Barry_diller Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 You can't argue people into Anarchy by comment on places like Youtube. It's a waste of time. This is the comments That was posted forth and back on one of Stef's videos. If you read it you will realize that I made alot of mistakes, escpecially letting people ignore my more difficuilt argument and just go on. It's not a debate if someone ignore half of what you are sayingIt's a long readYOU ARE WARNEDI'm Christopher Sonne in the comments------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Wells15.34 Free Market Capitalism and Government are two sides of the same coin. Free Market capitalism can only exist when there is only one person left on the planet. He can do whatever he wants kill animals, make spares, build a hut, or build a Government or State. Thus, Government is formed by free market capitalism. They cannot exist without each other. Even if he does not build a Government he makes his own rules as he goes about his life (governing himself). Thus, free market capitalism and government are two sides of the same coin. In fact, it is more like the Yin & Yang symbol. On the one hand, free market capitalism cannot exist by itself without a small amount of government law to protect the people. On the other hand, Government cannot exist by itself without some amount of free market capitalism. Thus, they are like the Yin & Yang symbol. When economists and socialists argue about more government or free market capitalism. They are arguing over the amount or proportion that can maximize the allocation of resources :-)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- codergames 16.00 Totally agree with you. That's why building mechanisms of controlling the government is the most important thing we need to do. Up until this point all governments on the planet are not controlled by anything or anyone, they're networked well and focused on controlling the cattle, the rest of us. They fear us and they should. They fear us as they've done many bad things and got away with them, but while those deeds were mostly hidden from the cattle, they're not anymore, stuff leaked out. So they fear us more than ever. While those leaks might have been deliberate, as they did much worst things, only smallest were leaked, it is for the purpose of them identifying weak areas of the system and finding out the most efficient ways of addressing them and reacting faster plus preventing of something like that happening in the future. We have a small windows which might allow us to react more massively and establishing some voluntary organizations that would have ability to control everything governments do. We should be allowed to do so, after all it is people who vote for the governments, thus people should control governments. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Wells 18.24 +codergames Yes you are absolutely correct. We live in a free-market economy that states if you do not make a good product you will be out of business very quick. Government is a product that the majority people want to a certain degree, hence why it has not gone out of business. It is when Big Government forms a coalition with Big Business the system fails. Because according to my Yin & Yang theory too much control destroys free market capitalism. For example, most monopolies that have ever existed are done by the help of Big Government. This destroys people’s ability to start their own business and enter the market, thus destroying free market capitalism. Only when we find the right combination of Government and Free Market Capitalism will society prosper :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 18.44 "Voluntary interaction and having a monopoly on violence are two sides of the same coin. Voluntary interaction can only exist when there is only one person left on the planet. He can do whatever he wants kill animals, make spares, build a hut, or create a monopoly on violence. Thus, an Monopoly on violence is formed by Voluntary interaction. They cannot exist without each" Free market capitalism= Voluntary interaction Government= A group of people having a monopoly on violence You are slamming opposites against each other and calling them mutually dependent of each other.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ codergames 18.54 +Christopher Wells Exactly. If we would be able to control government and break any connection between them and the market, we'd be able to maintain a truly free market. We should be able to arrest government employees or groups that are working with companies. I've noticed how they steal ideas that people have over the Internet, easily destroying the original idea owner and promoting their company instead. This is a serious problem as it's not what a free market is, it's quite the opposite. The evil of it all is that they're doing this while promoting a market as free, which clearly isn't. People voted for these criminals, people placed them in the governments, people should be able to put them down. We need to be able to control, government should be transparent and serve people otherwise voting has no function. They won't give up the power they have so easily so the revolution is necessary, we need to eliminate all of them, physically if they don't want to go peacefully. ·-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 18.57 +codergames don't you feel cognitive dissonance? At one point you feel and know that the government is uncontrollable and that counts for more or less all 200+ that exist in the world. But you don't know and fear what you should do without it It's both good and evil?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lane Lombardia 19.03 Free Market Capitalism is NOTHING like Government. Government is coercion. Your statement logically leads me to believe you have made the common error of confusing Corporatism, or its Mercantilism ancestor, with Capitalism. Capitalism is two or more parties agreeing to mutually beneficial trades. Formation of a government is achieved by one or both of two methods: force or fraud. To say that Free Market Capitalism forms government indicates that you really don't grasp what the terms mean, or you are engaged in a deliberate attempt at deception (such as trolling, for example). · ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Wells 19.15 +Christopher Sonne +Lane Lombardia When a Government is first formed it is done by the voluntary actions of the small amount of people that exist at that time. Why? because everybody perceives they will be better off by paying taxes in exchange for a Government that serves the people for the people. Thus free-market capitalism created Government. If it did not do this the Government would be out of business like any other product in the free-market that exists today :-) ·------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- codergames 19.16 +Christopher Sonne Government was born out of necessity for control and order. We needed a group of people to maintain the equal rules for everyone to prevent bullies and bad people cheating the system and doing bad things. What we have now is not the government we wanted. So we need a mechanism to control government as well and to eliminate bullies and bad people who are there now or will enter it in the future. Without the control of the government, we do not have government. We cannot have government controlling itself, it's like bad people controlling themselves. We need to purge the government of bad people and then have another body that is changed each time it does it's job of verifying how people inside the government work and what they did so far. · ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 19.25 Government was born out of warlords and empires. It's ancient. It coercion was reduced through countless revolutions and progress in consciousness. From brute force and slavery, to empires that used currencies and taxing. From that to republics and democracies. It did not derive from a "need" I don't understand what you are saying. We need a new "Government" to watch over the Government and everytime it spots corruption, then all people of the watch group are removed and replaced? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Christopher Sonne 19.30 +Christopher Wells No you need to study ancient history. The first governments was brute force and hierarchies through an alpha male and his soldiers. It evolved from that You say a government is formed voluentary. But it's not, it's coercion and can only exist because of that, otherwise you would be free to be an Anarchist in todays world -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Christopher Wells 19.33 +Christopher Sonne A Government is formed not by warlords and empires but by the majority of people who existed at that time through voluntary action. A king is elected because the majority of people wanted a king to establish order in the free-market. They perceived everybody would be better off this way. You are proving my statement I made earlier. When the king is not doing his job he is put out of business by the free-market through the actions of revolution by the people. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- codergames 19.40 +Christopher Sonne This new YouTube is shit. You should reread what I wrote, but in short, if people voted for government, people should be able to control the government, how government works. So, the same way jury works, you pick random people at random times, to check on the government doings. Government should be transparent. We're not here to server government, we voted for it, it needs to serve our needs equally. Government is there to regulate things not to engage into supporting this or that company, not to bypass the laws to give advantage to companies or individuals, that's corruption. Government should be eliminated once that is discovered. Eventually we'll have a normal government, if we control it regularly. ·------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 19.53 A king is not elected. A king is a person that has absolute power and is justifying it by a divine being or/and his bloodline. He rules for life and is only replaced usually if his murdered. He owns the people and they are usually not allowed to move at all from their birthplace, there they work for him on his land. He may give land and it's people to other persons, but they still owe allegiance to him. He is completely dependant on his armies to enforce his rule. The free market did not begin to emerge before the age of Enlightenment in the 1600's. An revolution is the use of violence to overtrown and agency of violence, otherwise there wasn't a need for an revolution. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Wells 20.04 +Christopher Sonne A mentioned in my previous comments: Government is formed by the voluntary actions of the majority people that existed at that time. Unfortunately, coercion happens when there is conflict of opinion between two parties that cannot reach a consensus. In other words, when two parties have opposite points of view they think it easier to use brute force to win the people. But this is a mistake. The free-market will correct this until the people agree on having a Government that provides for the majority of the people. History has shown this through the American Revolution. ·------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Sonne 20.06 +Christopher Wells Free market definition "A market economy based on supply and demand with little or no government control. A completely free market is an idealized form of a market economy where buyers and sellers are allowed to transact freely (i.e. buy/sell/trade) based on a mutual agreement on price without state intervention in the form of taxes, subsidies or regulation." I don't know what your definition is-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- codergames 20.09 +Christopher Wells It just occurred to me that better way would be to not have political parties, but to vote for individuals and their personal skills, for each area of interest. That way we'd have only the best people working on regulating things that governments regulate. It is most likely that people being in the government won't know each other so they'll work the best they can. And each month there should be a monitoring of what each one of them did. This should be done for each of the lower levels as well. Government should be as small as possible and as effective as possible. ·--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Wells 20.13 +Self Education Radio As mentioned in my last comment I posted. The free-market will correct this because it is unsustainable and the people will revolt. Then they will form a new Government through the voluntary actions of the people that are left over after the revolution. Coercion will always be corrected by the free-market 100 out of 100 times. History has shown this to us and we must understand that Government is a product created by free-market capitalism to serve the people for the people. If it did not do this then it would be put out of business like any other product in the free market that exists today. ·------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ codergames 20.19+Christopher Wells I'm kinda hopeful we can avoid revolution and unnecessary bloodbath and make transition from existing systems. We can do that by introducing laws that regulate mandatory monitoring of the government by volunteers. There are good experts inside governments, so we need to weed out the bad apples. The law needs to be passed to ensure control of the government by the people as people voted them. ·---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 20.25 The majority did not contribute in forming the United state. The delcaration of indepedence was made by a small group of individuals. Not a majority vote by the whole United state population. The Constitution was wrote in secrecy and then enforced on everybody else. A government is not being formed by a survey going around to every individual in a giant area asking if they want a rulling institution. Name me one example where the state was formed trough an majority vote, and even if it were so, it's still not voluntary as it's forced on the minority that didn't want it. A Government is a small group of people claiming a monopoly on violence through an coercive institution. In your idealized version it's simply mob rule----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 20.27 +Christopher Wells A market is volentary. If a product would have the same attribute as a state, you would be forced to buy the product or else thrown in jail. Goggle or Youtube can't force you to view their sites. How can you compare a buisness to a government?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- codergames 20.40 +Christopher Sonne We are where we are and it must be possible to make a transition into something better and more transparent, without blood. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------codergames 20.41 +Christopher Sonne Actually Google = YouTube, it's the same company and it is protected and enforced by the US government. All major companies are protected and promoted by the government. That's how they remain #1 on the market. ·------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Wells 20.47 +Christopher Sonne You are right. The people today did not established the Government that existed yesterday. Hence, the free-market (the people) will correct this and establish a new Government that serves the people for the people today. The Government's main objective is to establish human rights, while leaving the people alone. However, when a Government decides to use coercion, establish secret societies, or forms a coalition with Big Business the system fails and will be corrected by the free-market (the people) ·-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 20.49 +codergames I think it's completely okay that you want a society that is constructed in that particular way, I hope you show the same respect towards me. If we live in the same area and I did not want to participate in that government, even if it may be better than the current, what would be done to me? If you want a government I will not prevent you. If I don't want it I would have to be intermidated and punished for the system to uphold. Why? Because a government needs funding through taxes, or inflation in a forced currency to exist and for it laws to have any effect. If you don't want any person to be forced into your system. Congrats it's not a government but a volentary institution. You are an Anarchist.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 20.55 +codergameBut they are not the agency of violence. The government is. They lobby the government for their protection. That is an argument for anarchism------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- codergames 20.56 +Christopher Sonne Once the bullies visit you and rapists rape you and killers kill you, you would change your opinion and would ask for some kind of body that regulates those kinds of things so that you may enjoy the free market. Not all people can pay for a personal body guards. In a free market there will be people who're not able to contribute to society in any way, so their survival will be in question as well. I think you're very shortsighted or simply deliberately refuse to accept the fact that free market won't work without a mechanism that regulates it and prevents bad things from happening. ·-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 21.04 +Christopher Wells The government is coercion.It cannot leave people alone, if it did that it is not a government. Human rights are not granted by someone. You have them naturally. They can only be taken away by other individuals. There is alot of ways that collective defence can be arranged volentary without the most violent institution in the history of mankind I Thank you for your patience though, we are not writing the same language as our definitions do not match up, but you still keep going.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 21.09 +codergames This is interresting because now we are getting practical. If you did not live in a government how would you ensure that people have a collective defence? any suggestion? We now have millions of people to find a way to solve that instead of only a group of people. I think you have a lack of faith in humanity if you really think if we are not forced to help people we will simply let people getting raped and killed. Will you do that? surely is that is the cause why do people vote for welfare for the old and poor? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Wells 21.12 +Christopher Sonne The free-market (the people) will correct this by forming a new Government through voluntary action that protects the rights of the people, while leaving the people alone. Problem solved :-) ·------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- codergames 21.20 +Christopher Sonne Actually many crimes are being committed and are successful because other people look the other way and let those crimes happen. Only a complete idiot can have faith in humanity, as it is not a matter of faith but a matter of healthy conscious. If you do not know your own specie you cannot know anything else that involves your specie. If you notice around you in the nature, animals kills other animals and even members of their own species, this is happening all around us. That is the environment we were born and evolved in. You cannot just switch off that side of our species, LOL. ·------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Sonne 21.40 And your solution is having a group of people with the exact same flaws in an institution that has supreme power compared to anybody else? It's starting to sound insane. I don't know any of my friends that would just kill other people if they can get the chance. Those people obvious do exist but they are in a very very small minority. You have a very corrupt view of humans and cannot have healthy relationsship if you trully believe that humans are so evil. Would you kill me if you were not stopped by anyone? That is a phsycopath. You really think you are the only one that cares? Why do people react on politicians that promise them end of war and poverty if people didn't care ,if people are just narcisistic creatures that wants to control and to kill. It's not true and if it was, the only hope was to have every invidual completely armed in such a way that no one dares to attack first. Like 2 nuclear powers don't attack eachother because of fear of anhilation. people are born good, with the rare exeption of brain damage. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2046604/Babies-know-difference-right-wrong-just-15-months-old.html------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Sonne 21.42 +Christopher Wells Why has this not happen yet? we are starting to going in circles----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- codergames 21.46 +Christopher Sonne You're a cautions little troll, I though YouTube was to be blamed for your misunderstandings, but no, you just ignore what you don't like and also twist my words. I never said I want government with the same people, I actually explained that current government system is bad because it picks from the same bunch of people, same political party. If experts would be pick on an individual level, no political parties involved, we'd end up with a bunch of people who don't know each other, so the government will be efficient. If we add transparent control of the government done by randomly picked people like jury works, that would add another layer of security. We are a specie that needs to be controlled. People tend to socialize with people who're similar to them. Obviously no one wants to socialize with psychopaths, but that doesn't mean that psychopaths are also forming the groups. So your juvenile logic would be a disaster if applied in the real world. ·------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Sonne 22.01 +codergames You think that people will not generally help other in being prevented in being killed or being rapped but you still think that people can be put in a powerful position having a fully justice sense. "If you do not know your own specie you cannot know anything else that involves your specie. If you notice around you in the nature, animals kills other animals and even members of their own species, this is happening all around us. That is the environment we were born and evolved in. You cannot just switch off that side of our species" With that human nature who should pick those experts? If the human condition are so corrupt then picking random people would do nothing to change that. They will be bribed,intermidated with violence if they tried to show the experts corruption. Sociopath do already forms in groups.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Wells 22.11 +Christopher Sonne Yes your correct. Why has this not happen yet? Why do we keep making the same mistakes over and over again? I believe we as humans inherently put our needs first before others (we cannot help but do that). This is known as Game Theory and that is why the entire system is doomed from the beginning. Free market capitalism can only exist when there is only one person left on the planet. He can do whatever he wants kill animals, make spares, build a hut, free from any government intervention. He is free to pursue all his self interests and is only subjected the rules he creates for himself. That's why we must come up with an entirely new system. Paradise or Oblivion its our choice :-)
JohnH. Posted November 27, 2013 Posted November 27, 2013 A Government is formed not by warlords and empires but by the majority of people who existed at that time through voluntary action. A king is elected because the majority of people wanted a king to establish order in the free-market. They perceived everybody would be better off this way. You are proving my statement I made earlier. When the king is not doing his job he is put out of business by the free-market through the actions of revolution by the people. That's quite the gem.
Barry_diller Posted November 27, 2013 Author Posted November 27, 2013 That's quite the gem. He just failed basic public school knowledge about historywauw you actually did read all these? I like better debating irl, you can't be ignored the same way.
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