Talking to bro about not hitting his kids.

[son272]

I've witnessed my brother hit his young son (now 5y.o.) a handful of times. He just gets angry and snaps when he's not listened to, then he yells and hits. The circumstances can be very minor, like when he's ordering the child to stand still for some reason, and the hitting can be rather severe, I have seen him open-handed hit the kid in the face, although not hard enough to leave a mark.

 

Other family members see it (including the moms of each) and look the other way. I've caught him red-handed and urged he find better solutions, mentioned "Peaceful Parenting" and this show and he's usually like "thanks for the tip! you're probably right. (talk to me when you have kids)".

 

I've talked for hours with our parents to see if they will support this cause, and they just justify it, dismiss it. They have both listened to Stef. One of them said "well, stef has his way of raising a kid, and your brother has his way... who can say which one is better?" I'm like "RESEARCH, SCIENCE!! They have said conclusively!" and when I present the info it's ignored. These people are too busy consuming hours of junk tv and video games everyday to spend 30 minutes reading about peacefully raising a child. The least you could say about all the other adults is that they simply don't see it as truly harmful.

 

So what do I do now? I have a good relationship with my (older) bro, he's open to good conversation about anything, although I fear this will feel like an attack, and he'll shrug it off like he did before. I've spent a few hours combing the forums for advice and have collected a few links (two videos Stef made and recommended, and a link titled "10 reasons not to hit your child"). I don't want to flood him with too much info.

 

My plan is clarify with my parents for the last time that I do not have their support and let them know how that feels, and then simply email my bro and his wife saying something like "Look, I've seen you hit your kid more than once. I've been studying this peaceful parenting stuff and the more I think about it, the more upsetting it is to me. Here's some links, please spend a little time thinking about it, and please promise to put an end to it"

 

Thoughts? Right approach? He lives nearby, would a visit be more appropriate? I'm not confident in my ability to "argue" this issue, especially with big bro, but I can't put it off any longer. And if the conversation is fruitless? Do I then threaten to call the cops?

[LovePrevails]

Ok I'm sorry that you are in such a distressing position, that is really hard!

 

 

My advice to you is focus of discussing ALTERNATIVES to spanking and showing how they work

don't focus on why one should not spank, although you can bring that stuff in telling people what not to do leaves a vaccume of what to do

 

There is a chapter in How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk detailing 7 alternatives to punsihment you could scan the comics and print them out 

 

google alternatives to punishment on attachment parenting sites and get to the point where you really know what you're talking about then broach the conversation - if necessary you can as him to give examples of situations where he thinks it's appropriate to hit and say "well how about you did this instead...." so you can demonstrate the benefits

 

if you teach your child to express their emotions constructively you will be giving them that skill

same goes for reasoning, negotiation etc. ---- these are advanatages they will have for life

[Kevin Beal]

First off, thank you for doing what you can to stop child abuse in your own personal life. You do more than almost every activist toward achieving freedom when you do that. It takes courage and I applaud you for it

 

If you can be sure that he's not going to take his aggression out on his son, then you can point out how incredibly cowardly and petty it is of him.

 

I'm not so convinced that calmly explaining these things to people is the best approach. If they listen, it's usually short lived. Instead, being unrelenting and assertive in the face of corruption is my go to.

 

I think by being nice and calm you aren't really communicating the gravity of the situation. They can just keep that grand chasm of avoidance between themselves and what they are doing.

 

Given all that, I think the idea you have about how to approach it is a good one.

 

Best of luck

[LovePrevails]

"Connection before Correction" is a motto of positive parenting

 

I see no reason why the same doesn't apply to grown up kids, in my opinion and experience brow-beating leads to resentment which makes people less likely to take anything you have to say on board.

 

It is my opinion that people want to feel like you are on "their side" not "against them" before they seriously consider anything you have to contribute - that's why in my experience it is most important to give people the benefit of the doubt when you want them to change their behaviour

maybe it's wrong, maybe it's immature, maybe it's cowardly, that people need this, but if you want the right strategy I believe it is ethos - them believing you have character credibility. Sorry to contradict Kevin - I believe offering solutions "do"s is more effective than offering merely "don't"s -

This is also how the books on peaceful parenting recommend dealing with our children .

[Tony Crowe]

Can you tell us how you felt at the moment you saw it happen and how you felt later on when you thought about it?

 

I have a good relationship with my (older) bro, he's open to good conversation about anything, although I fear this will feel like an attack, and he'll shrug it off like he did before. I've spent a few hours combing the forums for advice and have collected a few links (two videos Stef made and recommended, and a link titled "10 reasons not to hit your child"). I don't want to flood him with too much info.

 

Also, can you help me understand how you can have a good relationship and also be "shugged off" at the same time?

 

You don't have to do anything right now. It's a volatile situation for anyone to be in so be careful. k?

[Kevin Beal]

Sorry to contradict Kevin - I believe offering solutions "do"s is more effective than offering merely "don't"s -

This is also how the books on peaceful parenting recommend dealing with our children .

You can be on someone's side while being assertive and uncompromising. It is to the OP's brother's benefit to not hit his boy. Continuing to hit him erodes his brother's capacity to fix the relationship with his son the more he does it.

 

Being nice is not the same thing as being on someone's side. In fact, it can be enabling behavior. Likewise, letting somebody have it is not necessarily being against that person either. It's a false dilemma.

 

I am not aware of any person who has convinced more people to stop spanking than Stef, and he doesn't use kid gloves with people or do NVC. He is treats it like the very serious matter that it is.

[son272]

Can you tell us how you felt at the moment you saw it happen and how you felt later on when you thought about it?

 

 

 

Shocked. It's always been in front of our parents when I've seen it, and I look at them wide-eyed as if to say "Did you see that?! Say something!" but they don't. And I guess when my appeal to their authority hits a brick wall, I'm silenced. It's a bit cowardly, I know, but I just have not felt prepared emotionally to tackle the issue while they sit on their hands. I'm the youngest, the black sheep, and I'm used to being ignored.

 

Then he'll leave, and I'll say "mom, dad, did you see that shit? This is not right! Are you not outraged as I am?" and sometimes these discussions will go on for hours. I just get angrier and angrier because I see the kid changing for the worse, I do more and more research on the likely outcomes, and no matter how I can get family to agree it is very wrong, even criminal, I can't get anyone to help intervene.

 

 

 

Also, can you help me understand how you can have a good relationship and also be "shugged off" at the same time?

 

I just mean my brother and I are buddies, we play games together, argue philosophy and religion, have similar interests. About any other issue I would consider him easily available to talk to.

 

 

There is a chapter in How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk detailing 7 alternatives to punsihment you could scan the comics and print them out 

 

 

Yeah, it's the first book I gave them when they were ready to have kids. They know I've read and studied more on child development  and parenting than any of the parents in my family, and still get no traction when I object to their practices.

[LovePrevails]

 

I am not aware of any person who has convinced more people to stop spanking than Stef, and he doesn't use kid gloves with people or do NVC. He is treats it like the very serious matter that it is.

 

Stef speaks to thousands and thousands of people and if you take that into account his conversion rate is not huge

it's not the same as speaking to people one to one

 

 

as someone who works with individuals and couples to improve their relationships I have seen that people don't care what you know until they know that you care

 

a model is intervening in mistreating their child in public

with a stranger "I can see you are stressed out...  but this..." is much more likely to get on target than "you know what you are doing here is evil?"

 

Yes by all means have your values, have your principles, and stick by them

but if you want to intervene you have to do so at a level of consciousness above the person who you are intervening with's enough to pull them up

but not so high that you can't reach them

 

this isn't about having an ax to grind - if that's the approach you want to take people look at you like you're from out of space because you are not peaking their language. They might brush you off as an arrogant asshole, a know-it-all, a busy body, or anything they can dismiss you by. You can walk away saying "well I did my bit, they're just evil," but that won't help the child. Put the child first - if this approach doesn't work there is always the option of going more hard line afterwards, but if that is the first approach you take it's very hard to regain trust.

[conscioussoul]

Thoughts? Right approach? He lives nearby, would a visit be more appropriate? I'm not confident in my ability to "argue" this issue, especially with big bro, but I can't put it off any longer. And if the conversation is fruitless? Do I then threaten to call the cops?

 

The truth is that this is a difficult situation with no easy answer. 

 

From the legal standpoint (depending on where you live), you may not have the choice: some actions (like hitting in the face) are considered child abuse and you are legally binded to report it if you see it happening. But if your goal is to help that family, then that option is not really a solution, because the resulting trauma for the child can be worst than the initial problem.

 

Intervening in somebody else's parenting habits is always delicate. You are going to meet resistance, and the more you push, the more resistance you will get. 

Most parents who use spanking and yelling do so because this is how they themselves have been parented; they had to internalize and "justify" their own childhood suffering in order to cope with it. So when you tell them that they could do things differentely, you are challenging them to revise their own childhood, to accept they may have been hit for nothing by their own parents.  In addition, accepting the idea that spanking can be damaging means that they have to come to term with the idea that they have been damaging their children all these years before. This is hard! The guilt can be so powerful that the mind may simpy resist and go into denial - no matter the arguments or proof you give - because acceptance is just psychologically distressing.

 

I found these 3 attitudes can really help:

1) Speak in "I" about yourself; how it makes you feel when you witness something, how it breaks your heart, how you feel uneasy, etc. Do not put blame. Do not accuse. Do not say "you...". Speak in "I". Show your vulnerability rather than attack his choices or behavior. And NEVER stop yourself from being authentic and honest IN THE MOMENT. So if you witness something.. don't stay there in shocked silence. Be real - not angry, but show you are shocked. Be authentic and vulnerable.

Exemple:

Brother: SLAP!

You: "Ouch. I hate it when I see this punishment going.. it breaks my heart. I feel terrible looking at this. I feel as if I was the one who got slapped."

 

2) Listen to the parent's justifications or explenation, the "why" they do it. Find the core, the desire to help the child grow, the fear that they may not have learn something that the parent thinks is needed to learn for their own good, etc. Then voice it back, name the fear, name the emotion. Show you undestand and agree.

Brother: "Sorry you had to see this, but he has to listen to me when I talk. It's unacceptable that I get ignored."

You: "You don't like to be ignored. It gets on your nerves?"

Brother: "Yes it does. He doesn't respect me."

You: "It seems important for you to get that respect from your son. Do you feel like sometimes you are loosing that respect?"

As you progress toward the "why" of the behavior you may gently open the door to a conversation on alternatives - because now he feels his needs are understood.

 

3) Next time, show, don't tell. It's much more effective to demonstrate a different way of doing things than to lecture someone about it.

Next time, when you see your brother about to get angry because his son isn't listening, step in:

Kneel down at the kid's height. Lock eyes. Gently grap his shoulder with a hand. Smile. Say "Hey buddy. I know you are having a great time right now, and you don't feel like stopping... but daddy just spoke to you. Let's hear what he wants together okay?"

If he can see how effective this is first hand, it's the best way to get him to actually ask for advices.

 

This is all assuming that your brother is rough, but not abusive.

I am not convinced of that, from your posts, but with no additional context, it's hard to say for now. It could be that you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg and that things are much worst in private. If that's the case, then it's no longer about teaching better parenting ways, it may be a case for reporting abuse or anger management.

 

Hope this helps a little!Nicolas, Family Life Educator