Should we stay together for the kids?

[cicero]

Should we stay together for the kids after catching cheating spouse? Is a second chance a viable option even if she realizes her mistake and is willing to do therapy?

[Wesley]

I do not think there is a way I could answer this for you as I do not know exactly what you are feeling. I highly recommend couples therapy for both of you (assuming you are talking about you) in which you can both express all of your emotions, come to a solution if possible, and if not to negotiate and arrange things in the best way possible for the kids.

 

Again, if this is you, I am so sorry that you have to go through this.

[PoopMeat]

That depends on you if you want to stay together or breakup. I cannot nor anyone can say if you should stay in your marriage or leave. However I'll throw up my thoughts on this.

 

I never get why two people agree to get married and essentially be exclusive towards each other if one or the other or both decide to cheat. It's kind of pointless in getting married then. Maybe when you can think rationally and develop some type of questions for her as well as she develop questions for you and at some point make time to ask each other questions which such question may possibly be if she even wants to be married, what she thinks of marriage, Does she think seeing other people while married is a good definition or standard of what a marriage should be.

 

I myself an not married or have kids, nor am I a therapist though I have seen friends and had to be  a Dr. Phil many of times when these types of occurrence came up. However if you are considering getting a divorce or even if your not I think it would be a good idea (I could be wrong) to explain to your kids the problem you have with their mother or you and her sit down and tell the kids what happen explaining to them what a  marriage is and in a nicest way possible explain how mommy was seeing somebody else and doing things that only marriage couples should do therefore was violating their marriage.

 

Try to articulate your anger as clear and concise as possible verbally to your kids or wife with little to no anger as possible as to why you are upset. For the kids may be try to suggest to your kids a scenario where what if you and your bestfriends had a agreement and your one best friend in the world violated that agreement. Would you trust them the same way as you once did? Would you question if you still wanted to be best friends with them? Ask this on your wife too. I just don't feel hiding things from your kids is a good approach, kids are a lot smarter than people give them credit for. Even if the kids are not of age to really understand at somepoint they need to understand what happened.

 

I understand people change overtime and your wife is allowed to change. If she changes she's allowed to and she's allowed to opt-out of marriage as well which is fine. I mean in all reality would you want to be stuck with somebody who doesn't even like you or wants to uphold a real marriage. I suspect she's not going to give you a honest answer if you pose any questions to her and you will have to accept that fact however you will have to think long and hard if this is the sort of thing you want to continue with. Questions you may need to ask yourself is if your willing to accept the fact that your married to a person who could possibly in the future violate your marriage again? If she cheats again will you accept this as your standard of marriage? Are you only staying in until your youngest turns 18 then you will get a divorce?

 

If your willing to accept the possibility that your wife may cheat again and are willing to keep the marriage anyways then your choice to stay with her may be easier if not then you will have a very hard choice ahead. If you are not willing to accept that she could cheat but are wanting to keep the marriage together it may possibly but it may be a constant mind battle to questions if she's cheating or not. In general it may be a mind battle if she's telling the truth or lying. You've gotta ask yourself if it's worth the mind battle for maybe the rest of your life.

 

I think the best course of action is to always try to articulate your anger to get others to understand why you are upset. Although Stefan may disagree I do not think therapy is the best course of action and in my opinion should be avoided. You go to therapy and are constantly reminded and rehashing of problems in the past over and over and over again. Certainly their is some grain of truth to things affecting peoples actions that happened within their childhood however I believe that people will believe in these things merely by believing that this beleif manifests into reality within their personality and then a problem that didn't really exist before exists [1]. I think people just need to be able to articulate their problems better so others can understand and just simple communication (not that, that will help the situation). I think the best therapists are family and friends so I don't really get why one needs to go to a therapists in the first place when there are more approachable and free solutions their for a person, you just have to utilize youe network, even going online and telling strangers your problems helps as well.

 

Refernces:

 

Kelly McGonigal: How to make stress your friend [1]

youtube description: Stress. It makes your heart pound, your breathing quicken and your forehead sweat. But while stress has been made into a public health enemy, new research suggests that stress may only be bad for you if you believe that to be the case. Psychologist Kelly McGonigal urges us to see stress as a positive, and introduces us to an unsung mechanism for stress reduction: reaching out to others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcGyVTAoXEU

[CrazyCanuck]

Should we stay together for the kids after catching cheating spouse? Is a second chance a viable option even if she realizes her mistake and is willing to do therapy?I

 

Do you take your marriage vows seriously?  Unless she is causing you physical or financial pain I suggest you should at least attempt to work it out.

[wdiaz03]

Should we stay together for the kids after catching cheating spouse? Is a second chance a viable option even if she realizes her mistake and is willing to do therapy?

 

There's a Podcast on the Bronce section called "Truth about divorce" along those lines, that might offer some insight in case you have not heard it.

 

How old are the kids? if you don't mind sharing.

[Guest Exceptionalist]

Do you take your marriage vows seriously?  Unless she is causing you physical or financial pain I suggest you should at least attempt to work it out.

 

The question is if she takes her vows seriously. Maybe she feels unfullfilled, a typical situation these days. Try to find out the cause for her actions and work it out if you see a chance. If the children are old enough, it is much easier to dump her, but it is important that the kiddies know anything about the reason.

[CrazyCanuck]

The question is if she takes her vows seriously. Maybe she feels unfullfilled, a typical situation these days. Try to find out the cause for her actions and work it out if you see a chance. If the children are old enough, it is much easier to dump her, but it is important that the kiddies know anything about the reason.

He's asking us.  Don't they say for better and worse? What does that mean?

[kcq]

whatever guys. whatever.

[Kevin Beal]

This is the podcast mentioned above:

 

2320 – If Your Heart Was Broken, This Was How: The Philosophy of Divorce

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_2320_the_philosophy_of_divorce.mp3

 

I would say this is required listening if you are contemplating divorce.

 

I'm terribly sorry about the cheating. That's a horrible betrayal

[Guest Exceptionalist]

He's asking us.  Don't they say for better and worse? What does that mean?

 

Certainly not at all costs. If these condition was absolute it would incorporate anything including physical abuse. A lot of bikering is nothing compared to a fundamental betrayal. No sane person would sign an eternal contract without termination clause. 

[cicero]

Thank you all for the concerned responses. Its strange how, this is the only place where I feel safe to share this.

From my current point of view what I am about to share is a total mess, one bad decision after another, but this is what actually happened and there is nothing I can do to change it.

 

Yes, this is about me and my family. We have 2 kids, boy 9 and girl 6. We've been married for 10 years now, and I am 38 and she is 37.

 First time we’ve met was before I went to college and right after my military service. That I had to do since it was mandatory at that time, to serve 18months. She was in the national sport aerobics team and due to some circumstances (which I wont mention here) I had to join the same team. I’ve been training sports acrobatics since I was 7, so joining aerobics team was a downgrade. Anyway…

She had a rich boyfriend at that time, his father was some businessman worth millions.

 

First 1-2 years nothing happened between us, but then somehow I ended up in her bed. If I can describe my personal life at that time with one word, it would be promiscuous. I never had any steady relationships, if I don’t count my high school love. I had a lot of sex, sometimes 2-3 different girls in 1 day. We had orgies with friends etc.. So having her as 1 more booty call was just fine.

 

So we started having an affair. Soon after we started, she confessed to me that before she started the affair with me, she had an affair with another guy in the team. And all this, while having the rich boyfriend.

After a while she told me that she loves me and she cant live without me. But at the same time she can’t leave the rich guy because his goons will find us and make our lives hell.

Couple of years past and I started to feel really close to her. She convicted me that she loves me but she cant leave the rich guy. I started feeling bad and jealous  every time she is with him.

 I was out of college trying different jobs since the unemployment was high and I couldn’t find decent job. Our country was famous for having the most taxi drivers and bar tenders with masters degrees.

She was still in the aerobics team. Soon after they came back from some competition one of my best friends , who was also in the team told me that he had sex with her. I just want to mention that our affair was secret and nobody  knew  about it. She told him after 3 days having sex, that she has an affair with me and she loves me, and that she feels bad for doing it with him. Again all this was while dating the rich guy.

 

After my friend told me that, I felt horrible. I felt like she was my girlfriend cheating with my best friend.

 After finding this out I told her that I cant see her anymore. And maybe few months later immigrated  to USA. That was 1 month after 9/11 2001.

 Initially I stayed in a friend house, and started working as a gymnastics coach. She started calling every day telling me that she cant live without me, and she will leave the rich boyfriend and come to me in US. I didn’t believe anything she was saying but a month after, she told me that she had left her boyfriend and moved back to her parents house.

 I’ll save the details but 1 year later she came to US. Leaving money, and good carrier opportunity in the department of sport. It was well paid government job with a lots of growth options.

 So I was thinking.. she really loves me if she did all that, just to come here to be with me.

I was happy when she came, maybe after living for 1 year by myself, renting 1 room in a huge Mexican family house, her arrival was like a bliss.

We moved to apartment together. Few times she mentioned how, someday she wants to receive unexpected presents from me , and how she still wears the rich boyfriend clothes, and it will be nice to get  different clothes. This left bad feeling, in me. It was not important that she is with me, and we don't have to hide anymore, but the clothes and the presents. And now, that she has me, she wants to have the rich guy stuff too. When tried to talk about stuff like that our conversations usually didn’t ended on the positive side.

At the same time she, really wanted to have kids, the main reason for her was that she is almost 30 and her time is running up. I’ve tried to explain to her that we are not ready in any way to have kids. Still paying huge sums of money to immigration lawyers, for our green cards. But 1 year later I’ve opened my own business. I was optimistic, and I thought that having a child will be good for our relationship.

 Needless to say that was not the case, even after our second child 3 years later, our relationship didn’t improve. I couldn’t talk to her about things that are important to me. The conversations we had was about trivial stuff and other people. With the time I’ve stopped trying to share what was really going on in my mind.

 

I’ll fast forward  to 1 year ago, when I found FDR. I can’t even express the joy I felt. That was the thing that connected all the dots right away. I’ve stopped any hierarchical behavior toward my kids, I’ve apologized to my son, to whom I did wrong. I was able to convince my wife doing the same to some degree(sometimes she is still using authoritarian tone of voice). And  I've started to examine my own behavior.  
 I’ve listened to all of Stefan’s books, hundreds of podcasts and other books that he recommended.

But I wasn’t able to convince my wife to do the same, it was constant struggle to get her to listen to some podcast that I thought was important. I’ve downloaded RTR on her Ipad, Iphone,Ipod so she can listen to it whenever she can. But she never did. Every time  I tried to give her example from FDR regarding relationships she was defensive. Even saying that, that I’ve joined some cult about Stefan. She felt that I am attacking her.

When I first listened podcast #721 about blame throwers, I immediately knew that she needs to hear it too.

 

I’ll post 2 conversations between us, that I actually have a record of, trough facebook and instant messages.    

 

5/17, 2:03am

--Me:

I am writing this, attempting to explain to you my point of view of what happened couple of days ago. I know if you read this instead of listening to me you have better chance to think it over before your emotions take over. I rightfully got irritated from your phone conversation. If you where talking with let say health insurance or some of your clients to change classes or some of your colleagues from school it's fine. Another words if you have no choice and you must take the phone call I would totally understand. But you were talking with your girl friend, known for having hard time to stop talking. And making some future plans about things that most likely will never happen, while your husband and your child were sitting hungry unable to order or choose to go to different place. Yes I got angry because of your selfishness and lack of empathy. Talking with your so called friend trying to look good in her eyes and ignoring your family. When I asked you if the conversation was important your response was "It was important to me" . This again shows your selfishness. Again instead of answering my question you start talking about yourself and what is important to you at the same time insulting me. *All you had to do after this phone conversation is to say sorry. But to do that you need to be able to see that you mistreated the people you claim to love. And for that you need Empathy. To admit your own mistakes and apologize requires a lot more bravery and character strength than screaming and insulting.

And what you did next was simply unbelievable . You started to bad mouthing me to Roumen, opening the car door while driving on the freeway, screaming in front of him and frightening him with your irrational behavior. And asking Roumen if mami is happy with daddy shows again your selfishness ( your concern about YOUR happiness ) and also shows that you are totally unaware what damage you are causing to Roumen and complete lack of self control. I can go on and on with this but I think you are getting the picture.

Your inability to face the actual problem makes you angry and the path you always take is to start insulting me, and act like you are victim. That is the reason why is impossible to talk to you. That is why we cant find the true causes of the problems with reasoning and good arguments. And posting your comment on facebook was simply avoiding the problem( that I cant talk to you) and seeking public pity and victimizing yourself. Seeking the approval of other people so you can feel better it's exactly what an insecure person will do. A  strong and confident person does not need the approval of others.

After all this, do you know what I've realized? Nothing you say to me can hurt me more than seeing you hurting the kids. Am ready to do anything for this kids and if you keep hurting them the way you do everything will end badly for everyone. I know you love them too and you want to be in your best light with them, that's one reason why I am writing this, hoping that you'll understand that you need to look at yourself first before you blame anyone for the problems. I am working on this myself and I can see the results and it makes me feel encouraged. There is no time for either of us to have a new families and try again. That is why  we need to work on improving our personal understanding, communication, and mutual goals. Because we don't want to have traumatized, crushed  children.

Read this couple of times if you have to, give it some thought and then tell me what do you think.

·         May 17

·         --WIFE:

·         I am admitting my bad behavior in the car and I felt terrible afterwards. I did apologize to Roumen and I know it takes more than saying Sorry. The way  you wrote the letter sounds terrible about me. I will take it again because of the kids. I am not going to look for any excuses about the phone conversation it just won’t matter. My mistake is that I am expecting the impossible from you towards me, which is respect and passion. You said you are trying and working on something …well I guess you need to work harder not to put me in this situation again.

5/17, 9:59am

--ME:

How did I put you in this situation ??

5/17, 10:05am

--Wife:

By not respecting my phone call. Just think about if you did not react like that that would never happened

5/17, 11:53am

--Me:

It's you, taking the phone call that irritated me. The problem is not that i reacted, the problem is what caused my reaction. Imagine that you told her to hold for 1 min or telling her that you ll call her back later. What would my reaction be?

5/17, 12:11pm

--Wife:

Like I said I expect from you the impossible . I learned my lesson again . I just needed to consider that you do not wait for me. It is my fault again . I just have to practice and not be a human being. aroundyouyou and be treated like one.

 

5/17, 12:38pm

--ME:

Just answer the previous question.

5/17, 12:49pm

--Wife:

Yes you are right . Whatever you say .

I am not A free woman with you

5/17, 1:01pm

--Me

It's not about who is right, me, you or the neighbor ... It’s what is right.

5/17, 1:08pm

--Wife

I am just expressing myself this what I feel . That should not happened on first place , I do not have anything to say

5/17, 2:50pm

--Me:

Ok let say that I was wrong to react based on my irritation and instead I've waited patiently to finish your conversation. And after that, I just tell you that I felt really irritated from you having this conversation while we were waiting for you. Do you think you would've apologized, or the conversation still go in the same original direction?

5/17, 2:53pm

--Wife:

Yes this is what I was trying to say after all . For me you handled it badly . And yes I would say sorry for making you wait

5/17, 4:30pm

--Me:

In this case I apologize, and I hope you'll remember this next time before you start screaming and insulting and if you just asked the right question nothing would've had happened

 

 

Next one is from text messages. It starts from the bottom up.

 

 

-ME -10-03-2013 12:02,Send,I just want you to stop blaming me for whatever you do. And take responsibility for your actions.                               

-Wife-10-03-2013 11:26,Received,Oh Is that right who said so ... YOU. What is your attention now to make me feel good after you are telling me that or maybe you what a great relation ship                     

-ME -10-03-2013 10:53,Send,The only time someone can make you do something is if they hold gun to your head or keep your children hostage . The rest of the time all you do is your own choice.                           

,10-03-2013 10:39,Received,And who made me do that?              

-ME -10-03-2013 10:19,Send,Can you talk to someone who is getting angry call you names and throw stuff ?                       

,10-03-2013 10:17,Received,And how are trying to get into your  goal by having pushy talk and abusing me all the time and you would end the conversation by saying Oh I can't talk with you                           

-ME -10-03-2013 09:43,Send,My goal is not normal relationship, but great one. I am not talking about love either . Love comes after the relationship. And pretending that we have relationship is not what I want.        

,10-03-2013 09:37,Received,Willing to do something about relation ship. How can I do that with most negative unlovable person in whole world. We still can have a normal relation ship if you do not ask to love each other                         

-ME -10-03-2013 09:19,Send,The kids can still have their dad half of the time. If you are not willing to do something about our relationship I won't stay                       

10-03-2013 09:15,Received,About what you think. I just think that everyone will feel better in bigger place. Divorcing you is not an option unfortunately kids need their dad                              

-ME -10-03-2013 09:00,Send,Care less about what?                         

-Wife-10-03-2013 08:48,Received,Care less about this BTW                         

 -Wife-10-03-2013 08:47,Received,Well you better adjust                             

-ME-10-03-2013 08:37,Send,Few days ago you want divorce, now you are talking about getting a house.With this inconsistency I can't have any rational plans.

 

 

So this summer we went back to our country on vacation. Since she is a PE teacher her vacation was 2 months.  I gave my business to a friend of mine who I thought I can trust, while I was gone. My plan was to stay there for 30 days. After 30 days I came back to US and the wife and the kids had 30 more days of vacation.

After their return everything was “normal”. I kept trying to make  her listen to the stuff that I thought was important, because obviously when I was saying it, the effect was the opposite of what I wanted. And hearing this from a 3^rd party wont provoke any defense reaction toward me.

A week ago I was able to convince her to listen podcast #721 with me.  And her reaction was somewhat good.

The problem is that a little before that we had a “conversation” again. With the typical ending , how I was the reason she is unhappy and she told me that, quote: “Not to be surprised if I start looking for different options”.

This was the reason that made me investigate.

I’ve restored all the deleted text messages and conversations from her phone. And what I found was text messages between her and a man. All the messaging started 1 day after I left my country.

It’s interesting how reading 1 line of text can make your heart beat explode and the world start spinning around you.

Him: “I love you and I miss you”

She: “Don’t work too hard I’ll need your energy”.

There is more, but you get the picture.

 

 I haven’t told her  about this yet. It’s been 3 days of hell.

 

Today something crossed my mind that gave me some calm. Her childhood was a nightmare. She was bullied as kid, her father was an alcoholic, she witnessed him beating her mom. Knocking her teeth  out kind of beating, and calling neighbors to resuscitate her. And she was abused from her older sister.

 

I know this sounds like story from hell, and I've heard Stefan saying many times that you cant help some people after while.

 But imagine if your child turns into a zombie by some virus. Are you going to blame your child for eating brain? Would you do everything possible to cure  him before you pull the trigger? I feel that  I should do everything I can to save her from this.

If I don’t ,what would I gain? How much is my life worth compared to my kids life?

 

Thank you all for reading all this. And I apologize for the 3^rd world English.

[CrazyCanuck]

If you want to marriage  to work you need to stop blaming her.  You're just as responsible, you're certainly going at the wrong way.  Getting upset because she wouldn't talk to you right away surely doesn't help things.  

 

 

You wrote:

It's you, taking the phone call that irritated me. The problem is not that i reacted, the problem is what caused my reaction. Imagine that you told her to hold for 1 min or telling her that you ll call her back later. What would my reaction be?It's you, taking the phone call that irritated me. The problem is not that i reacted, the problem is what caused my reaction. Imagine that you told her to hold for 1 min or telling her that you ll call her back later. What would my reaction be?

 

 

You are responsible for your emotions and behaviour not her.  If you can't take responsibility for your own actions/emotions and be respectful how can you expect her to be.  I am saying not because she did the right thing.  However you made it worse.  If there's a problem you should try asking for her help.  Asking  that you need help resolving the problem.  Then you both discuss solutions.  If you can not come to an agreement you should try her way for 30 days.  However you should ask her if doesn't work with no improvement to try it your way.

Also you're not giving what she needs or wants.  It's not about buying her gifts but how it makes her feel.  Sounds to me she's still suffering a lot from her childhood. The only reason she was seeing another man is because you pushed her away so she went somewhere to get what she needed.  You can not solve problems by find her faults, attacking for her errors she made.  Because you made errors yourself how would you treat yourself?

 

I hate to say that but Stefan's podcast doesn't mean things will work.  Expecting others to take their own responsibility when you can't do yourself is puzzling. No matter how wrong she is you should able to do the same?

[PoopMeat]

Read through everything have to say you married into a situation thinking it would resolve your problems was a bad idea. Then you finding out things do not work out after having two kids isn't that surprising. I think you knew the situation you were getting yourself into, that in fact you know she had the ability or possibility to cheat while in a relationship with others as well as she's interested in love but also in money as well. I'm not so shock as to why she would cheat during marriage my question is why would you think she is marriage quality when her actions are pretty much antimarriage?

 

To me she is not marriage quality, so in my opinion I'm not sure why you would salvage that unless it's for the kids and even then I'd have a tough time rationalizing that. You will have to think long and hard before you decide on anything

 

To me this is a woman that has a lot of problems emotionally and at some extent can be cruel to people she says she loves. Certainly one could give her a pass because we know so much about her horrible childhood or whatever but to me I don't give passes. That's not an excuse as to how she is acting now, and you shouldn't accept this type of attitude or actions she is doing. She wasn't marriage quality to start with and I'm certainly not surprised she still isn't in my opinion. Marriage is something your lover hasn't earned the right to have with you by her actions alone.

 

Certainty you didn't do everything right but the majority of the  blame does not go towards you though putting blame on something doesn't solve anything. Figure out a next course of action. I almost feel like you do not really know her, and that you need to extract yourself from being married to her and just be her friend. It's hard when kids and  marriage title is involved as there can certainly be a lot of emotions involved but right now she hasn't earned that right to be in a marriage with you, and thinking that getting married with a person like that would solve all the problems has created even more problems. Right now my thoughts are you need to reevaluate the situation, maybe your not in a marriage maybe she can be your friend for now and not even a lover.

 

You are to close to the situations and I don't think this qualifies as a marriage to start with. Just be her friend, be someone she can go too and tell you her problems, redefine your situation with her because that's important when kids are involved. Maybe you or both come to a conclusion that you married for the wrong reasons, maybe you and her bonds strengthen, maybe you find a different relationship altogether (possibly become good friends and can avoid going to court/still see your kids). I feel like your really to close to the situation when you identity yourself as being married to her when in my opinion she hasn't earned the right and at the actions she has done while being in a so called marriage. If things go in a direction where marriage is no longer a reality try to solve problems without getting the lawyers invovled.

 

I think whatever your call is you explain the situation with the kids and don't try to sugar coat anything but tell them the whole situation. Maybe even explain your reasoning for getting married and the other things you mentioned in the above post to your kids as well. I don't believe you should hide things from your kids.

 

To finish this off it was her choice to move to the U.S. for you. Don't feel that it was just for you. I find it hard to trust someone who had cheated in a relationship with your best friend and you to be someone who is trusty worthy or honest but rather she does things on impulse as to keep herself happy. At that to consider her marriage quality after she essentially was cheating on the person she was in a relationship with then technically cheat on her secret lover with another lover (you) kind of shows bad judgment on your part to suggest she's marriage quality. She needs to deal with her issues in a different way without using others so she can be happy. If in the pursuit of her happiness she doesn't consider your happiness then she really is just using you to satisfy her own needs and you should recognize this and act accordingly. You and her should want to make each other happy not be with her to make you happy and vice versa. You have to protect your own interests when she could care less about your interests. If you contiure down the path you are going it will be physiologically straining. She wasn't marriage quality and if you decided to separate you may not realize or believe me now but there are more fish in the sea more qualified for the marriage title. You just have to have better judgment for a particular person who actually can handle the marriage title.

[cicero]

Boy do I feel stupid! Thank you all for your thoughts

There was some misunderstanding   I need to work more on my trust issues.

[PoopMeat]

Thank you all for your thoughts

There was some misunderstanding   I need to work more on my trust issues.

 

Well if it wasn't a problem you wouldn't be on here seeking help. There are probably issues there.