset that you are a "real" man, cuz it is easy to prove that he is not a steadfast advocate for masculinity but for female´s view on masculinity and if he is not gay there is no point in bothering fellow men. In other words if he mocks other guys for not measuring up to his view on masculinity, he should better ask someone else in case you ain´t gay. Therefore you should tell him, that it is not shamefull to want it up the ass but you are straight and he should better lock somewhere else.