Why is my kid more violent when I eschew violence?

[DanielJPetrik]

After listening to some FDR podcasts and "The Origins of War in Child Abuse" by Lloyd DeMause I decided my Wife and I should try more empathy in our child-rearing. We have an eleven year old and a four year old.  The older boy is naturally solicitious and quite, the younger has always been cantankerous and pugnacious.  The younger boy will scream, cry, hit, and the like to get what he wants.  The more we try to anticipate his needs or wants or we try to help him with get what he wants while still respecting his brother and us, the more he relies on aggressive means.  If, however, we become angry and spank or ingnore him, he becomes much more sociable and polite.  I want to believe children are rational, and I don't like to see my children cry, but I can't accept the poor results of trying to rationalize with a 4 year old.  I hope I am simply doing it wrong.  What further questions or suggestions do you have for me.  Both my children have "learning disabilities" if it is germane.  We were told by a pediatric specialist that our oldest "would be fine if he lived in a 19th century farming community" -- a euphanism for "there's nothing wrong. he's not retarded, but not bright."  And the younger is way behind on his speech, counting, colors and the like.  My Wife has been a full-time mother and I have often been away as a trucker.  I've had a job where I'm home every day since the youngest was two.

[_LiveFree_]

Give a history of how you've interacted with both kids, how you've "disciplined" them, how much time is spent with them, etc. 

[ThatAtheistPlace]

What was your wife's childhood like?  When you say full-time mother, does that mean she home-schools the oldest, or are the kids in school and/or preschool?  And I agree with Nathan, it would be helpful to know more about how you disciplined them?  From what you've posted it sounds like you spanked, tried to stop spanking and talk to your children, but spanked when they didn't listen, and are now considering spanking as the primary means of correction?  Also, when you say "I can't accept the poor results of trying to rationalize with a 4 year old." can you give a specific situation that details how you've attempted this?

 

We were told by a pediatric specialist that our oldest "would be fine if he lived in a 19th century farming community"

 

 

What an awful thing to say.  Especially if they are basically at a "normal" developmental level, I'm guessing?  What did you feel when the specialist told you this?  Again, just from the post, it sounds like you weren't really taken aback?  This is just an observation, but I thought you should know my overall impression from how you wrote this was that you don't expect much of your children?  If that's true, is that because of what their physician's have said or is there another reason?

 

When you say you've listened to some FDR podcasts can you expound?

 

Thanks and what a wonderful post.  I commend you for seeking more clarity around this subject and I am looking forward to others' responses!

[LifeIsBrief]

I don't have children, so unfortunately I cannot give you any advice in that regard... All I can say, is that... That specialist couldn't survive in a 19th century farming community, and they should go blank themselves for suggesting that the people who feed his/her lazy entitled behind are somehow "less than".   Best of luck

[LovePrevails]

Your child has obviously gotten used to responding to aggression as a type of conditioning

 

you have a bit of a road ahead of you to reorient the relationship, there is no magic wand, it's going to take some time

you can start by teaching your child some skills that may help him improve his socialisation

 

From an article I wrote:

 

All behaviour is a strategy for meeting certain desires and trying to get something from the environment. If we understand this, then we know that good modelling (practicing what we preach, including expressing our needs in a mature fashion) and preserving the good will in our relationships are the primary predicates to preventing. We must always strive to use our experience, intelligence and empathy to understand what is motivating a child to behave the way they are, from this stand point we can work with them instead of doing something to them. Rather than imposing consequences which can put a real strain on the good will in our relationship, taking a methodical approach can free us to be our dynamic selves rather than simply run a cause-and-effect program of action and consequence. We understand the child’s needs and act to prevent a reoccurrence.

 

1) Why are they behaving the way they are? What do they want?

2) How have they been treated in the past that may have lead them to think this is a good idea? Is it the only way they know of saying something?

3) Are there alternative ways that they could impress the same wants, desires, feelings or needs upon us, and can we teach them or suggest they do those instead?

4) Can we empathise with them so they know we are on their side and they want to be on our side as well. Can we identify their feelings and say things like, “you must be furious,” or “I know you are frustrated…” to show we understand. Have we taken the time to build up lots of good will between us so that they want to cooperate with us and find mutually satisfying solutions?

5) Have about talking out solutions? Can we suggest some or help them come up with their own ideas?

6) Negotiate, Negotiate, Negotiate! The more practice the child has in problem solving the more their sense of efficaciousness at doing it ties into their self-respect and they cultivate a talent of reasoning and discussing that will likely serve them for life.

It is always important to discuss the incident in hindsight when things have calmed down (days later if you wish) so that you can come to agreements over how to deal with similar situations in the future without fighting.

 

Prevention is better than cure, so what we really want to do is teach children better ways of communication all the time, rather than waiting for altercations, so that if and when things do get strained they can fall back on these skills which they have already internalised through practicing when calm (think of preparing for a piano recital, because last minute nerves may make you more likely to make mistakes you get plenty of practice when stress-free.)

 

Ask yourself these questions about your child:

1) Do they know how to express their feelings about things?

Eg. “Daddy I am furious that Edward broke my kite,” “Mommy I’m so happy you’re home.”

2) Can they differentiate between different strong unpleasant emotions like feeling angry, frustrated, upset, confused, jealous, guilty, shameful or do they all muddle together into a blur?

3) Can they clearly express their needs? Can they explain what they want and why?

4) Can they express conflicting thoughts when they’re ambivalent? “Part of me wants to do this because… but another part of me wants to do that because…” This talent is a great predicate to discussing the relative value of different options.

5) Can they reason? For example, if there is no fuel in the car engine, then the car won’t run, but that doesn’t mean that just because the car won’t run there is no fuel in the engine, it could be something else. Can they understand this kind of logic?

6) Can they identify other people’s feelings, thoughts, and needs?

7) Can they empathise with other people’s feelings when they are expressed? It is up to you to demonstrate how this is done.

If they can’t do some (or any) of these things yet, then perhaps you can begin learning to start expressing yourself in these ways and pass on these essential skills by example. Teach them to do the same as you are doing by pointing out their feelings, by asking them what they need, for example – put it to them “does part of you want to do this because this, and part of you want to do that because that.” Teach them good reasoning and how to spot logical fallacies. By expressing your own feelings, thoughts and needs you also teach them to become aware of the inner environment of others, and by empathising with them you teach them to empathise.

 

www.youtube.com/theprogressiveparent

[powersquash]

That was beautifully put loveprevails. In my own experience, my wife and I have never been physically abusive to our son. We did, however, not treat him with the respect and reason described above (I.e. negotiating with him. Getting to the root of his emotions and whatnot ). We used to just manage him, not interact with him. I used to dread going to the grocery store because he acted so "unruly" and would scream and cry when he didn't get whatever it was he wanted.

 

We began actually parenting him and getting to the core emotion or reason behind his frustrations when he was about 1.5 years old. He just turned two this week and the difference in his overall happiness is enormous. He rarely gets upset because he has somewhat of a grasp of reasoning IMO. He understands that he can only have a few pieces of his Halloween candy at a time because we negotiate beforehand how many he can have and the reasoning behind it. He understands that when we say we are going to spend 1 hour at the park and then go to the grocery store that his time is limited and doesn't put up a fuss AT ALL when it is time to leave. The smile on his face this morning when I not only let him choose between milk or juice but also which cup he would like to drink out of makes the aforementioned time spent teaching him choices so worth it.

 

To sum up, this will cost a lot of time and patience. You and your wife taught your children this behaviour. Don't be mad at them for it. Its not easy but listen to me brother, so fucking worth it. If I knew how much of a difference it made before he was born, he would not even know you could just dissociate from his emotions like I first taught him. I wish the best to you on this journey you are about to take on. Be strong with yourself and you shall soon be reaping the benefits.

[DanielJPetrik]

Give a history of how you've interacted with both kids, how you've "disciplined" them, how much time is spent with them, etc. 

I had very little interaction with either of the kids before 2011.  I was either working two jobs or had an Over-the-Road position.  They were then 9 and 2 years old.  For the last 2 years I have worked overnights and been off on the weekends.  I see the younger from after preschool and the older from after school until 6pm or so.  I have in the past participated in a Martial Arts progam with the older for just under a year, and I watched the little ones kinder-sports at the YMCA.  I don't really play with them much.  The older has never played, even when small, and seems to prefer being left in alone in his room with his electronics.  I wrestle with the little one a lot, but not much else.  Neither ask me to do much with them.  The Wife insists, and I don't doubt her, that she read, played, and tried to stimulate both the kids when they were small.  She is now very active in their sports and school.

 

Our discipline for small infractions consists of telling "no."  I have been trying very hard add the explaination of "why" without having to be asked.  The Wife is finding it harder to add the "why."  Next, we will try to phyically remove them.  For example, if the little one is in the kitchen while the stove is oneor something similar and he won't go we will pick him up and put him in the other room.  Sometimes I set him on the opposite counter to watch, but not always.  Removing him usually ends up with screaming and a prompt return.  We are also guilty of pushing him off on the older boy.  If all this fails we will often yell and put him in his room, which results in screaming, pounding, and him destroying his room. 

 

For major infractions we would often deliever a fast spank on the butt.  Not an extended beating, but I admit I hit to cause pain.  A major infraction would be something that could really hurt him-- like going into the road.  I was always told that little kids can't understand danger, so you should try to make them remember the danger with a spank.  After they get to a certain age, you can stop.  I haven't spanked the older one since he was 6 or 7 years.  I am also ashamed to admit--because I understand the logical absurdity now-- that I have spanked the younger for hitting the older. 

 

The older is so quiet and introverted that he may get nagged a few times a week for not putting all the dishes a way.  It seems like one of us is yelling at the younger at least twice a day. 

What was your wife's childhood like?  When you say full-time mother, does that mean she home-schools the oldest, or are the kids in school and/or preschool?  And I agree with Nathan, it would be helpful to know more about how you disciplined them?  From what you've posted it sounds like you spanked, tried to stop spanking and talk to your children, but spanked when they didn't listen, and are now considering spanking as the primary means of correction?  Also, when you say "I can't accept the poor results of trying to rationalize with a 4 year old." can you give a specific situation that details how you've attempted this?

 

 

 

What an awful thing to say.  Especially if they are basically at a "normal" developmental level, I'm guessing?  What did you feel when the specialist told you this?  Again, just from the post, it sounds like you weren't really taken aback?  This is just an observation, but I thought you should know my overall impression from how you wrote this was that you don't expect much of your children?  If that's true, is that because of what their physician's have said or is there another reason?

 

When you say you've listened to some FDR podcasts can you expound?

 

Thanks and what a wonderful post.  I commend you for seeking more clarity around this subject and I am looking forward to others' responses!

The wife is trying to imitate her childhood prior to her parents getting divorced when she was a young teen.  She remembers that time as warm and pleasant with a lot of family interaction.  Both our kids are in public school.  We considered homeschooling the older boy, and made a trial of it over the summer.  We were not able to make any improvements in his learning, so let him continue in public school as he wished.  I did my best to explain how we had previously thought of discipline in the post above.

 

I wasn't taked aback at the specialist's description of the older boy.  It was 5 or 6 years ago now, and it seems to explain how he is. We had been taking him to various pediatric developmental specialists trying to find out why he was so far behind in his speech and motorskills development and why he exhibited so many signs of autism.  We have never really had any problems with the older's behavior.  I only mentioned it as a reason why the younger is able to abuse a boy 7 years older than himself.

 

An example of how I get frusterated about trying to rationalize with a 4yo would be as follows.  He really likes to climb all over us.  Which is sometimes cute and loving, but other times he really seems to be trying to annoy us.  He will climb up onto our lap and continually put his hands all over our faces or pretend to give you a kiss and then spit on you.  Or if I am helping him get dressed he will blow into my face.  I've told him many times people don't like things put in their faces, and other people will be mad if he comes up and blows in their faces, that it's rude.  It does't seem to matter.  After I have an explosion over it, the face blowing or eye touching or whatever will stop for a few days.

 

Sorry that this post is so terse.  I admit I was afraid to come on and check to see if anyone had responded.  Thank everyone for taking this post seriously and offering advice and additional questions.

[ThatAtheistPlace]

Daniel, the sheer fact that you are posing these questions speaks volumes as to how the rest of your children's lives will play out already.  It sounds like your eyes are beginning to open, but that you may still have a lot of work ahead.  Their formative years have already established you as a distant, violent, irrational man, it would seem, so it may require more than a book and a few podcasts for you to realize how deep the hole was dug in order for you to undo that damage initially.  Again, kudos on initiating such a difficult conversation and I, for one, appreciate just how honest you're being.

 

A couple of things that jump out at me...  It makes me wonder why your wife would want to emulate a relationship that ultimately failed?  Also, why do you call your children "the boy" or "the older boy" etc?  That's probably a very tiny thing, but it just makes me feel like the disconnect that happened from you not physically being there still lingers deeply within yourself, as well as them.  i get the impression that you feel they push you away, but you really can't blame them for not accepting your attempts at closeness when it sounds like you're approaching them with the preconceived notion/self-fulfilling prophecy that they don't want your affections.  Now that you are around them more often, are your rebuffed attempts to connect with your children calling forth feelings that you've experienced before?  Have there been other times in your life, particularly with your own parents, where you have attempted to be close only to have your affections minimized or met with coldness?

 

I don't have many immediate answers for you, other than that you are sincerely going to have to take your time to reach them again.  You and your wife would benefit from therapy and a look back at how both your adolescences are recreating themselves in some way.  But to have both a wild child and a severe introvert on your hands both would seem to come from a serious lack of boundary establishment (one has none and the other created a massive one) and from not truly allowing them to develop their own identities.  At 4 and even at an 11 that's taking his time, they have these fully formed personalities that are just brimming beneath a surface of authority figures telling them who they are and who they should be and how they can best be "good".

 

This is all just my two cents, obviously, but man I would highly recommend you grabbing a copy of the first bit of Peaceful Parenting from Stef and trying to foster a serious curiosity about your kids, as opposed to simply seeking a different way of managing them.  I really hope this helps and isn't coming across wrong.  It's obvious you love your children, because you're seeking to go down this path, but that "love" shouldn't be exhibited as it was defined for you growing up, if that makes sense?

[CrazyCanuck]

 

A couple of things that jump out at me...  It makes me wonder why your wife would want to emulate a relationship that ultimately failed? 

 

 

 

Children learn from their parents.  When they grow up they usually adopt these certain things.  Unless they get good therapy or something else it's bound to happen.  It's no surprise I have seen with my sisters.

[DanielJPetrik]

Daniel, the sheer fact that you are posing these questions speaks volumes as to how the rest of your children's lives will play out already.  It sounds like your eyes are beginning to open, but that you may still have a lot of work ahead.  Their formative years have already established you as a distant, violent, irrational man, it would seem, so it may require more than a book and a few podcasts for you to realize how deep the hole was dug in order for you to undo that damage initially.  Again, kudos on initiating such a difficult conversation and I, for one, appreciate just how honest you're being.

 

A couple of things that jump out at me...  It makes me wonder why your wife would want to emulate a relationship that ultimately failed?  Also, why do you call your children "the boy" or "the older boy" etc?  That's probably a very tiny thing, but it just makes me feel like the disconnect that happened from you not physically being there still lingers deeply within yourself, as well as them.  i get the impression that you feel they push you away, but you really can't blame them for not accepting your attempts at closeness when it sounds like you're approaching them with the preconceived notion/self-fulfilling prophecy that they don't want your affections.  Now that you are around them more often, are your rebuffed attempts to connect with your children calling forth feelings that you've experienced before?  Have there been other times in your life, particularly with your own parents, where you have attempted to be close only to have your affections minimized or met with coldness?

 

I don't have many immediate answers for you, other than that you are sincerely going to have to take your time to reach them again.  You and your wife would benefit from therapy and a look back at how both your adolescences are recreating themselves in some way.  But to have both a wild child and a severe introvert on your hands both would seem to come from a serious lack of boundary establishment (one has none and the other created a massive one) and from not truly allowing them to develop their own identities.  At 4 and even at an 11 that's taking his time, they have these fully formed personalities that are just brimming beneath a surface of authority figures telling them who they are and who they should be and how they can best be "good".

 

This is all just my two cents, obviously, but man I would highly recommend you grabbing a copy of the first bit of Peaceful Parenting from Stef and trying to foster a serious curiosity about your kids, as opposed to simply seeking a different way of managing them.  I really hope this helps and isn't coming across wrong.  It's obvious you love your children, because you're seeking to go down this path, but that "love" shouldn't be exhibited as it was defined for you growing up, if that makes sense?

 

"...trying to foster a serious curiosity about your kids, as opposed to simply seeking a different way of managing them."  I think this is the crux of the thing.  I'll ruminate on that for a little while, check out Peaceful Parenting and go on from that. 

[Roberto]

This is all just my two cents, obviously, but man I would highly recommend you grabbing a copy of the first bit of Peaceful Parenting from Stef and trying to foster a serious curiosity about your kids, as opposed to simply seeking a different way of managing them.  I really hope this helps and isn't coming across wrong.  It's obvious you love your children, because you're seeking to go down this path, but that "love" shouldn't be exhibited as it was defined for you growing up, if that makes sense?

 

PheePhyPhoPhum: is there a book or a paper on Peaceful Parenting from Stef? Could you send me the link or where is it located. I cannot find it. Thank you.

[Wesley]

PheePhyPhoPhum: is there a book or a paper on Peaceful Parenting from Stef? Could you send me the link or where is it located. I cannot find it. Thank you.

It is still in progress. A first draft is available in the Gold + forums. Otherwise you would have to probably wait for the final to be produced and it to be released.

[ThatAtheistPlace]

I'm sure if you contact Stef he could work something out with you, or g'head and donate (you will NOT regret it).

[ROLLNSONG]

PheePhyPhoPhum: is there a book or a paper on Peaceful Parenting from Stef? Could you send me the link or where is it located. I cannot find it. Thank you.

I like to recommend the book "Liberated Parents, Liberated Children: Your Guide to a Happier Family" and "How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen, and How to Listen So They'll Talk" both by Adele Farber and Elaine Mazlish

I was introduced to these books before I'd heard of Stef but I admit I hadn't really focused on them until right after I started listening to him.  It was like, "OMG!  I knew I could do better!  Now let me make it happen!"  These two books are really good about showing how the principles of peaceful parenting can be implemented in real life.  They also focus on families that didn't start as peaceful parents, so all the bad habits are being destroyed and slowly replaced by the good stuff.  Both books can be found cheap on Amazon.