Is that too much to ask?

[ThoseWhoStayUofM]

I need relationship advise.  What I truly want, deep down, is for a girl to desperately want to spend time with me, and for me to desperately want to spend time with her.  I realize this requires, not only for her to like me in a very strong way, but for me to also like her, beyond appearance and social status.  My question is, is this too much to ask?  Am I looking for something that is beyond thought?  Is this an unrealistic expectation?I think this ultimately boils down to what everybody wants, consciously or subconsciously.  I think that, in the U.S., we have so many divorces because women and men are raised so fundamentally different that we can no longer relate to eachother on a level that results in this kind of mutual longing for the company of the other.  Women are so fundamentally different from men, due to environmental factors in early childhood, that neither gender can relate on such a fundamental level that we truly love eachother.  I hope that I'm wrong... but I have not come close to finding this thing that I am looking for and I fear that I will never find it.  I am afraid it does not exist.The sad thing is that I have found this in other men.  I love spending time with them.  What is sad about this is that I'm not gay.  My sexual attraction is only for the female form.  I envy homosexuals.  I envy what they have... how they can relate.

[Wuzzums]

Firstly ask yourself, what are you looking for in a woman? And what is said woman looking for in a man?

[ThoseWhoStayUofM]

Firstly ask yourself, what are you looking for in a woman? And what is said woman looking for in a man?

All I am looking for in a woman is:1) She is fun to be around2) She strongly desires to be around meMy problem is that there are very few girls that are actually fun to be around.  They gossip, are concerned with fashion, like watching stupid television shows like "Keeping up with the Kardashians" or "Say Yes to he Dress", are unable or unwilling to relate to me in any way, and they often have very superficial and dominant expectations of how a "real man" is supposed to act or behave.There are also very few girls that actually want to be around me.  Most women are looking for nothing more than social status and wealth.  They seriously don't give a damn about me, as a person.

[ribuck]

You need to hang out where the non-shallow females hang out. In my younger days, I was an active member of a caving club. None of the females in the caving club were interested in television, fashion, or celebrities.

 

The only problem was ... there weren't very many of them compared to the number of males.

[Wuzzums]

I'm in the same boat, as are most of us I think. I've always said that if being gay is a choice then all of us would've made the switch. Stefan's advice would be that you find and join social activities which you enjoy, that will raise the chances of finding someone with similar interests... finding common ground and all that. That's what enjoying someone's company really boils down to. But like you said, finding someone of the opposite sex with similar interests is like trying to date a Chinese girl and you don't speak Chinese.

 

What I noticed is that people get married left and right, but seldom have I seen a couple with the same interests that are not limited to sex, material gain and complaining about their jobs or life in general. So don't panic, there's no party out there that you're missing.

[LovePrevails]

"Dad, how do I find the right woman?"

 

"Son, don't forget about finding the right woman, focus on becoming the right man."

 

I need relationship advise.  What I truly want, deep down, is for a girl to desperately want to spend time with me, and for me to desperately want to spend time with her.  I realize this requires, not only for her to like me in a very strong way, but for me to also like her, beyond appearance and social status.  My question is, is this too much to ask?  Am I looking for something that is beyond thought?  Is this an unrealistic expectation?

 

No, you can have a relationship like this, but they don't materialize they have to be cultivated

the girl I am seeing is always keen to spend time with me whenever she gets the chance and sometimes she has got to worry in case I get bored of her - but I love spending time with her so I'm not bored,

 

but it didn't start out that way ---- when you first get spending to some they don't really know you that well,  they aren't emotionally invested in you, and while talking all about yourself might tell them thing about you it doesn't create that sense of attachment

In my experience women like to unwrap men bit by bit like a pass the parcel, you know the old saying "to be sexy leave a little to the imagination" .... they like a man that is sure of their own value and has goals, they love to see their man pursue his goals and root for him like his private cheerleader, especially if it is a very worthy goal in the service of others or helping people because they like to think the person they are with is someone kind

 

What opportunities do you have to meet women? it doesn't seem like you have a high opinion of them

I think its important to be very curious and ask interesting and unexpected questions to get to know them before expecting them to want to get to know you, I find if I am speaking to a woman I have just met and I am just asking questions to get to know them then I am leading the interaction, after a while she turns it around and starts trying to get to know me (or if she doesn't the whole conversation I probably won't be interested in spending much time with her - unless of course I find all her answers fascinating.) Because I am leading the interaction by my questions I don't have to talk about "Gossip, fashion or stupid tv shows" --- but I do make an effort to find out what she is really interested in and passionate about because I like to hear what people are enthusiastic talking about! I will ask questions about her hobbies and interests and if she knows a lot about a subject I know nothing about then I will want to learn about it from her so I'll ask questions about it because that opens her up to talking about something she is really keen to talk about because she wants to share the knowledge. 

Even if she does really like some show I think is stupid I will ask her what she likes about it and get her to think about her answer, challenge her in a playful way.

Above all - have fun! It shouldn't be a serious business vetting people - more like a fun opportunity to talk to different people you don't know and learn about them and improve your social skills and confidence in yourself as a conversationalist.

 

I love speaking to strangers now. Yesterday I was out at a bar where my band was playing and a girl ordered a big Sundae so I sat beside her and asked if she had just broken up with her boyfriend or something - she took a minute to get the joke and then smiled and started a conversation with me. I was scared to start with such a cheeky comment but I wanted to do it anyway so I did! I knew she wouldn't be offended, but if she had been I just would have excused myself and got back to speaking to my friends. The main thing is I had fun speaking to her and she had fun speaking to me, I wasn't going for any romance because I have a (sort-of) girlfriend, but every opportunity makes you less scared of the world and more eager to interact with others.

 

Ok I hope this stuff is useful, not just a big rant!

[LovePrevails]

Oh I meant to add, no needs to be ends-orientated when taking the opportunity to talk to strangers - just get to know them and find out if they are someone you would be interested in talking to more - there doesn't have to be attraction - girls have female friends! It's worth having some female new friends yourself maybe if they get to know you well and think you are a great catch but not to their taste or they are not single they can set you up with a girlfriend, or at least introduce you to one another.

[In the belly of the beast]

I need relationship advise.  What I truly want, deep down, is for a girl to desperately want to spend time with me, and for me to desperately want to spend time with her.  I realize this requires, not only for her to like me in a very strong way, but for me to also like her, beyond appearance and social status.  My question is, is this too much to ask?  Am I looking for something that is beyond thought?  Is this an unrealistic expectation?I think this ultimately boils down to what everybody wants, consciously or subconsciously.  I think that, in the U.S., we have so many divorces because women and men are raised so fundamentally different that we can no longer relate to eachother on a level that results in this kind of mutual longing for the company of the other.  Women are so fundamentally different from men, due to environmental factors in early childhood, that neither gender can relate on such a fundamental level that we truly love eachother.  I hope that I'm wrong... but I have not come close to finding this thing that I am looking for and I fear that I will never find it.  I am afraid it does not exist.The sad thing is that I have found this in other men.  I love spending time with them.  What is sad about this is that I'm not gay.  My sexual attraction is only for the female form.  I envy homosexuals.  I envy what they have... how they can relate.

 

LovePrevails has given excellent advice on curiosity in conversations, and in having an open attitude towards people you meet.  It's still often hard to maintain this disposition consistently, so don't beat yourself up if you find it difficult to adopt this viewpoint.  If nothing else, try to turn it into a benign game of "picking the shallow people's brains".

 

Have you tried your luck with any non-Western women, especially the more traditional women open to dating outside of their own culture?  I've found many Chinese and East Indian women in particular to still be open to more old school courtship, with these women also tending to have less religious craziness associated with some other parts of the world.  It's potentially much easier to work with a mild-mannered Buddhist, Hindu, or atheist than a hardcore Christian or Muslim.

 

 

I'm in the same boat, as are most of us I think. I've always said that if being gay is a choice then all of us would've made the switch. Stefan's advice would be that you find and join social activities which you enjoy, that will raise the chances of finding someone with similar interests... finding common ground and all that. That's what enjoying someone's company really boils down to. But like you said, finding someone of the opposite sex with similar interests is like trying to date a Chinese girl and you don't speak Chinese.

 

What I noticed is that people get married left and right, but seldom have I seen a couple with the same interests that are not limited to sex, material gain and complaining about their jobs or life in general. So don't panic, there's no party out there that you're missing.

 

Good to know that there are other straight men on here who sort of envy the gay guys.  Of course, we know that homosexual individuals have their own struggles related to their sexual orientation.  Still doesn't stop us from wondering about some of the potential advantages.

 

Also agree with the observation on marriages.  There is a reason the divorce rate is north of 50%.

[LovePrevails]

Just a couple of clarification tips: if you go about asking questions don't make it sound like an interview or interrogation

 

you can break this up by pausing after an interest point is made and saying something liek "so you're telling me x.... hmmm that's interesting I always thought y"

the first part is to reflect back what you have heard, the second part is to give your own reflections on it

here is another example

"oh right I see what you mean, n... I never understood that before but when you put it like that I see your point"

or

"So you're saying x and you think y, but on the other hand : z"

 

this means you're not just asking questions, you're engaging critically with what they're saying you're not just an interviewer

 

another approach is to make assumptions about them and reflect them playfully,

so if the person says they are a lawyer you say "oh you must never stop reading,"

or "Oh my god that sounds brainy! I bet you were such a nerd at school, did you enjoy the book club?"

that's a good way to create rapport and find out more about them, "yes I like reading but I never really have the time before" or "you have no idea! I was such a rebel!!! but I finally straightened out"

 

you can also go for humour:

"Oh wow, I'm really interested in law... in fact I've got every single episode of Judge Judy on boxset"

this creates rapport and also avoids dead end conversations

 

don't let people keep talking about things they do not find interesting like their work! if they sound like they love it fine, if they sound like they hate it move on, give them an opportunity to talk about something they love.

 

Also remember all your good stories of fun, outrageous, or touching times - weird coincidences or ironic situations

personal story telling is key to getting to know people and feeling comfortable, the earlier on in the conversation the shorter your stories should be as you can't hold peoples attention span until they are very invested in the conversation

 

ok those are some useful communication skills

[_LiveFree_]

Wow, great stuff going on in here. I wanted to humbly add my half a cent to the conversation.

 

When you become knowledgeable and comfortable with who you are, the dynamics of finding someone to talk with reverses. Instead of finding someone to tag along with, your personality will become like a gravity well bringing into your orbit the right people. And you will be naturally curious about who you are attracting.

[DaisyAnarchist]

I think that, in the U.S., we have so many divorces because women and men are raised so fundamentally different that we can no longer relate to eachother on a level that results in this kind of mutual longing for the company of the other.  Women are so fundamentally different from men, due to environmental factors in early childhood, that neither gender can relate on such a fundamental level that we truly love eachother.  I hope that I'm wrong... but I have not come close to finding this thing that I am looking for and I fear that I will never find it.  I am afraid it does not exist.

 

 

There are a few questions that come to my mind that I think, if you are able to answer them or reflect on them, will help you.Can you be more specific as to how the genders are raised differently? 

 

I am also confused as to how you're going to "find this thing" that you are looking for when you haven't been able to name the thing.

 

Would connection be the right word? You want to find a girl that you connect with? 

 

Also, perhaps you have some specific virtues or traits in mind that you're looking for in a partner? Like honesty? You said you want someone that desperately wants to spend time with you. But that's not a specific trait, right? I would think (and I could be wrong) wanting to spend time with each other comes after you have established that you and your partner meet each other's values. I think looking for someone who merely wants to spend time with you and is fun needs a stronger base on which to rest, like virtue. Or just something more specific to that person. 

 

Those are my thoughts. Best of luck to you.

[LovePrevails]

One more thing I meant to add,

 

Don't assume that just because people talk about or begin with superficial topics tht they are superficial people,

A lot of people sick to those to build rapport and catch your general vibe because they are "safe topics" while deep down they are very thirsty for some real human contact

Perhaps they want to know you before they open up a little , want to know you are trustworthy, they may have had adverse experiences when they tried to talk about deep stuff, or they may feel those are personal topics they consider intimate to share with close people

[NeoEclectic]

"Women are superficial and they have unrealistic expectations."

 

Bullshit.

 

No more unrealistic expectations than a man that dreams of dating a Victoria's Secret model.

 

All I ever hear are single, lonely, men whining about how women suck and they want things that cannot be provided by the average joe. Yet strangely these same women are dating, have boyfriends, while it's highly unlikely they're all dating this socially perceived handsome, rich guy, and provider of all materialistic desires. Not all women could possibly be dating and marrying this type of mythical man unless it's the same man.

 

If it were the case that's what women want then how do you explain a preponderance of women that appear to be attracted to complete losers that can't even afford to buy a stick of bubblegum?

 

What I find to be more true is that the man in question is so far removed from perceived social norms that they're not found to be attractive by the typical female. Or that the man in question doesn't put in the time and energy into himself to make himself more marketable to women.

 

Not all women are cut from the same cloth and there are probably an equally sized population of socially awkward women as there are men. It's just a matter of spending time weeding through the rest to finally come across that person.

 

What I find that works across the board is confidence. I've dated women, from different walks of life, and have been told on several occasions that while dating me I've changed what they like in a man. Or rather altered their sense of what they found appealing and attractive about men.

 

To humor the argument that women are materialists and only seek a man that can provide them with superficial things I'll say this: A woman won't deny her own heart.

 

Maybe she starts out that way but she can be inspired to think differently, or become more open minded, if the right man was involved. I've been down that road myself on a couple of occasions.

 

If you're having trouble finding dates look towards yourself first. If you're not willing to change anything about yourself then just keep looking and wait for that "one" which will come around sooner or later.

[Guest Exceptionalist]

"Dad, how do I find the right woman?"

 

"Son, don't forget about finding the right woman, focus on becoming the right man."

 

 

Yeah, that's all it needs in this gynocentric western part of the world, tails which wiggles with the dog. Daddy is a simpleton, he should have told little Johnny that a relationship is like a restoration project, you don't start with an old banger without substance. Do the Stef first and proceed from there. You don't improve self knowledge to be a tail that wiggles with the dog, that's a means to the end, at best.

 

 

All I ever hear are single, lonely, men whining about how women suck and they want things that cannot be provided by the average joe. Yet strangely these same women are dating, have boyfriends, while it's highly unlikely they're all dating this socially perceived handsome, rich guy, and provider of all materialistic desires. Not all women could possibly be dating and marrying this type of mythical man unless it's the same man.

 

 

How pathetic, they should have more self-respect instead being a tail that wiggles with the dog. Those entitled women aren't the right ones to begin with, even though their approach ends up being unrealistic.

 

What I find to be more true is that the man in question is so far removed from perceived social norms that they're not found to be attractive by the typical female. Or that the man in question doesn't put in the time and energy into himself to make himself more marketable to women.

 

 

What a shame to not cater to irrational and questionable "social norms" these days. Be yourself or emprove yourself and look for a matching partner or someone with qualities.

 

To humor the argument that women are materialists and only seek a man that can provide them with superficial things I'll say this: A woman won't deny her own heart.

 

 

Briffaults law applies to all mammals, no matter how much you denial the materialistic tendency.

 

If you're having trouble finding dates look towards yourself first. If you're not willing to change anything about yourself then just keep looking and wait for that "one" which will come around sooner or later.

 

 

Translation, "If you have trouble finding dates, blame you or look for an unrealistic ideal." Nope, I'd suggest to look for the truth instead, that includes you necessarily.

[In the belly of the beast]

One more thing I meant to add,

 

Don't assume that just because people talk about or begin with superficial topics tht they are superficial people,

A lot of people sick to those to build rapport and catch your general vibe because they are "safe topics" while deep down they are very thirsty for some real human contact

Perhaps they want to know you before they open up a little , want to know you are trustworthy, they may have had adverse experiences when they tried to talk about deep stuff, or they may feel those are personal topics they consider intimate to share with close people

 

Fair point about not being too quick to label people as shallow.

 

Do you think that a large minority of people are work as hard as you do to establish rapport?  These everyday social situations usually feel like a one-way street to me.

[LovePrevails]

I wasn't given very good models of relationships in my childhood (my parents argued every day and my mum can't take criticism but criticised everyone constantly)

So I worked hard to improve my social skills and it took some time and effort but to be honest I absolutely love the results - I can usually very quickly build connection and rapport with strangers and I'm learning new things from them and from interacting with people all the time, (I now teach other people to improve their relationships, www.enrichyourlife.co is my website, if it's somethign you'd liek to pursue I'd definitely be happy to give you "mates rates" or a first consultation free, although I don't want this to read as an advert.)

 

So I would probably say no, everyone else does not put in as much effort as I did - but now it is no longer an effort - the skills are an enjoyable part of who I am and I love expressing them

they are part of who I would have been in the first place if I had had really good models around me to begin with I imagine

 

yes, I did put in more effort, but the result is I have really good friends , I can talk to strangers without much anxiety about it, I empathise well with others and help them process difficult experiences, and they want to reciprocate by being a good companion in return and I really appreciate that! I also have reasonable choice with women, which I didn't in high school, I dated two other girls previously this year before getting together with the girl I am seeing now who is lovely and helping me a lot with my business and we can talk about everything, I am sensitive to her moods and she says things like "you can always tell when I'm sad" and she appreciates that I can read her and connect accordingly. She also says she likes to watch me in social situations ("work a room" as she puts it) because of the way I meet each person on their own level while still remaining true to myself.

 

So no, maybe everyone does not put as much effort in - some people are natural, and some people don't have as rich a social life, 

but the social life was won by developing my self in these ways, so I would say the development is worth the investment - it's your life! You deserve the best you can cultivate yourself to be willing to receive

the great thing about not being a "natural" is that  if you're a natural you may not ever open a book to discover deficits - in other words, if it's something you are willing to learn you can go a lot further than most people can in terms of being a good listener, empathiser, interesting conversationalist, opening people up to talking about more personal issues thus bringing you closer together, expressing your feelings and needs effectively so they are more likely to be met, giving criticism sensitively and receiving it well to understand why the other person is saying it, etc.

 

What are your reflections?

[ThoseWhoStayUofM]

I wasn't given very good models of relationships in my childhood (my parents argued every day and my mum can't take criticism but criticised everyone constantly)

So I worked hard to improve my social skills and it took some time and effort but to be honest I absolutely love the results - I can usually very quickly build connection and rapport with strangers and I'm learning new things from them and from interacting with people all the time, (I now teach other people to improve their relationships, www.enrichyourlife.co is my website, if it's somethign you'd liek to pursue I'd definitely be happy to give you "mates rates" or a first consultation free, although I don't want this to read as an advert.)

 

So I would probably say no, everyone else does not put in as much effort as I did - but now it is no longer an effort - the skills are an enjoyable part of who I am and I love expressing them

they are part of who I would have been in the first place if I had had really good models around me to begin with I imagine

 

yes, I did put in more effort, but the result is I have really good friends , I can talk to strangers without much anxiety about it, I empathise well with others and help them process difficult experiences, and they want to reciprocate by being a good companion in return and I really appreciate that! I also have reasonable choice with women, which I didn't in high school, I dated two other girls previously this year before getting together with the girl I am seeing now who is lovely and helping me a lot with my business and we can talk about everything, I am sensitive to her moods and she says things like "you can always tell when I'm sad" and she appreciates that I can read her and connect accordingly. She also says she likes to watch me in social situations ("work a room" as she puts it) because of the way I meet each person on their own level while still remaining true to myself.

 

So no, maybe everyone does not put as much effort in - some people are natural, and some people don't have as rich a social life, 

but the social life was won by developing my self in these ways, so I would say the development is worth the investment - it's your life! You deserve the best you can cultivate yourself to be willing to receive

the great thing about not being a "natural" is that  if you're a natural you may not ever open a book to discover deficits - in other words, if it's something you are willing to learn you can go a lot further than most people can in terms of being a good listener, empathiser, interesting conversationalist, opening people up to talking about more personal issues thus bringing you closer together, expressing your feelings and needs effectively so they are more likely to be met, giving criticism sensitively and receiving it well to understand why the other person is saying it, etc.

 

What are your reflections?

I don't really have any reflections except for a bit of skepticism.  Out of curiosity, and assuming you're a white guy, have you ever "worked a room" full of black people?  I should mention that I'm not skeptical of what you are saying about yourself.  I'm skeptical about how feasible it would be for me to do what you claim to do.  You talk about interacting with strangers, approaching them on their level while still staying true to yourself, as if it is a skill that you learned.  I'm skeptical in so far as I think this may be more of a talent that you've cultivated... a talent that you possess more, and that I lack to a certain extent.One thing about talent is that it doesn't always mean being the best at something.  It often means finding the most enjoyment in something, so the cultivation of that talent becomes free-time rather than work.  I don't enjoy talking to strangers.  I hate interviews.  I don't like being judged.  I've learned that people make strong opinions of others based on first impressions.  Another way to say this is, people irrationally judge others based on very little information.  After coming to this realization, I have since been very averse to first encounters with any person.  For me, meeting new people is a horrible affair.  It's interesting that I have no problem talking to complete strangers on the internet, when in real life I would never have this conversation with anyone.  The intuitive reason for this is because the internet provides anonymity for me, so none of you actually know who I am.  That isn't really the full picture.  If I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I wouldn't be harshly judged based on almost zero information, I would have no problem being identified by my full name and appearance.Why do you not experience this same anxiety?  The only way not to care seems to be a strain of sociopathy, where the opinions and judgments of strangers are assigned little to no value.  I'm not saying you're a sociopath, but rather you have learned to approach strangers as "prospective people" with thoughts and opinions that could matter in the future, and "actual people" who you've gotten to know and who have thoughts and opinions that do, in fact, actually matter to you.  If this is truly how you, either consciously or subconsciously, view the world, then I don't know if I want to lose my social anxieties.  I choose to see every person's thoughts and opinions as valuable, even if they are incorrect.