In the belly of the beast Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 I have a major problem with boredom and hopelessness in my life, and some intelligent outside help from the fine folks at FDR could be mighty helpful. What follows is a summary of abortive career pathways. To provide context, I am in my early 30s. Right after high school, I did a bachelors in chemistry, followed by a masters degree in chemistry. The original goal here was to pursue a doctorate in chemistry, but after watching my colleagues spend 5-8 years of their lives performing repetitive experiments, followed for many by 2-4 years of post-doctoral fellowships (more of the same at a slightly higher pay), l decided to complete a masters degree instead. Although I have always been prone to depression, I did not begin to procrastinate or succumb to apathy until near the end of my masters degree, and even then it was still fairly mild in intensity. Although the lab work in grad school did not appeal to me very much, I really enjoyed teaching (in this program, all grad students taught undergraduate chemistry labs and drop-in problem solving sessions). After doing some reading in the areas of psychology and psychiatry, as well as dating a masters student in counseling psychology, I decided that it would be fun and rewarding to try to teach people how to solve challenges within their own lives. Even at this point in my life, while a political conservative in worldview, I saw how dysfunctional the public school system is, and had no respect for the training in education degree programs (B.Ed.'s), so a career as a high school chemistry teacher was ruled out. Additionally, my mother was a clinical social worker who told me stories of her work, which always sounded interesting, even if conducted within a clearly dysfunctional public mental health system. I now think that I was given an unwarrantedly positive view of psychiatrists by my mother, and a somewhat negative view of clinical psychologists. So after finishing my M.Sc. in chemistry, I rather naively set off for medical school as a means to the end of becoming a psychiatrist. If other interesting career options within medicine caught my imagination while on that road, so much the better. So, I was in medical school for three years with a goal of pursuing a career in psychiatry. When I began my medical school career, I was not a libertarian (much less an anarcho-capitalist) and more or less fully bought into the propaganda behind conventional psychiatry. This has changed substantially, and my goal in medical school was modified into my current goal of doing training in psychiatry, augmented with additional training in psychotherapy, in order to become a direct pay psychotherapist who might have used medication sparingly. I succumbed to apathy and boredom after a few months in medical school, as well as depression, and was unable to continue after struggling for three years in this endeavor (actually four years if you count an additional year of undergrad I took in order to improve my GPA). After washing out of a mind-numbing stint in medical school, I've set myself the goal of becoming a direct-pay psychotherapist. In order to pursue this, I'm now back taking undergrad courses in psychology in an attempt to prepare for graduate training in clinical psychology. Right now I am finishing one semester out of a necessary four semesters needed to apply to graduate school in clinical psychology. However, after the novelty of this change of environment wore off (within about three or four weeks), I find myself not caring at all about the content, thinking the next two years of undergrad psychology will be boring and mostly useless (in terms of useful knowledge), and suspecting that graduate training in clinical psychology will be contain more boring and mostly pointless content delivered at a faster pace, as in medical school. Not coincidentally, I find myself constantly procrastinating on what should be easy work. Sometimes I think of trying to enter the workforce with my masters degree in chemistry. When I look at the entry level white collar job market, I see myself being lucky getting an insecure, poor paying job doing mind numbing work as a lab technician. I feel so trapped, with a voice in my head saying I have no good options. Any pathway will result in mind numbing tedium, eventual burnout, and surrounded by propagandized/emotionally damaged people incapable of talking about anything but tedious trivia. All this while the economies of the world continue their slow collapse, and the emerging Fourth Reich continues to grow. This is not the mindset that I want to have, but therapy has not been useful in turning me to a more productive direction. I would be ever so appreciative of any thoughts on this situation.
Wuzzums Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 If someone were to give you a constant salary for actively doing something until the end of your life, what would that something be?
Mishelle Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 Hearing you dear! I wish I had good answers and this sounds to me like a good case for Super Stef. But as I suspect with that title you might be feeling either not ready for that step or more desperate than the wait-list might require, here's my two cents. You are stacking universal problems on top of personal problems for a reason. What happened with your therapy? Unfortunately no matter your worry or desperation you cannot tackle the 4th Reich issue at the moment. A fav teacher once said: "Secure your own safety mask first." I would add, this could take years, work it good and hard. And give yourself a break! Who wants to live in tedium? That you have realized you can't take it is a blessing in disguise (sorry for the religious connotations). Whether it's easy or difficult is not important--is it fulfilling to you? Does it bring you happiness? Do you lose time while doing it you are so absorbed? If not, get the hell out asap! You've mentioned career and world issues, what's deeper? What would Stef ask? hmmmm. . .
_LiveFree_ Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 That massive weight holding you down is your past, your childhood. Like a massive iron ball tethered to your ankle, it is keeping you from getting out of the ocean. The farther you try to go the further the ball rolls into deeper regions. But that tether is only so long. Eventually, you'll be completely underwater and unable to breathe or survive. Stop focusing on what you think you should be doing and focus on releasing that tether. Trees need space to grow. Right now, you have no space within your mind to grow. Do not mistake intellectual achievement as growth. When you are free of your past, your future will unfold as it should, or in the best way it can. If you haven't already, read this book. http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Intelligence-Matter-More-Than/dp/055338371X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385255083&sr=8-1&keywords=emotional+intelligence How often in therapy did your childhood and relationship to your parents come up? Do you avoid these topics?
Sayo Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 I swear its like I have heard this story before, a medical student wanting to be a psychiatrist but feeling apathetic about it all because (at least in part) of their new insights into the practice of psychiatry. I'm not sure if It was you who was talking to Stef but the similarities between this post and that call are uncanny to say the very least. This post is really sad, tough to read but at the same time, kind of irritating at the end. I feel so trapped, with a voice in my head saying I have no good options. Any pathway will result in mind numbing tedium, eventual burnout, and surrounded by propagandized/emotionally damaged people incapable of talking about anything but tedious trivia. All this while the economies of the world continue their slow collapse, and the emerging Fourth Reich continues to grow. This is not the mindset that I want to have, but therapy has not been useful in turning me to a more productive direction. I would be ever so appreciative of any thoughts on this situation. I wonder what you want us to say? School sucks, crappy job sucks and therapy sucks. How about reading chicken entrails and following that advice, maybe that might workout for you because the one thing that I was banking on (proven to consistently raise happiness in studies) just doesn't work on you so i suppose I should just throw my hands in the air and praise Jesus because god knows you need the messiah. What happened to your will? fighting? your human spirit striving to reach that higher plane, no matter the cost. There are times for bind courage too. When the only weapon you got clicks empty then; you hit them with its hilt, if the hilt should break, you use your fits, if they too fail, then, your teeth. Stef says he doesn't know where people loose this idea that children encapsulate so well as they struggle to learn trivial things as the grasping of spoons and walking: "You do something until it works, you do something until it works, you do something until it works, you do something until it works, you do something until it works..." - Stefan Molyneux (yes that's a real quote). You don't just throw your hands in the air and type up some depressing post about how nothing can get you out of your mental quicksand. You (to paraphrase Winston Churchill) should defend your island, whatever the cost may be, you should fight on the beaches, you should fight on the landing grounds, you should fight in the fields and in the streets, you should fight in the hills; you should never surrender! As a silver donator you don't need me to make a compelling case for the methodology that we speak of here, i'm sure you get it, enough to put your hard earned silver into. Yes its very difficult to find the right therapist and it gets a lot darker before you see any light, no doubt, but to come out and say that therapy doesn't work for you seemed like a cop out to me and a slap in the face setting up an impossible situation; doctor doctor please help me modern medicine doesn't work on my ailments and its not because i'm afraid of needles... or is it? I know this is a bit of a rant but I felt like putting it out there and seeing what the reaction might be as this was my, perhaps coarse, but honest reaction to the post.
Mishelle Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 Wow, Sayo, disagree on your approach here. Don't kick a man when he's down. Get curious, want to know, or your just bringing your own shit into the conversation. Tough love (and let's assume that's what you intended) does not replace compassion, there is a human attached to those words, or at least we must assume until otherwise challenged.
jupson Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 I don’t have any proper advice, but I’m right there with you, OP. I was academically building myself into an occupation I was exceptionally good at, but I lost interest when I began to question my motivations for doing it. I didn’t have a good answer, so I stopped to figure myself out. I think examining the tethers of your past is a good starting point, as suggested by Nathan. In my case, I was driven to excel in my chosen field due to pressure from family, church, and society to succeed. Not because I was particularly passionate about media production, I was just good at it. Additionally, I felt the need to impress the people in my life. I believe this is a heart-wrenchingly difficult position; feeling that you have to please everyone to be considered valuable. I know that for myself, this people-pleasing attitude must cease and honesty needs to rise to the forefront of my motivation.
Just Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 I believe this is a heart-wrenchingly difficult position; feeling that you have to please everyone to be considered valuable. That is IMO one of the most difficult things to get past in life. But, garnering approval from, and trying to impress are two different scenarios. Any shred of confidence we have in this life comes from our relations with others, its only natural to want to succeed in life, gain their approval, and set out an example for them, you know? Being that beacon of courage which might, through our own success, help others succeed. This is not the mindset that I want to have, but therapy has not been useful in turning me to a more productive direction. When your opinion of potential coworkers is, "propagandized/emotionally damaged people incapable of talking about anything but tedious trivia." you're shooting yourself in the foot. Your outlook on others appears to be a reflection of yourself. First off, we will always see ourselves in others, the whole friend vs foe biological hard-wiring is tough to overcome. Secondly, we will always blame other people for what we're guilty of ourselves. Alcoholics tend to accuse others of being alcoholics, abusive mothers scrutanize the way others raise their kid while defending their right to spank. Have you considered your outlook on others as a place to start? When's the last time you had a meaningful conversation with someone which wasn't "tedious trivia"? Are you "emotionally drained"? Recognize too that you can't lack the will to change and expect an overnight cure from your therapist. Don't kick a man when he's down. Get curious, want to know, or your just bringing your own shit into the conversation. Tough love (and let's assume that's what you intended) does not replace compassion. I'm really glad your input exists in this thread Mishelle, because I agree with Sayo. It's not tough love (IMO) when you reflect OP's own frustration of his situation. I thought Sayo got to the core of the issue while also attempting to share that inspiration that we all need time to time. When a friend's brother died a few years ago, she had a friend approach her with this big ol smile on her face thinking it would help, like bring some sunshine you know? -- it wound up making the whole situation so much worse. It's a tough gig when you try to comfort someone and your on the whole opposite end of the emotional spectrum. Again, IMO - tried and true, empathy comes in all flavors - and having someone get frustrated and angry with you can be a beautiful thing
In the belly of the beast Posted November 25, 2013 Author Posted November 25, 2013 A sincere thank you to everyone who took the time to craft a response. It's always good to hear very distinct approaches and reactions. If someone were to give you a constant salary for actively doing something until the end of your life, what would that something be? Probably engage in teaching, possibly in Socratic style individual and small group learning guided by the interests of the students. I am unsure how viable it would be to find this type of position within a traditional private or alternative private school setting (such as the Sudbury Valley School). The labour market for new teachers is absolutely horrendous (many education programs in Canada are cranking out 2-3 times the number of teachers that can be supported within the public and private school systems), even before the additional challenge of avoiding the public school system. When I was younger, nearly everything to do with the sciences, as well as many types of science fiction, gave me a sense of wonder. I think this is what got me through my undergraduate years in chemistry (despite nontrivial attentional difficulties after coming off of about ten years of Ritalin and anti-depressants), as well as my graduate courses in chemistry. This sense of wonder, in the real world sciences at least, began to significantly fade as the repetitive nature of lab work at the graduate level became a part of my everyday reality. Instead of a sense that I was contributing to the advancement of our species in a meaningful way, of knowledge and mastery over the natural world, it became something so much smaller and more circumcscribed. I've noticed that novelty will give me an artificial enthusiasm for just about any new academic program or job that I try, but within a few weeks this dies. This is probably an extremely common pattern, so I'm not sure if this is useful information or if it means anything. Hearing you dear! I wish I had good answers and this sounds to me like a good case for Super Stef. But as I suspect with that title you might be feeling either not ready for that step or more desperate than the wait-list might require, here's my two cents. You are stacking universal problems on top of personal problems for a reason. What happened with your therapy? Unfortunately no matter your worry or desperation you cannot tackle the 4th Reich issue at the moment. A fav teacher once said: "Secure your own safety mask first." I would add, this could take years, work it good and hard. And give yourself a break! Who wants to live in tedium? That you have realized you can't take it is a blessing in disguise (sorry for the religious connotations). Whether it's easy or difficult is not important--is it fulfilling to you? Does it bring you happiness? Do you lose time while doing it you are so absorbed? If not, get the hell out asap! You've mentioned career and world issues, what's deeper? What would Stef ask? hmmmm. . . Scheduling a second chat with Stef sounds like a good idea. Yesterday, when I typed this post, was a particularly bad day, so the situation is not so bad that I can't wait a week or two to schedule another chat. I chatted with Stef in August about lifelong difficulties in emotionally connecting with others, and I have began to have some modest success in opening up to my mother and to the odd acquaintance/casual friend. Perhaps this longstanding loneliness (which is mostly still present) is interfering with my motivation outside of my social life. Other than to continue to do what I am currently doing in my social and family lives (greater honesty), I am not sure how I can make more rapid progress. My current self-knowledge reading is Nathaniel Branden's "The Psychology of Romantic Love", and I still devour any new podcasts put out by Stef. I also have a therapy session scheduled for later in the week. The stacking of universal problems unto personal ones is a valid point. Personal freedom is certainly required for happiness (freedom = virtue = happiness). I feel the urge to "spread the gospel" and try to share the insights that I have gained about the world via Freedomain Radio and other sources. Perhaps I should ease off on reading all of those Zero Hedge articles about economic collapse and the entry level job market? I don't really have a good answer for this question. Maybe moving to a larger center, finding like-minded people, and finding employment (even if part time) would do me good. Being back in undergrad feels like a shame-inducing trip to Never-Never Land. I realize that this shame is externally imposed in its origin, yet it lingers. Possibly it's because I grew up in a fairly traditional household where a man's worth was mostly determined by his role as a reliable and stoic breadwinner. Maybe I haven't found the right therapist? I usually get the sense that I am directing the therapist in the manner of an intelligent puppet, rather than collaborating with a professional who can give me insight. I never got that sense of being a puppeteer trying to coax greater initiative out of a puppet when talking to Stef. Maybe it means I have a secretly controlling personality or mild delusions of grandeur? I honestly don't know at this point in time. I certainly used to alternate between trying to exercise OCDish levels of control through various routines, and at other times going along with whatever. I had thought that I had left this behind me 5+ years ago. That massive weight holding you down is your past, your childhood. Like a massive iron ball tethered to your ankle, it is keeping you from getting out of the ocean. The farther you try to go the further the ball rolls into deeper regions. But that tether is only so long. Eventually, you'll be completely underwater and unable to breathe or survive. Stop focusing on what you think you should be doing and focus on releasing that tether. Trees need space to grow. Right now, you have no space within your mind to grow. Do not mistake intellectual achievement as growth. When you are free of your past, your future will unfold as it should, or in the best way it can. If you haven't already, read this book. http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Intelligence-Matter-More-Than/dp/055338371X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385255083&sr=8-1&keywords=emotional+intelligence How often in therapy did your childhood and relationship to your parents come up? Do you avoid these topics? I have downloaded the sample of that book to my Kindle and will take a gander at it once I have worked through my current Nathaniel Branden book. Thanks for the resource recommendation. My childhood has come up in therapy, and I am not aware of a conscious effort on my part to avoid these topics. My parents did put me on various psychotropic meds between the ages of 9-18 (and quite possibly sporadic druggings earlier in my life for anxiety), notably Ritalin and an SSRI. It is not lost on me now that I may quite possibly have inflicted this drugging on other children if I had not discovered FDR and had been successful in getting through all of the hurdles to becoming a psychiatrist. Long standing social isolation and emotional shutdown prior to age 18 is what I can remember of my home life. I am still working through this anger at being drugged and emotionally abandoned throughout those years. There seems to be a persistent effort to assign diagostic labels: AD(H)D, aspergers, social anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder. For a long time, I internalized these labels and interpreted them to mean that I was grossly defective, which was something shameful I had to hide due to the risk of semi-permanent social ostracism and professional failure. Being persistently ignored by peers in elementary, middle, and high school did not help to dispel this belief. I no longer consciously believe that I am defective, but I am sure that these beliefs still have some presence in my unconscious. My mother seems like a better prospect for honesty than either my father or younger brother, so I have been gradually pushing through those defenses of hers. We'll see how that goes. I swear its like I have heard this story before, a medical student wanting to be a psychiatrist but feeling apathetic about it all because (at least in part) of their new insights into the practice of psychiatry. I'm not sure if It was you who was talking to Stef but the similarities between this post and that call are uncanny to say the very least. This post is really sad, tough to read but at the same time, kind of irritating at the end. I wonder what you want us to say? School sucks, crappy job sucks and therapy sucks. How about reading chicken entrails and following that advice, maybe that might workout for you because the one thing that I was banking on (proven to consistently raise happiness in studies) just doesn't work on you so i suppose I should just throw my hands in the air and praise Jesus because god knows you need the messiah. What happened to your will? fighting? your human spirit striving to reach that higher plane, no matter the cost. There are times for bind courage too. When the only weapon you got clicks empty then; you hit them with its hilt, if the hilt should break, you use your fits, if they too fail, then, your teeth. Stef says he doesn't know where people loose this idea that children encapsulate so well as they struggle to learn trivial things as the grasping of spoons and walking: "You do something until it works, you do something until it works, you do something until it works, you do something until it works, you do something until it works..." - Stefan Molyneux (yes that's a real quote). You don't just throw your hands in the air and type up some depressing post about how nothing can get you out of your mental quicksand. You (to paraphrase Winston Churchill) should defend your island, whatever the cost may be, you should fight on the beaches, you should fight on the landing grounds, you should fight in the fields and in the streets, you should fight in the hills; you should never surrender! As a silver donator you don't need me to make a compelling case for the methodology that we speak of here, i'm sure you get it, enough to put your hard earned silver into. Yes its very difficult to find the right therapist and it gets a lot darker before you see any light, no doubt, but to come out and say that therapy doesn't work for you seemed like a cop out to me and a slap in the face setting up an impossible situation; doctor doctor please help me modern medicine doesn't work on my ailments and its not because i'm afraid of needles... or is it? I know this is a bit of a rant but I felt like putting it out there and seeing what the reaction might be as this was my, perhaps coarse, but honest reaction to the post. You have indeed heard some of this story before. I think some of your questions are answered in my replies above. At first I felt annoyance at your reply, since it brought to mind the old "suck it up" and "African children are starving in Ethiopia" shaming tactics applied to me by my father and brother, but I think your reply is intended as a "never give up" kind of inspiration. I was at a low point yesterday, so I haven't given up yet. I am frightened of falling into another episode of depression, and I think it was a slightly exaggerated cry for help. Impatience and frustration with my slow rate of progress is likely playing a factor as well. What's your work history? Beyond initial fast food and cashier positions, I have worked for two summers of undergraduate work in two different branches of chemistry (analytical/environmental and inorganic synthesis), two years of graduate level experimental research in analytical chemistry, working as both an undergraduate and graduate teaching assistant (chemistry labs and drop-in problem solving sessions), and a summer research project in psychiatry (patient and family interviewing, study recruitment, data processing). Other summers and years featured volunteer work (math, ESL, archaeological dig) and language learning (namely French and Spanish). That is IMO one of the most difficult things to get past in life. But, garnering approval from, and trying to impress are two different scenarios. Any shred of confidence we have in this life comes from our relations with others, its only natural to want to succeed in life, gain their approval, and set out an example for them, you know? Being that beacon of courage which might, through our own success, help others succeed. When your opinion of potential coworkers is, "propagandized/emotionally damaged people incapable of talking about anything but tedious trivia." you're shooting yourself in the foot. Your outlook on others appears to be a reflection of yourself. First off, we will always see ourselves in others, the whole friend vs foe biological hard-wiring is tough to overcome. Secondly, we will always blame other people for what we're guilty of ourselves. Alcoholics tend to accuse others of being alcoholics, abusive mothers scrutanize the way others raise their kid while defending their right to spank. Have you considered your outlook on others as a place to start? When's the last time you had a meaningful conversation with someone which wasn't "tedious trivia"? Are you "emotionally drained"? Recognize too that you can't lack the will to change and expect an overnight cure from your therapist. I'm really glad your input exists in this thread Mishelle, because I agree with Sayo. It's not tough love (IMO) when you reflect OP's own frustration of his situation. I thought Sayo got to the core of the issue while also attempting to share that inspiration that we all need time to time. When a friend's brother died a few years ago, she had a friend approach her with this big ol smile on her face thinking it would help, like bring some sunshine you know? -- it wound up making the whole situation so much worse. It's a tough gig when you try to comfort someone and your on the whole opposite end of the emotional spectrum. Again, IMO - tried and true, empathy comes in all flavors - and having someone get frustrated and angry with you can be a beautiful thing Yours may be the most challenging of all these posts to respond to, just in the difficulty of some of the questions that you raise. Maybe I need to cut other people some slack. I think part of this is being in a statist institution and not being able to discuss one of my current primary interests (libertarian and ancap philosophy, economics, and related interpretations of psychology). Another part may be that I am still adjusting to the consequences of a new worldview, as I was a conservative only 13 or 14 months in the past, and have probably only really been fully diving into FDR for the past 9 or 10 months. Add the recent major life changes detailed in my original post, and sprinkle with major lifelong social and emotional isolation, and you've got yourself a potential recipe for cynicism and some mild paranoia towards other people. Maybe it's a superiority complex as a defense. On a brighter note, I actually had a good conversation with my mother today over brunch. I've been gradually introducing her to some of the topics discussed on FDR, so there's some hope yet. The same goes for one of my classmates in my current psychology courses. There is a small shard of optimism and progress here that could grow with time. Despite this, I have typically found a distinct lack of curiosity from other people. I suffered from this as well in the past, and I am trying to change that. If we weren't surrounded by damaged people who place numerous "no go" areas in our daily conversations, would we not live in a free society? I don’t have any proper advice, but I’m right there with you, OP. I was academically building myself into an occupation I was exceptionally good at, but I lost interest when I began to question my motivations for doing it. I didn’t have a good answer, so I stopped to figure myself out. I think examining the tethers of your past is a good starting point, as suggested by Nathan. In my case, I was driven to excel in my chosen field due to pressure from family, church, and society to succeed. Not because I was particularly passionate about media production, I was just good at it. Additionally, I felt the need to impress the people in my life. I believe this is a heart-wrenchingly difficult position; feeling that you have to please everyone to be considered valuable. I know that for myself, this people-pleasing attitude must cease and honesty needs to rise to the forefront of my motivation. I think my other responses may have indirectly touched on some of the points you raised here, but I wanted to express my thanks to you for taking the time to reply. Like you, I also needed to begin consistently applying honesty in my interactions with other people. Maybe people-pleasing and social withdrawal are simply two different responses to the same basic demand of letting other people determine your value.
Just Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 1) I've noticed that novelty will give me an artificial enthusiasm for just about any new academic program or job that I try, but within a few weeks this dies. This is probably an extremely common pattern, so I'm not sure if this is useful information or if it means anything. 2) Maybe moving to a larger center, finding like-minded people, and finding employment (even if part time) would do me good. Being back in undergrad feels like a shame-inducing trip to Never-Never Land. 3) Possibly it's because I grew up in a fairly traditional household where a man's worth was mostly determined by his role as a reliable and stoic breadwinner. 4). Long standing social isolation and emotional shutdown prior to age 18 is what I can remember of my home life. I am still working through this anger at being drugged and emotionally abandoned throughout those years. There seems to be a persistent effort to assign diagostic labels: AD(H)D, aspergers, social anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder. For a long time, I internalized these labels and interpreted them to mean that I was grossly defective, which was something shameful I had to hide due to the risk of semi-permanent social ostracism and professional failure. Being persistently ignored by peers in elementary, middle, and high school did not help to dispel this belief. I no longer consciously believe that I am defective, but I am sure that these beliefs still have some presence in my unconscious. 5) Yours may be the most challenging of all these posts to respond to, just in the difficulty of some of the questions that you raise. 6) If we weren't surrounded by damaged people who place numerous "no go" areas in our daily conversations, would we not live in a free society? 7) Maybe people-pleasing and social withdrawal are simply two different responses to the same basic demand of letting other people determine your value. 1) It's incredibly common -- being the jack-of-all-trades is a very human thing. Consider the enormous amount of rural living in our very recent past as a species. Every member of the house had to play the roles of doctor, farmer, carpenter, tailor, etc. The division of labor, while letting the best of their trade shine, has taken away alot of the old self-reliance that came with varied interests. As i'm sure you know, some are just programmed to have their minds wander to new things. These were the people who had food stores for the winter, a reliable house, well-made clothes, etc. The problem is with our, cooky cutter "stare at the chalkboard and shutup" education, this personality isn't tended to and allowed to develop, in fact it's worse -- we drug the kids into submission. "These are the times that fry mens souls" (i can't remember who said that). It's no suprise to me to read that you were also put on similar medications as a child. 2) Like you mentioned, the induced-shame is more than likely allowing others to determine your value. I doubt any shame would be around if you had a big billboard on your back that said, "I have a Masters in Chemistry, I'm probably alot smarter than you". Like I mentioned earlier, any shred of self-confidence we have in ourselves comes from meaningful relationships with others. Problem is, we have chosen the path in life many others don't care to tread, and it's impossible to establish a meaningful relationship with someone you'd consistently disagree with. Is there any Libertarian/AnCap clubs on campus? 3) I just liked this sentence, it really hit home with me. 4) Just incredible insight into yourself. Have you considered being a writer? - you're really good at it. 5) I'm curious, which question in particular? 6) I couldn't agree more. The self-imposed conversational barriers are what sadly take away from meaningful relationships. I could only imagine it has so much to do with the situation you described at home, which I also imagine is pretty common throughout the world -- mine included. I know Stef has done great videos on the subject of the disposable and emotionless archetypal male 7) Good point. It's amazing how so many facets of our behavior have common origins. This is what fascinates me about psychology, the many grand and subtle ways violence manifests in our lives All things considered, I think you're an incredibly intelligent person with a real keen sense of personal development. I truely hope you stick to your plans of psychiatry, as I think someone on the receiving end of one your sessions could benefit greatly from your words. You mentioned your recent change in worldview is a probable source of your anxiety, and I couldn't agree more. It's a total shock to the system when you recognize the world we used to live in was so dominated by fear and fiction, I can't help but think of the scene in The Wizard of Oz when Dorothy steps into Oz, and it's this beatiful colorfull paradise. Looking back on what sounds like a pretty grim past after your mind has been set free and outgrown the yoke of childhood can, and SHOULD, be difficult. It should be ripe with that fleeting, momentary anxiety that lets you know, this is what life USED to be -- what life doesn't have to be anymore. To me it's the best sign of progress one could hope for. And, in your case, to me it sounds like just that. The anxiety and apathy you're feeling are just momentary glimpses of what life used to be, and it sounds like you're at the right stage in life to see through that old degrading veil
In the belly of the beast Posted November 27, 2013 Author Posted November 27, 2013 1) It's incredibly common -- being the jack-of-all-trades is a very human thing. Consider the enormous amount of rural living in our very recent past as a species. Every member of the house had to play the roles of doctor, farmer, carpenter, tailor, etc. The division of labor, while letting the best of their trade shine, has taken away alot of the old self-reliance that came with varied interests. As i'm sure you know, some are just programmed to have their minds wander to new things. These were the people who had food stores for the winter, a reliable house, well-made clothes, etc. The problem is with our, cooky cutter "stare at the chalkboard and shutup" education, this personality isn't tended to and allowed to develop, in fact it's worse -- we drug the kids into submission. "These are the times that fry mens souls" (i can't remember who said that). It's no suprise to me to read that you were also put on similar medications as a child. 2) Like you mentioned, the induced-shame is more than likely allowing others to determine your value. I doubt any shame would be around if you had a big billboard on your back that said, "I have a Masters in Chemistry, I'm probably alot smarter than you". Like I mentioned earlier, any shred of self-confidence we have in ourselves comes from meaningful relationships with others. Problem is, we have chosen the path in life many others don't care to tread, and it's impossible to establish a meaningful relationship with someone you'd consistently disagree with. Is there any Libertarian/AnCap clubs on campus? 3) I just liked this sentence, it really hit home with me. 4) Just incredible insight into yourself. Have you considered being a writer? - you're really good at it. 5) I'm curious, which question in particular? 6) I couldn't agree more. The self-imposed conversational barriers are what sadly take away from meaningful relationships. I could only imagine it has so much to do with the situation you described at home, which I also imagine is pretty common throughout the world -- mine included. I know Stef has done great videos on the subject of the disposable and emotionless archetypal male 7) Good point. It's amazing how so many facets of our behavior have common origins. This is what fascinates me about psychology, the many grand and subtle ways violence manifests in our lives All things considered, I think you're an incredibly intelligent person with a real keen sense of personal development. I truely hope you stick to your plans of psychiatry, as I think someone on the receiving end of one your sessions could benefit greatly from your words. You mentioned your recent change in worldview is a probable source of your anxiety, and I couldn't agree more. It's a total shock to the system when you recognize the world we used to live in was so dominated by fear and fiction, I can't help but think of the scene in The Wizard of Oz when Dorothy steps into Oz, and it's this beatiful colorfull paradise. Looking back on what sounds like a pretty grim past after your mind has been set free and outgrown the yoke of childhood can, and SHOULD, be difficult. It should be ripe with that fleeting, momentary anxiety that lets you know, this is what life USED to be -- what life doesn't have to be anymore. To me it's the best sign of progress one could hope for. And, in your case, to me it sounds like just that. The anxiety and apathy you're feeling are just momentary glimpses of what life used to be, and it sounds like you're at the right stage in life to see through that old degrading veil You have my gratitude for your thoughtful responses. I've just realized a few things today. (a) As Larken Rose might say: I'm asking for permission to be free! The prospect of going into debt in order to do years of coursework of highly questionable value and relatedness to my interests, so that at the end of the day I have the state created clinical psychology guild's permission to learn the skills of interest to me, and then perhaps earn a modest living, is one of the primary contributors to my low motivation and frequent hopelessness about my future. My experiences in medical school, and my current difficulties with academic motivation in undergraduate psychology, are a rebellion against this slave mentality. (b) I'm not living my values. Although entry into the private sector looks terrifyingly difficult in current and future economic conditions, something in the back of my head is telling me: "You are not staying in school until your late 30s/early40s! It's time to go out into the world, add value, and get on with the business of living! Stop behaving like a resentful slave and take the actions needed to become as free as possible!" To this end, I'm looking at a few organizations focused on equipping free-market oriented people with the skills needed to break into the private sector: http://www.discoverpraxis.com/about/ If anyone reading this thread knows of similar organisations that could help me gain the skills to meaningfully contribute to a business, please let me know. A final realization: © Members of my family all work for the state or in state created guilds/cartels. Few if any of them enjoy(ed) their work. I have been told both implicitly and explicity that work and social relationships are supposed to be boring and routine, and that to think otherwise is a mark of immaturity. By a strange coincidence, most of my family members are unhappy and have fairly superficial relationships with one another and within their broader social networks. ----------------------------------- To answer the questions that you've posed: (2) Unfortunately there are no libertarian or ancap groups on campus, nor have I met any other people who appear to lean libertarian. Basically, this campus offers either "social justice" groups or the Intervarsity Christians. That's ok though, as I've decided over the past few days to leave this region, preferably within the next few weeks. (4) A handful of people have mentioned that I have some talent in writing. I've never engaged in creative writing in my spare time, but it is useful to know that it could be turned into a side gig in the future, or be brought to bear in employment as part of a broader skill set. Thanks for pointing that out. (5) These questions: First off, we will always see ourselves in others, the whole friend vs foe biological hard-wiring is tough to overcome. Secondly, we will always blame other people for what we're guilty of ourselves. ... Have you considered your outlook on others as a place to start? When's the last time you had a meaningful conversation with someone which wasn't "tedious trivia"? Are you "emotionally drained"? Recognize too that you can't lack the will to change and expect an overnight cure from your therapist. I'm not entirely sure to what extent my outlook on others is justified, and to what extent it is a defense and/or a result of my upbringing within an emotionally dishonest and emotionally isolated family. In the past few weeks, I've been trying to be more curious and open with other people, but it usually feels like a somewhat aggressive process of yanking teeth from their minds. Part of my current social frustrations may simply be due to ~10 year age gap with most other people around me over the past few weeks. I'm certainly not the only member of Freedomain Radio to complain of social isolation and the frustrations of interacting with most people, although examining the social difficulties of this community can be a chicken or egg question: Did we "rebel" against conventional thinking, partly due to unsatisfying social relationships, or does our unconventional thinking lead to greater difficulties in finding satisfying social relationships? (6) That video on "How a Man's Heart is Murdered" was excellent. It's somewhat comforting, in a way, to know that at least some of the social difficulties experienced by so many men are the result of gender-based conditioning from the culture(s) we were born into.
NeoEclectic Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 All I read from the OP was "I live a life of opportunity and choose to squander it". I don't know anyone that can just stand up and say I'm going to college, then a PHD, I change my mind a Masters degree, maybe I just want to crap all that away, I'm going to be this, I change my mind to that, no I change my mind again, gonna be a doctor, nope changed my mind again. Anyhow, you're barking up the wrong tree. Try finding fulfillment in places that don't involve any of the things you've mentioned because clearly it's not in any of those. Try picking up welding. You might find that to be more engaging.
Mishelle Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 I've know lots of students with similar issues of indecisiveness and doubt. How did your therapy appointment go? I was noticing how your interests are really varied--it's not often I see a student with skills and interests in both the sciences and foreign languages. Have you thought about this before? What in particular draws you to each of your interests? What about working with people vs. working alone? Have you ever read the book "What color is your parachute?" -- really good one for streamlining professional capacities and direction. Good luck!
Just Posted November 29, 2013 Posted November 29, 2013 hey belly I read your response, my internet is real spotty right now and keeps crappin out. I'll post back soon
cynicist Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 It's interesting to me that you would go from being drugged by your parents (on SSRIs, ugh) to wanting to become a psychiatrist. I mean I don't think you would have to go to medical school and learn about psychiatry before realizing they were ineffective, you had personal experience! And you mentioned your mom speaking positively of them, have you tried talking to her about why she (and your father) allowed you to be put on these meds? Was going to school for this stuff a way to excuse what your parents did, possibly by inflicting it on others? (not consciously, of course) It could also have been an unconscious way of getting you to recognize the truth of what occurred for you. Or did you think it would bring value to you in the eyes of others? Obviously I don't know your history, I just wanted to put some ideas out there that might dredge up some feelings, since I don't think it's a coincidence that you chose that particular path. Add the recent major life changes detailed in my original post, and sprinkle with major lifelong social and emotional isolation, and you've got yourself a potential recipe for cynicism and some mild paranoia towards other people. Maybe it's a superiority complex as a defense. The isolation is hard, and something I'm struggling with as well. I'm sorry you are going through this. On a brighter note, I actually had a good conversation with my mother today over brunch. I've been gradually introducing her to some of the topics discussed on FDR, so there's some hope yet. The same goes for one of my classmates in my current psychology courses. There is a small shard of optimism and progress here that could grow with time. What are you doing that for? If you think she is redeemable why aren't you talking to her about how miserable you were and the loneliness you feel? I mean you are say you are angry about the emotional abandonment but you are talking to your mother about philosophy? This is mildly irritating because it strikes me as avoidance. I usually get the sense that I am directing the therapist in the manner of an intelligent puppet, rather than collaborating with a professional who can give me insight. I never got that sense of being a puppeteer trying to coax greater initiative out of a puppet when talking to Stef. Maybe it means I have a secretly controlling personality or mild delusions of grandeur? I honestly don't know at this point in time. I certainly used to alternate between trying to exercise OCDish levels of control through various routines, and at other times going along with whatever. I had thought that I had left this behind me 5+ years ago. Sounds like you are manipulating your therapists. It may be because you don't trust or respect them and feel a need to test their ability. You are an excellent writer and clearly intelligent, it's likely to me that you would not accept treatment from someone that you didn't consider to be your equal, or at the very least an expert in their field. It could be grandeur or a desire to control others, but it may also be defense mechanisms that you've built up throughout your life. I've been manipulative in the past but it was more about trying to protect a vulnerable part of myself rather than exercise power over others, for example.
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