Help with understanding virtue

[meeri]

Apologies if this has been dealt with before, I did a search but couldn't find anything in the archives.

 

I listened to 'An Introduction to Virtue' series and I'm unsure about something.

 

Stef says that in most cases it's cowardice to hold ourselves to higher values than those we interact with, that it's a form of exploitation. Why is that?

 

I'm thinking it's because we can't claim to be virtuous if we interact with people who are not? For example, if I say I'm against violence but still see my parents, then in effect I'm not against violence as I'm accepting their behaviour. But why is it exploitation?

 

I would very much appreciate any clarification.

[Kevin Beal]

Hi meeri!

 

I don't know the answer to your question unfortunately, but I'm very curious and I'll let you know if I figure it out listening to it tonite.

 

Here is that series for anyone else who's wondering:

 

1867 – An Introduction to Virtue - Part 1

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1867_introduction_to_virtue_part_1.mp3

 

1868 – An Introduction to Virtue - Part 2

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1868_introduction_to_virtue_part_2.mp3

 

1869 – An Introduction to Virtue - Part 3

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1869_introduction_to_virtue_part_3.mp3

 

1877 – An Introduction to Virtue Part 4

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1877_introduction_to_virtue_part_4.mp3

[meeri]

Awesome thanks! He talks about this at the end of part 3

[Kevin Beal]

First he says "It's most often a form of cowardice to pretend you have higher values than the those you are interacting with" (higher values or higher integrity). And adds that it's a form of exploitation. After that he says that it's a form of cowardice to hold yourself to "higher standards" than those you are interacting with.

 

So, how I sort of interpreted it is that the person who's holding themselves to higher standards is not the one exploiting other people, but actually the one being exploited. In this case, the person is not being exploited like someone who has no idea that their credit card information was stolen, but instead are in denial about their own exploitation.

 

So in the violent parents example, it would be a form of cowardice to pretend that when you hold yourself to that higher standard than the violent parents, that it's out of virtue that you do that (as opposed to confronting them about it). The pretense at virtue (higher standards) being a cover for that person's fear of confronting their parents. (The cowardice being the pretense and not the fear).

 

These people who say that we ought treat our parents better than they ever treated us because that's a good thing, and if you don't do that you are some kind of selfish petty person, (aside from the blatant projection) are being cowards because it has nothing to do with virtue and everything to do with their own avoidance, culpability and co-dependency regarding the issue. And what's worse is that they are taking it out on people who have decided to face their own avoidance, because we show them for the cowards they are.

 

If they did not pretend that what they were doing was a virtue and instead were honest with themselves that they don't confront their parents out of fear, then they aren't cowards. They are sane, lol.

 

Holding yourself to higher standards in general, I think, is a very good thing. Upping the game. It's just not good when it's a pretense covering up cowardice.

 

I hope that makes sense. If I've misunderstood your question please let me know

[meeri]

Thanks Kevin!

 

Yes, I think this makes a lot more sense now. So, 'we shouldn't hold ourselves to higher standards than those we interact with' means that we don't 'owe' virtue, it needs to be earned. Just like it's not virtuous to be honest with a guy who breaks into our house and asks where our wife is, it's not just to give violent parents love and affection.

 

Just like when we honestly tell the guy where our wife is, we're not doing it out of integrity to honesty but out of fear and lack of love to our wife; when we give violent parents love and affection (by their definition), it's not because we're just and virtuous but because we're afraid. Saying so would be hypocritical, a form of cowardice.

 

I still understand that it would be me doing the exploitation but I may be missing something. Perhaps it's the exploitation inherent in dishonesty and hypocrisy? By seeing violent parents and saying we do it out of love is exploitive because we are using them to manage our anxiety of confronting them?

[PatrickC]

 By seeing violent parents and saying we do it out of love is exploitive because we are using them to manage our anxiety of confronting them?

 

That's an interesting way of looking at it meeri. But I would say that was more to do with fear (of them), rather than exploitation (of them). If that helps.

 

There  might be a shared exploitation, whereby you ignore their actions, but they provide you with resources. Having said that, I think at a deeper level, both parties know they are exploiting eacother.

[Wesley]

That's an interesting way of looking at it meeri. But I would say that was more to do with fear (of them), rather than exploitation (of them). If that helps.

 

There  might be a shared exploitation, whereby you ignore their actions, but they provide you with resources. Having said that, I think at a deeper level, both parties know they are exploiting eacother.

Hmmmm... I am confused by "shared exploitation" as a term. I would think it would be almost an exchange of value in a weird way. Like they both ignore or change their values so they can retain comfort that everyone is virtuous enough to see.

 

I am sure it is possible, but I am having trouble figuring out a situation where mutual and chosen exploitation could exist.

[PatrickC]

Yes, I hear you Wesley. It was just a thought experiment I had regarding exploitation.