Self worth and not putting up with abuse

[Kevin Beal]

There's this idea I've been mulling over recently around the way that people respond to verbally abusive, trollish or overtly irrational people, and how it's often the case that people (myself included) will try and calmly and compassionately explain what is so wrong with what that person is saying.

 

I often picture myself as a separate person and watch myself get into conversations with not so nice people, and what I think I've realized is that if I had a friend or a lover (or someone I was very fond of) getting into an argument where the other person started resorting to insulting, passive aggressive or otherwise offensive behavior that I would want to come in and say something to the effect of "who the hell do you think you are talking to [my friend] that way?"

 

I think that everyone can relate to that. (The rest of this post is assuming you do).

 

But for some reason many people do not hold themselves in the same regard, or do not act in the same way when it is themselves in that situation. We take the abuse and try and hold ourselves above it, try not to take it personally etc.

 

I'm starting to think that actually this is a terrible thing we do to ourselves.

 

Why would we expose ourselves to more abuse than the people we care about? Why would we not protect ourselves in the same way we would protect others? Unless of course that we do not care about ourselves that much.

 

If we can hold others accountable for harming us, then why would we not hold ourselves equally accountable for doing the same thing?

 

And so there is this sort of "let's be nice to abusive people" or some kind of NVC or other similar nonsense where the person doing the work is taking the abuse without expressing (righteous) anger. I'm starting to see that as a kind of terribly abusive, self destructive thing.

 

This describes way too many peacemaker childhoods for me to believe that it is somehow going to change as soon as you are an adult. What does the youngest sibling do to avoid family conflict? He / she tries to make everyone agree on some level about something. It usually doesn't matter what that something is, the agreement is the important part. And if the parents hold much more power (as they naturally do) then that something is going to be much more in their favor, regardless of what is true and right.

 

It's that thing that bad therapists do where a couple is fighting and the girlfriend is being abusive about some conflict they are having and the solution the therapist comes up with is to get the boyfriend to sympathize with her and that neglecting to take the trash out causes her "real" pain that he ought sympathize with...

 

There is a kind of terrible superficiality in being nice to abusive people that I would desperately like to stop.

 

The phrase that goes something like:

 

"I understand that when I use a bold font face that it causes you to feel great distress and I really don't want you to feel distress, but there are reasons that I use the bold font face that I would like you to understand"

 

A person who attacks you for using a bold font does not deserve your compassion and to talk to them as if they are a reasonable person is to misunderstand them on a very fundamental level.

 

The only reasons that I've ever heard for why I should respond to people in this way come in two varieties:

 

1. If they are so unreasonable that they must be suffering in some way on the inside and thus deserve our compassion

 

or 

 

2. being compassionate to abusive people makes them much more receptive to your ideas.

 

I'll first address the second.

 

I do not doubt at all that this does result in some short term gains. (Only the most insane person would respond to a non aggressive person with rage). But I would argue that is not going to have a lasting effect on them.

 

I can't count the number of times where I had argued a case with sensitivity and compassion where the person left saying something like "yea, there is something to what you are saying for sure" and then the next time I see them it's like nothing ever happened. They will put forward their position like our conversation had never taken place.

 

I would argue that words don't mean shit if your actions aren't consistent with them. So when you are saying that if you support the threat of violence against me for smoking herb, and I emotionally connect only on the level that we are talking about our favorite flavor of ice cream or something, then that is not going to be (or come across) as authentic. That person is going to behave as if it were a flavor of icecream kind of conversation, and as they should, you trained them to!

 

The fact that hitting your children is abusive has certain implications. Implications of cowardice, abuse, pettiness and conformism. Those are serious implications and pretending that they aren't there doesn't make them go away.

 

And the first excuse for this niceness to abuse is equally as absurd. We absolutely do not owe petty vindictive people our compassion simply because they must suffer on the inside in order to behave that way. People make the decisions that they do. It's a toxic brand of determinism that excuses them on such a ridiculously flimsy basis. You absolutely and completely insult them by making it out like they had no control in the situation. Certainly that is not helpful to them.

 

There is a certain amount of ignorance that I can totally excuse and sympathize with, but that's very rare actually. The overwhelming case seems to be that people act as if they do not believe a single word of what they are saying.

 

For instance a person who believes in god is not praying for that god to grow back their amputated limb. A subjectivist isn't saying "I feel silly saying this, but I think that you are wrong, and I have no certainty at all that the basis of my objection has anything to do with truth". A determinist doesn't try and use a particular configuration of words to program your mind into accepting their conclusions, they argue their position. You get the point.

 

Likewise the people who react with hostility, passive aggression, wanton irrationality know (at least on some level) that they are full of shit. Their suffering is to a significant degree self inflicted.

 

The consequences of this may be severe. The first thing is of course that it's a continuation of past abuses, reproducing that peacemaker defense we developed responding to petty parents, teachers etc. We lock ourselves deeper into this self abuse and raise complacent children with low self worth.

 

The other problem is that it makes compassion into a virtue rather than a natural bi-product of the actions that elicit it, making anger, annoyance, irritation into lesser experiences that only get in the way of this (ostensibly) mature and enlightened compassion. The emotional response becomes a pretense, insincere, unreal, toxic.

 

Maybe it's the case that being nice is a good tactic, but I think it's important to be absolutely certain that it's not just a way of denying yourself (or somebody else) your honest experience. You may be doing far more harm than good.

 

Anyway, what do you think?

[PatrickC]

And the first excuse for this niceness to abuse is equally as absurd. We absolutely do not owe petty vindictive people our compassion simply because they must suffer on the inside in order to behave that way. People make the decisions that they do. It's a toxic brand of determinism that excuses them on such a ridiculously flimsy basis. You absolutely and completely insult them by making it out like they had no control in the situation. Certainly that is not helpful to them.

 

Great stuff Kevin. Lot of this knocking around on the board of late. Being nice to bad people, is just bad advice

[Mike Fleming]

 

And the first excuse for this niceness to abuse is equally as absurd. We absolutely do not owe petty vindictive people our compassion simply because they must suffer on the inside in order to behave that way. People make the decisions that they do. It's a toxic brand of determinism that excuses them on such a ridiculously flimsy basis. You absolutely and completely insult them by making it out like they had no control in the situation. Certainly that is not helpful to them.

 

 

Once bad behaviour is pointed out to someone, assuming they are not a psychopath, they then have a choice to continue on the way they are in the full knowledge that they are not behaving well, or attempt to change their behaviour.

 

Sorry, if you've pointed this out, your post was bit tldr, but I tried to get the gist of it.

 

I agree that we don't have to be compassionate towards abusive people.  For me, people get at least one chance with me, sometimes more than one depending on how they are and what they say.  Generally, not always, but generally, if someone is at least somewhat articulate in their thoughts I am willing to give them quite a few chances.  I try not to take things personally on message boards, but in real life, I generally see no need to be particularly compassionate to really abusive people or those who show no willingness to change their behaviour.   If they seem beyond hope, my usual strategy, both on the boards and in real life, is to disengage.

[Guest Exceptionalist]

Once bad behaviour is pointed out to someone, assuming they are not a psychopath, they then have a choice to continue on the way they are in the full knowledge that they are not behaving well, or attempt to change their behaviour.

 

Why should someone change its behaviour, just because of some "crybaby" thinks it is bad? This person is acting out for a reason.

 

The other problem is that it makes compassion into a virtue rather than a natural bi-product of the actions that elicit it, making anger, annoyance, irritation into lesser experiences that only get in the way of this (ostensibly) mature and enlightened compassion.

 

 

"Adjective" compassion anyone? Compassion arrises out of the level of knowledge of the situation of the other person's situation, that's it. There is no level of high sophisticated compassion vs. low level compassion. That's all in your head.

 

Likewise the people who react with hostility, passive aggression, wanton irrationality know (at least on some level) that they are full of shit. Their suffering is to a significant degree self inflicted.

 

 

You make up escuses to not pitty them. There is no guilt on their part, so far you don't make the case that avoidance of therapie was some kinda guilt on their part. Off course pitty is highly subjective and most of the time the level of empathy required is too much to bear. Maybe non-violent communication by Marshal Rosenberg can be of any help.

 

You absolutely and completely insult them by making it out like they had no control in the situation. Certainly that is not helpful to them.

 

 

Like a drug addict who can choose not to be a drug addict from one moment to another. Certainly that is not helpful to them. To feel insulted, just because someone made a unreasonable claim is a bit too much to ask.

[_LiveFree_]

For someone to abuse you, they must first abuse themselves. To tell this person 'no' is the greatest act of compassion because it interrupts their pattern of abuse. And although the abusive person is 100% responsible for their actions, there is a sadistic streak in the abused who continue to allow the abuse to continue.  

 

When you continue to engage with someone who has repeatedly demonstrated abusive behavior and is unwilling to alter this behavior, you are lacking compassion for not only the abuser but also, and more importantly, yourself. 

 

Stef said something on Wednesday's call in show about how his daughter was fascinated by Peter Joseph because of the language he used in response to Stef's response to the debate. She had never encountered that before. It made me realize how early and normalized abusive conflict was for me at a very young age. I bet it's ingrained in all of us that we have to tolerate this type of junk in order to survive. 

 

Imagine a world where someone used abusive language and was looked upon with utter fascination by all of those around; as if he had sprouted 6 arms out of his back. 

[CrazyCanuck]

Show me where anger has positive effect.  Not once have I seen positive effects from anger.  I have seen anger causes stress, frustration, etc.  Even with myself it caused problems not something helped me.  Do you have a right to be angry?  Sure you do.  Does it help any?  I highly doubt it.  People expect others to get angry, that's what they expect but when you are compassionate there's nothing they can do.  They just get frustrated and leave.  I had people angry at me, calling me names and sort.  I was kind and firm to them.  I told them if they couldn't be respectful to anyone they had to leave.  Nothing they said could get me angry and later on they came back apologizing.  I said no need to apologize just asked them to act with respect they would expect from others.  If I got angry I would have lost a custom.  In fact that has happened before.

[Wesley]

Show me where anger has positive effect.  Not once have I seen positive effects from anger.  I have seen anger causes stress, frustration, etc.  Even with myself it caused problems not something helped me.  Do you have a right to be angry?  Sure you do.  Does it help any?  I highly doubt it.  People expect others to get angry, that's what they expect but when you are compassionate there's nothing they can do.  They just get frustrated and leave.  I had people angry at me, calling me names and sort.  I was kind and firm to them.  I told them if they couldn't be respectful to anyone they had to leave.  Nothing they said could get me angry and later on they came back apologizing.  I said no need to apologize just asked them to act with respect they would expect from others.  If I got angry I would have lost a custom.  In fact that has happened before.

Anger is the innoculation of abuse. If I get trapped in a situation of verbal abuse, getting angry at it ensures that I am much less likely to be in that situation again. You can get angry to set boundaries for when someone goes to far in a relationship. You can get angry in order to defend yourself or the people you love. You can get angry at abuse which would lead to you never acting in that way yourself. You can get angry which can drive you to make changes in the world or in yourself. There are many potential positives of anger.

[CrazyCanuck]

Anger is the innoculation of abuse. If I get trapped in a situation of verbal abuse, getting angry at it ensures that I am much less likely to be in that situation again. You can get angry to set boundaries for when someone goes to far in a relationship. You can get angry in order to defend yourself or the people you love. You can get angry at abuse which would lead to you never acting in that way yourself. You can get angry which can drive you to make changes in the world or in yourself. There are many potential positives of anger.

Anger never helped me and when i was a kid if I was to be angry because people hurt me I would be angry constantly.  It's not just my parents that hurt me.  My sister caused problems so did some of my teachers. Kids giving me a hard time and more.  I made bag judgements when I got angry even if was other aspect of my life.  In business especially when you deal with the public you can't get angry at them and tell me off. You lose customers.

 

Sometimes I get frustrated and that's not good either.  I try to tone it down with peeve.  I'm more calm and tend to make better judgements.  I don't know any business people making good business decision with anger.  If you think anger helps show me an example where anger helped at all.

Anger is the innoculation of abuse. If I get trapped in a situation of verbal abuse, getting angry at it ensures that I am much less likely to be in that situation again. You can get angry to set boundaries for when someone goes to far in a relationship. You can get angry in order to defend yourself or the people you love. You can get angry at abuse which would lead to you never acting in that way yourself. You can get angry which can drive you to make changes in the world or in yourself. There are many potential positives of anger.

You failed to show me real world example how anger helped someone.  In martial arts you even slightest angry you lose concentration and you perform not as well.  My sister made a lie about me and my aunt stabbed me in the back.  But they are the ones stressed over and angry.  i know because she talked crap about me.  The sad fact my sister been back stabbed by my aunt shows it.  My aunt been even mean to her students.  She is so unhappy with her life and angry at people.  Her husband died a few years ago but this is going overboard.  She has more than enough money, things you she wants, she has more friends and others who care deeply about her yet she is the one is miserable.  I was really angry eventually, I failed most people would have been angry long ago.  Now I look at it it was petty things.  She just has negativiity and been too much to even to talk to.  Once I realize it was something wasn't worth getting angry over I was calm and made rational decisions.  I can say this I gave her the fair chance more chances than I go give most people.

 

Life is too short to be angry I have better things to do.  The autocorrect feature on my browser is "peeving" me. 

[Wesley]

Anger never helped me and when i was a kid if I was to be angry because people hurt me I would be angry constantly.  It's not just my parents that hurt me.  My sister caused problems so did some of my teachers. Kids giving me a hard time and more.  I made bag judgements when I got angry even if was other aspect of my life.  In business especially when you deal with the public you can't get angry at them and tell me off. You lose customers.

 

Sometimes I get frustrated and that's not good either.  I try to tone it down with peeve.  I'm more calm and tend to make better judgements.  I don't know any business people making good business decision with anger.  If you think anger helps show me an example where anger helped at all.

You failed to show me real world example how anger helped someone.  In martial arts you even slightest angry you lose concentration and you perform not as well.  My sister made a lie about me and my aunt stabbed me in the back.  But they are the ones stressed over and angry.  i know because she talked crap about me.  The sad fact my sister been back stabbed by my aunt shows it.  My aunt been even mean to her students.  She is so unhappy with her life and angry at people.  Her husband died a few years ago but this is going overboard.  She has more than enough money, things you she wants, she has more friends and others who care deeply about her yet she is the one is miserable.  I was really angry eventually, I failed most people would have been angry long ago.  Now I look at it it was petty things.  She just has negativiity and been too much to even to talk to.  Once I realize it was something wasn't worth getting angry over I was calm and made rational decisions.  I can say this I gave her the fair chance more chances than I go give most people.

 

Life is too short to be angry I have better things to do.  The autocorrect feature on my browser is "peeving" me. 

I listed several examples as to where anger could be helpful. I think all of the examples I listed have been relevant to me at some point in my life.

[CrazyCanuck]

I listed several examples as to where anger could be helpful. I think all of the examples I listed have been relevant to me at some point in my life.

I mean something you can prove, meaning links.  I don't agree with many professional claiming anger is healthy.  That would be like saying poison is healthy in small amounts.

[Wesley]

I mean something you can prove, meaning links.  I don't agree with many professional claiming anger is healthy.  That would be like saying poison is healthy in small amounts.

What kind of evidence would prove this to you? You already seems to discount any professional that claims anger is healthy or my own personal experience where anger has helped me.

 

I cannot come up with a solution to a problem where every available solution doesn't count.

[Kevin Beal]

What kind of evidence would prove this to you? You already seems to discount any professional that claims anger is healthy or my own personal experience where anger has helped me.

 

I cannot come up with a solution to a problem where every available solution doesn't count.

Don't bother. He proved himself wrong in another thread with his own "evidence". It has everything to do with excusing abuse and nothing to do with the truth.

http://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/37578-why-so-critical-of-deepak-chopras-work/

"Adjective" compassion anyone? Compassion arrises out of the level of knowledge of the situation of the other person's situation, that's it. There is no level of high sophisticated compassion vs. low level compassion. That's all in your head.

I didn't say that there was. You thinking I did is all in your head

 

 

 

Maybe non-violent communication by Marshal Rosenberg can be of any help.

Maybe NVC is helpful in some situations. I am not any kind of expert on it, but if anybody uses the kind of script I showed above I will immediately resent it because it's condescending and insincere.

[CrazyCanuck]

What kind of evidence would prove this to you? You already seems to discount any professional that claims anger is healthy or my own personal experience where anger has helped me.

 

I cannot come up with a solution to a problem where every available solution doesn't count.

You're being vague.  I give precise example what went on and how I deal with it.

Don't bother. He proved himself wrong in another thread with his own "evidence". It has everything to do with excusing abuse and nothing to do with the truth.

http://board.freedomainradio.com/topic/37578-why-so-critical-of-deepak-chopras-work/

 

 

 

Maybe you don't understand?  There is a process, you work at it like anything it's like a muscle.  You think you won't get angry but you are being test.  I used to get angry over little things those things no long bother me.  Since it doesn't bother me it doesn't stresses me out.  Once I deal with my last one I will be tested again.  Every I got angry it's made things worse.  I resolved them by having higher moral standard and looking within.  

If you paid attention when you got angry and how it affected your life you will see it's not so great.  Besides I can easily forgive so I don't have to suffer for so long.

[Wesley]

You're being vague.  I give precise example what went on and how I deal with it.

I didn't answer anything. I was asking what proof you wanted. You didn't answer my question at all. I think I am done with this.

 

(Here is an example of anger leading to me not continuing to beat my head againt a wall and being quite helpful.)

[CrazyCanuck]

 

Anger is the innoculation of abuse. If I get trapped in a situation of verbal abuse, getting angry at it ensures that I am much less likely to be in that situation again. You can get angry to set boundaries for when someone goes to far in a relationship. You can get angry in order to defend yourself or the people you love. You can get angry at abuse which would lead to you never acting in that way yourself. You can get angry which can drive you to make changes in the world or in yourself. There are many potential positives of anger.

Those are general broad examples.  What did the person say?  What did you say?  Were you screaming or raising your voice?  What was the conflict was about and how did you resolve with anger.  I can talk in general terms too but it's too vague.  I am not asking for something difficult here.

I didn't answer anything. I was asking what proof you wanted. You didn't answer my question at all. I think I am done with this.

 

(Here is an example of anger leading to me not continuing to beat my head againt a wall and being quite helpful.)

Show men proof by giving an example how you resolved with anger.  Precise example.  Let's say I don't disagree with you but that doesn't tell me how you did it or how I could do it for myself.  For example you could say that your girlfriend is yelling at you for not doing some of your chores.  But you work 14 hours day and she just works the normal 8 hours.  You feel you don't deserved to be yelled at and belittled.  So you get mad and you ……….

 

Something a long those lines.  If you aren't precise I don't have a clue how you resolve it.

[Kevin Beal]

I thought of an exception to the rule.

 

If there's a situation where you are unsure about whether or not you are right (as opposed to correcting someone) then the tactic of being calm and nice is good so that any kind of hostile response will make you certain that it's not you who's being unreasonable.

 

Like if there's some area where I've got a history of projection, then I think it's wise to be nice and calm until you can be sure that the disagreement is not out of projection.

 

Something like that.