Guest e Yer Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 White Americans have used prejudice, among other things, to protect what they feel is their birthright entitlements to the elite privileges in this country. They fought hard in wars to earn the right to continue those privileges. They used racism to prevent non-whites from competing against them or to prevent minorities from sharing in their prosperity and affluence. What if this system that served them so well was finally revealed, in these times of economic decline, not to be theirs? What if the ideals of the United States Americans believe protected them (Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, Constitution etc.) never existed? That negotiators that ended the American Revolution (Franklin, Adams, Jay) agreed to continue the English corporation known as the Virginia Company but simply renamed it: United States. What if the United States is not a country but a corporation (thus in caps UNITED STATS) owned and run by the Central Banks (aka Federal Reserve)? What if the U.S. troops haven't been fighting to protect our freedoms but instead to debt enslave other countries to be indebted to the Central banks? What if the Great Depression was caused by irresponsible banks who took too much liberty in loaning out the gold on deposit that there wasn't enough on hand to cover all the withdrawal requests? What if the Civil war wasn't fought to free the slaves but to force the secession southern states, who shared in the debts of the nation, back into the union? What if all these "what ifs" weren't just hypothetical but true! If so, who is the real evil and enemy? The bible says "love thy neighbor." As we strive towards societies without governments, what's required are healthy, cooperative, respectful conduct with one another; maybe we should heed the advice of the bible instead of mocking it.
MrCapitalism Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 I hereby proclaim this "The Bible says X." argument in defense if religion. 1). Rhetorical question or fact statement. 2). "The Bible says (point unrelated to premise 1)" 3). Therefore GOD exists.
Wesley Posted November 11, 2013 Posted November 11, 2013 Personally, it just does not make sense to me. This is already the well-known Chewbacca Defense.
Mike Fleming Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 The bible has a lot more to say than just love thy neighbour. Do we obey all of it's commandments or just that one or just the ones that you like? And if it's just the passages that you like doesn't that make you the person who decides what society should be like rather than God? Thereby making you defacto dictator?
Guest e Yer Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 The bible has a lot more to say than just love thy neighbour. Do we obey all of it's commandments or just that one or just the ones that you like? And if it's just the passages that you like doesn't that make you the person who decides what society should be like rather than God? Thereby making you defacto dictator? The bible has a lot more to say than just love thy neighbour. Do we obey all of it's commandments or just that one or just the ones that you like? And if it's just the passages that you like doesn't that make you the person who decides what society should be like rather than God? Thereby making you defacto dictator? Dear Mike Fleming: The point isn't about the bible. It's about how White America has used and benefited from the state and how they now realize the monster they have created. No doubt, the bible, like life's parables and cultural fables, is a double-edged sword. It can be interpreted to destroy evil or good. A person with wisdom and virtue will highlight the good, virtuous passages. The bible can thus be a guide to help society during their "wanderings through and desert" to the promise land of post-statism (anarchy.) The prophesy that Jesus left with us, "I am the truth, the light, the way" is so compelling appropriate to this discussion, times and questions that anarchist are raising about how to manage society after government.
Mike Fleming Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Dear Mike Fleming: The point isn't about the bible. It's about how White America has used and benefited from the state and how they now realize the monster they have created. No doubt, the bible, like life's parables and cultural fables, is a double-edged sword. It can be interpreted to destroy evil or good. A person with wisdom and virtue will highlight the good, virtuous passages. The bible can thus be a guide to help society during their "wanderings through and desert" to the promise land of post-statism (anarchy.) The prophesy that Jesus left with us, "I am the truth, the light, the way" is so compelling appropriate to this discussion, times and questions that anarchist are raising about how to manage society after government. Dear e yer, It is quite obvious to any reasonable thinking person that the bible has a great deal of evil in it. Drowning people en masse for their sins for example. I haven't read Mein Kampfe, for example, but I bet there's probably a few good things in it amongst all the insanity. The bible isn't really any different. The entire problem that Christians seem to have is that they assume God exists. If God exists, then it's very difficult to have to conceive of him as being as evil as he is portrayed in the bible. That's why Christians lie to themselves and just pull out the good parts while ignoring the bad parts. Organised religion feeds this of course by not mentioning the bad parts to their congregation. The far simpler, and more rational method, is to consider whether this God actually exists or not. The answer that a rational person comes to is no. This God was invented by primitive, barbaric people and as such, the God is primitive and barbaric giving these people an excuse for being primitive and barbaric. Saying we should use this book as a basis for law? No. It should be mocked and scorned for what it is. We don't want a situation where people can justify bad behaviour by pointing to the bible. Kind of like how things are now. Sincerely. EDIT: if you'd like to know how law could be created in a free society this is a good lecture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz0AvdqRVnI
Guest e Yer Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Dear e yer, It is quite obvious to any reasonable thinking person that the bible has a great deal of evil in it. Drowning people en masse for their sins for example. I haven't read Mein Kampfe, for example, but I bet there's probably a few good things in it amongst all the insanity. The bible isn't really any different. The entire problem that Christians seem to have is that they assume God exists. If God exists, then it's very difficult to have to conceive of him as being as evil as he is portrayed in the bible. That's why Christians lie to themselves and just pull out the good parts while ignoring the bad parts. Organised religion feeds this of course by not mentioning the bad parts to their congregation. The far simpler, and more rational method, is to consider whether this God actually exists or not. The answer that a rational person comes to is no. This God was invented by primitive, barbaric people and as such, the God is primitive and barbaric giving these people an excuse for being primitive and barbaric. Saying we should use this book as a basis for law? No. It should be mocked and scorned for what it is. We don't want a situation where people can justify bad behaviour by pointing to the bible. Kind of like how things are now. Sincerely. EDIT: if you'd like to know how law could be created in a free society this is a good lecture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz0AvdqRVnI Dear e yer, It is quite obvious to any reasonable thinking person that the bible has a great deal of evil in it. Drowning people en masse for their sins for example. I haven't read Mein Kampfe, for example, but I bet there's probably a few good things in it amongst all the insanity. The bible isn't really any different. The entire problem that Christians seem to have is that they assume God exists. If God exists, then it's very difficult to have to conceive of him as being as evil as he is portrayed in the bible. That's why Christians lie to themselves and just pull out the good parts while ignoring the bad parts. Organised religion feeds this of course by not mentioning the bad parts to their congregation. The far simpler, and more rational method, is to consider whether this God actually exists or not. The answer that a rational person comes to is no. This God was invented by primitive, barbaric people and as such, the God is primitive and barbaric giving these people an excuse for being primitive and barbaric. Saying we should use this book as a basis for law? No. It should be mocked and scorned for what it is. We don't want a situation where people can justify bad behaviour by pointing to the bible. Kind of like how things are now. Sincerely. EDIT: if you'd like to know how law could be created in a free society this is a good lecture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz0AvdqRVnI Dear Gold Donator: Imagine if you were in prison from birth to death. All you ever knew was your cell, the prison yard, the cafeteria etc. Towards you last days, you decided to write a book about life in general and the world. Your interpretation of everything factual would be drawn from your first hand experiences in the prison. Now you could extrapolate universal theories of mankind and be right on target; but the point is you can only draw from what you know. Our planet is our prison so to speak. We exist in what is unconceivable to us, an infinite universe. Many elements in the chemistry atomic table are missing but could exist somewhere in the universe. Now I know in pure philosophy is have to reject what you can't prove. I'm not being bound by pure philosophy for the sake of this particular discussion. The bible, like mankind, contains good and evil. It contains gems of philosophy, prophecy, and stories that are parables. For instance, the parable of Moses leading the Israelites out of slavery and to the promise land took 40 years. It took 40 years so that the current generation of freed Israelites, too old and broken from bondage, could die off and allow the next untainted generation to start in the promise land with a clean slate. This sounds very much like our liberation from the bondage as a debt slaves to a world of anarchy. Stefan mentions in his podcast that he thinks it may take a generation or two before the promise land of anarchy is reached. Many of the liberated Israelites wanted to leave the hot desert filled with uncertainty for basic needs and return to the comforts of Egypt and slavery. This sounds like the hesitations and concerns some people are having about abandoning the state. Once the promise land is reached, we do not need to re-invent a way of governing ourselves like the way the American founding fathers' idealistic system brought us right back to square one. The 10 commandments is a good start. Love thy neighbor would prevent racism. Those who live by the sword, will die by the sword would prevent an empire built by the economies of the military industrial complex. The enormous sin committed by the U.S. in their invasion of Iraq and the murder committed is, as I speak, being paid with the death of a nation. The bible says the wages of sin is death. The sin of the Iraq invasion has demonstrated to U.S. citizens just how evil and heartless its government can be. That's the good part. That's why more and more people are tuned into forums like this. For the bible says: all good things come from evil for those who believe!
Wesley Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 http://www.godstenlaws.com/ten-commandments/#.UoNyuiedfUI Thou shalt have no other gods before me Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. 1. There are no gods, so this is erroneous at best 2. God doesn't exist, but he is jealous. So if you praise Cthulhu, he will get you!!! 3. God dammit. I just took the guy's name "in vain". His feelings get hurt. 4. Hmm, so if I work to make sure I have enough money then I'm bad. Awesome. 5. These were evil people. I do not honor them 6. Yay! a good one! This is covered by UPB though. 7. Um, sure it may be bad or at least dishonest. However I am wondering what the punishment would be. I'll consider this a maybe, just to give them the best possible rating. 8. Also a good one, and covered under UPB. 9. Fraud would be covered under UPB, but I'm not sure all lying is evil. I will consider this a maybe as well. 10. Um... So I want nice things I'm bad? I think this is a fail. (By the way- this totally views slaves and women as possessions which is pretty messed up). Oh wait! There's MORE! A. Love thy neighbor How do you know? What if my neighbor is evil? What if he is a murderer? Love is just granted to people and not earned by virtue? This would be another false one. B. Those who live by the sword, will die by the sword I think you misunderstand war. It is often a form of suicidality and this would prevent nothing. I would recommend going here: and scrolling all the way to the bottom to listen to the audio book of Lloyd Demause's The Origins of War in Child Abuse. C. The wages of sin is death Uh oh! I said the lord's name in vain earlier. This is defined as a terrible sin. Looks like I need to die.... D. All good things come from evil for those who believe There are many good people here who have suffered terrible abuse and are suffering. Good things come despite the abuse, never because of the abuse. Evil people do evil and often are rewarded. Bush is set for life after ordering the deaths of millions on bullshit evidence. I have a lot of anger toward this one. So, out of the 14 proposed rules you gave, 2 are true and covered by a rational system. 2 are possible and maybe could have breach of contract or fraud implied. So lets says 4 out of 14 rules are good. This is about a 28.6%. Thus, I think this would be an excellent system and would be much, much better and have much larger percentage of rational rules. Or we could just use the "binding of pure philosophy" as you derided it would be far better than this proposal...
Guest e Yer Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 Dear Gold Donator: I see picking, choosing and interpreting bible passage as how we pick and choose friends, websites, such as this one, and how we interpret images such as ink spots and vines on a telephone pole that looks like Jesus on the Cross. Our decision and perceptions are based on where our heart is. If you are virtuous, you will pick bible passages that reinforce virtue as you've experienced or defined it. If you are evil, you will look for passages that justify an evil act. President George W. Bush, for instance, mobilized a voting block of Evangelical Christians to vote for him the first time and again the second time despite all the murder he committed in the name of this country. Bush even said God told him to invade Iraq. I personally have experienced miracles in my life through some of the positive instructions from the bible during sermon at the church I attend. I'm mainly interested in the discussions of the evilness in the state as it provides an awakening for the people who are the real engine of change. As long as the masses remain ignorant and brain-washed, the state will get away with theft and murder. I assume many callers to FDR are closet Christians. They like Stefan's ideas, as I do, but know that he is an atheist so they don't want to piss him off. I think Christianity is supportive of anarchism. The Romans, real hardcore statist, offered to spare Jesus the torture and death on the condition he refute his claim to be the son of God. He declined. So I'm not trying to covert any atheist to Christianity (and I admit I've done a poor job if that was the intent.) I'm just openly Christian, in spirit and heart, and enjoy having found a community of people who think like I do that the state is evil and enslaving and that we could do better without it.
Mike Fleming Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 I see picking, choosing and interpreting bible passage as how we pick and choose friends, websites, such as this one, and how we interpret images such as ink spots and vines on a telephone pole that looks like Jesus on the Cross. Our decision and perceptions are based on where our heart is. If you are virtuous, you will pick bible passages that reinforce virtue as you've experienced or defined it. If you are evil, you will look for passages that justify an evil act. So why not pick any random book and pick and choose? What about all the other religious books? If you know what's right and wrong, why do you need the bible? If you don't know what's right and wrong, how is the bible going to help, since it can clearly and has been justified for evil? in spirit and heart, and enjoy having found a community of people who think like I do that the state is evil and enslaving and that we could do better without it. Many people here feel the same way about your God. Yes, he is a fictional character, just as the state is a fictional idea, but the erroneous belief in him causes a great deal of harm. He is the ultimate totalitarian dictator.
Wesley Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 I'm not picking and choosing. You picked what you thought were good passages. I analyzed to see if they were actually good passages. That is all.
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