Applying RTR goes wrong

[Anna K]

Hey Everyone,

 

Would appreciate your take on this:

 

My sister and I stopped talking after I decided to bring in honestly into our relationship as per RTR. I'm new to RTR concept and application, so I'm not sure if I've done it wrong or how I can reach out to my sister now. 

 

Briefly, this was the scenario about 3 months ago, and the whole chain took place over text messages: I was sick and my sister knew (we live separately), but she didn't check up on me, so I just shared with her that I felt sad and like she didn't care. I told her about wanting to be more honest and have a better relationship. First, she was curious and asked me what I wanted her to say to me, but the next day she completely freaked saying how dare I to say she doesn't care, and went of on a tangent about how "my" parents poisoned me and that I always hated her. I told her maybe I wasn't doing RTR correctly, but my intention was just to be honest and that she seemed angry and maybe we should continue when she's ready to talk, she was fine with that. 

 

So I reached out shortly after. I decided to be an example of RTR-ing and we got into a conversation about her mother (we have different mothers, same dad) and childhood. I tried to empathize and show support, then I asked her for feedback on it and if she saw the value. She said she felt like she was a psychologist's patient, and was confused why I was "doing it", and what was "wrong" in our relationship before that I had to "fix" it with RTR. She wanted me to talk about our previous argument, and I said that I felt anxious and (not saying that's what she was doing, but) I felt attacked and afraid to be open and vulnerable again. She started the accusations. I stated this was irrelevant and she was attacking, and that I felt frustrated. In the end, I asked her how she came to those conclusions/accusations, and she said "too much to type", so I was at the end of my wits and said "this was useless", and we haven't spoken since. 

 

Her boyfriend messaged me several times saying that he sees my sister's sorrow without me in her life, and that he would like us to mend. I don't know if it's true or if she's manipulating him to get me to reach out. 

 

I would like to have my sister back in my life, but what she said can't be unsaid, and even though she's also into personal growth somewhat, I'm questioning if there's any depth that I thought she had, or if she's sensible enough. She's also had a pretty rough childhood, and she hasn't learned the tools that I have. Actually, this reminds me- I mailed her RTR CD among other Stef's books as she has asked me- a rather kind gesture on my part. I cringed to send it, but felt it was for the better. 

 

Anyhow, my question is if anyone can suggest any strategies of reaching out and starting a conversation with my sister again? 

 

Thank you for reading my long background story!

 

Cheers,

 

Anna

 

 

[ribuck]

First, she was curious and asked me what I wanted her to say to me...

 

And how did you respond when your sister asked you this?

[PatrickC]

Anyhow, my question is if anyone can suggest any strategies of reaching out and starting a conversation with my sister again?

 

Sorry to hear of your sisters reaction. It was certainly unjust of her. Not that you have any unchosen obligations to your sister Anna. But if you want to reconnect with her, then you should do so for as long as you want too.

 

In my experience there is much to learn from our relationships. But perhaps rather than RTR with her, that you should RTR with yourself. This would be a way of protecting yourself from her previous attacks. You could just have a normal day out with her and see what transpires. You can make mental notes of feelings as they arise, rather than challenge her immediately. You can try to make sense of them later in a journal or something.

 

Try and understand the pattern of feelings you experience when you're around her. If she opens up to you then you can decide whether it's genuine or a trap. Allow yourself to be in control of what you say. So you can always decline an offer to open up with a person, if you feel it wont be helpful or might lead to further attacks. If they are genuine then they will allow you this space. Hope that inspires as well as helps, all the best

[LovePrevails]

well done for choosing the path of honesty, it is perilous but can bring great rewards

 

one word of advice, saying "you didn't care" is a conclusion and is likely to make people defensive - it undermines honest, stick with your feelings and neutral language at first don't draw conclusions

"I felt disappointed that you did not choose to make the time to check up on me"

you can even say "I felt disappointed and thought that you not coming meant you didn't care"

that is also honest

 

I can't prove that this purer form of honesty would work but at least if it didn't you'd know you were unscrupulous and wouldn't be left wondering if you could have done better

 

if you want to talk about it more send me a private message so we can skype, maybe I can give you some tips

[sensedata]

It sounds to me by the "too much to type" comment that you did this over chat... I think you really need to be in person, especially at first to read and convey body language.  The words always come out colder and harsher over txt. 

[BrianBrian]

When you mentioned that you want your sister in your life, do you possibly mean that you rather want a healthy relationship with a sister in your life? Stef discusses the confusion that can occur in wishing for healthy relationships and connection somewhere in the first couple hundred podcasts. For example, if I wish I had a healthy relationship with my sister I am likely fantasizing to have had what I never had growing up. I think he explains this to be a dangerous fantasy. I'm sorry I can't provide more detail but I think that understanding the initial motive and how much of it is wishing for what never was will help you manage where you Target your thoughts and efforts.

[LovePrevails]

It sounds to me by the "too much to type" comment that you did this over chat... I think you really need to be in person, especially at first to read and convey body language.  The words always come out colder and harsher over txt. 

 

 

i think there is some real truth in this

[Anna K]

Thank you so much everyone! You've given me a lot to think about. 

And how did you respond when your sister asked you this?

I said I didn't know and that I was just expressing honestly what I was feeling

But surely we'd have to discuss what happened at some point. I feel like talking about anything else would be pretensive- it's an elephant in the room..but I'm not sure what to say to not bring out her defensiveness. Perhaps, I could say that I felt I made mistakes by not communicating properly and stating conclusions, which could have come as accusations and therefore I understand she felt defensive. But as soon as I think this, I feel resistance because I would be opening up and feeling vulnerable while she has a tendency to go on a blaming trip and hence feeling superior since I was "wrong" per se. 

 

Sorry to hear of your sisters reaction. It was certainly unjust of her. Not that you have any unchosen obligations to your sister Anna. But if you want to reconnect with her, then you should do so for as long as you want too.

 

In my experience there is much to learn from our relationships. But perhaps rather than RTR with her, that you should RTR with yourself. This would be a way of protecting yourself from her previous attacks. You could just have a normal day out with her and see what transpires. You can make mental notes of feelings as they arise, rather than challenge her immediately. You can try to make sense of them later in a journal or something.

 

Try and understand the pattern of feelings you experience when you're around her. If she opens up to you then you can decide whether it's genuine or a trap. Allow yourself to be in control of what you say. So you can always decline an offer to open up with a person, if you feel it wont be helpful or might lead to further attacks. If they are genuine then they will allow you this space. Hope that inspires as well as helps, all the best

[PatrickC]

But surely we'd have to discuss what happened at some point. I feel like talking about anything else would be pretensive- it's an elephant in the room..but I'm not sure what to say to not bring out her defensiveness. Perhaps, I could say that I felt I made mistakes by not communicating properly and stating conclusions, which could have come as accusations and therefore I understand she felt defensive. But as soon as I think this, I feel resistance because I would be opening up and feeling vulnerable while she has a tendency to go on a blaming trip and hence feeling superior since I was "wrong" per se. 

 

Sorry Anna, wasn't sure if this was meant for me entirely, but seemed so.. I don't entirely understand what you mean exactly, although I have some thoughts. Just wanted to get further clarification on what you meant.

[Anna K]

Xelent, I'm still figuring out the navigation here, but yes I was responding to you in the second part of the reply. Great advice regarding RTRing with myself. But I was just not sure how to go about having a "normal day" out with my sister. I would inevitable feel the need of discussing what happened as opposed to pretending it never did. But if I do, I would have to be honest, which would lead into RTRing with her...? Or would it be a good idea to just talk about trivial things and wait for her to bring it up? And when she does, then what do I say?

[PatrickC]

Right... Well, I'm not suggesting you ignore your previous experience of your sister. Just saying that if you didn't feel like talking that through just now with her, that the personal RTR with yourself might provide you with some better insight into how you may approach any future conversations with her. My reference to a "normal day out", would just be that, juxtaposed by you making mental notes about how you experienced her.

 

You have no obligation to discuss the previous interaction at all of course. You can approach further interactions as a means to better understand your own experience with her. To suggest that you 'must' explain your previous experience with her, is an unnecessary burden you are putting on yourself (which entails the risk of attack perhaps), that seemingly (to me at least) you don't entirely understand just yet.  I hope that makes sense for you.

[Anna K]

it does, I appreciate it

[Mishelle]

Anna, I so appreciate reading about your journey in RTR, thanks for sharing.  The photo you've posted is just gorgeous!

 

 I agree with above comments about texting being not a good way to have this important convo.  And also that there was judgment in the "not caring" comment, certainly understandable but likely to get an emotionally charged reaction.  

 

I learned something in a course that might be helpful.  If you picture 3 concentric circles and visualize your relationships fitting into those based on these criteria:  The outer circle is all your acquaintances with whom you can't have discussions about real things, but for other reasons they remain in your life (colleagues, distant family, whatever); the 2nd circle are those who are closer, who have a general interest in the same things as you and you can from time to time "go there" in an authentic way, but context and delivery is going to be crucial; and then the Inner circle--those who you know share your passions in somewhat equal measure and are completely reciprocal--you are learning and teaching each other constantly, They are "evolved" relationships.

 

It sounds to me your sister is in circle 2, which will require of you much more patience and to actually be her teacher, if and when she explicitly invites this.

 

In the meantime I personally would write her a letter, and have someone good at these things, (like LP perhaps?!)  read over it before sending.

 

Bon courage!

[LovePrevails]

woudl you like to chata about it? you can add me on skype my userid is amashaman

[Anna K]

Anna, I so appreciate reading about your journey in RTR, thanks for sharing.  The photo you've posted is just gorgeous!

 

 I agree with above comments about texting being not a good way to have this important convo.  And also that there was judgment in the "not caring" comment, certainly understandable but likely to get an emotionally charged reaction.  

 

I learned something in a course that might be helpful.  If you picture 3 concentric circles and visualize your relationships fitting into those based on these criteria:  The outer circle is all your acquaintances with whom you can't have discussions about real things, but for other reasons they remain in your life (colleagues, distant family, whatever); the 2nd circle are those who are closer, who have a general interest in the same things as you and you can from time to time "go there" in an authentic way, but context and delivery is going to be crucial; and then the Inner circle--those who you know share your passions in somewhat equal measure and are completely reciprocal--you are learning and teaching each other constantly, They are "evolved" relationships.

 

It sounds to me your sister is in circle 2, which will require of you much more patience and to actually be her teacher, if and when she explicitly invites this.

 

In the meantime I personally would write her a letter, and have someone good at these things, (like LP perhaps?!)  read over it before sending.

 

Bon courage!

Mishelle, great help! The concentric circles is something my therapist mentioned briefly- it helps. Overall, I definitely see where I've gone wrong.  LP, I'd be happy to chat sometimes

[cynicist]

Briefly, this was the scenario about 3 months ago, and the whole chain took place over text messages: I was sick and my sister knew (we live separately), but she didn't check up on me, so I just shared with her that I felt sad and like she didn't care. I told her about wanting to be more honest and have a better relationship. First, she was curious and asked me what I wanted her to say to me, but the next day she completely freaked saying how dare I to say she doesn't care, and went of on a tangent about how "my" parents poisoned me and that I always hated her. I told her maybe I wasn't doing RTR correctly, but my intention was just to be honest and that she seemed angry and maybe we should continue when she's ready to talk, she was fine with that.

 

Yeah I already see the problem here. Since RTR is so unusual for people it is better to have the conversation in person because it can lead to misunderstandings quickly. So for example when you said that you, "felt sad and like she didn't care", what you were saying is that you felt like she didn't care, but what she heard was that you were calling her inconsiderate. This is avoidable in person because you can clarify, "I'm not saying this is true or anything, I'm just saying this is how I feel". This is harder to do in text, that's why it's called Real Time Relationships And why tell her you are doing RTR? It basically just means being honest about your feelings while in a conversation, so I would say that instead because it is easy to misunderstand and think someone is trying to manipulate you using some technique they learned on the internet instead. Like those pickup artist guys.

 

 

So I reached out shortly after. I decided to be an example of RTR-ing and we got into a conversation about her mother (we have different mothers, same dad) and childhood. I tried to empathize and show support, then I asked her for feedback on it and if she saw the value. She said she felt like she was a psychologist's patient, and was confused why I was "doing it", and what was "wrong" in our relationship before that I had to "fix" it with RTR. She wanted me to talk about our previous argument, and I said that I felt anxious and (not saying that's what she was doing, but) I felt attacked and afraid to be open and vulnerable again. She started the accusations. I stated this was irrelevant and she was attacking, and that I felt frustrated. In the end, I asked her how she came to those conclusions/accusations, and she said "too much to type", so I was at the end of my wits and said "this was useless", and we haven't spoken since.

 

 

Oh man is this over text again? At least use skype or something. I had a similar issue with my brother around using terms like "feedback" and "value", my solution was just to translate that into something that sounds more natural. Something more like, "Was that advice helpful or did I totally lose you there?" or "What did you think of what I just said?". Using language that is different from your normal chats will make you sound different, especially in text. (more clinical or corporate in this case) The way I understand it is that being honest is enough of a change already, using different language too just makes it all too alien for people to handle.

 

I'm not sure what accusations she made (hope it was nothing too serious) but if you are certain you want to try again I would setup a video chat if you can't do it in person. This is up to you but I would start off by apologizing for trying this new way of communicating over text rather than doing it face to face because it led to a number of misunderstandings between you two. And then going on to explain how you just want to be more open to talk about your feelings with each other because you haven't felt able to do so in the past and see how she responds. Then you two can hopefully have some meaningful conversation.

 

 

 

But as soon as I think this, I feel resistance because I would be opening up and feeling vulnerable while she has a tendency to go on a blaming trip and hence feeling superior since I was "wrong" per se.

 

But being vulnerable is what RTR is all about! Be honest with her and if she decides to put you down in order to feel superior, then let her know how that makes you feel. If she continues to attack you and you continue to be honest about your feelings, at some point you will want to end the conversation. If she has any empathy at all she will not feel good about her behavior when you didn't return her abuse and will want to apologize to you. If not, then at least you know the truth about whether your sister is capable of talking about anything real or not. What you do with that information will be entirely up to you, but at least you will know.

 

 

I would like to have my sister back in my life, but what she said can't be unsaid, and even though she's also into personal growth somewhat, I'm questioning if there's any depth that I thought she had, or if she's sensible enough. She's also had a pretty rough childhood, and she hasn't learned the tools that I have. Actually, this reminds me- I mailed her RTR CD among other Stef's books as she has asked me- a rather kind gesture on my part. I cringed to send it, but felt it was for the better.

 

 

I wouldn't write her off immediately, (well, depending on what she said exactly lol) remember that it wasn't easy for you and she doesn't have your level of knowledge or skill at this point, so you can't expect her to be able to communicate like you right away. That said she also may not be capable either, I would just remain open to both possibilities. My own brother made some mistakes but I was at least somewhat hopeful that he could change until he started mocking my interest in philosophy. I would definitely ask your sister what she thinks of what she has read so far the next time you two chat, if she has any interest at all in Stef's books then there is definitely hope