Coreforcruxes Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 Hello all, I am gearing up to approach some family of mine that employs corporal punishment. So I am first trying to put together the very best case I can against spanking. I also told a friend of this impending situation who has not been convinced by me that spanking is wrong. Thankfully our conversation did enlighten me as to how poor I was at making the case and that there is far more research advocating corporal punishment than I expected. i have searched the forums and cannot find a thread providing the best case against spanking. So please if you can provide me with your best case against spanking and any pro or con research pertaining to it. i consider this one of the most important things I have ever done and want to fully plan and prepare. Thank you so very much, and If I get a decent amount and quality of FDR participation in the thread I'll donate extra for the month.
LovePrevails Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 this might help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IalPvNCC3k
Bulbasaur Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 I would be prepared to argue not just from empirical statistics, but also from first principles. Outcome-oriented arguments can be difficult to sell, because it's really tough for most people to get beyond "well, I turned out alright." Accepting the position that spanking is damaging requires admitting that they themselves may be damaged, which will trigger all their subconscious defenses.
BigSecksi Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 The problem is there isn't any strong empirical data. In fact I find the better science tends to be on the side of spanking. Which coincides with my opinion that there is an important stage in a young child's life when spanking is a viable means of behavior correction. When they lack the ability to understand complex reasons why a behavior/action is dangerous then a little CP to adjust behavior is OK as long as it is part of good parenting approach. Never hit in anger and always provide reasons why the spanking was applied.
Alan C. Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 In fact I find the better science tends to be on the side of spanking. What science?
BigSecksi Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 What science? One of the best papers in my opinion was publish by the Akron Law review. It looked into the explosion of youth violence that occurred in Sweden after there was a ban placed on corporal punishment. From a law of large numbers stand point Sweden is an ideal test bed for the differences made in the application of CP. There are also 26 studies touted by former head of the American Academy of Pediatricians that showed that spanking was far better at adjusting behavior than 18 other forms of non-CP behavior correction. There are studies dating back to 1997 from Marjorie Gunnoe. There was a 10 year study done by one of the California colleges. They studied 160 something families for a decade and found no negative impact from spanking. I will have to dig up that article to give more specifics.
DGB Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 "When they lack the ability to understand complex reasons why a behavior/action is dangerous then a little CP to adjust behavior is OK as long as it is part of good parenting approach. Never hit in anger and always provide reasons why the spanking was applied. "There is a contradiction here. You should be able to see it.
LovePrevails Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 My advice: be very very familiar with constructive alternatives to spanking show curiosity and ask when they think it is appropriate to spank a child and why paraphrase "Ah right, I see where you're coming from, so you'd to that to ensue n and blah blah blah" then say, "how about you deal with the situation this way ..... ...... don't you think that would be better because it would teach the child x y and z and secure the good will in your relationship for life?"
BigSecksi Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 "When they lack the ability to understand complex reasons why a behavior/action is dangerous then a little CP to adjust behavior is OK as long as it is part of good parenting approach. Never hit in anger and always provide reasons why the spanking was applied. "There is a contradiction here. You should be able to see it. Explain the behavior that caused them to receive CP so they understand that behavior is unacceptable even if they aren't able to understand the complex reason WHY that behavior is wrong. Sorry I should have made it more clear. Don't post when tired.
Coreforcruxes Posted November 18, 2013 Author Posted November 18, 2013 I spoke with the father last night, we have always had a good relationship and enjoyed each others company. He was pretty receptive to the conversation. For hours we respectfully went over both sides of the case. It was not concluded with a change in position from either party, and he agreed to have the conversation any time. I really appreciate all the participation so far. I should have mentioned this in the OP, I would like it if this thread were kept as universal as possible so that it could be of use to most people. So far it seems like it has been great in that regard. I know I will have to fill in the gaps in my unique situation and will start another thread for that if I feel like I cannot make the difference. Does anyone have a rebuttal to the cases where countries ban spanking and crime goes up? the argument that I make is that the absence of spanking is not necessarily the presence of good parenting. Especially if the state (or the tendrils of it within ones personal community) is your primary source of moral knowledge and examples. so far it seems like empirical data is where the case is the weakest...(I wonder how much it would cost to pay a researcher to gather all the studies done on the subject?) so far this seems like a promising resource: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/search?fulltext=spanking&submit=yes&x=0&y=0 I can see a lot of what is skewing the argument in "intellectual" circles is whether or how to get the law involved... not objectively why or how. And the state is automatically assumed as the go to "solution".
BigSecksi Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Does anyone have a rebuttal to the cases where countries ban spanking and crime goes up? the argument that I make is that the absence of spanking is not necessarily the presence of good parenting. Especially if the state (or the tendrils of it within ones personal community) is your primary source of moral knowledge and examples. so far it seems like empirical data is where the case is the weakest... No removing spanking doesn't cause good parenting but you would have to assume on a country-wide level parenting didn't suddenly get worse just because spanking was outlawed. I have the full pdf of the article if you would like it. Empirical data is always hard to come by when social "sciences" are involved because it is really pseudoscience. You cant come up with hard numbers on things as complex as human development. so far this seems like a promising resource: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/search?fulltext=spanking&submit=yes&x=0&y=0 The problem I have with most of those paper is the majority of them that deal with the affects of spanking reference the same study from 1998-2005. However, each paper cherry picks statistics from that study that correlate with the point they are trying to make (spanking is bad). You see over and over they mention mothers spanking 3 year olds (one of them even carries that title) and fathers with high-frequency spankings. That is because those are the only two outlying data points from that study that show a correlation between spanking and aggressiveness. When you look at all the data its becomes much much more muddled. In fact almost across the board the use of CP show almost no correlation with aggressiveness per the study they used to write their papers. This is just another case of cherry picking data to make it reinforce the point they set out to make before they looked at the data.
Coreforcruxes Posted November 22, 2013 Author Posted November 22, 2013 Here is one argument for you BigSecksi, Children are learning more in the beginning stages of life than they will ever learn in terms of quantity per unit of time, their central nervous system is alight with taking in the objective world without any capacity for them to (using words) assign false values to what they experience. They are perfect little scientists recording only objective facts and interacting with the world based on those facts. children are operating on an emotional level few adults can reach (and possibly none at all). Everything they experience is dealt with and processed in real time, good or bad it is truly lived. when you intentionally induce pain to condition a value into a child, they rightly assign that there primary caregiver and source of continued existence is a threat. They realize their environment is dangerous and instead of spending their time taking in the world and developing, they spend their time trying to navigate around this threat. The more often that is the method of interaction, the more time spent navigating the threat. In general the desired outcome I believe we can both agree on is a person that is responsible and can be reasoned with. When you intentionally induce pain in order to condition a value into a child you damage the mechanism they would use to reach the desired outcome. If you can get through a couple years (2 to 3) without hitting your child then they are likely to be able to be talked to and reasoned with, if enough time has been spent with the child in a safe environment where at least one parent has been very interested in the child and taught them. spanking can only harm, that is what it is intended to do. Often in light of a perceived worse outcome of course, but it is harm none the less.
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