Death and Religion

[Existing Alternatives]

I feel that religions (particularly Christianity) play an important role in consoling people at the time of death of a loved one. They provide a sense of hope that “this isn’t the end, but merely a beginning of something better”. In absence of this, death becomes an abrupt end of the relationship. How does one cope?

 

I recently lost my father. We were a fairly a-religious family, so there was no sermon or service of any kind at his funeral. Tears were shed, kind words were said about his life, nail it down and off to worms you go. The end. There is no comfort or comfort-ing.

 

This being the first loss in my adult life, I was not quite prepared for what’s next. What is next? I almost wish for “he is with angels now” kind of bs.

[Wuzzums]

I liked how Hitchens puts it. Life is like a party, and when you die you must leave but the party goes on without you. But if there's life after death then the party goes on forever and you can never leave, and the Big Guy upstairs insists that you have a good time.

 

Or how Mark Twain puts it: "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience..."

[Existing Alternatives]

These quotes seem to apply to the person who is dying, not the ones losing a loved one. My question is where do those left behind get comfort from. In the religious example, it’s the “better place” story, but what’s there in absence of it?

[Wuzzums]

Hmm, I get comfort from knowing there's an end to things, the other scenario simply terrifies me. Grief also has an end.

When someone you care about passes away they'll leave a hole in your life. I don't know why people say that believing in an idyllic afterlife gives them comfort, because the hole in your life, this life, is still there regardless. You're still gonna have to deal with the loss even though you think it's temporary. If faith brings comfort to people then funerals would be full of joy and laughter. So yeah, in the absence of religion the loved ones left behind get comfort from the same place the believers do.

[Lians]

I'm really sorry to hear about your loss. I don't have an answer for you, but I can share some of my thoughts.

 

The question isn't about what you should substitute for heaven and angels, but why you need a substitute in the first place. Grieving is, of course, perfectly healthy, natural and even necessary. However, since you brought up this topic with reference to religion, I assume there might be something more to what you're experiencing.

 

To me, "he's in a better place now," always implied that living was torturous for the deceased person. Deep down, we all know there's nothing beyond earth's cold embrace. One of religion's characteristic traits is that it always tries to invent mythological narratives that explain away legitimate discomfort and pain on the part of the believers.

 

Your feelings could be there for any number of reasons and it's important that you listen and stay with them. Distracting yourself with the supernatural is, in my opinion, counter productive. If things get bad, it might be worth talking to a therapist.

[Existing Alternatives]

Hmm, I get comfort from knowing there's an end to things, the other scenario simply terrifies me.

 

That's a good point.

 

If faith brings comfort to people then funerals would be full of joy and laughter. So yeah, in the absence of religion the loved ones left behind get comfort from the same place the believers do.

 

I always wondered about that. They should be, right?

I'm really sorry to hear about your loss.  

Thanks.

Your feelings could be there for any number of reasons and it's important that you listen and stay with them. Distracting yourself with the supernatural is, in my opinion, counter productive.

 

You are absolutely right. I kind of lost track of my actual feelings. I guess, subconciously that is what I am doing right now. At the same time, I am wondering if there is some value in the supernatural way of thinking.

[Lians]

You are absolutely right. I kind of lost track of my actual feelings. I guess, subconciously that is what I am doing right now. At the same time, I am wondering if there is some value in the supernatural way of thinking.

 

There's value in the supernatural approach. I have not doubt about that given its popularity. However, as with anything, you have to ask: Value compare to what? Every time you use mythology as the go-to solution to a problem, you get increasingly more disconnected from your genuine experiences. It's very dangerous to choose short-term solutions over long-term sustainability.

 

Another reason why you decided to focus on religion might have something to do with your dad's relationship with religion and the way you experienced it as a kid. I can come up with many possibilities and I'll probably still be off the mark because you're the one that has all the knowledge. This is where RTR-ing with yourself comes in handy. Stay curious, don't suppress the emotions and don't accept trivial answers. You'll know when you stumble on the right answer/s. I can guarantee you that.

[Existing Alternatives]

 Every time you use mythology as the go-to solution to a problem, you get increasingly more disconnected from your genuine experiences. It's very dangerous to choose short-term solutions over long-term sustainability.

 

I like this. This is a very valuable point.

 

 Another reason why you decided to focus on religion might have something to do with your dad's relationship with religion and the way you experienced it as a kid.

 

Focus on religion is easy. The funeral took place in Russia, which is currently a very religious country. The funeral home had a gigantic cross in there (and in general looked like a church), we were asked repeatedly where is the wooden cross to put on the grave, people asked about a choir, a minister, etc. So, there was a weird gap during the proceedings where religion would normally fit in.  

[fridolutin]

It seems atheism didn’t caugth up with religious rituals, the no ritual approach seems to leave an empty space.

 

Science does not fill the gap with clear answers so many of us are in an in between unconfortable position.

 

The question is who between science and religion are providing relief for those affected by death of their relatives ?  Reason is in conflict with emotions

[Existing Alternatives]

 

It seems atheism didn’t caugth up with religious rituals, the no ritual approach seems to leave an empty space.

 

Science does not fill the gap with clear answers so many of us are in an in between unconfortable position.

 

The question is who between science and religion are providing relief for those affected by death of their relatives ?  Reason is in conflict with emotions

 

 

I agree, that's the issue, but what's the solution?

 

Additional risk to this is many people who are on the fence with the whole faith question are more likely to slide right back into the religious embrace as opposed to reason's void...

[fridolutin]

I think the absence of answers about death and afterlife is lacking in our rational and Cartesian societies. It amplifies emotions related to loss in a way they don’t and can’t find any relief. 

 

Science does not have better answers than religious beliefs in that domain. 

 

Irrational beliefs can act as mental placebos to temper emotions where rational scientific solutions such as pills for depression have bad side effects. Psychologists and psychiatrists on the other side are very expensive, the solution often brings other problems. 

 

The negative aspect of the rational mind is that it becomes incapable of using those simple, easily available and effective  methods. That type of mental attitude is reluctant to hypnosis and  its individual form auto-hypnosis, the capacity to dissipate strong emotions with personalized mental placebos. 

 

I’m curious about the way you explain death to your children, knowing that telling them there is nothing after life is as odd and uncertain than saying there is something. 

 

One of the Taoist ways of seeing death is looking at the global figure of existence instead of the moment of death as a significative event. They say I did not felt the loss before I knew him or her, so I shouldn’t feel it since he or her is gone. 

[Existing Alternatives]

 

Science does not have better answers than religious beliefs in that domain. 

 

Irrational beliefs can act as mental placebos to temper emotions where rational scientific solutions such as pills for depression have bad side effects. Psychologists and psychiatrists on the other side are very expensive, the solution often brings other problems. 

 

That's the part I struggle with: science is quite, but the religion offers you this insane carnival of multiple virgins and what-not. Which one would a "rational" person prefer?

 

 

The negative aspect of the rational mind is that it becomes incapable of using those simple, easily available and effective  methods. That type of mental attitude is reluctant to hypnosis and  its individual form auto-hypnosis, the capacity to dissipate strong emotions with personalized mental placebos.  

 

I am not sure I got which 'simple, available, effective methods' you are referring to?

 

I’m curious about the way you explain death to your children, knowing that telling them there is nothing after life is as odd and uncertain than saying there is something. 

 

That part is surprisingly easy. Earlier this year we lost great-grand-father and mother, and my 4-yo was very cool about it. My wife tried the whole "angels" shpiel, but his response was "oh, I get it, they are dead." So, yeah, easy...

[bootoo]

I feel that religions (particularly Christianity) play an important role in consoling people at the time of death of a loved one. They provide a sense of hope that “this isn’t the end, but merely a beginning of something better”. In absence of this, death becomes an abrupt end of the relationship. How does one cope?

 

I recently lost my father. We were a fairly a-religious family, so there was no sermon or service of any kind at his funeral. Tears were shed, kind words were said about his life, nail it down and off to worms you go. The end. There is no comfort or comfort-ing.

 

This being the first loss in my adult life, I was not quite prepared for what’s next. What is next? I almost wish for “he is with angels now” kind of bs.

 

 

Sorry for your loss. I lost my father 5 years ago to Cancer

 

I feel terrible for you that you feel 'thats it' and feel like you'd be comforted by iron age fiction

 

A very interesting line of inquiry may be to look at 'what' you consider your father to be, is he the stream of consciousness that he developed over his lifetime that you shared with him? Or is he 13.8 billion years of the universe doing its thing? how much of your father was his conscious actions or interactions with you and how much was he all the parts that are now going back into all the systems that create and sustain the universe and the planet?

 

Science is not only much more comforting, its much more liberating 

 

Good luck!

[Existing Alternatives]

Sorry for your loss. I lost my father 5 years ago to Cancer

 

Thank you and the same goes out to you.

 

I feel terrible for you that you feel 'thats it' and feel like you'd be comforted by iron age fiction

 

My argument here is that the "iron age fiction" does seem to provide comfort to some, whereas no such comforting exist in the "science land". It is "science" who says "thats it," religion however attempts to dress it up a little.

 

Btw, I'm not arguing for the "fiction," just trying to find some sign of comfort in absence of it.

 

A very interesting line of inquiry may be to look at 'what' you consider your father to be, is he the stream of consciousness that he developed over his lifetime that you shared with him? Or is he 13.8 billion years of the universe doing its thing? how much of your father was his conscious actions or interactions with you and how much was he all the parts that are now going back into all the systems that create and sustain the universe and the planet?

 

Why would I care? I wont be around for billions of year and neither would he. You see, I dont know about all this planetary stuff and streams of consciousness, but I do know, that someone who I could have a nice chat with is now gone forever.

 

Also, does it not sound a bit religious-y? "Stream of consciousness," etc...

[bootoo]

sounds very religious-y requires either decades of study and testing, or faith in those studies and tests and trust in the prophets that spread the good word!

 

so before he was your father he was one of your grandfathers cells and one of your grandmothers cells

 

before he was either of these cells he was atoms created in a star, which exploded and spread out through space before coming back together in the form of a planet which eventually gave rise to your grandparents, and the 2 cells that became your father

 

before he was the atoms in the star he was fields of energy

 

For a while he held the form of a human, but most of the time he is busy doing everything else

 

Have you played the association game? what do you think you are? if you didn't have your arm any more, would you still be yourself? how about both arms and legs, would you still be you? what if you lost your memories, or your ability to form more memories? You can play this game out and arrive at some interesting conclusions - can make things like death and change a little easier to process and live with

[Existing Alternatives]

sounds very religious-y requires either decades of study and testing, or faith in those studies and tests and trust in the prophets that spread the good word!

 

so before he was your father he was one of your grandfathers cells and one of your grandmothers cells

 

before he was either of these cells he was atoms created in a star, which exploded and spread out through space before coming back together in the form of a planet which eventually gave rise to your grandparents, and the 2 cells that became your father

 

before he was the atoms in the star he was fields of energy

 

For a while he held the form of a human, but most of the time he is busy doing everything else

 

No, I get it. But why do I care about it now? I dont have any relationship with the stars and atoms and whatnot, but I did have a relationship with that human form, with memories. Or at least in the same way.

[bootoo]

Ah, theres the good news, learn about the relationship you do have with the stars and atoms and whatnot

 

When you can associate yourself with the universe, rather than just your body and your mind, it relieves needless suffering caused by neurotic thought traps

 

Neurotic though trap example: I will no longer be able to achieve the positive emotional states experienced when interacting with my father

 

If you could instead view the pain and suffering you feel as a measure of the quality of the relationship you had with your father there is no need to distract yourself from that suffering, you can proudly be with it, there is no need to go into the realms of irrationality and look to stories of angels to fill your time and make yourself feel better, just like when it hurts after a great work out - you can love the pain, and you can love the game, its completely OK to die, its completely fine to go back to being the universe! We have mostly been doing that this whole time anyway

[Existing Alternatives]

Ah, theres the good news, learn about the relationship you do have with the stars and atoms and whatnot

 

When you can associate yourself with the universe, rather than just your body and your mind, it relieves needless suffering caused by neurotic thought traps

I’m with you on the atoms, but the rest does sound very religious-y: How associating yourself with god is different from associating yourself with universe, especially when you talk about not material but consciousness?

 

 

 If you could instead view the pain and suffering you feel as a measure of the quality of the relationship you had with your father there is no need to distract yourself from that suffering, you can proudly be with it 

 

And if you don’t feel anything, what does that tell you? That’s the piece that I am concerned about.

[fridolutin]

Are atheists basically closed to new concepts ?

 

I think many are searching for logic answers instead of the fairy tales presented as credible by main stream media. One of those fantasies is modern science, the promises and pretensions it has and the reality of its incapability to bring any solutions to the sinking ship of modern civilization. 

 

I’m not saying religions in general are the answers to existential questions like death and afterlife, I think that most of them were interpretations trying to render a basic teaching available to the mass of people.  With time it became a tool in the hands of dishonest clans searching profits on the back of naive populations. 

 

I’m trying to push the idea a very deep knowledge of life existed a long time ago, but the degree of abstraction of the science became out or reach for ordinary man. The relation of that science and how some wise men got to learn about it is in the history of many ancient civilizations as myths and legends. 

 

When I see modern science today, I see the same phenomena of degeneration of knowledge that occurred with the religions, the vulgarization of the principles so the ordinary man can learn about it.   Many are no more than technocrats using the gadgets but unaware of the effects. 

 

The ancient science I’m referring to is not complicated and rather simple, and that is what makes it superior to modern science and its complexity. But that simplicity is not what makes it available, It becomes incomprehensible to a vast majority because of the loss of connection to nature. There is a capacity of abstraction inherent to that connection modern man living in artificial environment lost.  I’ve named that capability fractal vision. 

 

Regarding death, the fractal,  it can be acknowledged in the fraction present in our everyday life, sleeping.   

 

Basically the root of modern science is from this old and primitive science I’m talking about, it is derived from it and that derivation is what makes it wrong. It would be like getting something out of context and pointing it out as real when it is only a portion of it. 

 

Because its partial and concentrated on the spectacular aspects it deceits human about the true consequences of its performance. Without any available alternatives modern science and attached beliefs is the contemporary religion.  

 

This would be comparable to the religious beliefs showing how paradise is much better than hell

emphasizing it to a point people will seek it frenetically in the restrained artificial middle they are confined in . Modern paradise is focused on material possessions and is controlled by oligarchic corporations, as the churches of the past controlled consumption by being in bed with governments. They acted as the cultural sector acts today, giving credit to the over consuming ways, the industry needs to maintain its position. Main stream artists are subsidized by the industry as long they help them selling their products. 

 

More it changes more it’s the same.