Porn and honesty

[Zava]

I have deleted this message because I feel it was too personal and not worth leaving up here... To the few who shared some personal experiences here, I thank you tremendously as well as to the folks who took time to privately message me. Thank you.

 

PS It's funny and odd that every contribution here has received a negative "rating" except Stefan's question which he never elaborated upon as well. 

[ThomasDoubts]

Assuming this is all accurate and unbiased, and I have no reason to believe it's not; I think you are right to point out the real problem.  Honesty. 

 

I really feel where you're coming from.  Unsettling, no doubt.  It's like you climb way out on a limb, and out of happenstance realize you may be climbing on a rotten limb.  What else might he be lying to me about right?  How am I to know if he only lies about porn, without putting everything else under greater scrutiny.  What would be his reaction if I start digging around looking for damning evidence of lying about other things?  Would I be justified doing that?  I'm reminded of a scene from the show House where a vegan couple in an "open relationship" comes into the clinic; the woman explains to House that her boyfriend's stool is floating, and she says it shouldn't be.  Later House explains to her that her boyfriend is cheating.  She doesn't get upset; says she understands, men have needs and she's not always around, etc.  House says not on you, on the diet; he's been eating meat.  She freaks out, breaks up with him, goes out on a date with House...  The point being; are you making a mountain out of a molehill (porn), or are you making a mountain out of a mountain (lying)?

 

I'd be curious, and clearly you are too, why he'd lie about porn when you explicitly explained it isn't an issue to you.  Maybe he's trying to protect you from feeling insecure about him watching porn.  Maybe he has suspicions that you were being disingenuous when you said you didn't care, trying to entrap him.  Maybe he's ashamed of it.  Maybe he thinks you'd think differently of him.  Maybe he's a closet porn addict.  Maybe he's unsatisfied, but unwilling/hesitant to talk to you about it.  Maybe he wants to be punished.  Maybe he just wants a little jerk off session every now and again, without it ever having to be a conversation topic, like a small island of privacy.  Maybe he'd tell you anything he thinks you want to hear.  I don't know, I'm just throwing out random possibilities, but this, I think is the important question.

 

I got caught making love to my left hand by an ex who had your exact opposite attitude towards porn.  It turned into a huge blowout fight, especially when she attempted to shame me for it as she was walking away.  I told her, well at this point you might as well stick around for the grand finale, lend a helping hand .  Not well recieved at all...   She was against porn, but accepted or "permitted" me to watch it, and attempted to shame me if/when she caught me.  Talk about mixed messages...   I hope you aren't sending mixed messages, and it doesn't appear to me that you are from your post. 

 

I tried to put myself in your shoes and think what I would want to say (not that this is right, just my thoughts)

 

"I don't buy your bull about checking out the societies trends in porn.  I don't buy your bull about it making you sad and morose, because this would cause you to not look at it.  I told you I don't care if you do it.  I told you I don't care if we talk about it often, or not at all.  I have been 100% open and honest and curious with you(if this is the case).  I'm not mad that you've been looking at porn, I'm mad that you've been lying to me.  Either be honest with me regarding porn, or admit that you've been lying, and we agree to keep your thoughts/actions regarding porn your own and private.  What is, and will always be unacceptable to me is dishonesty.  If you decide to be honest with me about it, I'll be ready to either talk or not talk about it.  If you decide to maintain the story that your porn history is some kind of market research, empathy practice, I'm unconviced."

 

When you hit new tab in Firefox it brings up the 9 most often visited sites, not the nine most recent, I'm pretty sure.  I know this because that's the quickest way for me to find my porn, and some FDR.  Perhaps I'm being dismissive to his side of the story, but as you tell it, I'm a skeptic.  I hope I haven't been too insensitive, tossing in some lame humor, but that's me.  I really do feel your pain though.  Once you set a standard with someone called complete honesty, a crack in the wall could foreshadow a bursting dam.  On the other hand, maybe you can grap and handful of wet concrete and slap it in the crack, and everything be ok.  I should say though, given my relationship history, I feel like the fat guy selling a weight loss plan.  Nonetheless, I'm sorry for the upheaval you're feeling about being lied to.  I think you were right to say it's something you need to talk to him about, and I also think you were right to not do so in an overly emotional state so

[ThatAtheistPlace]

I know that you'd prefer responses from men, but I would just like to say that you are doing absolutely everything right.  For some reason, I felt that if I were in the situation, my initial thought would be to have some porn on when he comes home and see what his true reactions are to your watching it.  But, it sounds like this is way deeper than just letting him know you're cool with it.

 

Instead, it may be beneficial to ask him what his parents thought about sex, masturbation and porn.  It's like he's so used to telling his mom, "I was just scratching my thigh!" ... "I'm just holding those magazines for the neighbors!" etc...  It's a pattern that he's continuing today with you, perhaps?  It may not be that he is a pathological liar all around, or something that extreme, but parents can treat sexuality in such a cruel, obtuse way.  I can't imagine that he's learned how to be open and honest about his.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[NeoEclectic]

I know I should be talking to him right now about this but I suddenly don't feel able or comfortable at least not right now.

 

I guess that makes two of you then.

 

He likes porn, but doesn't feel comfortable talking about it.

 

How does him watching porn affect you? And why is it any of your business? You're not engaged or married.

 

Do you want to say it's a trust issue? Have you divulged all of the skeletons in your closet to him?

 

If you think he's lying then just confront him. If you don't like his response you can decide to just let it go or move on.

[ThatAtheistPlace]

Wow, Neo.... did you read her post at all???

[CrazyCanuck]

He's lying because he's addicted.  Porn is very difficult to stop watching because it's easy accessible more than any other drug.  On top of that porn is practically free unless you want to pay for it.  You must continue to confront him firmly or move on.  If he's watching porn that much it will be difficult to stop and as time goes by it will get worse.  I am going to guess you don't have sex with him that much and it will probably decrease if hasn't started yet.

[ThatAtheistPlace]

I don't think it's the porn, Canuck.  I really think that it's more the obfuscation that he's addicted to or just used to.  It's like, evoking her anger at catching him is the "release" if you will, not the porn itself.  Speaks of serious mommy issues, but I agree, Canuck.  Be firm in what you know.  Whenever someone wants you to be confused, Zava... that's so much worse than them just getting caught in a lie.  So yeh, stay firm and get him to counseling.  If he's unwilling or still in denial, ruuunnnn!  He will only make you start to question your sanity and intentions.

[Stefan Molyneux]

Did he grow up with a single mother?

[CrazyCanuck]

I don't think it's the porn, Canuck.  I really think that it's more the obfuscation that he's addicted to or just used to.  It's like, evoking her anger at catching him is the "release" if you will, not the porn itself.  Speaks of serious mommy issues, but I agree, Canuck.  Be firm in what you know.  Whenever someone wants you to be confused, Zava... that's so much worse than them just getting caught in a lie.  So yeh, stay firm and get him to counseling.  If he's unwilling or still in denial, ruuunnnn!  He will only make you start to question your sanity and intentions.

 

 

 

 

And how you know?  Have even research it?  I am just asking.

[Fel1x]

I'd really like responses from men on this in particular issue but any are gladly

I have a similar problem to your boyfriend and I am a child of a single mother. My spouse considers watching porn and masturbating as something which undermines our relationship. I had promised her that I'll do my best in not watching porn.She then asked me a few weeks later if i had watched porn. I had, but I lied to her and she asked or many times that are you sure. I said no. Every time I said no I felt terrible anxiety, tension in my chest, cold sweat, stress and panic. I wanted to escape the situation. I tried telling her later that I lied, but when I tried I felt the exact same emotions as when lying before. The situation was overwhelming and I just couldn't tell her even though I wanted to. I've tried to tell her for months, but I can't. It overwhelms me every time I try and as a whole it brings up lots of emotional trauma and pain.I'm not equating your boyfriend to me, but the way you described your boyfriend sounded a lot like me.

[Tyler Durden]

Ok, so the first time you talked to him about porn he said that he had no interest in it. Then you had to find out for yourself that he had lied about that, and when you confronted him he told you that he only looks at it now and then to see "what kind of trending is going on in society". And then you catch him looking at it again, or well, probably.

 

My guess is that he's ashamed of it, even though you told him that it wasn't a big deal to you. And apparantly his way of dealing with shame is denial. When you confronted him with evidence he couldn't deny it anymore and he decided to minimize it as much as possible with a story that is, in my opinion, pure bullshit. Or well, he may actually have these thoughts, but more as a side effect, it's not the reason he's watching.

 

So what I would take out if this if I were you is that when he's ashamed of something honesty is not his top priority. And this time it's porn, but the next time it could easily be something else, and you will have no way of knowing. How you proceed from here is completely up to you of course, but in my experience relationships with people who don't put honesty above everything else are more trouble than they're worth.

[Zava]

 I have deleted this message because I feel it was too personal and not worth leaving up here... To the few who shared some personal experiences here, I thank you tremendously as well as to the folks who took time to privately message me. Thank you.

[ThatAtheistPlace]

Stef has a greeeeeat video on this: http://youtu.be/nIXyR_C8dFs

 

I appreciate you taking the time to outline as much as you did and I'm so sorry that you're having to go through such a confusing period in your relationship!  I completely understand that anxiety of not knowing whether to trust your eyes or your boyfriend, but the issue then, is not what you saw, it sounds like.  More so, that it is the fact that you feel an inability to tell him what you thought you saw.  Usually when this happens, it feels that we will be attacked in some way?  Is that the case?  Even if you feel like he will withdraw when delving into the conversation, that withdrawal can feel just as hurtful.  Is this what you fear about discussing your anxiety about what you saw?

 

Another thought is that maybe because he witnessed his father keeping secrets from his mother and that the revelation of those secrets lead to that whole kitchen scene... maybe he associated keeping information that he feels is hurtful away from you with protecting you in some way?  I wonder if his mother is the type to insist that she can be told something, only to get upset when she IS told?  My mother was very much like that.  "Oh, honey, I won't be mad.  You can tell me anything." ***drop some truth***, "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID THAT TO ME!!"  ...kind of thing?

 

That may explain why your attempts to show him how calm you can be about it force him deeper into a lie?  I was that way for quite some time, so I can completely understand how your boyfriend and Felix may have felt.

 

I know that it's draining to write these things out, but I sincerely hope some of the ideas (not the bashing from people who can't be bothered to read your entire post) can help in some way.

[PatrickC]

Hi Vava,

 

Glad you're beginning to talk about your history together and seriously considering therapy.

 

I'm curious, what's been your experience with people lying to you?

[Fel1x]

Hi Vava,Glad you're beginning to talk about your history together and seriously considering therapy.I'm curious, what's been your experience with people lying to you?

Hi, I have a long history with lying, particularly with my mother.I used to practice trumpet playing when I was a teenager. My mother was pushing me to practice, constantly reminding and asking if I had practiced. So I told her to stop bugging me about practicing and she then promised not to. A few days later she would be doing the same thing again. The same thing happened tens of times. I started to lie to her that I had practiced even though I hadn't. It felt really awful. If I told her that I hadn't practiced, she would give me a lecture about how I'll thank her later for pushing me to practice. The truth was that every time she walked past my room I would feel fear that she'll remind me and this continued for years and years. I also felt guilty for not practicing.I resented practicing and I was essentially forced to lie and to make up stories of how I had practiced. This happened on a daily basis and it felt terrible every time.Wow, I didn't realise that I was trained to make up stories of feelings and thoughts I never had and to suppress those I really had. Well, this might be a story too, so who knows. At least the feelings were real and I couldn't be honest even though I wanted to.

[Zava]

 I have deleted this message because I feel it was too personal and not worth leaving up here... To the few who shared some personal experiences here, I thank you tremendously as well as to the folks who took time to privately message me. Thank you.

[Wesley]

He admitted that when he was younger he'd look at porn in the basement when he was younger but would never masturbate there, instead he'd take the memory of what he saw and masturbate to it upstairs in his room in private but it wasn't a regular thing. He said he would masturbate while thinking of real women he met in his life more often than anything to do with porn. Isn't that harder to admit than looking at porn?? I mean, wouldn't women be more threatened by real women than the less attainable ones in porn?

 

To be clear, he said he has never ever masturbated while looking at porn, ever. I find it difficult to believe but I think I have to. I do not get the sense that he is lying to me intentionally or at all. However, I still don't understand why he'd look at it later in life on a weekly basis to feel "morose". Maybe this is something we can address in therapy. I just get this sense that I'm trying to pin the truth down and it's squirming away and I don't like that feeling. It's not like I want to roast him over the coals. I just want to understand.

mo·rose

məˈrōs,mô-/

adjective

adjective: morose

1.

sullen and ill-tempered.

 

What age was "younger"?

 

When was he first exposed to porn?

 

What would his parents say if they caught him looking at porn?

 

Did he have to lie and cover-up his porn watching?

 

What about sexual feelings in general, did he need to cover them up?

 

Did he ever see anything sexually inappropriate of his parents when he was a kid?

 

What/when was his first sexual experience?

[Zava]

 I have deleted this message because I feel it was too personal and not worth leaving up here... To the few who shared some personal experiences here, I thank you tremendously as well as to the folks who took time to privately message me. Thank you.

[BrianBrian]

Well its quite confusing and makes me feel rather unsettled and suspicious. He said he looks at porn to keep up with the trends them you said.he only looks at average porn. That seems a bit contradictory because what is trending is usually the tail end of fringe as it is in fashion. If he were really wanting to measure the pulse of porn watchers the fringe seems like an important aspect to consider and study.

 

More details and explanation of what he means by morose and why he feels pity feels important. Also how he feels about the sexual relationship between his parents might shed some light on tge issue but it feels to me like a black hole of repression and unknowledge. The part where you are always.the one to engage in meaningful thoughtful topics makes me suspect that whatever he contributes to your topics is based on what he thinks you want to hear or motivated by something unknown.

 

He sounds not at all curious about what is behind this wall of his. This lack of curiousity and lack of initiative in sparking intimate topics makes me wonder how accurately and honestly you are measuring your relationship with him.

[Fel1x]

Did he grow up with a single mother?

Could you elaborate on what you mean?

[PatrickC]

Wow, I didn't realise that I was trained to make up stories of feelings and thoughts I never had and to suppress those I really had. Well, this might be a story too, so who knows. At least the feelings were real and I couldn't be honest even though I wanted to.

That was an interesting catch for you Fel1x. Sorry to hear that happened to you growing up. But what a great piece of insight for you.

[CrazyCanuck]

 I mean, wouldn't women be more threatened by real women than the less attainable ones in porn?

 

 

 

Actually porn is more threatening because it can be very addictive for many people.  Unless a guy can have as many women for sex as he wants, porn will win.  Porn has many women in them, maybe in the thousands.  I read an article where a man with his partner had sex frequently but he would be too tired sometimes.  However if he has a new naked woman he wouldn't be too tired.  With porn there are so many new women so he will get addicted to it.  OxyContin is produced when one has sex this also plays a major role.

 

Anyways time will always tell.

Well its quite confusing and makes me feel rather unsettled and suspicious. He said he looks at porn to keep up with the trends them you said.he only looks at average porn.  

 

 

 

What is average porn?  

[Guest Exceptionalist]

What is average porn?  

 

 

Something the average woman can relate to. E. g. the usual boring sexual intercourse.

[Fel1x]

I’m so sorry you are stuck in that impossible situation. I feel like you and your partner have a clear issue you can work on. At least you can admit to her that you find porn useful, as a release. Did you find out why it bothers her in particular? How does it “undermine” the relationship in and of itself? If you are busy expending all your sexual energy with porn while sexually ignoring her, I agree that is undermining but, it is a clear, common problem you can both tackle together I think. I just feel like mine is so murky, I don’t know where to begin

My impossible situation has most likely to do with the impossible situation my mother put me in when I was teenager. Truth or lie, I suffer. I think that porn for me is not a useful release, because I use it as a way to reduce anxiety. It's like postponing dealing with the issue at hand and not talking about it with my spouse. So in that way it's dishonest to her and me and it drifts us apart and hurts the relationship.I feel numb and guilty during and after watching and/or masturbating to porn. I'm not able to pinpoint where the numbness comes from. Why would I do it when it provokes guilt and numbness? It certainly doesn't relieve anxiety but worsens it.

[BrianBrian]

Actually porn is more threatening because it can be very addictive for many people.  Unless a guy can have as many women for sex as he wants, porn will win.  Porn has many women in them, maybe in the thousands.  I read an article where a man with his partner had sex frequently but he would be too tired sometimes.  However if he has a new naked woman he wouldn't be too tired.  With porn there are so many new women so he will get addicted to it.  OxyContin is produced when one has sex this also plays a major role.[/size]

 

She was asking which truth would be more threatening to the womans ego and value in a relationship: that the man had masturbated to thoughts of real women in his life or pornographic images of women he will never know. Also your universal claim about porn always winning when a man doesn't have access to multiple women is clearly not true.

[CrazyCanuck]

She was asking which truth would be more threatening to the womans ego and value in a relationship: that the man had masturbated to thoughts of real women in his life or pornographic images of women he will never know. Also your universal claim about porn always winning when a man doesn't have access to multiple women is clearly not true.

 

 

 

It is true for partner of porn addicts, that's what I was referencing to, my apologies.   It is true for some people.

 

 

 

 

What happens when you drop a male rat into a cage with a receptive female rat? First, you see a frenzy of copulation. Then, progressively, the male tires of that particular female. Even if she wants more, he has had enough. However, replace the original female with a fresh one, and the male immediately revives and gallantly struggles to fertilize her.

You can repeat this process with fresh females until he is completely wiped out.

This is called the Coolidge effect—the automatic response to novel mates. It’s what started you down the road to getting hooked on Internet porn.

 

 

 

 

http://yourbrainonporn.com/doing-what-you-evolved-to-do

[Guest Exceptionalist]

I guess that makes two of you then.

 

He likes porn, but doesn't feel comfortable talking about it.

 

How does him watching porn affect you? And why is it any of your business? You're not engaged or married.

 

Do you want to say it's a trust issue? Have you divulged all of the skeletons in your closet to him?

 

If you think he's lying then just confront him. If you don't like his response you can decide to just let it go or move on.

 

There is a difference between openness and honesty. If someone asks you out and you lie to him, that's an trust issue but if you otherwise don't wake sleeping dogs for no reason, that's different.

[CrazyCanuck]

She was asking which truth would be more threatening to the womans ego and value in a relationship: that the man had masturbated to thoughts of real women in his life or pornographic images of women he will never know. Also your universal claim about porn always winning when a man doesn't have access to multiple women is clearly not true.

Where's your proof or references?  I answered photographic materials are more of a threat.  I suggest you do more research on porn addiction.

[Stoic_Dreamer]

My two cents... Remember as you read that I'm throwing possibilities out there- I don't know you, your boyfriend, your relationship, etc. So take anything I put out there as nothing more than just that- a possibility w/out adequate information to even hazard a guess.

 

 

 

It's probable that he isn't being honest about the porn thing with either the watching it or the masturbating to it. No male (or female) watches porn "to see what's trending" even if he's a Pink Cross member.

 

The question then is why he feels that he needs to hide it and lie about it. If he's going out of his way to lie about it then its something he's either ashamed of or he doesn't really believe that you are ok with it. My guess would be a mixture of both... particularly if he's paying for it, and/or spending a ridiculous amount of time watching it. With the noted exception of some religious women most females tell their partners that they are "ok" with the porn thing, but if they actually encounter it on the partner's computer, tv, drawer, etc. are not in fact "ok" with it at all.  Your boyfriend might have experienced something similar in a previous relationship.  That or he was made to feel ashamed of stuff like that when he was a child.

 

 

I'll preface this next part with a big: TALK WITH YOUR BOYFRIEND ABOUT IT BEFORE LEAPING TO THIS CONCLUSION.

 

 

There could be an additional component to why he doesn't want you to see what he's watching.  Some of the "VIP" stuff has an interactive component to it where there is an actual woman on the other side that is responding to instant messages in real-time. Again, I don't know if that is the case with your boyfriend but its something to consider as a possibility.  It's kind of a leap from just watching videos but not nearly as bad news as going to the strip club every night.

 

 

 

As far as approaching the subject goes- I would not lead with the "are you a porn addict" or the "what was your relationship with your mother like" questions unless he's really really really into FDR or you want him to never be honest with you when it comes to porn.  Curiosity goes a long way. Or even asking if he's willing to watch some of it with you. Any approach that isn't going to directly trigger the ole "fight or flight" part of his brain.

[Fel1x]

Things have progressed a bit after my last post.

 

I found that porn was in a way a lid to really deep and strong emotions for me. Yesterday and the day before when I was thinking and feeling the anxiety and fear I had as a teenager and really sinking in to them

 

The emotions were very powerful. I got really deep and strong anger, a knife twisting in my heart, which was very agonizing and even some rage. Hatred and sadness after those emotions. Next I felt really tired and sleepy.

[ThatAtheistPlace]

I agree!!!  What the hell?