Pickup artist culture is actually proof of the objectification of men

[Omega 3 snake oil]

What is anti-intellectual about a sexual relationship? That would imply that any sexual intercourse was anti-intellectual. It is just non-intellectual in the that matter, that it only focuses on primal instincts.

 

It's not the sex, it's the behavior leading up to the sex that often is anti intellectual. I say this because the conversation tends to be shallow and vacuous, and from what I know about PUA they teach men to avoid all manner of intellectualism when dealing with a woman, because the rational part of her brain apparently does not process sex very well. If you want to lose her, attempt intelligent conversation.

[Holo Cene]

It's not the sex, it's the behavior leading up to the sex that often is anti intellectual. I say this because the conversation tends to be shallow and vacuous, and from what I know about PUA they teach men to avoid all manner of intellectualism when dealing with a woman, because the rational part of her brain apparently does not process sex very well. If you want to lose her, attempt intelligent conversation.

 

That really isn't true at all. It is completely up to you. As long as you do or say something with the right attitude and mindset, what you say is irrelevant. Where exactly are you hoping to just run into these intelligent girls? You have to go out there and find them. You start by talking to women you find appealing and then discovering if they have what you are looking for be it intellectualism, silly humor, bright happy personality etc etc. There is so much put into how PUA is one thing or another. At the end of the day it is just men approaching women and having conversations. Where the interactions go is between the two people involved. If you despise shallowness in women then when you detect it you eject. 

[steve_]

I disagree and think that you would be objectifying her.

 

But as I said in my post: to objectify someone you need to not see them as a person with the same rights as yourself. If I admire someone only for their tits, or fishing advice, it doesn't mean I'm willing to violate those rights by treating them as if I thought they deserved the rights of an inanimate object.

[Omega 3 snake oil]

That really isn't true at all. It is completely up to you. As long as you do or say something with the right attitude and mindset, what you say is irrelevant.

Hmm... partially true. I wouldn't say you can say *anything* to a woman--as long as you have the right attitude--and you can create attraction. Do you suppose you can chat up a girl by discussing the merits of UPB and she'll still be interested? Philosophy, politics, science? I think not. The less intellectual the content, the greater the odds of success (according to my own experience and much of what I've heard from PUAs).

 

Where exactly are you hoping to just run into these intelligent girls? You have to go out there and find them. You start by talking to women you find appealing and then discovering if they have what you are looking for be it intellectualism, silly humor, bright happy personality etc etc.

This is true. I meet girls here and there, some of whom turn out to be quite intelligent, interesting, etc. But I don't meet them by running game/whatever PUA techniques are called. I just kind of let nature take its course--which may be easy for me to say since I'm told I'm quite handsome Also, Tinder is great.

 

At the end of the day it is just men approaching women and having conversations. Where the interactions go is between the two people involved.

I think this is a rather rosy, rationalized take on the whole thing. You could discuss prostitution by saying "at the end of the day it's just a business transaction." Which of course is true, but fails to take into account factors such as childhood abuse, broken families, etc. that create the conditions in which girls often wind up selling their bodies. 

 

I'd like to reiterate that this isn't an "I can't get laid and it's society's fault" thread, though some seem to take it that way.  It's more of a "our divorce rate is 60%, women are even more miserable than men, no one seems to be in happy, loving relationships, and there is no place for children to be born and grow healthily" thread.

[Holo Cene]

Hmm... partially true. I wouldn't say you can say *anything* to a woman--as long as you have the right attitude--and you can create attraction. Do you suppose you can chat up a girl by discussing the merits of UPB and she'll still be interested? Philosophy, politics, science? I think not. The less intellectual the content, the greater the odds of success (according to my own experience and much of what I've heard from PUAs).

 

 

This completely discounts social dynamics in its entirety. You have to introduce yourself. You have to prove to the person of your benevolence. You have to indicate some sort of social value to the person. You have to take into account who the person you are talking to, you can talk about UPB and philosophy but most people will run from the truth, not just women. Intellectual content isn't some end all be all of judgment of a persons worth. Far from it.

 

 

This is true. I meet girls here and there, some of whom turn out to be quite intelligent, interesting, etc. But I don't meet them by running game/whatever PUA techniques are called. I just kind of let nature take its course--which may be easy for me to say since I'm told I'm quite handsome Also, Tinder is great.

 

 Nature take its course? You are acting in a fashion based on learned techniques and attitudes adjusted from experience. What you claim is natural is just unconscious, unspoken PUA. Looks get you attention. It is how you speak and carry yourself that women will react to. This is the heart of PUA. It takes men and helps them to achieve this learning process, especially men who have problems doing so.

 

 

I think this is a rather rosy, rationalized take on the whole thing. You could discuss prostitution by saying "at the end of the day it's just a business transaction." Which of course is true, but fails to take into account factors such as childhood abuse, broken families, etc. that create the conditions in which girls often wind up selling their bodies. 

 

I'd like to reiterate that this isn't an "I can't get laid and it's society's fault" thread, though some seem to take it that way.  It's more of a "our divorce rate is 60%, women are even more miserable than men, no one seems to be in happy, loving relationships, and there is no place for children to be born and grow healthily" thread.

 

This is a complete strawman. You conflate PUA with prostitution as if it was even remotely close, that is just dishonest and rather appalling.

[King David]

If PUA at the end of the day is simply men having conversations with women then why would you consider that PUA at all?  I would classify this as a lets get together to cheer on some hustling club.  Not unlike what I call my drinking buddies. 

 

What I quantify as a good artist is someone who can take a crappy idea and produce some respectable artwork as well as take a good idea and make something amazing.  If you are approaching this behaviour as an art form then it has more to do with your approach and the results than with the character of the women you have targeted.  Since it is their responses that you will elicit, your approach will be tailored to their desire's and to be honest, the generic formula that can work on a large number of women betrays a decidedly un-intellectual nature.

 

KD

[Holo Cene]

If PUA at the end of the day is simply men having conversations with women then why would you consider that PUA at all?  I would classify this as a lets get together to cheer on some hustling club.  Not unlike what I call my drinking buddies. 

 

What I quantify as a good artist is someone who can take a crappy idea and produce some respectable artwork as well as take a good idea and make something amazing.  If you are approaching this behaviour as an art form then it has more to do with your approach and the results than with the character of the women you have targeted.  Since it is their responses that you will elicit, your approach will be tailored to their desire's and to be honest, the generic formula that can work on a large number of women betrays a decidedly un-intellectual nature.

 

KD

 

I think there is an inherent bias and a blindness in your analysis. The generic formula is not separate from any experience with a skill set and attracting women is most definitely a skill set. The reason we are talking about "PUA" specifically because it is taught and people have objections to this specific skill set being taught. They believe it is inherently immoral and manipulative, not understanding that EVERYONE who interacts successfully with women is doing just that, using learned behaviors and tactics in order to impress women. All you have to do is examine your own process in interacting with women to see the truth.

[King David]

It is not that I think your learned skills are inherently immoral, it is that I think that pandering to women at every turn objectifies you.  Your personality and interests are a blank canvas that will take on any shade that the generic female would want you to.  This of course is what enables women to control the dating narrative where it all occurs on their terms.  For most people that have a healthy sense of identity this would never be a problem because they can separate their public persona with their private, but I'm afraid for many men who do not have a strong identity that these are one in the same.  These are the "white knights" and "manginas" that MGTOW speaks of.  They have the same inherent mental vacuum for male identity as the blue pill women.  I could argue these DB's are worse to deal with than just about anyone, they are solipsists with testosterone.  These guys are bad enough in their own right but if they learn PUA, well then it pulls the trigger on your harem based mating practices.  If all a man can ever be measured by is the notches in his bedpost then all his other virtues or failings can be disregarded. 

 

If women were to make a critical examination of men's virtue on a more universal scheme, at least it would keep men honest.  The success of lame PUA tactics displays that a lot of women are susceptible to perceived value rather than real integrity and character.  They are so gullible it is painful in some cases, which is why in the old days the reputation that followed you around was important because women could at least verify your credibility and respond accordingly.  Nowadays just about any DB can land a fine dame and nobody would be the wiser.

 

KD

[PatrickC]

Yes KD raises some excellent points I think. It's still unclear to me what the overall benefits are to PUA, other than a way to initiate attraction in some women. I'm slightly confused by what you consider PUA adds to say your 'inner life' Holo, as you put it in an earlier post.

 

I mean gaining enjoyment and pleasure from those we surround ourselves with I take as a given. That seems like a wholly reasoanble way to approach an initial response with anyone for that matter, friend or lover. On the other hand things like reputation, honour and integrity seemingly take a back seat these days, as culturally speaking those qualities matter little for most of the outside world. Men have essentially been robbed of their potential. And the world is fast losing the qualities in men that often shaped the world. Not to mention fatherhood as well.

 

Never let it be said there is such a thing as a 'should'. But as philosophers I think it's incumbent on us to at least attempt to instill values in those we interact with and especially those we are intimate with. If not by words, certainly in our actions.

[Holo Cene]

It is not that I think your learned skills are inherently immoral, it is that I think that pandering to women at every turn objectifies you.  Your personality and interests are a blank canvas that will take on any shade that the generic female would want you to.  This of course is what enables women to control the dating narrative where it all occurs on their terms.  For most people that have a healthy sense of identity this would never be a problem because they can separate their public persona with their private, but I'm afraid for many men who do not have a strong identity that these are one in the same.  These are the "white knights" and "manginas" that MGTOW speaks of.  They have the same inherent mental vacuum for male identity as the red pill women.  I could argue these DB's are worse to deal with than just about anyone, they are solipsists with testosterone.  These guys are bad enough in their own right but if they learn PUA, well then it pulls the trigger on your harem based mating practices.  If all a man can ever be measured by is the notches in his bedpost then all his other virtues or failings can be disregarded. 

 

If women were to make a critical examination of men's virtue on a more universal scheme, at least it would keep men honest.  The success of lame PUA tactics displays that a lot of women are susceptible to perceived value rather than real integrity and character.  They are so gullible it is painful in some cases, which is why in the old days the reputation that followed you around was important because women could at least verify your credibility and respond accordingly.  Nowadays just about any DB can land a fine dame and nobody would be the wiser.

 

KD

 

 

Lets forget PUA for a second. Dating is a marketplace and women will always be the selectors. They have the final say on mate choice. As long as this is the case, men must approach women. Women will not approach men, though there is always the exceptions by and large this is the rule empirically verifiable by being around women. What I am arguing against is this moral outrage at having to approach women. You have to do it, plain and simple. Men who refuse because they think women are shallow and gullible have no idea what they are talking about, because they don't approach women and find out if what they say is true. Go out and find out if what you think is actually reality and not some concocted story you use in order to protect your ego from identifying with the real problem, a lack of courage. If men of integrity don't approach women then we leave it to the d-bags and the assholes and that, is my point

 

. 

Yes KD raises some excellent points I think. It's still unclear to me what the overall benefits are to PUA, other than a way to initiate attraction in some women. I'm slightly confused by what you consider PUA adds to say your 'inner life' Holo, as you put it in an earlier post.

 

I mean gaining enjoyment and pleasure from those we surround ourselves with I take as a given. That seems like a wholly reasoanble way to approach an initial response with anyone for that matter, friend or lover. On the other hand things like reputation, honour and integrity seemingly take a back seat these days, as culturally speaking those qualities matter little for most of the outside world. Men have essentially been robbed of their potential. And the world is fast losing the qualities in men that often shaped the world. Not to mention fatherhood as well.

 

Never let it be said there is such a thing as a 'should'. But as philosophers I think it's incumbent on us to at least attempt to instill values in those we interact with and especially those we are intimate with. If not by words, certainly in our actions.

 

My "inner life" is something I am developing. How PUA relates to that is that I want to find a good woman to share it with. I can only do that if I talk to different women and date them. PUA is just a name for approaching women and talking to them. People share that information gained through experience, sometimes at a price and we learn and grow as a community. It isn't anything more than that. Now how people use it or misuse it is a personal matter based on personal choices and responsibilities. Anything else is just judgments based on very little information. Let's not call it PUA then, lets call it the Anti Hypergamy Objective with the Goal of Freeing Men from the Collective Despair of Moral Indignation. AHOGFMCDMI. AHOG for short.

[PatrickC]

My "inner life" is something I am developing. How PUA relates to that is that I want to find a good woman to share it with. I can only do that if I talk to different women and date them. PUA is just a name for approaching women and talking to them. People share that information gained through experience, sometimes at a price and we learn and grow as a community. It isn't anything more than that. Now how people use it or misuse it is a personal matter based on personal choices and responsibilities. Anything else is just judgments based on very little information. Let's not call it PUA then, lets call it the Anti Hypergamy Objective with the Goal of Freeing Men from the Collective Despair of Moral Indignation. AHOGFMCDM. AHOG for short.

 

Right, thanks for explaining that. I certainly agree that dating women is the only way you are going to meet women of quality. Fortunately for me (and perhaps you) I have not been so visiously treated by women, like some men have.

 

So as a tool to better socially interact with women, I think is probably where PUA (for want of a better expression) has most of its value, which I've always felt was the case after discovering its methodology in recent years. The fact that you use it as a means to widening the opportunities for yourself is fair enough.

 

There is no doubting that there are great points to all these mens movements. At least men are beginning to wake up and take this shit seriously at last. Men are in a dreadful state at the moment, which is often not of their design. So it's great to converse with some likeminds, even with the ocassional harshness for once, compared to all the paltry predictable responses I receive from men in the real world. It's been a pleasure chaps.

[Holo Cene]

Right, thanks for explaining that. I certainly agree that dating women is the only way you are going to meet women of quality. Fortunately for me (and perhaps you) I have not been so visiously treated by women, like some men have.

 

So as a tool to better socially interact with women, I think is probably where PUA (for want of a better expression) has most of its value, which I've always felt was the case after discovering its methodology in recent years. The fact that you use it as a means to widening the opportunities for yourself is fair enough.

 

There is no doubting that there are great points to all these mens movements. At least men are beginning to wake up and take this shit seriously at last. Men are in a dreadful state at the moment, which is often not of their design. So it's great to converse with some likeminds, even with the ocassional harshness for once, compared to all the paltry predictable responses I receive from men in the real world. It's been a pleasure chaps.

 

It isn't really even PUA, its just some people that have tried monetizing a "system" but it is through this market incentive that such ideas reach the mainstream, otherwise the people who know about and have the skills usually keep it to themselves, because otherwise, why would they want to increase the competition? Ultimately, it is just a skill, and if the PUA movement didn't exist any man who wanted good women would have to learn it. Celebrities don't have a monopoly on this skill, its just they have the rare benefit of having women line up around the corner to fuck them . What would you do with this bevy of attractive women? I don't know if the answer is that clear. It's a very interesting topic and definitely worthy of discussion and I mean this is like guy crack, talking about how to attract women. It's like we do it for sports, gambling, working out, business, but when it comes to women, men get a little touchy. The main point being the more men in the game the more men women have to choose from, which means that men will have to up their game, and perhaps things like reputation and virtue might matter again because everything gets elevated with more competition.

[Omega 3 snake oil]

 

Intellectual content isn't some end all be all of judgment of a persons worth. Far from it.

... says the person posting on a philosophy forum.

 

 

This is a complete strawman. You conflate PUA with prostitution as if it was even remotely close, that is just dishonest and rather appalling.

No, I really don't...

 

 What I am arguing against is this moral outrage at having to approach women.

Now THIS is a strawman.  a) what moral outrage? b) at what point in this thread has it been suggested it's wrong or bad to approach women?

[Holo Cene]

... says the person posting on a philosophy forum.

 

 

No, I really don't...

 

Now THIS is a strawman.  a) what moral outrage? b) at what point in this thread has it been suggested it's wrong or bad to approach women?

 

Ok. Is there a point to any of the objections?

[PatrickC]

The main point being the more men in the game the more men women have to choose from, which means that men will have to up their game, and perhaps things like reputation and virtue might matter again because everything gets elevated with more competition.

 

That's an interesting perspective. One of the things I liked about one of the techniques was dealing with the 'shit test'. This is a very useful way of ditching certain ladies that have no intention of taking things further with you. But was also a balanced approach in that it showed it as quite normal for women to test men to some degree. The technique was about learning to what degree was reasonable. I chuckled a bit reading that, as I relived some of my dating disasters in my teens and early twenties. I thought hmmn, I could have done with that useful piece of advice back then, without having to learn it all myself.

[King David]

If virtue and character are not good enough then why should women be taken seriously?If you are actually selecting your mates on their merit then virtue and character are not in the "perhaps" realm.  Women are not settling on PUA's and bad boys because there are no good men willing to approach them, they choose them because they get off on having an alpha doting on them and it makes their friends swoon.  Ok ok, these "good men" can take it up a notch if they want to get laid and they need to approach.  But, what if they see the truth that women make terrible choices in mate selection and really there is little value in being somebody who they are not, to somebody who does not really care about them, just to validate outdated perceptions of masculinity. 

 

Well then, you will have what you have today.  Western populations in a general decline, men not having or wanting children, gender distrust, etc. 

 

You talk like these problems are manageable with a little good spirit, education, and encouragement.  They probably are on the micro level, macro is another story however. 

 

Truth is, in the engineering discipline (which like I said earlier: is the context of our culture) that by the time you diagnose a problem, there is little that can be done to mitigate the damage.  The patriarchy was the only thing capable of keeping women accountable to their decisions.  Now that the patriarchy has been thoroughly dismantled by feminism, we all get to witness the folly of our gender.  I guess they were not far off the mark when they made Homer Simpson.

 

For the record,  I wish somebody had taken the time to explain attraction to me at a younger age, and I appreciate the culture of PUA that brought me into the know.  Obviously there was a gap in my socializing process (again: see dismantling of patriarchy).

 

It's just that I am not fooling myself to think I'm out playing the field for some grand overarching cause of resolving the gender war, restoring virtue and character.  I would call it objectification, and I learnt it from the best.

 

KD

[Holo Cene]

If virtue and character are not good enough then why should women be taken seriously?If you are actually selecting your mates on their merit then virtue and character are not in the "perhaps" realm.  Women are not settling on PUA's and bad boys because there are no good men willing to approach them, they choose them because they get off on having an alpha doting on them and it makes their friends swoon.  Ok ok, these "good men" can take it up a notch if they want to get laid and they need to approach.  But, what if they see the truth that women make terrible choices in mate selection and really there is little value in being somebody who they are not, to somebody who does not really care about them, just to validate outdated perceptions of masculinity. 

 

Well then, you will have what you have today.  Western populations in a general decline, men not having or wanting children, gender distrust, etc. 

 

You talk like these problems are manageable with a little good spirit, education, and encouragement.  They probably are on the micro level, macro is another story however. 

 

Truth is, in the engineering discipline (which like I said earlier: is the context of our culture) that by the time you diagnose a problem, their is little that can be done to mitigate the damage.  The patriarchy was the only thing capable of keeping women accountable to their decisions.  Now that the patriarchy has been thoroughly dismantled by feminism, we all get to witness the folly of our gender.  I guess they were not far off the mark when they made Homer Simpson.

 

For the record,  I wish somebody had taken the time to explain attraction to me at a younger age, and I appreciate the culture of PUA that brought me into the know.  Obviously there was a gap in my socializing process (again: see dismantling of patriarchy).

 

It's just that I am not fooling myself to think I'm out playing the field for some grand overarching cause of resolving the gender war, restoring virtue and character.  I would call it objectification, and I learnt it from the best.

 

KD

 

While you make great points, i'm not naive about the hypergamy/feminism paradigm. I am not claiming that it will solve the problems of male society. What I am advocating is that we do not abandon ship, and then claim all hope is lost. I think it's an emotional reaction born out of rage and frustration. That just worsens the problem, because we are not adapting and will fall by the wayside of life. There is no reason to stop trying to do good, especially in an arena that our biology primes us to partake of. We are always prompted by our biology to go out and try to put sperm to egg. A denial of this is a denial of self, because you are not separate from your sexual drive, one of the most intense and powerful of our humanity.

 

There is a hypocrisy inherent in this arena since it is such an unexamined portion of life, that we have a lot of emotional energy behind. There is a lot of idealization of love and romance, and the observation and awareness of the process would be an enlightening experience. I think PUA does away with the illusions to an extent and forces one to face the reality of modern love, be it horror or beauty.

 

I do understand the counter argument for sure, but it serves no function other than to self pity and to play the martyr. I am definitely no one to argue that people cannot make the decision to say fuck it and fuck women.

 

There is so much to learn about oneself simply by going up to a random woman and speaking to her. You get nervous. Why? You don't know what to say. Why? You feel the oppression of your failures. Why? She is responding poorly to you. Why? She smiles at your joke, and you feel like a million bucks. Why? It is absolutely amazing the things you find lurking behind the veil of your own self perception.

[King David]

"I think PUA does away with the illusions to an extent and forces one to face the reality of modern love, be it horror or beauty."

 

I think it merely shifts the delusion of mysticism from men, onto women. 

 

I don't look at this situation as a loss.  Albeit not ideal, it is far from a negative for myself.  My family will be let down sure, but those are their expectations not mine.  Is it a loss for women, they will find some dupe to take care of them no doubt.  I've only ever met a couple that had any respect for my type of intelligence, and I can say probably only ever one or two whoever understood it.

 

KD

[Omega 3 snake oil]

 

There is so much to learn about oneself simply by going up to a random woman and speaking to her. You get nervous. Why?

Who is this second person "you" are referring to? It takes a lot more than talking to a girl to make me nervous, unless she's wielding a broken beer bottle or positive pregnancy test.

 

 

 You don't know what to say. Why? You feel the oppression of your failures. Why? She is responding poorly to you. Why? She smiles at your joke, and you feel like a million bucks. Why? It is absolutely amazing the things you find lurking behind the veil of your own self perception.

 

This sounds word-for-word like the lecturing of a PUA/aspiring PUA.  Is this "you" yourself?  Again, your argument(s) boil down to "you're all just a bunch of pussies so stop being afraid of girls and start being cool and confident like me". There are a lot of forms of self-perception that are not based on sex or one's relationship to the opposite sex. 

 

I think it's an emotional reaction born out of rage and frustration. That just worsens the problem, because we are not adapting and will fall by the wayside of life.

Yes, of course it's just frustration. It's not like it could have some rational basis, like questioning whether one should adapt to a cultural norm that is ludicrously unsustainable and is as much a symptom of a society gone off the rails as it is a biological imperative.

 

If virtue and character are not good enough then why should women be taken seriously?If you are actually selecting your mates on their merit then virtue and character are not in the "perhaps" realm.  Women are not settling on PUA's and bad boys because there are no good men willing to approach them, they choose them because they get off on having an alpha doting on them and it makes their friends swoon.  Ok ok, these "good men" can take it up a notch if they want to get laid and they need to approach.  But, what if they see the truth that women make terrible choices in mate selection and really there is little value in being somebody who they are not, to somebody who does not really care about them, just to validate outdated perceptions of masculinity. 

 

Well then, you will have what you have today.  Western populations in a general decline, men not having or wanting children, gender distrust, etc. 

For the record,  I wish somebody had taken the time to explain attraction to me at a younger age, and I appreciate the culture of PUA that brought me into the know.  Obviously there was a gap in my socializing process (again: see dismantling of patriarchy).

 

It's just that I am not fooling myself to think I'm out playing the field for some grand overarching cause of resolving the gender war, restoring virtue and character.  I would call it objectification, and I learnt it from the best.

 

KD

I effing love this. Agree 100%.

[Holo Cene]

Who is this second person "you" are referring to? It takes a lot more than talking to a girl to make me nervous, unless she's wielding a broken beer bottle or positive pregnancy test.

 

 

 

So you have no problem talking to women and yet you stereotype all of them as being soul sucking vacuum bags of emptiness. Is it a wonder that you get along so well with them?

 

 

This sounds word-for-word like the lecturing of a PUA/aspiring PUA.  Is this "you" yourself?  Again, your argument(s) boil down to "you're all just a bunch of pussies so stop being afraid of girls and start being cool and confident like me". There are a lot of forms of self-perception that are not based on sex or one's relationship to the opposite sex.

 

Who said that was the only way to identify self perception? 

 

 

Yes, of course it's just frustration. It's not like it could have some rational basis, like questioning whether one should adapt to a cultural norm that is ludicrously unsustainable and is as much a symptom of a society gone off the rails as it is a biological imperative.

 

I assume you are a proponent of MGTOW. Can you elaborate on why it is the best solution?

[Omega 3 snake oil]

So you have no problem talking to women and yet you stereotype all of them as being soul sucking vacuum bags of emptiness. Is it a wonder that you get along so well with them?

Ad hominem nonsense. When did I say such things?  You seem to put words in others' mouths to compensate for your own inability to reason.

 

 

 

I assume you are a proponent of MGTOW. Can you elaborate on why it is the best solution?

More B.S. I've never said anything of the sort.

[Holo Cene]

Ad hominem nonsense. When did I say such things?  You seem to put words in others' mouths to compensate for your own inability to reason.

 

 

More B.S. I've never said anything of the sort.

 

So what point are you making? Are you disagreeing with me just to disagree?

[Omega 3 snake oil]

So what point are you making?

That nearly everything you've said in this thread is unfounded, illogical, or untrue.

[Holo Cene]

That nearly everything you've said in this thread is unfounded, illogical, or untrue.

 

Ok, I hope people will glean whatever they can from my illogical, unfounded, lies.