What does not having any friends say about you ?

[aFireInside]

I have been thinking about this topic lately . 

 

I have no friends and allot of free thinkers seem to be in the same place. 

We seem to justify it by saying everyone is a statist or a sheep ....etc

 

But I have been thinking, I want friends and I'm not picky but I still can't seem to make 

"good" ones. Like in the Tv shows --> Seinfeld, That 70's Show, Friends, etc... 

 

I have experience this when i was younger, So i have nostalgia and miss human contact. 

 

 

 

So are my question(s)...

 

Do people in this community ex post justify not having friends ? 

(I use to do this) 

 

And if so.. 

Does this mean I have to improve my social skills .. 

How ? 

If I have more self knowledge than others why can't I use that to help me ?????? 

[FattyWatt]

This is Watt (the one w/the pink hair)

 

Ivan, You CAN use your excess of self-knowlege to help you get friends

It's just hard & I'm sure you'll have to think ALOT.

 

In my opinion, I don't feel I'm very picky about friends, but I am an intellectual & lacking "good/close-friends" (aside from my relationship)---- I don't want this to be a justification; I just don't have a specific answer of "where to go to get close friends?"

 

Maybe....start having good conversations, that motivate people to keep coming back &talking to u?? That's one suggestion.

Good luck! & I'll b lookin at this thread for more people's input/answers.

[aFireInside]

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply . 

 

 

And yeah, that pretty much where Im at right now. I feel the same way . 

[Pepin]

Do people in this community ex post justify not having friends?

 

Perhaps if I am feeling down or going through some depression, but not really. I think a lot of the thoughts and feelings used to explain why you don't have any or many friends likely have some truth to them. As someone who has a high IQ and vast amounts of self knowledge, the possible circle of people you can really be yourself with diminishes greatly. It is kind of like speaking a different language, and it is very difficult for you and for others to understand each other, which makes connection rather impossible. Also I think many smart people recognize the emptiness in contained in most friendships and want something more substantive.

 

Does this mean I have to improve my social skills... How?

 

I'd say no, but it'll help in the game of luck and you're likely to find more friends if you do. Having social skills is a great way to get along and to be liked by people at work, which I think is worth the investment alone. Also, expanding your network is somewhat dependent on good social skills, and the larger the network, the greater the probability of finding one of those people you can really connect with. In a large way it is a demonstration of value and a way to show off your personality.

 

If you haven't had that much social interaction in your life and you had some unconscious desire to be isolated, you likely have to be aware that you putting out messages that tell people to leave you alone. If you talk to people and show off your personality, this counteracts it. If you are not very talkative, like a reflex, you will begin to send those "don't talk to me" signals out.

 

Practice with people who are forced to have a conversations with you, like cashiers, preferably not those locked in your basement. Be aware of how you are coming off and try to make a goal, like to make the person smile or laugh.

 

Talking to yourself when driving I think is a great way to get good at communicating clearly and sounding good while doing it. I'd advice you take the Stefan approach, where you attempt to describe a difficult abstract concept to a 7 year old in as many ways possible. Though you aren't likely to be doing that a whole lot, you really gain an ability to articulate your thoughts and ideas clearly and spontaneously, and if you ever do need to explain something complex you understand how to get it across effectively. Honestly, have conversations with yourself when you are driving.

 

Do some mirror work. Make expressions and do poses and try to get them down. People really like it when you can contort your face in a specific way, and some practice helps a lot. You can also test yourself by joking around with coworkers and see if they interpret it right, like if a coworker says "I didn't eat the last cookie", put on a skeptical expression. I think with people like us, we tend to forget to use our face a lot. Also, mirror work increases your ability to correctly interpret the expressions of others.

 

Realize that to some degree you are moving out of your comfort zone and expect to be uncomfortable.

 

Lastly, take a few seconds to understand the circumstance. In high school there is this odd sort of hierarchy and feeling of inferiority that makes socializing difficult. I am having a difficult time describing this in concrete, but it is talked about a lot by others and is somewhat of a trope, so I'll assume you know what I am talking about. At least in my experience, this is completely gone in the adult world. I find it about 100 times easier to talk to any random adult than it was to talk to somewhat at school, and adults are far far more forgiving of communication errors and nervousness. Of course there are the occasional jerks, but instead of being down on yourself after the encounter, you are more like "what a douche".

 

If I have more self knowledge than others why can't I use that to help me?

 

Help you what? Make good friends? It will. In a large way it is a sort of bad friend filter because you'll have a very difficult time liking people with high impassivity and little ability to self reflect. Like I said earlier, it is kind of language barrier, and you'll have a really tough time even understanding the person, let alone connect with them.

 

Also, in your post you said that you aren't picky, and I would say that you are but that you don't know it yet. I guarantee that most of the new people you will meet you won't want to be close friends with, which doesn't mean you find them intolerable, you may find the to nice and generally likable, but you really won't be wanting to hang out with the person very much.

 

Hope this helps.

[NeoEclectic]

I don't build my friendships on the basis of political, social, or religious beliefs. Base them on common interests and a shared desire for fun and companionship.

 

Only allow someone to build a relationship under the same premise. All else will fall into place.

 

If I were getting married that would be a different matter. Of course, we would have to have some common beliefs in stuff like that.

[Kevin Beal]

I'm not sure having no friends says anything about you necessarily.

 

I've had multiple times in my life where I had no friends. Most of my life in fact. That is people who care about you and you care about them, built enough trust to offer and highly value criticism, get together to do fun things etc.

 

It could be that you aren't in an environment where you can attract other virtuous people. It could mean you aren't jumping at enough opportunities. It could mean that you are sabotaging yourself. It could mean you are in a transition phase getting corrupt people out of your life and not finding that your existing relationships survive that.

 

In any event there are things you can do.

 

One thing that I think is important is that there really is something to this idea that most people are sheep, conformists and have no interest in true friendship. Most people only relate on the level of their false selves most of the time, and to stand committed to honesty is like holding a grenade that could blow up whatever exists of the relationship. (Often for the better).

 

So the fact that you don't have friends doesn't necessarily reflect badly on you. A guy in the middle of a die hard nazi, "kill all jews" kind of community, not having friends is actually a good sign.

 

The problem I see sometimes is a kind of fatalism that says that people unable to meet me where I am, and that sucks because it's both depressing and untrue. People are very capable of making virtuous true self decisions, they just choose often not to.

 

Sometimes people just need to see somebody else do it first before they try it. That was true for me prior to philosophy and self knowledge. By being our honest vulnerable true selves with people we show them that's it's possible. The people who respond negatively are doing you a favor by letting you know that they aren't interested. It's being a good salesman: find a no as quickly as you can.

 

Good people are very interested in courageous things like that and will be attracted to you and good things grow out of that.

 

Being a beacon of virtue.

 

*add

And you can always make connections with people in the community, and if they aren't local you can skype it up.

[Hugh Akston]

I have no friends other than my wife. I always thought it was due to a character flaw or a lack of social skills. I have grown greatly in these areas but I now understand that it is simply that very few people think like I do and it no longer bothers me. I do however like to do social things like going to the footy or dancing, as I do enjoy human interaction.

 

Something I have learned is to ask people about themselves, it seems to help in making a basic connection required for pleasant social interaction.

[Ancient Mariner]

I gradually lost contact with my college friends over the years. None of them were interested in self growth. They were more interested in going out on weekends to get wasted. It is very difficult to relate to people who have grown apart from you. 

 

I have lost some social skills in the process and there are times where I miss having people around me. However, anytime I feel down i remember the times i tried going back to talk to my college friends and how bored, empty and fake i felt around them. And, yes, there is always George Carlin to remind me:

 

 

And I am not even looking for people who are necessarily libertarians or anarchists. I just want people who are empathetic and truthful. It has been a several months since i stopped looking. So, in my case, certainly, it is not because of my libertarian ideals, but because i have somewhat given up.

 

Also, since I started taking my emotions more seriously (and doing journaling, dreams analysis and taking to my family about my childhood) I have gone and hide in my own cocoon and I tend to stay there for long periods of time and I only come back to the surface once in a while.

[Longshot]

When you are the only one that's real & your surrounded by fake people all the time there can never be a satisfying interaction. You don't like their bullshit & they despise the truth.

In my humble opinion.

[Kevin Beal]

It may also be worthwhile to start gaming groups in the community. There are a lot of people (myself included) who would enjoy getting together with people in the community to play some kind of game online.

 

Social skills are important to develop. We all want to be able to market ourselves, for all kinds of reasons, and getting together to get good feedback, show our battle scars, develop a greater sense of what it means to be a philosopher in a world of sophists. s'all good stuff.

 

Ideally, a community of philosophers should be the strongest of all communities.

 

There's a whole lot that we could do. There is reason for hope.

[Wesley]

It may also be worthwhile to start gaming groups in the community. There are a lot of people (myself included) who would enjoy getting together with people in the community to play some kind of game online.

 

This makes me wonder how good an FDR League of Legends (or something) game would be...

[aFireInside]

Wow, Thanks to everyone who replied. This helps allot!

Thanks for sharing your life experiences it really helps when other people sympathize 

and are in the same position as me . 

 

 

Kevin Beal I like the idea of making some kind of group outside of this community 

the problem arises when people live all over the country .. 

I think gaming or things like that can Help .. 

(since they are online) 

[nathanm]

Yeah, this is a tough subject for me.  I started with two great friends, added maybe a dozen in high school and college, lost most of those after school, leaving the same two friends afterwards but whom I rarely talk to anymore these days.  Both are married, one with kids, one without.  The more time that elapses without any contact with them the more odd it feels.  I could end it at any time with a phone call, but so could they.  I don't know who is at fault.  There's no fundamental problem, but in the past there has been some political friction.  I remember we watched the Michael Badnarik constitution class once upon a time (my first big step on the journey)  but it never went too far beyond that.  Even more odd is the thought of finding new friends, at my age it seems ridiculous.  That's probably a ridiculous thought too, but that's what I think.  Now I just "meet" cool people on the internet.  It's fine, but not the same.

 

Ever since pursuing libertarianphilosophical avenues I've grown even more isolated than I was before, which was considerable.  This is partly unavoidable because it redefines your world as being largely sick and corrupt and removing yourself from that line of thinking removes you from zillions of other people.  You can always revisit if you stick to talking about trivia, but it will never feel quite right.  It's almost like bizarro anarchy, but with relationships: Anfriendist=no friends=bad!  Minfriendist=little friends=good!

[aFireInside]

I remember stefan saying you can go into any Matrix as long as you know you are in a Matrix . (with self knowledge ) 

 

I think we all need human contact even if its a little and trivial . ( hobbies, etc.. ) 

[Kevin Beal]

Here is an awesome video from a call in show about taking an active role in finding worthwhile relationships

 

[Ancient Mariner]

This makes me wonder how good an FDR League of Legends (or something) game would be...

 

I have a love/hate relationship with video games. If there is something that can get the firefighters in my head to go wild is them. I recently came out of a month long period where League of Legends was in my head 24/7. I have stopped playing it regularly for some time now. And since the start of Season 4 i went back to play it a couple of times and I didn't feel that urge to play it constantly anymore.

 

Sometimes, I feel that the desire to play games online is to actually talk to people in some way or another. I've observed myself in the past 2 years (since I bought my XBox) that whenever i feel alone i go online and look for human contact but I am not 100% sure why that impulse to play games is not present in me all the time.

 

I would be interested in participating in a FDR video game community but I would have to be careful not to get dragged into playing games just to keep my mind busy.

[Stefanfan]

It is said that the older you get, the harder it is to gain new friends.

 

I would sign that.

 

Befriending requires some bit of humility (and personal input, essentially.)

[Jer]

Maybe....start having good conversations, that motivate people to keep coming back &talking to u?? That's one suggestion.

Good luck! & I'll b lookin at this thread for more people's input/answers.

I like this advice.

I've had many of the same thoughts as OP and in my case I think it's related to my F'd up childhood. Nobody really taught me how to be a good friend. I just listened to the Empathy podcasts and found them very helpful.

[Maritain]

Any reasonable sized city has chess meet ups, volleyball, pool leagues, bowling leagues, part time jobs that involve social interaction. You can join these and be socially inept as can be.  Gawd, there are even running groups now, though it's mainly for women because they like to turn normally solitary fitness regimes into social meet ups. Running a sub 40 min in a 10K is amazing according to them, which means they give no fucks about running.

 

Finding like minded people on FDR means moving to the top cities (NYC, LA, Chicago) or "different" cities like Portland.  The thing is that you really have to know your trade or be willing to start at the bottom of a union job(particularly in the transportation industry), both of which means a loss in productivity and pay in the short run. I have a hunch that most simply don't have the courage to move and find their tribe. 

 

I'm just saving my money and paying off the last of my student loans this year, then off to start a new life. Any asshole can find a nice girl and get a house and kids with an assortment of "friends" that you might see once a month.  But fuck that.  If the only friend you can confide in is your wife or girlfriend for the rest of your life, then holy shit, that fucking sucks.

 

Thank god that trucking is in demand across the country. 

[Mishelle]

 

 

Ever since pursuing libertarianphilosophical avenues I've grown even more isolated than I was before, which was considerable.  This is partly unavoidable because it redefines your world as being largely sick and corrupt and removing yourself from that line of thinking removes you from zillions of other people.  You can always revisit if you stick to talking about trivia, but it will never feel quite right. 

 

I liked this, I find it to be true as well.

 

I was extremely social up until my early 30s, looking from the outside, it was as you opened the convo, Ivan, like Friends or Seinfeld, we were, from the outside looking in, let's say -- attractive, stylish, travelers, always laughing, some quite rich, always about town, lots of parties, 'the cool crowd' etc.  Having been on the inside of these groups, I can tell you there is nothing of substance there. They are 'tribes" based on circumstance and location and propaganda and false intimacy.  Everyone is a caricature of himself and the least bit of emotional honesty brings collective wrath.  I've had 3 different groups of friends like this, yes certainly I see now a lot of it was me accepting this and attracting this, but I think comparing these groups to sit-coms was more spot on than you realize.

 

Now that I realize how true friendship should look, I have one friend left besides my hubby, and it's hard sometimes, I won't deny that, from one extreme to another.  But, once you 'outgrow' people, to spend time with them again is actually harder than being alone, imo.

 

When I feel sadness for my current isolation, I reframe it and tell myself another equally important truth: "Isn't it wonderful this solitude where I can really get to know myself and reach out to only those who really want to know me too.  What a great luxury it is to have that level of confidence, courage and resilience."

 

I have every intention and "faith" that I will attract a real tribe in time, my way.

[Connor]

I have one friend at school that I can have deep, honest conversations with, but I've been having cognitive dissonance over some of the "friends" I have through her.  I feel uncomfortable being my true self around them, and I'm confused as to why she enjoys their company.  Any time we are with one of these friends it also shuts off opportunities for me to connect with her.  I have been hesitant to bring honesty to these people because they are in many of my classes and are reliable and hardworking if I need to be in a group for a project.  I also don't have a lot of experience rocking the boat with people who are committed to illusions.

[Prairie]

Having been on the inside of these groups, I can tell you there is nothing of substance there. They are 'tribes" based on circumstance and location and propaganda and false intimacy. Everyone is a caricature of himself and the least bit of emotional honesty brings collective wrath. I've had 3 different groups of friends like this, yes certainly I see now a lot of it was me accepting this and attracting this, but I think comparing these groups to sit-coms was more spot on than you realize.

I only had limited experience with this, but I'd always get awful headaches being with groups of people for a few hours a week. I now more clearly see that I was always wanting particular kinds of interaction/attention in order to resolve trauma, and that it always seemed that it was just around the corner even though it was like a dry well. I imagine that others had a similar general relation to it, thinking they'd get some need met but since it was a free-for-all with little awareness of what people wanted, nobody got much out of it. Regardless, I'm pretty immune to the draw of social groups now, it being so easy to call to mind the experience and emptyness of it.

When I feel sadness for my current isolation, I reframe it and tell myself another equally important truth: "Isn't it wonderful this solitude where I can really get to know myself and reach out to only those who really want to know me too. What a great luxury it is to have that level of confidence, courage and resilience."

When I look at all the possible fates I could have been given, I am always thankful that I am not stuck in the social tar-pit that friendly/romantic relationships seem for most people. Also that I can keep myself occupied indefinitely with various creative projects and self-knowledge exploration.

[Mishelle]

Conner and Prairie, I appreciate your honest comments.

 

I've been in similar situations, Conner and I think this is an important and very difficult nuance to address, and for me is related to Stef's choice to Deefoo.  I hope this doesn't sound off-topic, but there have been one researcher that has helped me gain some insight here.  It's hard sometimes to post here what's helped me, because much of this community is quite rigorous as far as rational scientific standards, and maybe this would fall into pseudo-science.

 

Her name is Helen Fisher and she basically expands on a concept that I believe came originally out of one the main business schools, yes, it's a "personality type" sort of thing, big eye roll. Pay no attention that she does have a PhD and huge audience, gobs of research, etc.  But, it's about love, so scientists smirk.

 

According to her research, I'd guess this friend of yours could be labeled "a negotiator" --this is someone associated with estrogen.  The way this type of person creates a sense of social safety is through being able to relate and get along with all sorts of people.  They can seem "wishy-washy" to other types, but also have serious people-skills.  I think this becomes important then for you to recognize if you just aren't suited to those other people, or if you feel they are actually toxic, which would mean she might be dealing with emotional damage and trying to compensate.

 

Someone who would have the most natural concern about this is "the builder" -- might you be a builder?  She's got some great stuff on Youtube and books of course, if you are more curious. 

[Prairie]

I read the idea of types of people as strategies people adopt, perahps early on, to deal with things. So such a book could be useful even to someone who doesn't find the idea of different types of people justified. Having an elaborate description of a strategy and recognizing that you consistently use it and then looking at what needs the strategy meets, what dangers it avoids, imagining using a different strategy and noting the reactions in yourself, all seem valuable tools for self-knowledge, because it's likely that there are some decisions you'd re-evaluate if you were aware of them.

[Mishelle]

Here is an interesting anecdote from the recent FDR meetup in Austin.  I introduced myself to no fewer than 7 men.  Not one single man approached me.  The only person to introduce herself to me was one of the 3 women of maybe 50 or so who came to the event. 

 

What do you make of this?  I feel it's significant to this topic.

[st434u]

A crazy man once said:

 

"Culture and language tend to become traps... and yet they can be the platforms for enourmous freedom... *if* you understand what it's all about. And what it's all about, is you. You are the center of the mandala. You are not marginalized in any way... And the message that the culture gives us is that we are marginal... And so then when you look for guidance, direction and mentorship, we always look towards institutions. "Well I'll go to the university. Or I'll go to the army, or I'll do something. Somebody will tell me what to do, will give me a larger purpose." But, it's really yourself, that is the final arbiter. And if you keep yourself as the final arbiter, you will be less susceptible to infection by cultural illusion. Now, the problem with this is, that it makes you feel bad to not be infected by cultural illusion, because it's called alienation, you know? but this is... I can't solve all problems... the reason we feel alienated is because the society is infantile, trivial, and stupid."

[Mishelle]

that's not the only reason.  it's also because when presented with the opportunity to grow beyond that, the average man shrinks.  of course i mean women too.

 

I do not feel alienated with my dogs, yet they are all of the above.

[Connor]

Thank you for your insight Mishelle, I think the archetype you described does accurately portray her.  I would say these people aren't toxic in the sense that they are verbally abusive, but have unprocessed trauma which they avoid talking about through instead speaking of trivialities.  I think these relationships in many ways parallel her relationship with her parents, who were refugees of the vietnam war.  Surprisingly, and I think admirably, her parents were not physically or verbally abusive to her even though they grew up in a society where child abuse is the norm.  However, her parents certainly have unprocessed trauma from such a tumultuous upbringing, and don't talk to her about their childhood or experiences of war very much.  As a result, I don't think she learned a lot of emotional intelligence from her parents.  Although she is a very emotionally stable person, this lack of emotional intelligence is expressed through her brother, who is emotionally unstable and lacks empathy.  Also, even though her parents were not abusive towards her, she was exposed to her friend's family whose mother was openly verbally and physically abusive towards her children.  

[cynicist]

Here is an interesting anecdote from the recent FDR meetup in Austin.  I introduced myself to no fewer than 7 men.  Not one single man approached me.  The only person to introduce herself to me was one of the 3 women of maybe 50 or so who came to the event. 

 

What do you make of this?  I feel it's significant to this topic.

 

I'm curious about this myself. I've thought about going to one and imagined how different it might be, since I perceive many 'normal' people to be vaguely threatening and irrational. (and not really seeing me as a person but as an object they can use) I wonder if I would open up or shut down....

 

 

A crazy man once said:

 

"Culture and language tend to become traps... and yet they can be the platforms for enourmous freedom... *if* you understand what it's all about. And what it's all about, is you. You are the center of the mandala. You are not marginalized in any way... And the message that the culture gives us is that we are marginal... And so then when you look for guidance, direction and mentorship, we always look towards institutions. "Well I'll go to the university. Or I'll go to the army, or I'll do something. Somebody will tell me what to do, will give me a larger purpose." But, it's really yourself, that is the final arbiter. And if you keep yourself as the final arbiter, you will be less susceptible to infection by cultural illusion. Now, the problem with this is, that it makes you feel bad to not be infected by cultural illusion, because it's called alienation, you know? but this is... I can't solve all problems... the reason we feel alienated is because the society is infantile, trivial, and stupid."

 

Where is that quote from? I like it.

[Prairie]

I've thought about going to one and imagined how different it might be, since I perceive many 'normal' people to be vaguely threatening and irrational. (and not really seeing me as a person but as an object they can use) I wonder if I would open up or shut down....

I have watched less than a dozen of Stefan's videos and recently noticed that there was going to be a meetup in town (Austin), so I figured I'd go see what others who watched him were like, with little expectation. The people I met were respectful and tried to connect with me. They, like me, were interested in discussing self-knowledge types of things rather than Bitcoin, but I figured it was probably going to mostly be about Bitcoin given the conference the next few days. I talked with four people most of the time and they were all pleasant. One in particular was enthusiastic about Bitcoin and ways it could improve peoples' lives in other countries, and I enjoyed listening to his intelligent commentary. It surprised me that it wasn't just me who was interested in self-development topics and childhood trauma.