Getting over it, Useless thought

[bootoo]

This community attracts people who had difficult childhoods. When speaking to some people in the chatroom and in these forums I see there are still people who might be unaware of a most liberating and freeing skill you can develop which is, ignoring useless thought

 

I have been out of my mothers house for more than a decade, However up until a couple of years ago all it would take is a random memory to make me angry or upset about how i was raised. Sometimes these are triggered by communications with my mother, other times just through talking with my brothers. But most of the time there was no particular triggering event, i was just thinking about my childhood.

 

At the same time i was sitting around mad at my mother and feeling sorry for myself for having to deal with the consequences of her (lack of) actions I had my own real life problems that i wasnt addressing. another way to look at it, Instead of enjoying the free time i had and making the most out of my freedom i was instead spending that time miserable thinking of a time when i wasnt free. 

 

The question is, whats the point?

 

Well then i heard a metaphor that im about to butcher about human thought. A dog is running around in a field, the owner calls his dog back, on receipt of this stimulation the dog immediately turns and runs back to its owner, only on the way it catches scent of another dogs butt and is pulled out of the return command and is off seeking the source of the scent. Our brains are constantly letting out a ticker tape of thoughts and ideas, memories and predictions, often these are triggered by real world events that are happening around us, other times they are just things we always think about so fire strongly and draw our attention. 

 

I believe when we are sitting and suffering about past events that have no impact on current or future events we are the mindless dog just responding blindly to the strongest stimulus available in the moment. But we don't have to be. If you pay close attention to the content of your consciousness, either in concentrated sessions or throughout the day, you can learn to pick and choose which thoughts you empower by seeing them through, and which you dis-empower by witnessing but not participating in. 

 

At first i would just notice i was upset at a useless thought and have my internal voice tell me to stop and usually call me some derogatory term. 'Remember when you said that thing and blew the date 6 years ago?' 'Remember when you made that kid cry in elementary school?' 'Remember you wanted to do this and thought that was good?' 'SHUT UP IDIOT! WHY ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT THAT NOW?' I found myself getting mad at myself for having the thoughts. I dont recommend this . However with practice i would find myself aware that i was stuck in a thought earlier and earlier in the thought itself until now where chances are im not stuck in any useless random thought, im either deep in intentional thinking or im not thinking, just paying attention. Very Very rarely anymore do i sit and have thoughts of regrets or negative events randomly spawn in my mind.

 

Another benefit is when my fight of flight is activated in times of anxiety or stress or anger I am able to breath deeply and clear my mind and usually be back to neutral in a couple of seconds. At first it took a walk around the block but now it just takes a breath. in the beginning a bad call at work could have me agitated all day! A bad result of my soccer time could have me miserable for a weekend! Suffering to Neutral in one or two breaths. 

 

Also through simply paying attention i have a much greater appreciation for people, for nature, for myself, I am more useful and productive at work, i am a better friend and companion. There are lots of benefits to paying attention in general, and not too many to being distracted by unpleasant thoughts of the past.

 

Now i'm not saying your childhood or whatever trauma you may have suffered isn't the reason for your anxiety or whatever social or emotional issue you have. And you may find yourself constantly re-living or thinking of past events because you are constantly trying to seek understanding in order to work on the issues and get better. I understand a lot of people had it worse than me. However, what im talking about actually works, and there is good science backing it up too.

 

Give it a try! as easy as just 'paying attention' sounds, its definitely a skill that has to be worked on - but the pay off is immense 

 

PEACE AND LOVE!

[Libertarian Prepper]

Thanks for sharing. Is this similar to mindfulness, where one would meditate and when thoughts come to their mind, they simply observe them but do not engage, and let go? I've heard that eventually, when the technique is well-learned, one can meditate and relax with just a simple breath, as you described above.

 

And if this is the case, mindfulness does indeed have research data backing it up.

[cynicist]

I believe when we are sitting and suffering about past events that have no impact on current or future events...

 

Why would you assume that? Look I'm with you on negative self-talk. It's important to question your thoughts if they are inconsistent with reality or if they are abusive towards you, but ignoring thoughts just because they are unpleasant isn't a good idea. Let's say for example that you just met someone new and start recalling memories of an abusive family member or friend, that could be your mind telling you that this new person is familiar and not in a good way. Like it or not we are shaped in part by our past experiences and they certainly impact the present and future even if only through our perception of things.

 

That said I agree with trying to be more aware of your thoughts, specifically when you are dwelling on the negatives so that you can pull yourself out of that vortex.

[TheRobin]

if you start denying yourself a valid emotional experience you'll also do that to others and passiv aggressively lecture them about what they should or shouldn't feel (as I've seen you do in the chat for instance). So saying what you propose "works" is not true anyway. All you do is is create another blindspot that allows you to blame others for being the victims of abusers cause basically "they should just get over it".

[Slavik]

Im never big on "get over it" thing.  Here are a few things you might want to take into consideration.

1) The fact that some of these "voices" no longer seem as if they are someone else any more, meaning at some point in your life weather you want it or not, they becasme a part of you.

2)You are in a community where people have suffered inormous harm, from that point I would be very catious in thinking that want you have experienced is of the same or similar magnitude, or if what you have experienced have left the same level of trauma on you.  Not all people cope or deal in the same way or manner, you want want to look up  a pshychology term "Invulnurables" 

3) Its nothing new in what you are saying, at some point we all have dones that, never daalt with trauma, but instead brushed the thoughts off.  I hope for you it will be a winning battle, for most, if not dealt with, it becomes a losing battle as sure as I  am sitting here...

[ribuck]

if you start denying yourself a valid emotional experience ...

 

This is not about "denying yourself a valid emotional experience". It's about stopping the destructive re-runs of that same experience.

 

To the original poster, I would say "have you considered journalling?"

 

That way you can experience the no-longer-useful emotional experience one final time. Wallow in it with full intensity. Get some type of durable diary or journal and write it down. Everything. Write down the facts of what happened, and also write down how you feel about what happened, and about anything related. No holds barred. Then put the journal in a safe storage place.

 

Your subconscious knows that once you have safely committed these unproductive thoughts and feelings to paper, there's no longer any need to keep them simmering away in your head.

[PatrickC]

The whole point of recalling trauma is as a means of making sense of your own history and thus allowing you to understand the triggers in your current life that cause you to make poor decisions for yourself. It's not meant to be a way to be subsumed by it. Rather it's meant to help you grow into a person that is conscious of their past, but no longer let's it control their present or future.

 

After some time and practice this does shift more into the subconscious. It's analgous to exercising an unused muscle, at first it will be a little painful or sore, but more and more as it strengthens you will become less conscious of it.

[Lians]

So after thousands of years of evolution your brain still can't distinguish between useful and useless thoughts. Moreover, it can't differentiate between past, present and future. Did I get that right?

 

What you're proposing is dangerous and doesn't work in the long run. I was so good at discarding "useless" thoughts that I even felt proud about my skill. With years of exercising and meditation I was able to silence those voices before they could utter a single word. This was supposed to be my secret strength. I experienced an emotional breakdown after 13 years of dedicated thought disposal. The people around me who did the same thing are now dealing with the onset of severe depression. They keep ramping up the distractions, exercise and meditation, but it's no longer working. A lot of them turned to sex, drugs and alcohol just to get some temporary relief.

 

Take this as a warning. I've seen the end of the path that you're walking.

[Kevin Beal]

You mentioned that what you are saying is back by science. Can you provide a link to any primary sources?

 

I cannot for the life of me imagine how talking to yourself like your thinking is useless is ever going to lead to greater mental health. That would be counterintuitive to say the least.

[Libertarian Prepper]

I think I mentioned that mindfulness is backed by science, which it is, but upon reflection and reading other people's comments I don't think it applies to this context. I was thinking more of mindfulness as a way of meditating and relaxing, not as a way to avoid painful (and necessary) emotions. I think the main source for mindfulness is probably Jon Kabat-Zinn.

[Kevin Beal]

I think I mentioned that mindfulness is backed by science, which it is, but upon reflection and reading other people's comments I don't think it applies to this context.

The OP said this in the last paragraph

[masonman]

In response to some of the stuff about meditation, from what I have seen, there are people within this community who see learning from your past history as essentially the cure-all for current psychological issues, and a good portion of people who are into Buddhism and meditation seem to think meditation is the cure-all. I hate the "in-between" argument (the answer to most debates is not the bloody middle ground), however I think both of these things help in different ways. I think ignoring your past is a great way to keep making the same bad decisions, and meditation is about learning to calm your brain down and to learn how it is fundamentally impossible to get a "one-up" on life. In my personal opinion meditation aids in gaining self knowledge because it forces you to watch your own brain as an "observer," and instead of being overcrowded with nonsense you get a little bit better at reasoning things out in your head. You can think a bit more clearly.

 

I've never seen promoters of mindfulness meditation say that the point is to "clear your mind" (most will tell you that to consciously do such a thing is logically impossible), but just to watch what your mind does, and label what it does. In and of itself you learn a lot about yourself. I found it quite amazing to see how rapidly my brain flies from subject to subject. I don't try to shut anything out, that usually backfires anyways.

[Kevin Beal]

In response to some of the stuff about meditation, from what I have seen, there are people within this community who see learning from your past history as essentially the cure-all for current psychological issues, 

Like who? I don't think I've seen anyone say it's a cure-all...

[bootoo]

Think i need to be a little clearer

 

I am on the phone at work trying to help a guy out, the guy is telling me i suck and all his problems are my fault in the most violent vile way, he is speaking over me and wont let me answer a single question, my face is red, my teeth are gritted, my hands are shaking, im ready to punch this guy out...but wait...this man doesnt want to fight me, i am in no danger, why am i ready to physically fight? two or three deep breaths.....the truth is the guy on the phone is old, he doesnt understand what he is doing, anything he is doing, he has been past around by idiots who also dont know what they are doing and need to be ordered directly and exactly to be effective...this man cannot be enjoying himself, he clearly doesnt want to be yelling at a stranger at the other end of the line, he wants his problem solved...two or three deep breaths, hands arent shaking, im relaxing, i dont want to fight this guy

 

Another example

 

I am sitting in traffic driving to work, and old song comes on that i remember, following the trail of thoughts i think of a girl i used to know, i remember how horribly i treated her, i physically CRINGE as i think about it...then i stop, wait, i havent been that person in years, i havent and would never treat someone like that again, why am i sitting here suffering for something i cannot take back, have learned from, and have not repeated since? So i just look around, look at the cars around me, see what the people are doing, look at the sky, see what draws my attention.....and im calm again

 

I think there are very good reasons to experience negative emotions, i think there are very good reasons to think back and analyse your past. But there are a lot of BAD reasons.

 

I tried meditation, but i find it way too hard to sit completely still and do nothing, so thats why i dont say meditation, instead I call it paying attention. When im doing tasks that require minimal attention like driving or chores or my job its very easy to let my brain do its song and dance and fill the large part of my consciousness that isnt being used/stimulated by the task at hand, but instead of paying attention to that song and dance i pay close attention to the task itself and everything i can see, hear, how i feel - even negative emotions - and that includes what thoughts come up

 

Interesting responses in here!

 

This is a really good book

 

http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Life-Your-Brain-Live/dp/0452298881

[Kevin Beal]

There are good reasons to suppress and repress your emotional experience. If you are a child (or a captive) in a dangerous situation, you want to be able to suppress and then repress it to protect you from that danger. Mastering their inner world because they cannot change the outer one, by "clearing their minds", or distracting themselves or adopting other people's mythologies about the situation. That will all serve the child in the short run, while they are forced to be in that situation.

 

Adults may want to suppress some of their emotions in a work setting or something similar if they can't reasonably walk out of the room and deal with it. They definitely don't want to make that a habit though (thus repress it) since you have much less control over that, it could result in destructive behavior later etc.

 

If you aren't a captive child, or in an extremity of cases at work, then you don't want to suppress your emotional experience. It can very easily lead to repression, since if you aren't dealing with it now, then why would you later? That standing order in your head will start to carry itself out.

 

We all have emotional experiences that don't seem to fit the current situation. I got resentful recently when someone was only trying to help me. If you look at it like I'm resentful at her, then it's not going to make any sense, appear "useless", but that's not actually what was happening. I wasn't upset with her, she merely triggered an existing upset.

 

The only way that people have emotional experiences that are just plain wrong is when their sense data is hypersensitive (twig breaks and we think it's a tiger) or fucked up (in the case of psychosis). What I was doing has probably a similar basis, but is different. I was resentful (most likely) because the particular way that she tried to help me was reminiscent of past situations where I was humiliated. While she was being sincere, the people in the past were not. My resentment made sense then, but not now.

 

If you take these seemingly "useless" responses and shut them down with "mindfulness", or any other kind of distraction that is designed to suppress, then that response will only cement itself to more situations that no longer warrant it. It could also shift into some other form, get acted out in a different way, but you cannot suppress / repress without consequences. It'll express itself somehow, and the more you avoid it, the more dysfunctional the expression.

 

Eventually the defense (this "useless" response) becomes the personality. The true self erodes and the false self takes it's place.

 

These kinds of meditations are great, so long as they don't enable you to avoid your own issues. Preferably they'd bring you closer to them. But that's not how most people meditate...

[bootoo]

If you take these seemingly "useless" responses and shut them down with "mindfulness", or any other kind of distraction that is designed to suppress, then that response will only cement itself to more situations that no longer warrant it. It could also shift into some other form, get acted out in a different way, but you cannot suppress / repress without consequences. It'll express itself somehow, and the more you avoid it, the more dysfunctional the expression.

 

Eventually the defense (this "useless" response) becomes the personality. The true self erodes and the false self takes it's place.

 

These kinds of meditations are great, so long as they don't enable you to avoid your own issues. Preferably they'd bring you closer to them. But that's not how most people meditate...

 

I'm not sure about 'shutting down' 'suppressing' or 'repressing' anything - I can see how it appears thats what im saying....I believe the process is when the thought in question appears if you see it through you end up strengthening the thought itself and the connections to it, making its more likely to come up again in response to a wider range of triggers. Of course the opposite, by recognizing it but not seeing it through, but instead paying attention to everything else going on the memory is weakened and you will have the thought less and fewer things will trigger it. If there is a GOOD reason to have the thought, have the thought! keep that trigger strong.

 

Speaking of suffering, another thing just paying attention showed me was how much time i was spending trying to distract myself from the feeling and thoughts that caused me to suffer. As soon as i was aware of that i would purposely STOP reaching into my batman tool belt of distractions and just let the suffering happen to see how bad it is. The best metaphor i can think of to explain what i found out was....I was taking a pill to manage symptoms of a poor childhood and a selfish misguided early adulthood which had its own set of side effects....when i stopped taking the pill i realized not only that the symptoms are not NEAR as bad as i remember they WERE, but most of them just dont exist anymore! I was letting my addictive/habitual/unconscious behavior run wild and justifying it afterwards by saying its a good response to my sucky life...only my life doesnt suck anymore, its pretty good! So i stopped taking the pill

[Kevin Beal]

As far as I understand it, if you have an emotional experience that is unpleasant and you try and diminish the feeling in a way that makes you less aware of it, either by telling yourself it's something it isn't or by avoiding it entirely, then that is suppression. You are denying yourself your experience of your life, and that has serious psychological consequences.

 

The only way I can see a person escaping this inevitable conclusion is by (rightly or wrongly) telling themselves that their new perspective is more true. And when I've seen people do this (myself included) it was always half truths or mythologies that people came up with: therefore suppression.

 

The entirety of eastern philosophy seems to be an ex-post facto way of doing this (lying to themselves), as far as I can tell.

[bootoo]

As far as I understand it, if you have an emotional experience that is unpleasant and you try and diminish the feeling in a way that makes you less aware of it, either by telling yourself it's something it isn't or by avoiding it entirely, then that is suppression. You are denying yourself your experience of your life, and that has serious psychological consequences.

 

The only way I can see a person escaping this inevitable conclusion is by (rightly or wrongly) telling themselves that their new perspective is more true. And when I've seen people do this (myself included) it was always half truths or mythologies that people came up with: therefore suppression.

 

The entirety of eastern philosophy seems to be an ex-post facto way of doing this (lying to themselves), as far as I can tell.

 

Interesting...

 

So back to my examples, it seems you are saying its completely worthwhile to rage at the phone call and be ready for a fight, when there is no fight to be had. Rather than drive home and appreciate the scenery or the song playing on the radio its better to sit and regret what i did in the past. And taking action to lessen these is lying to myself?

 

Too expand a little...It seems you are saying its better to bring the stress and frustration of my work day home with me even tho there is nothing i can do while at home to make a difference in what happened or whats going to happen at work. It seems like rather than sit and pay attention to the movie it is better to pay attention to the memory of how much of a struggle childhood was for me and my brothers. 

 

The results of what i am saying give me greater control over the duration and even the triggering of my fight or flight mechanism, it stops me from spraying stress chemicals throughout my system for silly reasons like 'while not putting me in any danger at all a guy is terrible at driving' or 'when i was a child i ruined my brothers birthday surprise'. Suffering has real physical and health consequences. Constantly thinking about thoughts can lead to delusion and isolation/separation from reality. 

 

I dont need any mystical idea of better, I think 'better' is just getting closer to making sure my life is the most appropriate response to whats happening. Things are always changing. I always learning more. my idea of better is always in need of updating. If instead of paying attention to whats happening IF im just re-running old clips and suffering because of them I cant see how that would get me anywhere.

 

One last note - you arent suggesting that every thought and emotion IS Worthwhile? I think about eating mcdonalds all the time, that jingle instantly makes me think 'FRIES'....thoughts and emotions can be played like a fiddle, there are people in my family who would be happy to see the middle east turned to glass in a nuclear explosion. What good is that thinking? Sure i get angry when i see a guy hack another guys head off...and there are people who want me to picture the towers falling and the head being hacked off and feel the anger everytime i hear the buzzwords 'TERRORIST' and 'MUSLIMS'. Of course these people are just playing us for their own ends. Surely you would want the skill to be able to filter out the bullshit? Paying attention, close attention, and only empowering worthwhile thoughts is a way to do this.

[Kevin Beal]

So back to my examples, it seems you are saying its completely worthwhile to rage at the phone call and be ready for a fight, when there is no fight to be had. Rather than drive home and appreciate the scenery or the song playing on the radio its better to sit and regret what i did in the past. And taking action to lessen these is lying to myself?

Nope. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying to respect your emotional apparatus enough to trust that you feel the way you do for a reason, and not make it bad because it's inconvenient, or hard, or unpleasant.

 

 

 

Too expand a little...It seems you are saying its better to bring the stress and frustration of my work day home with me even tho there is nothing i can do while at home to make a difference in what happened or whats going to happen at work. It seems like rather than sit and pay attention to the movie it is better to pay attention to the memory of how much of a struggle childhood was for me and my brothers.

If your work situation is the true source of your "negative" emotional response then you can get a new job, negotiate a different situation or some other solution. If it's baggage from the past, then you can work through it by acknowledging it, looking at it's origins and it's effect on your life, create a long term game plan for dealing with it's effects in the current day. You can always do something about it as an adult. Psychotherapy is a huge plus if you can get a good therapist.

 

 

 

The results of what i am saying give me greater control over the duration and even the triggering of my fight or flight mechanism, it stops me from spraying stress chemicals throughout my system for silly reasons like 'while not putting me in any danger at all a guy is terrible at driving' or 'when i was a child i ruined my brothers birthday surprise'. Suffering has real physical and health consequences. Constantly thinking about thoughts can lead to delusion and isolation/separation from reality.

But changing your mind about it is not a long term solution, in the same way that aspirin is not a long term solution. You are only managing symptoms. The problem isn't your emotions, it's deeper than that. And I didn't ask you to "constantly think about your problems". If it's constant enough to warrant that as a response, then get yourself into therapy quickly!

 

 

 

One last note - you arent suggesting that every thought and emotion IS Worthwhile? I think about eating mcdonalds all the time, that jingle instantly makes me think 'FRIES'....thoughts and emotions can be played like a fiddle, there are people in my family who would be happy to see the middle east turned to glass in a nuclear explosion. What good is that thinking? Sure i get angry when i see a guy hack another guys head off...and there are people who want me to picture the towers falling and the head being hacked off and feel the anger everytime i hear the buzzwords 'TERRORIST' and 'MUSLIMS'. Of course these people are just playing us for their own ends. Surely you would want the skill to be able to filter out the bullshit? Paying attention, close attention, and only empowering worthwhile thoughts is a way to do this.

I don't know what you mean by "worthwhile". It depends, just like eating McDonalds can be just fine. Different things have different consequences. Eating McDonalds is directly analogous to suppressing your emotional experience. You can do it every once in a while, just don't make it a habit. That's all I'm saying.

 

Also, you are also conflating emotions with conclusions here. Conclusions can be false, but it would make no sense to say that an emotion is false without reference to the associated thought (i.e. it doesn't make sense that I'd resent a person who was trying to help me). And if you do that, then all you are saying is that you don't know why the person is feeling that way, and thus cannot dismiss it as unproductive.

 

If the problem is the conclusion, then that's a separate issue. That's not what you said though as your criticism of the approach taken in the show about people's childhoods. You didn't say that what they were saying was false: that it's not childhood that is the problem. Your criticism (if I understand correctly) is that the way they could go about it could be better (i.e. via "mindfulness").

 

If there is some error in looking at childhoods then make that case. 

[bootoo]

About childhoods...

 

How to be successful NOW - healthy diet/exercise, healthy information diet, purpose, autonomy, mastery, participation and community/family...im sure there is more but thats a pretty good list for this example

 

You do not need to look into your memory banks to get better in any of these

 

Now, acknowledging that perhaps your lack of care regarding your diet may be because your childhood left you not putting any value in your self worth, and you can get the weight off your shoulders that you are not responsible. AH that feels good. Now back to my diet....no more childhood thoughts required to get back on that

 

Relationships, perhaps i am noticing that a lot of the anti social behavior and thoughts im having are just patterns learned from my dysfunctional family. Ah, nice, another weight off my shoulders, i am human, i am a living breathing response to my environment. Now, how SHOULD i treat people? What could i do to have more successful interactions with people?

 

If you find yourself unable to get on a better diet, if you find yourself unable to have better relationships pay attention to what you are paying attention to. Are you still just watching the picture show of your childhood over and over again? Why? Would it be better to learn about nutrition and relationships and go try it out? or is your time better spent thinking about past actions and how things SHOULD have been, or how you would act now if you went back...how many times do you need to view the source of the problem?

 

Other than to stop blaming yourself (which is causing yourself unnecessary suffering), what good IS going over your childhood traumas? 

 

I didn't think i had a choice in what i think, and really, i don't, but i do have influence over what i think - as described above - and there are useful thoughts and useless thoughts, i want to empower the useful ones and not give anything to the useless thoughts. Occasionally i still sing the teenage mutant ninja turtles theme song from the 90s in my head, i make no effort to stop this thought because why not? however I make every effort to not think about the humiliation of wearing school clothes 2 or 3 sizes too small because whiskey is more important. why? Because theres no need to be sad about it now, and my body cant tell that theres no danger it just responds and floods my system with stress hormones, and the more you flood it the less you can do about anything!

 

Regarding your post...you seem to have missed that i am saying i dont have these problems anymore, but its interesting that you say 'seek therapy' and 'acknowledge it, find the source, set a long term plan to fix it' - I acknowledged that the problem was thinking useless thoughts, the source was i had mis-identified habitual thought processes as intentional, the long term plan was to properly identify the thoughts and choose conscious intention.

 

When you say 'get a new job' or 'renegotiate' or whatever else, it seems you are saying 'change the world' - not many people are in a position to do that....

[cynicist]

If there is a GOOD reason to have the thought, have the thought! keep that trigger strong.

 

I get what you are saying about being conscious and I agree (I've also had similar experiences in retail and it is an extremely useful skill to have in that environment) but what I quoted above is the issue I have with what you are saying. How do you make that determination? That's a rhetorical question because you can't. Thoughts happen, and sometimes they are inconvenient or unpleasant, and you certainly don't have to explore everything to the fullest extent, but there is no way to starting sorting thoughts into 'good' or 'bad' categories. I think you mean to say letting yourself get caught up in unpleasant thoughts without consciously looking at them. Like in the example of your old girlfriend, if you had not stopped to become conscious of your thoughts and how you had changed your life for the better you might have spent a good chunk of time sitting in traffic, brooding, and set the stage for an unpleasant day for yourself. That's what I love about 'mindfulness'.

 

however I make every effort to not think about the humiliation of wearing school clothes 2 or 3 sizes too small because whiskey is more important. why? Because theres no need to be sad about it now, and my body cant tell that theres no danger it just responds and floods my system with stress hormones, and the more you flood it the less you can do about anything!

 

Isn't that your body's way of telling you that there still is a need to be sad though? If you have to actively try and suppress those thoughts when they come up, that doesn't seem healthy or appropriate to me.

 

Other than to stop blaming yourself (which is causing yourself unnecessary suffering), what good IS going over your childhood traumas? 

 

To heal them and stop the suffering? I don't think you can say that you have achieved this (acceptance and healing) if the thoughts keep coming up, since the purpose of them doing so is to bring your attention to these issues.

 

I tried meditation, but i find it way too hard to sit completely still and do nothing, so thats why i dont say meditation, instead I call it paying attention. 

 

What?! Haven't you ever enjoyed relaxing and focusing on parts of your body? Like sitting in a hammock and feeling the fibers as they touch your skin. I think the biggest problem with meditation is how formal everyone makes it appear, with sitting a particular way or whatever. I find my own ability to inhale oxygen fascinating, sometimes I just like taking a deep breath to feel the way my body moves to accomplish it. I think if you are trying to focus on 'meditating' you can end up doing the exactly opposite and tensing up your body, at least that has been my experience of it. 

[Kevin Beal]

How do you discern for yourself what is ignoring useless thoughts and what is avoidance. How do you know?

[bootoo]

 

Isn't that your body's way of telling you that there still is a need to be sad though? If you have to actively try and suppress those thoughts when they come up, that doesn't seem healthy or appropriate to me.

 

 

To heal them and stop the suffering? I don't think you can say that you have achieved this (acceptance and healing) if the thoughts keep coming up, since the purpose of them doing so is to bring your attention to these issues.

 

 

Not sure that my body is conscious in that way....more so think it is habitual thought processes i had continued from my childhood and through my teens into my early 20's....and to re-state, once you stop having the thoughts on purpose you stop having the thoughts, its not a continual denial, you have the thoughts less and less until you dont

 

What do you mean by healing and stopping suffering? The action or event caused suffering in that moment, the thoughts of the event are causing suffering after the moment has passed, not having the thoughts is being healed isnt it? and again, the thoughts do not keep coming up

 

New events happen in life and the same techniques can be used to get over them, however if you are continually battling the same thoughts over and over you might have a problem if you are not battling the same thoughts over and over, but are living in them and suffering because of them, you might have a problem

 

 

How do you discern for yourself what is ignoring useless thoughts and what is avoidance. How do you know?

 

What would a person be avoiding? a memory? thats like saying im avoiding a TV channel by not viewing it...but I have no reason to view the reality tv channel as i get nothing out of it....

 

Its very easy to discern what a useless thought

 

 

I do worry there is an idea that healing is a state of being that continues forever. I'm sad if this is any of your experiences. I am sure from my own experience that healing is something you do for a while, then don't do anymore because you are healed.

 

Thanks again for an interesting conversation....I might have to give meditation a go again, sounds like you really dig it!

[Kevin Beal]

What would a person be avoiding? a memory? thats like saying im avoiding a TV channel by not viewing it...but I have no reason to view the reality tv channel as i get nothing out of it....

It depends on the thought. I might think that it's a useless thought to feel guilt around the way I handled something or whatever along those lines. The implication if I'm wrong is that I'm suppressing something important.

 

To say it's useless is to have a standard that says that you know what is useless and what isn't in some kind of principled way. You didn't really share how you are coming to this conclusion about whatever thoughts in any kind of explicit way. My default is to think that people are un-principled until they demonstrate otherwise (but maybe I'm too cynical).

 

I've asked myself a ton of times whether or not the criticisms I have of myself are valid or not, and I found it to be one of the most difficult things I've done. So to think that someone could do it so casually it makes me very skeptical.

 

If you're trained to suppress something and you don't approach it principally then you just aren't going to have any success truly processing it. It would be like expecting someone who didn't know any english to suddenly start speaking it fluently. It's not a language you know unless you learned it.

[dsayers]

I've taken the exact opposite of the approach of the opening post.

 

Thanks to Lians's recommendation, I've starting watching the Philosopher's Toolkit series. As I watch, I notice that sometimes my mind begins to wander. In the past, I'd try to stay focused on what I was choosing to do at the time. In this example though, I simply pause the video and explore what I'm thinking about. The video will still be there when I'm done. Ironically, it's this series that has taught me that I should be more aware of ALL of my mind and not discard certain parts of it. I've taken to using a voice recorder and notepad for the purpose of not dropping any balls when I'm juggling too many.

 

This isn't meant to invalidate what the opening post's point was. I certainly grasp that this indulgence can lead to wasted time. I remember when I first moved back into my father's house, he would make digs that I'd focus on and it would literally ruin my entire day. Later I realized that him dropping a grenade into my mind is only damaging if I don't see it for what it really is.

[bootoo]

Interesting article talking about pro's and con's of this

 

''“Your ability to recognize what your mind is engaging with, and control that, is really a core strength,” said Peter Malinowski, a psychologist and neuroscientist at Liverpool John Moores University in England. “For some people who begin mindfulness training, it's the first time in their life where they realize that a thought or emotion is not their only reality, that they have the ability to stay focused on something else, for instance their breathing, and let that emotion or thought just pass by.”

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/19/magazine/breathing-in-vs-spacing-out.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=0

[MrCapitalism]

Regarding your first examples:

 

You had a valid primal fight or flight response to a stressful situation. The old guy was yelling at you on the phone. Your animal instincts could very well save your life some day, perhaps on the drive home when a car swerves into yours. If you make a habit of suppressing them in years they may not be readily available to your when you need them the most. Instead of shutting down, which you advocate, I would recommend taking a couple seconds to process your anger (probably related to the second example) and to realize that you are not in a situation which is dire. You can quickly process, and then help the customer.

 

IMHO you haven't processed how you treated your ex girlfriend badly. Every time this trauma brings itself to your attention (which it is doing A LOT because it really wants to be processed) you shut it down because of the damage it will cause to your psyche. Your attempts to shut down are not alleviating the suffering, so the emotions keep coming back up. This probably makes you angry, and then you double your efforts to shut down this experience. This leads back to your first example, where a person calls you in an emotional outburst which is unpleasant, you experience a valid "flight-or-fight" which you do not wish to process. You, as a conditioned response to the anger, shut down your emotional response.

 

I know this cycle of dysfunction, it was how I was raised.

 

IMO, if you were open to your emotions, they would start working to make your life better instead of making it worse.Your ex girlfriend would still come up in your mind, but your emotions about it would last probably no more than 2 seconds.You would have already processed how badly you treated her, you would accept that you were at fault, and that there is nothing you can do now to make the situation better.Those 2 seconds would be spent basically saying "yeah I really did treat her like crap back then."

 

You would still get in a rage when some old guy yells at you on the phone, but instead of shutting down, you would take 2 seconds to process and then adjust your attitude to the situation.And years from now, when that car swerves into your lane, you will be conditioned and successful in accepting your "flight or fight" response to aggressively turn the wheel and swerve out of the way... saving your life.

[Kevin Beal]

Also, it's logically untenable to hold that there is such a thing as observing yourself observing like they are two separate things. There is no consciousness without content, because it means nothing if not conscious of something. You absolutely do engage in your thoughts when you "simply observe them" because you are not a zombie and you supply meaning to that observation.

 

Mindfulness meditation rests on that false premise. To be consistent, you'd need to observe the observing, and then observe that observing into an infinite regression.

 

It is exactly equivalent to any other thoughts and in the exact same sense in which they are thought to be different.

 

Whenever I think about meditation, I'm reminded of the brief training I received and how I was told "okay, now clear your mind" and I start laughing out loud because I know that how I would do that is to think thoughts like "okay, I'm clearing my mind right now, don't let any of those sneaky thoughts slip past me", haha. I'm sure the irony is obvious.

 

There are clear benefits to meditation, but in exactly what way those benefits are delivered, AFAIK is a mystery. It could be entirely physiological because we are resting and breathing well, usually in a good posture meant to increase circulation. Or it could be in the same way that journaling is healing because we have quiet time to reflect.

 

What I would caution against is assuming that meditations are something different in nature than the things we do in everyday life. Breathing in deep in preparation for a test is a form a meditation, after all.

[bootoo]

Also, it's logically untenable to hold that there is such a thing as observing yourself observing like they are two separate things. There is no consciousness without content, because it means nothing if not conscious of something. You absolutely do engage in your thoughts when you "simply observe them" because you are not a zombie and you supply meaning to that observation.

 

Mindfulness meditation rests on that false premise. To be consistent, you'd need to observe the observing, and then observe that observing into an infinite regression.

 

It is exactly equivalent to any other thoughts and in the exact same sense in which they are thought to be different.

 

Whenever I think about meditation, I'm reminded of the brief training I received and how I was told "okay, now clear your mind" and I start laughing out loud because I know that how I would do that is to think thoughts like "okay, I'm clearing my mind right now, don't let any of those sneaky thoughts slip past me", haha. I'm sure the irony is obvious.

 

There are clear benefits to meditation, but in exactly what way those benefits are delivered, AFAIK is a mystery. It could be entirely physiological because we are resting and breathing well, usually in a good posture meant to increase circulation. Or it could be in the same way that journaling is healing because we have quiet time to reflect.

 

What I would caution against is assuming that meditations are something different in nature than the things we do in everyday life. Breathing in deep in preparation for a test is a form a meditation, after all.

 

On paying attention to attention....I think the 'be the observer' stuff is not to be taken literally, its just a trick of language to make a point that is hard to make.

 

First you have to be aware that you have a wide array of things you can pay attention to. What you are seeing, what you are hearing, and what you are thinking are all examples of this, and all of these could be multiple things at the same time, thinking one thing while looking at another, listening to a couple of things while thinking of something else....our brains can do a lot. When they say 'be the observer' what they mean is, take note of what you are thinking about. Pay attention to what you are paying attention to. I think by doing this you are saving it to your conscious memory. When you can start doing this you start to notice your habitual patterns and other patterns about your life. This is being aware of the contents of your consciousness. If you find yourself singing mcdonalds jingles and relating 'thirsty' to 'coke' then you may see the value of taking charge of the content of your consciousness (or the value of billions of dollars of advertising)

 

The infinite regression...to try to talk about conscious awareness if you can imagine just for fun you have 4 computer monitors in front of you, one showing everything you see, another showing a story from your past that has been triggered by what you currently see, one showing a simulation of the near future (planning), and the 4th showing boobs. I believe just paying attention to the boobs would be normal, and the rest just wouldnt registered. However if you were to look at all 4 monitors or 'be the observer' all 4 screens then have all 4 videos playing at once. At this point im free to look at the boobs if i want, but im aware of what else is going on. I am also free to notice that while the boobs are drawing my attention stronger than the rest it may not be the best use of my time or attention looking at them. and longer term, if i stop paying attention to the boobs so much they stop drawing my attention so much until eventually they stop taking up a monitor in my metaphor...or is it an analogy?