Obesity

[Henry1958]

This is a reply to Stephans' latest video "The Obamacare Extension - Government Without Painkillers". It is not replying to the video in general, but Stephans' comments on Obesity. My first note is that correlation does not imply causation. I'll start you off watching this Ted talk by Dr. Peter Attia. For your information Dr. Attia is on a ketogenic diet, (High fat, adequate protein, low carbohydrate).

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_attia_what_if_we_re_wrong_about_diabetes.html

 

If you are to lazy to spend 15 minutes watching the video and still comment negatively on this post you can go fuck yourself.

 

So in general my research seems to point to the fact that our obesity epidemic and all of it's corresponding diseases seem to be related to diet. The question is whether obesity is a symptom rather than a cause of the epidemic of diseases.

 

It seems to me that most of the problems stem from the change to our diet in the 70's when the government started to promote a diet of low fat, high carbohydrate and trying to avoid all saturated fats. I recall in my childhood when this first came out that my mother automatically got rid of the butter and switched over to margarine, reduced the eggs and bacon, and cut way back on saturated fat. Today in her 80's she is still eating margarine, is on Anti-Statin drugs and in turn has dementia, (yes correlation does not imply causation).

 

If you wish to watch some videos on the topic here is a series on fat. This is just a start and may be biased since they do sell books but an interesting series of video.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEWc5fL04o0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-meOl6vyLHA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqPmJHEEw4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIEDYbGJsmQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3E0pFl370Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH5wquzbtAY

 

I have a lot more to discuss about this topic but will cut it short to not overload anyone. Some of the proposed discussions are:

• High fat/Low carbohydrate vs. Low fat/High carbohydrate diets
• Canadian and American food guilds, (I believe the cause of the obesity/disease crisis.
• Hydrogenated oils
• Palio vs. Vegan/vegetarian diets.
• Bacon
• Will spam be discovered as the ultimate health food.
• My diet choices and weight loss/health over the last 6 months.
• Bio-hacking
• etc.

It should be noted that the Palio group tend to be very libertarian so feel that this is a great discussion topic for this forum.

 

I hope that you will spend some time doing some research on this top and most of all watch Dr. Attia's video. After watching it it changed my attitude when seeing an obese person from total disgust to one of sympathy and empathy.

 

Thanks,

 

Henry
 

[Nathan H. Hoffner]

This post was urgently needed.  Good job!   I second everything said.  It's annoying when Stef talks about obesity and never follows up his comments with the truth on the cure for obesity, which is a ketogenic (high fat, low carb) diet.    How can we expect people to not be obese when whenever they do try to lose weight they do it completely wrong because of all the lies they've been indoctrinated with (that cardio is healthy and necessary to lose weight, to avoid fat, etc.).  It's all BS!   And the issue is not only obesity, but health issues in general.  Almost all modern day "diseases" are simply caused by our diet, though you'll never hear that from your doctor.    Healthcare is an issue?   This is a major cause of it.  This is how they feed the system with sick people.

 

For a community that is all about personal freedom, how can the message be complete without addressing the fact that most people are slaves to their blood sugar!   Free yourself from the nightmare that is "controlling" blood sugar!  Learn the truth about our energy needs (metabolism) and how energy is best supplied to and utilized by the body.  You're not free until your a fat burner, which is exactly the way evolution designed us.  It's a paradigm shift.  Be curious!

 

I'll add that a good resource for this stuff is Mark Sisson (Marksdailyapple.com and his books Primal Blueprint and Primal Connection) and Nora Gedgaudas (Primal Body - Primal Mind: Beyond the Paleo Diet for Total Health and a Longer Life).  There are many others, but this a good place to start (especially marksdailyapple.com).

 

See how the truth in health and nutrition changes (saves!) lives. 

 

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/i-am-strong-energized-off-all-medications-and-feel-wonderful/#more-45973

 

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/category/success-story-summaries/#axzz2kqTEm6st

[Bulbasaur]

Well said. It is not simply a matter of poor lifestyle choices. Like most other crises, the modern American diet and the constellation of chronic diseases surrounding metabolic syndrome are the result of counterproductive government propaganda about proper nutrition which has now become cemented into conventional wisdom. It's also another great example of how easily people are confused by language (i.e. I need to eat a 'low fat' diet to avoid becoming fat). In addition to the links above, I'd recommend the lectures and books of Gary Taubes for a review of the history of bad science behind conventional nutrition, and the documentary Fat Head for a humorous take on the government's role in promoting it.

[Henry1958]

I think that I should apologize for my "go fuck yourself" statement but I was expecting replies like: "Don't give me this bullshit that everybody has some thyroid problem. No! People eat too much and don't exercise." and "...they're generally such an unhealthy group of people that they desperately need all the medications that keep their fat asses walking around. "Yes, I pulled them out of Stephan's video. Here's a link to the video I'm commenting on (go to around the 4:00 minute mark):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX43DaFlgeII can't say that I'm not guilty of this sentiment myself. If you talked to me 3 weeks ago, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with Stephan's statement. Similarly, if you asked me what I thought of Anarchist 3-4 years ago, I would have said: "You mean those assholes that burn and break things at demonstrations. They're assholes.". This, not knowing that I was actually an anarchist myself but was blinded to its true meaning by the government and media. I discovered this through Stephan's podcast.I do think there are a lot of avenues for discussion on diet/health issues especially since I believe you can place a majority of the blame on the government itself via the "Canada food guide" and the "US food guide pyramid". Government got involved in nutrition and we are now suffering the consequences. 

[CrazyCanuck]

There are numerous reason people are fat.  From ingesting chemicals from plastics to consuming HFCS and other sugars.  it is not simple, cut and dry as you think it is.

[JasonL]

_{I've read similar things in the past. I think there is a lot of truth to the argument, The Gary Taubes notion that increased carbs also increases the desire for carbs seems true for me anyway.}

[Henry1958]

CrazyCunuck,

From what I recall HFCS and other sugars are considered carbohydrates. As for toxins from plastics I agree that these should be investigated, not just for possibility of them causing obesity, but their other deleterious effects, (being an estrogen mimic for example). I try to stay away from them as much as possible.

As for my posts or Dr. Attia's presentation, I find your statement "it is not simple, cut and dry as you think it is.", baffling. I can't find anywhere that that has been stated. I've added a somewhat large transcript of the presentation to demonstrate this.

"I have my own ideas about what could be at the heart of this, but I'm wide open to others. Now, my hypothesis, because everybody always asks me, is this. If you ask yourself, what's a cell trying to protect itself from when it becomes insulin resistant, the answer probably isn't too much food. It's more likely to much glucose: blood sugar. Now, we know that refined grains and starches elevate your blood sugar in the short run, and there's even reason to believe that sugar may lead to insulin resistance directly. So if you put these physiological processes to work, I'd hypothesize that it might be our increased intake if refined grains, sugars and starches that's driving this epidemic of obesity and diabetes, but through insulin resistance, you see, and not necessarily through just overeating and under- exercising.

When I lost my 40 pounds a few years ago I did it simply by restricting those things, which admittedly suggests I have a bias based on my personal experience. But that doesn't mean my bias is wrong, and most important, all of this can be tested scientifically. But step one is accepting the possibility that our current beliefs about obesity, diabetes and insulin resistance could be wrong and therefore must be tested. I'm betting my career on this.

Today, I devote all of my time to working on this problem and I'll go wherever the science takes me. I've decided that what I can't and won't do anymore is pretend I have the answers when I don't. I've been humbled enough by all I don't know. For the past year, I've been fortunate enough to work on this problem with the most amazing team of diabetes and obesity researchers in the country, and the best part is, just like Abraham Lincoln surrounded himself with a team of rivals, we've done the same thing. We've recruited a team of scientific rivals, the best and brightest who all have different hypotheses for what's at the heart of this epidemic. Some think it's too many calories consumed. Others think it's too much dietary fat. Other think it's too many refined grains and starches. But this team of multidisciplinary, highly skeptical and exceedingly talented researchers do agree on two things. First this problem is too important to continue ignoring because we think we know the answer. And two, if we're willing to be wrong, if we're willing to challenge the conventional wisdom with the best experiments science can offer, we can solve this problem."

Perhaps you neglected to actually watch the video prior to posting your response.... If you catch my drift.

[Bulbasaur]

Broad dismissive statements like 'it's not as simple as you think it is' I find fairly counterproductive, unless you follow up with something more substantive. That said, I do think there's a strong case that fructose ought to be singled out from other carbohydrates. I would recommend looking for a lecture by Robert Lustig called "Sugar: The Bitter Truth" for more on this. Stefan actually has an interview with him as well. The main point is that fructose is metabolized like an ethanol analogue and causes similar systemic problems when consumed in excess.

 

Lustig seems to think that fructose alone is responsible for metabolic syndrome, while others like Taubes blame excess carbohydrate more generally, and still others like William Davis single out wheat specifically and other carbs to a lesser extent. The replacement of saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats ("vegetable" oils) is also often blamed as a potential contributor.

 

Considering all of their cases, I think it's likely that sugar and wheat proteins are the main drivers of metabolic syndrome and inflammatory problems (with tolerance for wheat varying much more widely from person to person), but other carbs become problematic once insulin resistance has developed.

[Henry1958]

Bulbasaur,It seems we've been studying the same authors. I'm still trying to sort of the plethora of information I've tried to absorb the last few weeks. I'm still a newbie on the topic. I recall hearing about a high fat diet a couple of years ago just laughed it off. Now, I'm not so sure, although at this time I would not want to try a ketogenic diet.Regarding carbohydrates, by the time you reach insulin resistance you have probably done some major damage, (perhaps unnoticed), to your body. Wouldn't it be wise to reduce the intake of carbohydrates to mitigate their cumulative affects? I'm not suggesting zero since there is a point of diminishing returns, (you probably don't want to worry about hitting insulin resistance at age 100).Of course, each of us different which is why I'm of the opinion to try things out for yourself and see what works. I guess I could be considered a bio-hacker. So far I've played around with juice fasting (actually did it for a whole month), vegan (yuk! I was always hungry), and now checking out a modified paleo with higher fats. Throughout, I have juiced regularly, eaten tons of vegetable, eliminated wheat, reduced most other grains and legumes. I have also resistance trained for about 30 minutes a day 3 times per week.I do feel pretty damn good now, (probably better than I've felt in the last 20 years). I've lost about 32 pounds, (200 down to 168), belly reduced from 42 - 34.5 inches. 

[Wuzzums]

Fat is surplus energy stored. How can there be fat if no surplus energy is added? We are not plants, eating is an active process. How can you eat no more than your daily caloric requirement and get fat? (medical conditions notwithstanding, the diagnosis for obesity is based on adipose tissue alone)

 

I'm speaking from experience. I have been obese most of my life but then I applied the 1st law of thermodynamics to my life and I'm fat no more... sssssssSCIENCE.

[Bulbasaur]

 

 

Regarding carbohydrates, by the time you reach insulin resistance you have probably done some major damage, (perhaps unnoticed), to your body. Wouldn't it be wise to reduce the intake of carbohydrates to mitigate their cumulative affects? I'm not suggesting zero since there is a point of diminishing returns, (you probably don't want to worry about hitting insulin resistance at age 100).

Yes, insulin resistance basically means that your ability to process glucose (carbs) is impaired. High blood glucose is a damaging state which your body attempts to mitigate as quickly as possible, but insulin resistance interferes with this so your body produces more and more insulin to try to compensate. So you can end up with damage from high blood sugar and exhaustion of your pancreas' ability to produce insulin (type 2 diabetes). Once you're insulin resistant, any carbs will exacerbate this. This is why it's so insane that the ADA continues to recommend whole grains to diabetics. 

 

When I started paleo I basically cut out carbs almost completely, but I stuck with dairy and just switched to raw milk. I gradually started incorporating potatoes/yams and occasional other carbs like gluten free pasta. I don't really see much difference with or without the carbs, but then I never had a weight problem or insulin resistance to begin with. I just found the arguments against wheat and sugar convincing and the case against saturated fat to be unsupported.

 

 

Fat is surplus energy stored. How can there be fat if no surplus energy is added? We are not plants, eating is an active process. How can you eat no more than your daily caloric requirement and get fat? (medical conditions notwithstanding, the diagnosis for obesity is based on adipose tissue alone)

 

I'm speaking from experience. I have been obese most of my life but then I applied the 1st law of thermodynamics to my life and I'm fat no more... sssssssSCIENCE.

 

Gary Taubes has made this objection the focus of his case, his book is called "Good Calories, Bad Calories" for this reason. He addresses it in his online lectures as well. The error in this 'calories in, calories out' accounting is the assumed causality. In other words "it's not that we get fat because we eat too much; we eat too much because we're getting fat." Thermodynamics need not be violated to undermine the premise. The easy example is to look at a growing child. The child must consume a net positive calorie balance in order to grow, but it's clear that the driving force is the hormonal and metabolic processes which regulate human growth and appetite. It would be silly to say that children grow because they eat too much; clearly there are other important biological processes that are the determining factors, and the matter of calorie balance is incidental. There's good evidence that obesity is similarly related to metabolic disruption and hormone regulation issues, and that calorie imbalance is just a consequence of that.

[CrazyCanuck]

Broad dismissive statements like 'it's not as simple as you think it is' I find fairly counterproductive, unless you follow up with something more substantive. 

Really?  There are fruitarian who eat a high carb low fat diet that aren't fat.  Go to youtube and watch durian rider he eats that low fat high carb diet.  Apparently this will make people fat. 

[NeoEclectic]

How do you explain people in other country's that have access and consume the same foods types? Comparatively, the USA is more obese on average.

[Nathan H. Hoffner]

How do you explain people in other country's that have access and consume the same foods types? Comparatively, the USA is more obese on average.

You should look into the work of Weston A. Price to see a comparison of societies consuming their traditional diets and those on a "western" diet.  We evolved over a few million years eating fat as our main source of fuel, especially in cold climates and in winter months (zero carbs!).   This is our natural state and how we thrive.   We only introduced mass agriculture and high carb diets (low nutrient density foods - any many with anti-nutrients) about 10,000 years ago.   And the results have be disastrous.  This is why government and pharma companies recommend a high carb diet.

We also need address the dangers of wheat.   Here's a Lew Rockwell podcast with "Wheat Belly" author William Davis, MD.

 

 

William Davis, MD, talks to Lew Rockwell about the government crop that’s making Americans fat and sick.

 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/372-wheat-belly/

Really?  There are fruitarian who eat a high carb low fat diet that aren't fat.  Go to youtube and watch durian rider he eats that low fat high carb diet.  Apparently this will make people fat. 

 

But what are they like on the inside?  High carbs causes diabetes, just fyi.   All carbohydrates get metabolized as blood glucose, which causes damage internally which is why the body rushes to remove it from the blood stream asap with insulin.... or burn is off asap.    This process, over and over, causes much damange and speeds up the aging process and promotes disease.

 

Introduction to the Work of Weston A Price - Sally Fallon Morell, M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b79YOawBg-U

 

Taming the Carb Craving Monster 1/13

[FreedomPhilosophy]

Really?  There are fruitarian who eat a high carb low fat diet that aren't fat.  Go to youtube and watch durian rider he eats that low fat high carb diet.  Apparently this will make people fat. 

I did about 6 years mostly eating fruit and the odd salad, I remained very slim and in excellent health on the whole. Long term consumption of commercially grown fruits can leave you deficient in bulk minerals and B12, but this can easily be remedied with more variety, use of root vegetables or supplements. The traditional diet of most Asians is carb based with no obesity epidemic and generally superior health and fitness to Westerners who consume a lot of animal products and processed foods. 

 

There is a genetic predisposition to obesity, and a few other factors, but essentially it occurs because people eat too much and exercise too little.

Paleo diet has been extensively debunked in an epic series of scientific videos on youtube by Plant Positive called "primitive nutrition" and in the video below. Paleo adherents are usually incredibly resistant to and ignorant of science though, it is like a religious cult.Fat and specifically saturated fat is destructive to human health. The science behind this is almost rock solid at this point. 

Debunking the paleo diet: Christina Warinner at TEDxOU

 

You should look into the work of Weston A. Price to see a comparison of societies consuming their traditional diets and those on a "western" diet.  We evolved over a few million years eating fat as our main source of fuel, especially in cold climates and in winter months (zero carbs!).   This is our natural state and how we thrive.   We only introduced mass agriculture and high carb diets (low nutrient density foods - any many with anti-nutrients) about 10,000 years ago.   And the results have be disastrous.  This is why government and pharma companies recommend a high carb diet.

This are some huge claims at odds with nutritional science, so let's see some sources please.

[Nathan H. Hoffner]

I did about 6 years mostly eating fruit and the odd salad, I remained very slim and in excellent health on the whole. Long term consumption of commercially grown fruits can leave you deficient in bulk minerals and B12, but this can easily be remedied with more variety, use of root vegetables or supplements. The traditional diet of most Asians is carb based with no obesity epidemic and generally superior health and fitness to Westerners who consume a lot of animal products and processed foods. 

 

There is a genetic predisposition to obesity, and a few other factors, but essentially it occurs because people eat too much and exercise too little.

Paleo diet has been extensively debunked in an epic series of scientific videos on youtube by Plant Positive called "primitive nutrition" and in the video below. Paleo adherents are usually incredibly resistant to and ignorant of science though, it is like a religious cult.Fat and specifically saturated fat is destructive to human health. The science behind this is almost rock solid at this point. 

Debunking the paleo diet: Christina Warinner at TEDxOU

 

This is all lies.  Why is human breast milk extremely high in saturated fats, cholesterol and Uric Acid if it is so bad for us? We evolved millions of years on fats.  Something is missing in your understanding of how of our bodies process fats and how essential they are to our development and the maintenance of our bodies.   Fats and proteins are the building blocks of life... carbs are just empty calories that are unnecessary and are actually destructive if consumed in excess, which isn't all that much.  Our body converts from protein what little carbohydrate needs there are (about 2% of our internal processes only).

Where is the science that fats and /or cholesterol causes heart disease?    It doesn't exist.  Watch this...

 

The Limits of Scientific Evidence and the Ethics of Dietary Guidelines - Peter Attia,  MD.

 

"Most of the dietary recommendations made in the United States are not firmly grounded in well-controlled science. The implications for this are profound, especially at a time where two-thirds of Americans are overweight and obesity and its related diseases – diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and Alzheimer’s disease to name a few – are claiming the lives of more people each year. In this presentation, Peter Attia takes a close look at one such pillar of dietary wisdom, the recommendation that Americans minimize their consumption of dietary cholesterol and fat in an effort to reduce heart disease."

[FreedomPhilosophy]

This is all lies.  Why is human breast milk extremely high in saturated fats, cholesterol and Uric Acid if it is so bad for us? We evolved millions of years on fats.  Something is missing in your understanding of how of our bodies process fats and how essential they are to our development and the maintenance of our bodies.   Fats and proteins are the building blocks of life... carbs are just empty calories that are unnecessary and are actually destructive if consumed in excess, which isn't all that much.  Our body converts from protein what little carbohydrate needs there are (about 2% of our internal processes only).

 

Where is the science that fats and /or cholesterol causes heart disease?    It doesn't exist.  Watch this...

An adult does not have the same nutritional requirements as a growing baby. Breast milk isn't very fatty, contains little protein and it's mostly water and the fatty acid composition tends to reflect the mothers diet, see below.

 

Mature human milk contains 3%--5% fat, 0.8%--0.9% protein, 6.9%--7.2% carbohydrate

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/392766

And the science is in the scientific literature, you seem to have no idea how ridiculous your claims are. Peter Attia is a blogger and has no idea what he is talking about, what is his published research? Where has he done the painstaking work of refuting actual research findings? Do you really believe that him saying something makes it a fact? 

[Henry1958]

Paleo adherents are usually incredibly resistant to and ignorant of science though, it is like a religious cult.

 

 

 

Enough of the "appeal to ridicule" logical falacy.

 

Naturally a debunking itself needs a debunking.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACVzZ9nuap8

http://www.paleostyle.com/?p=2143

 

I haven't found a debunking of the debunking of the debunking yet.

 

Please note that in the section of the video where he states that the recommendations are coming from Christina Warriner, she leads in with this statement: "Can we take lessons from these paleolithic diets that we still can apply to our lives today and the answer is yes."

 

On a side note. How do you link a youtube video into the forum? I've only found link and Image.

 

H.

And the science is in the scientific literature, you seem to have no idea how ridiculous your claims are. 1 - Peter Attia is a blogger and has no idea what he is talking about, 2 - what is his published research? Where has he done the painstaking work of refuting actual research findings? 3 - Do you really believe that him saying something makes it a fact? 

 

I guess 1 - Ad Hominem, 2 - Appeal to Authority and 3 - Appeal to Ridicule are also up your alley.

[CrazyCanuck]

I did about 6 years mostly eating fruit and the odd salad, I remained very slim and in excellent health on the whole. Long term consumption of commercially grown fruits can leave you deficient in bulk minerals and B12, but this can easily be remedied with more variety, use of root vegetables or supplements. The traditional diet of most Asians is carb based with no obesity epidemic and generally superior health and fitness to Westerners who consume a lot of animal products and processed foods. 

 

There is a genetic predisposition to obesity, and a few other factors, but essentially it occurs because people eat too much and exercise too little.

Paleo diet has been extensively debunked in an epic series of scientific videos on youtube by Plant Positive called "primitive nutrition" and in the video below. Paleo adherents are usually incredibly resistant to and ignorant of science though, it is like a religious cult.Fat and specifically saturated fat is destructive to human health. The science behind this is almost rock solid at this point. 

Debunking the paleo diet: Christina Warinner at TEDxOU

 

This are some huge claims at odds with nutritional science, so let's see some sources please.

 

 

We are talking about obesity, yes a diet high in fruit can cause mineral defences.  I thought we are talking about weight loss.  It's not always cut and dry with diets that's too many factors at play. 

[Nathan H. Hoffner]

We are talking about obesity, yes a diet high in fruit can cause mineral defences.  I thought we are talking about weight loss.  It's not always cut and dry with diets that's too many factors at play. 

 

The Textbook of Medical Physiology, states: “All body fat is made from glucose”. (–Not dietary fat, mind you, but G-L-U-C-O-S-E:  i.e., sugar/carbs).   That's pretty "cut and dry".  Facts are facts and it's clear how the body processes carbs / sugar (as blood glucose) versus dietary fat.    The hormone leptin (the master hormone that regulates hunger and metabolism and all other hormones) responds to fat in the diet.    A carb based diet disrupts the function of leptin.  This is why people on carbs over eat generally and can't get enough... and need to snack or eat every 2 to 3 hours.  This is not normal.  We wouldn't have survived as a species if we had to eat this often. Fat burns steady and slow and we can go a long time without eating.  I sometimes fast for 18 hours or more for the health benefits.  Also, hormones are built using fat and cholesterol.   The brain is largely comprised saturated fat, high in omega 3's and is the largest store of cholesterol in the body.

 

ARE YOU A FAT BURNER OR A SUGAR BURNER?

http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/tag/fat/

I did about 6 years mostly eating fruit and the odd salad, I remained very slim and in excellent health on the whole. Long term consumption of commercially grown fruits can leave you deficient in bulk minerals and B12, but this can easily be remedied with more variety, use of root vegetables or supplements. The traditional diet of most Asians is carb based with no obesity epidemic and generally superior health and fitness to Westerners who consume a lot of animal products and processed foods. 

 

There is a genetic predisposition to obesity, and a few other factors, but essentially it occurs because people eat too much and exercise too little.

Paleo diet has been extensively debunked in an epic series of scientific videos on youtube by Plant Positive called "primitive nutrition" and in the video below. Paleo adherents are usually incredibly resistant to and ignorant of science though, it is like a religious cult.Fat and specifically saturated fat is destructive to human health. The science behind this is almost rock solid at this point. 

Debunking the paleo diet: Christina Warinner at TEDxOU

 

This are some huge claims at odds with nutritional science, so let's see some sources please.

The paleo diet has not been debunked.  See this information.   http://robbwolf.com/2013/04/04/debunking-paleo-diet-wolfs-eye-view/

[Henry1958]

We are talking about obesity, yes a diet high in fruit can cause mineral defences.  I thought we are talking about weight loss.  It's not always cut and dry with diets that's too many factors at play. 

 

Actually the thread has kind of skewed from my original intention?

 

I wanted to talk about a couple of ethical things:

• Was Stephan's comments in the video offensive and insensitive? As I've mentioned earlier, 3 weeks ago I would not have been offended. Now, after watching Dr. Attia's video, I was offended.
• Did Stephan us the logical fallacy "correlation does not imply causation"?

So the correlation/causation leads into the question:

• Does obesity cause all of the other diseases that seem to coencide with it, (Diabetes, Heart Disease, Cancer etc.) or is it just a symptom of some other underlying disease/environmental factor that causes them all?
• What is the underlying mechanism causing fat retention/loss?
• The majority of people who loose weight on a diet gain it all back within a year or two. Why is that?
• How much willpower does an average person have? Is it a limited resource? If not, then in make sense that most people would break their diet due to lack of willpower.
• Are there mechanism to stop the cravings and the addictive nature of some foods?
• All of these diseases seem to increase rapidly after the introduction of the food guilds. Are these guilds a factor in the epidemic?

I had a feeling that when I posted a video by Dr. Attia, (Popular in the Paleo world), that things may degenerated into a Vegan/Paleo debate. This debate should be moved to another thread.

[Nathan H. Hoffner]

So the correlation/causation leads into the question:

• Does obesity cause all of the other diseases that seem to coencide with it, (Diabetes, Heart Disease, Cancer etc.) or is it just a symptom of some other underlying disease/environmental factor that causes them all?
• What is the underlying mechanism causing fat retention/loss?
• The majority of people who loose weight on a diet gain it all back within a year or two. Why is that?
• How much willpower does an average person have? Is it a limited resource? If not, then in make sense that most people would break their diet due to lack of willpower.
• Are there mechanism to stop the cravings and the addictive nature of some foods?
• All of these diseases seem to increase rapidly after the introduction of the food guilds. Are these guilds a factor in the epidemic?

I had a feeling that when I posted a video by Dr. Attia, (Popular in the Paleo world), that things may degenerated into a Vegan/Paleo debate. This debate should be moved to another thread.

Okay, back on topic. I'll take a crack at these.

 

1. Getting fat (internally as well as externally) is our body's attempt to not get diabetes.  If we ignore this communication and continue down that road and push it too far, we eventually get it.  The key to understanding how to reverse diabetes (at least type 2) can be found in studying how and why many mammals hibernate.  There's wisdom in nature.  Circadian cycles are important to understand and follow.  All other modern day "diseases' are related to diet and environmental factors, but can have different specific causes than those of obesity / diabetes, though these don't help, that's for sure.  Dr. Jack Kruse has some very interesting blogs on his website (although a little technical for beginners to this).   "Primal Body-Primal Mind" by Nora Gedgaudas is a good place to start.

 

The Definitive Guide to Insulin, Blood Sugar & Type 2 Diabetes (and you’ll understand it)

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/diabetes/#axzz2kwdwNEhl

 

2. We lose body fat by reducing carbohydrate intake and increasing (natural) fat intake thereby forcing our bodies to revert back to the natural state of utilizing fats / ketones as our main source of fuel / energy.  Under this state, the excess fat melts away, and our appetites become properly regulated (once we're leptin sensitive, the master hormone that regulates appetite and all other hormones).  Then we can just eat when we're hungry and be full once we eat via the signalling of the fat intake (no energy dips, no mood swings, etc).  Key fact:  All body fat comes from blood glucose.     So, a quick way to lose fat is in fact to reduce overall calories, but eat lots of fat (and almost no carbs) so that our body doesn't think it's starving.   The consumption of good amounts of healthy dietary fats is key (coconut oil, grass fed better, grass fed meats, fish oils, etc.)  This also slows the aging process and prevents disease. 

 

http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/the-lesson-of-homers-brain/

 

3. Because when we simply reduce caloric intake (of the standard American diet) to deficit levels, our metabolism responds in turn by slowing down because it thinks it's starving.  Ah, evolution.   So, we eventually plateau and then must eat even less, burn more calories, etc. to continue losing fat (and muscle by the way)    This can't be sustained.   Then, once "normal" eating is resumed, we pack on the fat.   And without regaining the muscle to boot.  This is not so good.   Also, the nutrient deficiencies sustaining during the starving phase do untold amounts of damage.

 

4. There can not be enough willpower to go against nature / evolution and come out on top.

 

5.  Become a "fat burner" and all carb cravings go away like magic!,  including alcohol cravings.   A secret:  Many alcoholics are really just (or simultaneously) addicted to stimulants and sugar.   Once they can kick the sugar and caffeine (spikes cordisol and blood glucose levels) cigarettes, etc. addictions they can eliminate alcohol cravings.   I know... It worked from me.   I also lost 30 pounds almost without even trying after going primal / paleo.  Also, now I'm 37 with a six pack (not bragging) and I do no long distance, medium paced cardio which is not natural (we're designed for acute stress and we adapt to it).   Instead, I do some moderate weight training (functional, full range of motion exercises like squats, deadlifts, presses, etc) and do sprints once in a while... plus lots of walking!   This is the key.  See Mark Sisson for more on this.    Plus, my food has never tasted better!  Primal foods are the best!

 

6,  Why the hell is government recommending to society what foods to eat?  And why the hell would we even think of taking their advice?   Well, many have and we see the results quite clearly.   Here's the "best" diet:  http://www.jackkruse.com/brain-gut-6-epi-paleo-rx/

 

Here's Dr. Attia discussing the ethics of food guidelines, and the lack of evidence supporting the conventional wisdom that fat and cholesterol cause heart disease.  

 

[wdiaz03]

Actually the thread has kind of skewed from my original intention?

 

I wanted to talk about a couple of ethical things:

• Was Stephan's comments in the video offensive and insensitive? As I've mentioned earlier, 3 weeks ago I would not have been offended. Now, after watching Dr. Attia's video, I was offended.
• Did Stephan us the logical fallacy "correlation does not imply causation"?

So the correlation/causation leads into the question:

• Does obesity cause all of the other diseases that seem to coencide with it, (Diabetes, Heart Disease, Cancer etc.) or is it just a symptom of some other underlying disease/environmental factor that causes them all?
• What is the underlying mechanism causing fat retention/loss?
• The majority of people who loose weight on a diet gain it all back within a year or two. Why is that?
• How much willpower does an average person have? Is it a limited resource? If not, then in make sense that most people would break their diet due to lack of willpower.
• Are there mechanism to stop the cravings and the addictive nature of some foods?
• All of these diseases seem to increase rapidly after the introduction of the food guilds. Are these guilds a factor in the epidemic?

I had a feeling that when I posted a video by Dr. Attia, (Popular in the Paleo world), that things may degenerated into a Vegan/Paleo debate. This debate should be moved to another thread.

 

My two cents, my initial reaction when watching both videos, (Attia and Stefan) was that The Dr was wrong for judging this particular patient before knowing the details of how she ended up how she did. He basically jumped to conclusions. Stefan was talking about a general trend that people that are obese eat way too much.

These arguments are different. Just because obesity is caused by bad eating habits does not mean that a particular obese person has bad heating habits. The Doctor was incorrect. Stefan is citing statistics and general trends.

 

I think this is a gray area to determine how much personal responsibility a person has regarding the types of food he/she eats. Part government propaganda, part media, part personal responsibility.

 

Does it matter if obesity causes these diseases? Maybe its a good (probable) indicator of bad eating habits and poor lifestyle choices.

 

The majority of people that loose weight and gain it all back most likely do not understand the role food plays in their bodies or/and may have psychological issues with food. If they do not understand the role of food they drastically cut back their intake and loose weight, this drastic reduction is not sustainable and the minute they start eating like before the weight returns. If they have psychological issues it might make it harder to stick to a particular eating lifestyle since they see food as a drug or type of comfort.

 

Mechanisms to stop cravings? maybe therapy can help...knowing the why. Most people jump into a diet without knowing the why, I think that's a recipe for failure. I think it is important to first understand why one is overweight before  even considering the best plan of action. "Know thyself"

[Henry1958]

My two cents, my initial reaction when watching both videos, (Attia and Stefan) was that The Dr was wrong for judging this particular patient before knowing the details of how she ended up how she did. He basically jumped to conclusions. Stefan was talking about a general trend that people that are obese eat way too much.

These arguments are different. Just because obesity is caused by bad eating habits does not mean that a particular obese person has bad heating habits. The Doctor was incorrect. Stefan is citing statistics and general trends.

 

 

I guess I can bring in some other statistics from the CDC for a demonstration:http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsObesityAdults/"Compared with whites, blacks had 51% higher and Hispanics had 21% higher obesity rates"And then change Stephan's statements to:"Don't give me this bullshit that everybody has some thyroid problem. No! Blacks eat too much and don't exercise." and "...they're generally such an unhealthy group of people that they desperately need all the medications that keep their fat blacks asses walking around. "I think this could be problematic.

[wdiaz03]

I guess I can bring in some other statistics from the CDC for a demonstration:http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsObesityAdults/"Compared with whites, blacks had 51% higher and Hispanics had 21% higher obesity rates"And then change Stephan's statements to:"Don't give me this bullshit that everybody has some thyroid problem. No! Blacks eat too much and don't exercise." and "...they're generally such an unhealthy group of people that they desperately need all the medications that keep their fat blacks asses walking around. "I think this could be problematic.

 

Not sure where you are going with this. Are you taking it out of context? As I see it when he says "people eat too much" I understood to mean "these obese people that I talked about earlier eat too much"

 

Do you not agree with this statement? at 5:04

 

"...The whole point is that people make bad choices, they get sick and then they panic..."

 

I think it is important whether obesity and related problems come as the result of "bad choices".

 

Do you believe this to be the case?

[CrazyCanuck]

Not sure where you are going with this. Are you taking it out of context? As I see it when he says "people eat too much" I understood to mean "these obese people that I talked about earlier eat too much"

 

Do you not agree with this statement? at 5:04

 

"...The whole point is that people make bad choices, they get sick and then they panic..."

 

I think it is important whether obesity and related problems come as the result of "bad choices".

 

Do you believe this to be the case?

 

 

 

 

I believe it's more lifestyle than diet.  People who watch tv frequently more likely to eat more and have illness and decrease their life span.  For some reason watching tv causes cortisol to increase for longer duration.  According to the study even changing diet didn't help.  I am not sure about weight loss but it's more likely people will eat unhealthy foods while watching tv frequently.  That's why handling stress is important to weight loss.

 

http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/stresscortisol.html

[CrazyCanuck]

The Textbook of Medical Physiology, states: “All body fat is made from glucose”. (–Not dietary fat, mind you, but G-L-U-C-O-S-E:  i.e., sugar/carbs).   That's pretty "cut and dry".  Facts are facts and it's clear how the body processes carbs / sugar (as blood glucose) versus dietary fat.    The hormone leptin (the master hormone that regulates hunger and metabolism and all other hormones) responds to fat in the diet.    A carb based diet disrupts the function of leptin.  This is why people on carbs over eat generally and can't get enough... and need to snack or eat every 2 to 3 hours.  This is not normal.  We wouldn't have survived as a species if we had to eat this often. Fat burns steady and slow and we can go a long time without eating.  I sometimes fast for 18 hours or more for the health benefits.  Also, hormones are built using fat and cholesterol.   The brain is largely comprised saturated fat, high in omega 3's and is the largest store of cholesterol in the body.

 

ARE YOU A FAT BURNER OR A SUGAR BURNER?

http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/tag/fat/

The paleo diet has not been debunked.  See this information.   http://robbwolf.com/2013/04/04/debunking-paleo-diet-wolfs-eye-view/

Cortisol directly effects fat storage and weight gain in stressed individuals. Tissue cortisol concentrations are controlled by a specific enzyme that converts inactive cortisone to active cortisol (9-11). This particular enzyme is located in adipose (fat) tissues. Studies with human visceral (fat surrounding the stomach and intestines) and subcutaneous fat tissue have demonstrated that the gene for this enzyme is expressed more by obese conditions (11). It has also been demonstrated in research that human visceral fat cells have more of these enzymes compared to subcutaneous fat cells. Thus, higher levels of these enzymes in these deep fat cells surrounding the abdomen may lead to obesity due to greater amounts of cortisol being produced at the tissue level. As well, deep abdominal fat has greater blood flow and four times more cortisol receptors compared to subcutaneous fat (8). This may also increase cortisol’s fat accumulating and fat cell size enlarging effect. 

 

http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/stresscortisol.html

 

 

Btw I didn't say eating a diet with fruit is healthy just stating that a low fat diet can cause weight maybe not true. Raw vegans tend to eat a low carb and low fat diet.  Of course do eat a higher fat diet but those people tend to end up with cancer.

[Henry1958]

Not sure where you are going with this. Are you taking it out of context? As I see it when he says "people eat too much" I understood to mean "these obese people that I talked about earlier eat too much"

 

Do you not agree with this statement? at 5:04

 

"...The whole point is that people make bad choices, they get sick and then they panic..."

 

I think it is important whether obesity and related problems come as the result of "bad choices".

 

Do you believe this to be the case?

 

 

My example was based on your statement: "Stefan is citing statistics and general trends.". I did the same thing but replace the statistics about Obese people in general to black people. It was just to make a point.I guess another example is to bring this issue into one of Stephan's favorite issues of children.http://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/obesity/facts.htmSo I can't replace "Black" with "Children", but when the children turn 16, (adults, no longer the responsibility of their parents), they automatically get lumped into Stephan's original statements and should get off their lazy asses, eat properly and exercise.Regarding choice, most of the "choices" were made under the advise of the government, media, and doctors. For example, my mother switching from butter to margarine. Most people believe the food guild which is posted in every doctors office. Eat a diet high in carbohydrates.My contention is that we are now living through the consequences of these recommendations.Watch the videos by Gary Taube. 

 Of course do eat a higher fat diet but those people tend to end up with cancer.

 

This is an interesting directions for research. Do you know if any studies differentiated between the types of fats consumed? animal vs vegetable, saturated vs unsaturated, processed vs cold processed? 

[CrazyCanuck]

  

 

This is an interesting directions for research. Do you know if any studies differentiated between the types of fats consumed? animal vs vegetable, saturated vs unsaturated, processed vs cold processed? 

My statement was according Dr Jameth Sheridian.  He advocates mainly a raw diet.  However he stated he found people couldn't go 100% after a period of time.  These people know all about healthy fats, etc.  They consume coconuts (saturated fats). Since the raw food vegan community are into raw they know about cold pressed.  And of course they know about animal vs vegetable fat.  Paleo doesn't every for everyone.  Paleo probably works due to food combining theory.

 

 

http://bodyecology.com/articles/food_combining_optimal_health_and_weight.php#.Uoo_d6WPlz8

[Henry1958]

Here's a link to the a study done in Japan about red meat and cancer.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/73040.php

It's just one study so you can take that with a grain of salt.

I've also noticed a lot of chat about sugar and cancer growth. Here is a link to they Mayo clinic stating it is a myth.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cancer-causes/CA00085/NSECTIONGROUP=2
 

"This misconception may be based in part on a misunderstanding of positron emission tomography (PET) scans, which use a small amount of radioactive tracer — typically a form of glucose. All tissues in your body absorb some of this tracer, but tissues that are using more energy — including cancer cells — absorb greater amounts. For this reason, some people have concluded that cancer cells grow faster on sugar. But this isn't true. "

Here is a study saying that one specific type of sugar "truncated O-glycans" aid in the growth and spread of cancer. This is September 23, 2013 study so very recent so the Mayo clinic web site is probably just out of date.

http://www.oncologynurseadvisor.com/specific-sugar-molecule-causes-growth-of-cancer-cells/article/312933/
 

"For 30 years, many scientists have worked on using the truncated 0-glycans as biomarkers for diagnostics and outcome predictions. Now, this research team has finally pinpointed the significance of these sugar molecules, which actually cause the cancer cells to grow and the cancer to spread more aggressively."

 

I found a link to a video of Dr, Jameth Sheridan which I thought I'd share since he'sbeing interviewed by John Kohler who has two YouTube channels, "Growing your Greens" and "Discount Juicers". I love organic gardening, eat tons of raw foods and like to juice vegetables, and fruits (less now and fruits low sugar ). I kind of started on this quest after watching the movie "Sick Fat and Almost Dead" which is how I was feeling at the time. I did a 30 day fast which was interesting, and am still doing research.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFNFGgGGi8U

He certainly makes it sound like staying on a Vegan diet is difficult and requires a lot of forethought and diligence. As for Paleo, (especially the later, less restrictive versions), I find that they are it much easier to follow since they are quite flexible.

I have found that Vegan and Paleo diets have a lot of commonalities. Stress fresh organic foods, Lots of vegetables and leafy greens, moderation and variety of the foods, etc.

Where I find the two camps differ as follows

I would consider Paleo basically amoral, except that they do stress grass fed and free range, ethical kill/butchering since they don't want extra hormons in the meat that are released during butchering.
Vegans tend to come in two camps. The ones doing it for health reasons, (Health Vegans) and the ones doing it for moral reasons, (Moral Vegans).

Paleos and Health Vegans tend to have minimal conflicts since they are both striving to achieve the goal of optimal health.

Paleos and Moral Vegans tend to have conflicts which I believe does not come from their difference in food choices but their general belief systems. In general Paleos tend to be libertarian, whereas Moral Vegans tend to be authoritarian. This is just my observation on the trends I've observed in each of the groups.

One moral argument for Vegetarian/Vegans that I find very compelling is the statement: "If I can kill it, I'll eat it". This is a very personal which can't be used to dictate your beliefs on others.


 

[CrazyCanuck]

Mycotoxins can cause a variety of adverse health effects in humans. Aflatoxins, including aflatoxin B1 are the most toxic and have been shown to be genotoxic i.e. can damage DNA and cause cancer in animal species. There is also evidence that they can cause liver cancer in humans.

 

 

http://www.food.gov.uk/policy-advice/mycotoxins/#.Uop1paWPlz8

 

Sugars promote cancer growth btw especially refined sugars.

 

 

 

 

 

Q Can mycotoxins cause cancer? A Yes they can and they do. According to the Cornell University Department of Animal Sciences, one mycotoxin, known as Aflatoxin, indisputably causes cancer in animals; “The induction of cancer by aflatoxins has been extensively studied. Aflatoxin B1, aflatoxin M1, and aflatoxin G1 have been shown to cause various types of cancer in different animal species. However, only aflatoxin B1 is considered by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) as having produced sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity in experimental animals to be identified as a carcinogen."

 

Q Are humans exposed to mycotoxins?A Fungi are everywhere but probably most dangerous right under our noses. The inhalation of toxic molds can represent a serious health threat to us all. Drs. Wang and Groopman stated in 1998, and others since, that mycotoxins commonly contaminate human food. Avoidance of peanuts and grains, including sugar, and alcohol at very least minimizes fungal and mycotoxin exposure.

 

 

 

 

http://www.knowthecause.com/index.php/doug-s-blog/342-cancer-and-fungus

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Cancer-Cause-Cure-Mycotoxins-Cholesterol/dp/098882065X

[wdiaz03]

Regarding choice, most of the "choices" were made under the advise of the government, media, and doctors. For example, my mother switching from butter to margarine. Most people believe the food guild which is posted in every doctors office. Eat a diet high in carbohydrates.My contention is that we are now living through the consequences of these recommendations.

 

Fair enough, but as a different perspective. What is the governments recommendation regarding exercise? And how many people do it? And how many do it for the right reasons. (not counting guys on steroids and the "I want to look good no matter what" crowd?)

 

I think it is a bigger problem than "expert fault". It seems to be a culture of looking at the body as a means to an end, A temporary vessel to be used for the pleasure of the mind. People drink alcohol, smoke, do drugs, eat junk food, get into debt, procrastinate. Its all about living the moment because tomorrow you might die. Then tomorrow comes and everyone tries to escape the consequences of their actions. I can't treat people like little children, I want to give them the respect they deserve as human beings and that means accepting the consequences.

 

So yes, the government and experts can say what they want but ultimately it is your body and you have to decide. I mean Atkins was ringing the "sugar and processed food" bell since 1958 or so. The information was out there. All that was required was a few months of trial to see results. But this is not what people want, people want their cake and eat it too.

[Henry1958]

Fair enough, but as a different perspective. What is the governments recommendation regarding exercise? And how many people do it? And how many do it for the right reasons. (not counting guys on steroids and the "I want to look good no matter what" crowd?)

 

http://www.gyminsight.com/blog/2013/05/most-current-fitness-industry-statistics/

"According to the IHRSA statistics, the number of health club or gym memberships has increased from 41.3 million in 2005 to 50.2 million in 2012."

 

I do go to a gym and there are a lot of people there, many overweight, some obese, most there for health reasons. The steroid jocks are by far the minority, and please do tell me what's so bad about wanting to look good?Why don't you do two seconds of research before posting your bullshit? 

[CrazyCanuck]

http://www.gyminsight.com/blog/2013/05/most-current-fitness-industry-statistics/

"According to the IHRSA statistics, the number of health club or gym memberships has increased from 41.3 million in 2005 to 50.2 million in 2012."

 

I do go to a gym and there are a lot of people there, many overweight, some obese, most there for health reasons. The steroid jocks are by far the minority, and please do tell me what's so bad about wanting to look good?

 

Why don't you do two seconds of research before posting your bullshit?

 

 

 

 

 

Let's see according to the site:

 

 

"The most current reports show number of people who have at least used a health club in 2012 increased those with memberships by 8 million in the same year.["

 

 

It says the number of people used gyms.  However it doesn't state how frequently.  Maybe they used only once or maybe for a few months then stop going.  In order for exercise to be beneficial you need to do it consistently.  So those numbers maybe not accurate if you take accord of regularly exercising approved to at least exercised a few times. Many people stop going eventually and that's why many gyms make good money.

 

 

 

In 2010, despite the grim economic times, U.S. gym membership surpassed 50 million people -- after several years of fluctuating between 45 million and 46 million, according to the International Health, Racquet & Sportsclub Association. But health-club members have been showing up less and less, about 98 days in 2010, compared with 102 days the year before.

Becky Connors, who is a regular at Bethany Athletic Club's group fitness classes, remembers one former co-worker who signed up for a health club online, then never showed up to work out.

"Not even once," said Connors, still in disbelief.

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2012/01/four_out_of_five_gym_membershi.html

[wdiaz03]

http://www.gyminsight.com/blog/2013/05/most-current-fitness-industry-statistics/

"According to the IHRSA statistics, the number of health club or gym memberships has increased from 41.3 million in 2005 to 50.2 million in 2012."

 

I do go to a gym and there are a lot of people there, many overweight, some obese, most there for health reasons. The steroid jocks are by far the minority, and please do tell me what's so bad about wanting to look good?Why don't you do two seconds of research before posting your bullshit? 

 

I'm not going to bother with your comments, It seems obvious to me that you are not looking for any productive discussion here.