What's the way out of Nihilism?

[MMX2010]

During Wednesday's call-in show, some people mentioned that they went through a period of nihilism.  How did you get out? 

 

As an aside, I haven't read any of Steph's books, so if you have a book recommendation that can help, I'd gladly read those.

 

Thanks in advance. 

[Lians]

I turned my anger loose and took rather large, regular doses of philosophy. I never quite slipped into nihilism, but came very close to the edge. If I have to verbalize my experience at the time, it would look like this: "I'll get to a better place even if I have to drag myself by my teeth. Fuck the world and fuck everyone who tries to stop me."

[Kevin Beal]

My experience with Nihilism:

 

I considered myself a nihilist for several years. Specifically a nihilist with regard to truth and morality (and even reality at times). I have that part of myself inside me still.

 

I associate it with depression. It seems to fit a cycle that I have where something will provoke insecurity in me, then I feel depressed, then I have nihilistic thoughts about how everybody is full of shit and everybody is arrogant to think that they know anything true. The function of the nihilism seemed to be to make my depression out to be healthy and the state where I'm most "honest". In other words, it's okay that I feel afloat unsure of myself because (ostensibly) everybody else is floating too and they are deluded, only pretending to be ship captains.

 

I had been chronically depressed from an early age until just a few years ago and it was very familiar to me. I knew other people who were also very depressed, but had great rhetorical skill, always contradicting what I said, making me feel like I knew nothing. A sort of post modern,... sickness. And I would do the same thing to people eventually (and regretfully).

 

 

What changed:

 

The way that I started working out of it was by first realizing that this was a problem and that I had very poor self esteem. No matter what ideology I adopted, I just knew that what I wanted most was to be happy. The nihilism gave me too many reasons to isolate myself, not take risks, not build or maintain relationships, not put myself out there.

 

I got into the politics talked about in this show and the book The Psychology of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden came up, so I decided that I would try and see if working on my self esteem was something that I wanted to do.

 

The book is amazing (in case you haven't read it) and I became aware of how important the idea that I take myself and my rationality seriously was. I took a greater interest in objectivity as it offered me a an opportunity to better understand the world around me, be more effective, have real values and eventually have real lasting self esteem (as is explained in the book).

 

I started feeling good about myself and seeing how I was formally so irrational with the nihilistic ramblings that I would produce. I felt it important to gain good logical tools: principles, in order to combat the nihilism I have within me, so that I could have self esteem and be happy.

 

Now, that nihilism in me takes more the form of cynicism and skepticism which I'm much happier with. A certain degree of doubt seems worthwhile to me.

 

I don't know if that helps at all, but that was my experience.

 

 

Also, Universally Preferable Behavior: A Rational Proof of Secular Ethics (by Stef) extinguished the last vestige of my moral nihilism. I would highly recommend that one if you're more thinking about moral nihilism. I think it actually kind of appeals to moral nihilists in a weird way since the problem moral nihilists seem to have most often is how irrational people are when they make moral arguments, inflict shame, wage wars etc.

 

 

Show content on nihilism:

 

 

863 – Son Versus Nihilists - A Listener Conversation

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_863_Son_Versus_Nihilist_Listener.mp3

 

930 – The Lure of Nihilism (A listener conversation)

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_930_The_Lure_of_Nihilism.mp3

 

1010 – Mr Nihilist... (A Listener Convo)

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1010_Mr_Nihilist_Listener_Convo.mp3

 

1044 – Mr Nihilist Part 2

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1044_Mr_Nihilist_Part_2.mp3

 

1059 – Mr. Nihilist Part Three

http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1059_Mr_Nihilist_Part_3.mp3

[MrCapitalism]

I recommend UPB. For me, it proved that nihilism is invalid.

 

It was the only argument that gave me what I accept as logical proof.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

I got a girlfriend and started doing Aikido.

[Emanuel]

I got into this show and when I understood what was really being talked about, I found a part of me that had long been asleep.

I found the part of me that was ashamed, and that wanted to be recognized. As I worked to get that part to live with me, in the moment, I was freed.

I knew the truth, or at least a way to get to it, and I started having the best conversations and friendships of my life.

I don't know at what point my nihilism went away, but it happened as I was acknowledging exiled parts of myself.

[MMX2010]

Thanks so much for your replies. 

 

Stef's interviews with Mr. Nihilist were especially amazing. 

[Mishelle]

These are some great replies and such an important topic!  I didn't know of these interviews so I'll try to find them, thanks.

 

I suffered with varying degrees of nihilism for quite a few years, including a spell that was very deep for over a year.  This is such a painful place to be--you've taken the red pill alone and are in the rabbit hole, that's how I felt it.  It was like a long very bad acid trip where you come face to face with all the ugliness in the world and the beauty of it becomes lost on you.  Unfortunately Stef wasn't there to save me!

 

I had to do a lot of self-knowledge and spiritual work.  I know the spiritual part is not the right answer for folks here, but it worked for me.  I had to keep myself focused on what's possible, even if it seemed impossible.  This is spiritual work to me. You force yourself to focus on the beauty no matter what, everyday--beauty and gratitude, that's what shifted it for me.  In the rabbit hole there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and that's where you've got to keep your eye.

Read Ekhart Tolle.

bon courage!

[Kevin Beal]

Read Eckhart Tolle.

If I remember correctly, Tolle is a kind of nihilist, insofar as he rejects objective reality, truth and morality. His "non-dualism" means embracing contradiction as truth, right? The dualism being truth vs falsehood, or right vs wrong, or real vs unreal. He essentially says that the mind invents meaning where there really is none (ostensibly).

 

If that's true, I wouldn't consider his writing good for getting out of a nihilistic mindset. Just the opposite, really.

[Mishelle]

Kevin I don't know everything about his work to be sure, but I think it's important to recognize that not everyone comes to the truth through a straight path or through philosophy.  Tolle, and other spiritual teachers like Ken Wilbur and Chopra, can be a stepping-stone out of the matrix for a lot of folks.  Not all they say has to be true or logical for it to resonate and for me nihilism was not come to philosophically.  When all around you is falsehood and you know it and one more step in the game makes you want to puke, that's also nihilism to me, maybe I'm over-reaching with that definition.

Here in a nutshell is the difference between Stef and the "evolutionary philosophers/spiritual gurus" or whatever they want to call themselves:

 

"You can't stand the world because it has lost its soul."

and

"You can't stand the world because it has lost its virtue."

 

In essence they are so similar!

[Kevin Beal]

I've noticed that a lot of people end up on the forums who have a lot of eastern philosophical, non-dual or similarly anti-ego type perspectives. And I'm always surprised by that. To me they seem incredibly different and mutually exclusive, but if so many are drawn to the show, then perhaps I'm missing something.

 

I'm actually more familiar with Deepak and Ken than I am with Tolle. I've read UG Kirshnamurti and other thinkers of this vein. My parents were really into A Course in Miracles for a long time. I grew up with this stuff floating around, but the majority of my exposure has been in recent years with my brother who lived and worked with, and we talked about this sort of stuff on a daily basis, discussing, debating, and I think I can argue the non-dual position pretty well. But you may be much more knowledgeable about this stuff than I am. Feel free to correct me where I've got it wrong.

 

I actually don't think that this non-dual approach is compatible with rational virtues. And I think for the same reason that nihilism is incompatible (to not go too far off topic). That is that the goal of a philosophical life is self esteem, efficacy, worth and ultimately happiness, through a dedication to understanding the world objectively, being personally responsible and living in line with your values. Whereas the nihilist / non-dualist rejects objectivity, rejects any self to be responsible or irresponsible for, and proposing values that by definition cannot be exercised since they are defined as contradictions (true nor false, real nor unreal, good nor bad).

 

It would seem to me that they are the antithesis of the other.

 

Don't get me wrong, I share a lot of the same conclusions as these thinkers, but the methodology, the framework for establishing truth, is (in my estimation) logically fatal at best, and potentially dangerous at worst. In that way, I can't imagine how they could be stepping stones like you said, but apparently they are for some people since there are so many viewers who identify (ironically) as non-dual.

 

So that's where I'm coming from. A lot of generalizing, but I think it's true enough.

[Mishelle]

Could you help me understand what is the "non-dual approach"?!  I came to Stef out of a lack in the work in rationality!  In thinking!  I really get that I'm behind in the philosophy, but I really did see there was a gap in speaking of virtue and objective truth in the spiritual path, that's how I found myself searching again and found Stef. 

[Holo Cene]

Kevin I don't know everything about his work to be sure, but I think it's important to recognize that not everyone comes to the truth through a straight path or through philosophy.  Tolle, and other spiritual teachers like Ken Wilbur and Chopra, can be a stepping-stone out of the matrix for a lot of folks.  Not all they say has to be true or logical for it to resonate and for me nihilism was not come to philosophically.  When all around you is falsehood and you know it and one more step in the game makes you want to puke, that's also nihilism to me, maybe I'm over-reaching with that definition.

Here in a nutshell is the difference between Stef and the "evolutionary philosophers/spiritual gurus" or whatever they want to call themselves:

 

"You can't stand the world because it has lost its soul."

and

"You can't stand the world because it has lost its virtue."

 

In essence they are so similar!

 

The difference between the two is so profound, they should not be confused. Soul is a vague term meant to reference some immeasurable essence that has no property or value, other than to assuage confusion. Virtue on the other hand is a clear and decisive moral reference that clearly sets a boundary on responsibility and awareness. If one is selling a product, one must avoid making any hard distinctions that will cause discomfort or hardship. Claiming the soul is broken and that a guru can heal that soul or has knowledge of the right way, is a sure sign of deception. Essentially it is a marketing strategy meant to take resources from miserable people. 

[Mishelle]

So the soul is broken or virtue is broken or all of us are miserable meat for marketing.

What are you saying really? what is profound?  What about virtue is clear to you?  If I wasn't swimming in a polluted fish bowl maybe I could see it too. You sound like you want me to believe you've walked the streets of Calcutta, bro. Step off the high horse, if for no other reason than a celebration of the winter solstice

[Holo Cene]

So the soul is broken or virtue is broken or all of us are miserable meat for marketing.

What are you saying really? what is profound?  What about virtue is clear to you?  If I wasn't swimming in a polluted fish bowl maybe I could see it too. You sound like you want me to believe you've walked the streets of Calcutta, bro. Step off the high horse, if for no other reason than a celebration of the winter solstice

 

I am definitely rocking my high horse for Christmas. It isn't personal, my horse was just born with really long legs. That being said, I didn't intend to imply anything other than the systems of thought and accountability in either Deepak or Tolle is at the very least suspect, never mind the marketing to unhappy people part, because that was just my conjecture. Is dirty fishbowls a euphemism?

[Mishelle]

Q: What's the difference between someone who is religious and someone who is spiritual? 

A:  The religious person is afraid of hell, the spiritual person has been there.

 

What's the worst thing that's ever happened to you?  Been to war?  Seen someone murdered? Been raped?  These aren't just "unhappy" people, these are broken people, and anything or anyone who helps in the fixing deserves respect and those people who need help deserve some compassion.

[Lians]

Q: What's the difference between someone who is religious and someone who is spiritual? 

A:  The religious person is afraid of hell, the spiritual person has been there.

 

What's the worst thing that's ever happened to you?  Been to war?  Seen someone murdered? Been raped?  These aren't just "unhappy" people, these are broken people, and anything or anyone who helps in the fixing deserves respect and those people who need help deserve some compassion.

 

Where I come from, religious people are praised and admired for their piety, while followers of spiritual movements are mocked and berated for being a bunch of "loony cultists." Your post really helped me reassess some of my thoughts and feelings on the matter. I'll share this experience in case someone finds it useful.

 

I found myself automatically siding with the culture that indoctrinated me. Looking inwards, I also found that, relative to the spiritual people, I had a lot more compassion for religious folks. I'm not particularly fond of unconscious biases, so I gave this some further thought.

 

While there are certainly a lot of parallels, religion and spiritualism are also different in some key aspects. Pretty much all people are coerced into religion from a very young age. In contrast, the spiritual path is, typically, chosen much later in life; it's more voluntary relative to religion. Moreover, I've never heard of spiritual leaders advocating violence. The priests, on the other hand, have a long history of inciting wars. I've never heard of a spiritual alcoholic beating the shit out of his wife and kids either.

 

From an abstract standpoint, religion seems to be more dangerous. What about the followers? In my experience, spiritual people come from pretty wretched backgrounds and most of them, in their search for alternatives, choose to abandon the comfort of religion. Religious communities are certainly known for covering up severe abuse and I think this might have something to do with it. Lovers of philosophy excepted, why would you reject community support and live a life of scorn and mockery?

 

To me, it seems much harder to break the mental bonds of spiritualism compared to abandoning religion, and that's why I considered the ideology to be more dangerous. I never really questioned the logic behind this assumption.

 

In order to keep this short, I'll equate religion to a virus and spiritualism to a drug. Only people in desperate need turn to drugs for salvation. If spiritual people come from more painful backgrounds, it would make perfect sense for them to have more difficulty in embracing philosophy. This means that I should have more compassion for them, not less.

 

Thanks for helping me address a gap in my capacity for empathy, Mishelle! I'll mull this over some more and I'd love to hear your thoughts as well!

[Kevin Beal]

Q: What's the difference between someone who is religious and someone who is spiritual? 

A:  The religious person is afraid of hell, the spiritual person has been there.

 

What's the worst thing that's ever happened to you?  Been to war?  Seen someone murdered? Been raped?  These aren't just "unhappy" people, these are broken people, and anything or anyone who helps in the fixing deserves respect and those people who need help deserve some compassion.

I don't think this is fair at all.

 

There are plenty of religious people who've been to war, witnessed murder and been raped. Definitely more than spiritual people. I feel very confident saying that religious people have lived a hell on earth. I know some of them personally.

 

Also, no one deserves compassion. Compassion is an involuntary response to seeing other people suffer. And sometimes not even then, since a lot of people suffer as a result of their own poor choices. I feel for people who make bad decisions, but at some point, after they've refused to learn from their mistakes I stop feeling compassion. And this applies to many spiritualists I've met.

 

The intellectualized defense of dismissing honest pride or true rationality or healthy certainty that spiritual people often do eventually becomes the personality.

 

I have tried to compassionately and patiently reason people out of their spirituality. That has never gone unpunished. And frankly I've come to resent that whole approach that you are suggesting.

 

Now, I try and be a little more direct, since life is short and I've got things I want to accomplish.

 

So, to that end:

 

This thread has been completely derailed.

 

There is a serious problem in nihilism that many (if not most) varieties of spiritualism share. That is the rejection of reality, truth and morality. That is a serious goddam problem that corrodes the last remnants of the true self we have left after broken childhoods. And I regard people who serve to kill other people's true selves in this way as highly immoral. It's not just a mental health issue, it's a moral one.

 

I don't know what expression your own spirituality took and maybe it's a much healthier and honest one, but that doesn't matter in the slightest since the point of this thread is to shuck off unhealthy nihilism, embrace reality, truth and morality.

 

You are not serving that end by recommending spiritualists. You don't serve an alcoholic by telling them to try another form of alcohol. In fact, you'd say it was pretty damn irresponsible.

 

You did not address my very serious criticisms. If you accept them, then you maybe ought to take back the advice. If you don't accept it, then tell me where I've made my error.

 

Sorry to be so blunt, but this thread is not about your opinions on spirituality. Start another thread if you like.

[Mishelle]

You seem to have missed my post just before your rant:

 

Could you help me understand what is the "non-dual approach"?!  I came to Stef out of a lack in the work in rationality!  In thinking!  I really get that I'm behind in the philosophy, but I really did see there was a gap in speaking of virtue and objective truth in the spiritual path, that's how I found myself searching again and found Stef.

 

No worries, let's try again.

 

I would challenge you, Stef, or anyone to tell the heroine addict that the answer to his trauma is virtue, rationality and reason.

 

Why is it you get so heated up in a simple conversation trying to help a dude out.  Give me a fucking break.

 

Please excuse me Kevin and all great philosophers who I have offended here, let me bow out of this conversation now for being so crazy and irrational.

[Holo Cene]

You seem to have missed my post just before your rant:

 

Could you help me understand what is the "non-dual approach"?!  I came to Stef out of a lack in the work in rationality!  In thinking!  I really get that I'm behind in the philosophy, but I really did see there was a gap in speaking of virtue and objective truth in the spiritual path, that's how I found myself searching again and found Stef.

 

No worries, let's try again.

 

I would challenge you, Stef, or anyone to tell the heroine addict that the answer to his trauma is virtue, rationality and reason.

 

Why is it you get so heated up in a simple conversation trying to help a dude out.  Give me a fucking break.

 

Please excuse me Kevin and all great philosophers who I have offended here, let me bow out of this conversation now for being so crazy and irrational.

 

 

I think some kind of answer to pain and suffering is what these spiritualist's offer. When their answers fall short as they usually do, a new search must begin anew for a different source of information and teaching that is more aligned with reality and thus offer a path or solution to the problems that we face. The spiritual teacher/guru might offer a stopgap in terms of a solution that feels good but has no lasting effects, since it has gimmicks that do not address the fundamental issue, which is our histories. The formative years of our lives have had tremendous impacts upon how we view and interact with the world around us. A philosopher like Stefan helps us to relearn how to interact with reality by setting stringent standards of rationality and empiricism to every proposition and theory we come across. 

[Mishelle]

Thank you HC for understanding the path to rationality is not straight and narrow.  I would say, rarely is. The mind must be healed before rationality can gain any foothold.  If the stopgap helps someone survive the next leap, heaven bless

OK sorry, really that I would bow out of the conversation for that was sooo passive aggressive of me.  Sort of. Not really. Just trying to prove a point. Maybe not so good at it. But, Kevin and I need to draw swords I see, as this has happened now more than once.

 

Anyway, Lians,

 

"From an abstract standpoint, religion seems to be more dangerous. What about the followers? In my experience, spiritual people come from pretty wretched backgrounds and most of them, in their search for alternatives, choose to abandon the comfort of religion. Religious communities are certainly known for covering up severe abuse and I think this might have something to do with it. Lovers of philosophy excepted, why would you reject community support and live a life of scorn and mockery?

 

To me, it seems much harder to break the mental bonds of spiritualism compared to abandoning religion, and that's why I considered the ideology to be more dangerous. I never really questioned the logic behind this assumption.

 

In order to keep this short, I'll equate religion to a virus and spiritualism to a drug. Only people in desperate need turn to drugs for salvation. If spiritual people come from more painful backgrounds, it would make perfect sense for them to have more difficulty in embracing philosophy. This means that I should have more compassion for them, not less.

 

I believe you are really hitting it when you equate spiritualism to drugs.  But how desperate, really?  Considering more people in the US use drugs of some sort than do not.

 

I don't like to doll out "shoulds" I really don't!  But if we are talking about what's going to heal individuals, in order to heal the world, one of the "shoulds" should be, "stop using should!" LOL

 

The spiritual movement is not the enemy, and could be the friend, that's all I've been trying to say here sometimes, while getting a bit of what feels to me like more indoctrinated bullshit.

[Lians]

I believe you are really hitting it when you equate spiritualism to drugs.  But how desperate, really?  Considering more people in the US use drugs of some sort than do not.

 

Should have made this clearer, but I was talking about drugs like heroin. It's a well known fact (read Gabor Mate on this) that addicts use drugs like heroin to self-medicate. The suffering they went through is far greater compared to your average person.

 

I don't like to doll out "shoulds" I really don't!  But if we are talking about what's going to heal individuals, in order to heal the world, one of the "shoulds" should be, "stop using should!" LOL

 

The should in my post is a reference to having consistent principles. I'm fully on board with having no unchosen positive obligations. Thing is, if I do decide to extend kindness and compassion, it should be proportional to the severity of the victim's suffering. This is a personal principle. I didn't fully recognize the difficulties that spiritual people are facing until today, and I have you to thank for that.

 

The spiritual movement is not the enemy, and could be the friend, that's all I've been trying to say here sometimes, while getting a bit of what feels to me like more indoctrinated bullshit.

 

I think this is a matter of perspective. Let me explain.

 

I went through an Alex Jones phase before joining FDR. I won't recommend his show to anyone, but I'm also aware that I needed a validation of my anger to help me get through the initial fear of consistent rationality. Alex served this purpose at the time. In other words, I fully sympathise with people who come to this place through him, but I won't send anyone to his place. I don't like the guy, but I'm also grateful that he's a stepping stone for many free thinkers. I'm perfectly comfortable with feeling ambivalent about him. Ambivalence gives me the greatest range of possible action.

 

Is it good or is it bad for Stef to go on his show? I don't know. The captain has a much better perspective on where the FDR flagship is going, so I trust his decisions. If I could make the for or against argument, I'd let him know about it. I can't do that, but I can sure as hell punch countless holes through both positions.

 

Here's another thing that I learned pretty late in my involvement with FDR. You are not like most people. This may seem obvious, but again, let me explain.

 

The vast majority of Alex Jones' listeners will never come to FDR. Alex is their be all and end all when it comes to learning about the world. You could even argue that a lot of them may have been better off never finding his show. I think there's some merit to this speculation, but I nonetheless respect their choice and judge them for it!

 

There are a lot of things I'd recommend, but the Alex Jones show is not one of them. I simply don't know if the person I'm sending there won't get hooked on conspiracy theories, never to seek philosophy again. I don't want their tinfoil downfall on my conscience!

 

Similarly, you, unlike the vast majority of spiritualists, chose to learn philosophy. I admire the courage and foresight it took to make this decision. However, it's important to recognize that, in choosing to come here, you're not like most people. We who love reason and self-knowledge are probably the most hated group of people in the world (evil atheists and crazy anarchists). Since you're not like most people, you should be very careful when extrapolating your experiences and making generalized statements based on that. Do mind the complexity is all I'm suggesting. I'm no saint in this regard since I've made the same mistake many times in the past.

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

All of the above being said, I agree that the path to rationality is not a straight line. Mine was pretty wobbly.

[Kevin Beal]

You seem to have missed my post just before your rant:

 

Could you help me understand what is the "non-dual approach"?!

This was literally the content of everything I've addressed to you at this point. I didn't respond because I would be repeating myself, and if you were to ask me despite that, it would seem pointless to do it again.

 

 

 

I would challenge you, Stef, or anyone to tell the heroine addict that the answer to his trauma is virtue, rationality and reason.

The point of mental health is to accurately assess and effectively work through the world. It's the model of mental health presented by stef in the A Theory of Mental Health series. It's also the whole point of the book The Psychology of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden. It's actually a very commonly accepted thing among psychologists (not so much virtue necessarily, but you get the point).

 

Addicts don't have a healthy relationship with reason and virtue. The ex post facto reasoning they do in order to justify the next high and the avoiding of the delayed gratification. Hitting bottom means they no longer can rationalize their behavior being that the logic is inescapable.

 

I have known addicts who've used truthisms they picked up from their gurus in order to justify destructive behavior. People close to me that I care about.

 

To me, this is very personal. But I've made a concerted effort to use logic to make my case for me. If there is something wrong with the logic, then please let me know. I really don't appreciate the passive aggression, it's unbefitting of a philosophy forum.

 

 

 

Why is it you get so heated up in a simple conversation trying to help a dude out.  Give me a fucking break.

This was the whole point of the last post I made that you took issue with. It's a moral issue and is potentially dangerous. I was more than reasonable, but you refused to actually address anything I was saying. So then I decided to be more direct.

 

Before you ask me questions, you should actually read what I've written.

 

 

 

OK sorry, really that I would bow out of the conversation for that was sooo passive aggressive of me.  Sort of. Not really. Just trying to prove a point. Maybe not so good at it. But, Kevin and I need to draw swords I see, as this has happened now more than once.

Not only was the comment in question passive aggressive, so is this one. And so is avoiding the content of what I'm saying and then rejecting me being blunt about it. That's a problem.

 

And I honestly don't know what you're talking about. What has happened more than once? And draw swords? What does that mean? If you can actually provide a counter argument, that'd be great. That's what I've tried to do. And I asked you 3 times now to show me the errors I'm making or concede the point.

 

 

 

The spiritual movement is not the enemy, and could be the friend, that's all I've been trying to say here sometimes, while getting a bit of what feels to me like more indoctrinated bullshit.

It feels like indoctrinated bullshit? Show how it is! Don't just take offense and think you've done anything. I did take offense, and then I used reason to present a case. You are clearly taking offense and doing absolutely nothing to make your case. It's just projection, and you should own it.

 

If anybody else wants to point out any errors I've made or criticisms they have of what I said, then please do so.

[Mishelle]

Q: How did you get out of nihilism?

A: Apparently not in the right way according to Kevin.

[Kevin Beal]

Q: How did you get out of nihilism?

A: Apparently not in the right way according to Kevin.

That doesn't even make sense. That's not an answer to the question. If you are going to make immature snarky comments, at least have them make at least some sense.

 

Here's an example of what I mean:

 

Q: How do you present a case?

A: By swearing dramatically, avoiding every criticism and acting hypocritically.

 

Also, I wasn't the one who downvoted your post in case you thought I did.

[Mishelle]

It makes total sense--you are telling me the way I got myself out of nihilism is wrong. You never asked me to make a case, you just started criticizing how I did it and called me irresponsible for sharing my experience in this thread.

Lians, thanks for your thoughtful reply, I understand what you are trying to say.

 

  "I know the spiritual part is not the right answer for folks here, but it worked for me."  This is what I wrote.   Do you really think advising to read Tolle or Wilbur is going to keep someone away from philosophy? They are philosophers! 

 

I also think Alex Jones is a good stepping stone and if only 1 in 1,000 make their way from there to here, I think it's worth it to churn out a few tinfoil hats. Conspiracy theory is a great first step to critical thinking, as long as you keep stepping into it further.

 

I appreciate the kind way you expressed your thoughts on this very much.  I will not be refraining from sharing my experience just because they don't fit in with the culture here.

 

BTW, I did read Maté's book, it's excellent. He makes a very strong case for not ever forcing any addict to give up their drug cocktail of choice until they are stable in their lives and are ready to give them up on their own.

[Lians]

I will not be refraining from sharing my experience just because they don't fit in with the culture here.

 

Never do! I've certainly benefited from the different perspective that you've shared.

 

BTW, I did read Maté's book, it's excellent. He makes a very strong case for not ever forcing any addict to give up their drug cocktail of choice until they are stable in their lives and are ready to give them up on their own.

 

That's a good point. In my experience, this is true even for more subtle forms of addiction. It took me a while to acquire enough philosophy and self-knowledge to bust open the gates of history and stop being drawn to managing other people's false selves. When I did that, a part of me tried to tempt me with the sweet nothingness of nihilism, but it was nothing a good old Socratic questioning couldn't resolve. Having UPB in your fight against evil, in its many forms, is like driving a tank amidst a medieval battlefield.

[cynicist]

If I remember correctly, Tolle is a kind of nihilist, insofar as he rejects objective reality, truth and morality. His "non-dualism" means embracing contradiction as truth, right? The dualism being truth vs falsehood, or right vs wrong, or real vs unreal. He essentially says that the mind invents meaning where there really is none (ostensibly).

 

If that's true, I wouldn't consider his writing good for getting out of a nihilistic mindset. Just the opposite, really.

 

I'm not an expert on Tolle but his ideas are similar to what Stefan has discussed about the true/false self. His stuff is about being present in the moment, conscious of what is going on in your mind. Unfortunately he mixes those ideas with irrational deepities such as "Time is an illusion" and "Dogmas--religious, political, scientific--arise out of erroneous belief that thought can encapsulate reality or truth."

 

 

The function of the nihilism seemed to be to make my depression out to be healthy and the state where I'm most "honest". In other words, it's okay that I feel afloat unsure of myself because (ostensibly) everybody else is floating too and they are deluded, only pretending to be ship captains.

 

This is the most seductive aspect of nihilism; Half of it is actually true. Most people are only pretending to know anything, and when there are so few resources that are logically consistent like FDR it is hard to find a foothold in reality. The lingering doubt and cynicism can be healthy, but only as long as they don't extend to cover logic and empiricism, without which you end up lost.

 

 

The spiritual movement is not the enemy, and could be the friend, that's all I've been trying to say here sometimes, while getting a bit of what feels to me like more indoctrinated bullshit.

 

Even Stefan has said that there is common ground between the philosophy discussed here on FDR and christianity (about morality being absolute and real) but that doesn't mean we should recommend christian teachings as a good starting point for UPB. This is not to equate the spiritual movement and christianity, just to illustrate the principle behind what I'm saying, which is that even though there are similarities between what some of those people are saying and FDR, the approach taken here is fundamentally in opposition to theirs.

 

I think the reason why Kevin is arguing against your recommendations is because nihilism is a rejection of principles and most philosophers besides Stefan range from being vague to outright oppositional to them. I like a lot of what Tolle says on consciousness but he says some dangerous things too. I know you are only recommending him because he helped you and therefore could help others but maybe a label of caution in regards to some of the things he says would prevent a long debate (or any hurt feelings) between you and Kevin in the future

 

(I'm not saying you should do or change anything, it's just a suggestion)

[Mishelle]

Thank you Lians and cynicist for presenting your thoughts to me in such a pleasant and non-confrontational way.  It certainly makes it easier to hear you.  I did think I put a "label of caution" on it when I said "I know the spiritual part is not the right answer for folks here, but it worked for me." I can see now that was not enough context and I will work harder next time as you suggest.  I did move away from the spiritual movement because of just what you say, some of it is dangerous.

 

If Kevin, or anyone, in future would like to engage me further in some sort of "debate" I'd ask that you begin by showing honest curiosity and ask a question or two--"beginner's mind" was a very valuable tool I learned from Depak.  That said, I am still a student, as are we all.  This is an important topic to me, the driving force in my life is to help evolve our world, which was the despair that pushed into the movement in the first place.

 

Nihilism and addiction share several similar qualities at their core.  I realize here some of you maybe using more of a theoretical definition of nihilism, but for me it was an EXPERIENCE of nihilism.  There was no reasoning happening in my head, this was nothing anyone could have reasoned me out of.  It didn't take philosophy, virtue, truth--those things were totally meaningless to me!  It took love, compassion, understanding, kind people, prayer, meditation, mindful awareness, and a shit-ton of work in becoming the existential detective of my inner emotional world,

 

Tolle was quoted often in Maté's book.  Here's one I particularly like:

 

"Basically, all emotions are modifications of one primordial, undifferentiated emotion that has its origin in the loss of awareness of who you are beyond name and form.  Because of its undifferentiated nature, it is hard to find a name that precisely describes this emotion. "Fear" comes close, but apart from a continuous sense of threat, it also includes a deep sense of abandonment and incompleteness. It may be best to use a term that is as undifferentiated as that basic emotion and simply call it "pain". (413)

 

The experience of nihilism and addiction share another very deep common component--hopelessness.  The feeling that the world is a total shit hole and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, so why try.  The spiritualists help you to see the world with eyes of compassion that starts with oneself, and it works.  And I will continue to try to explain why and how it might work as a first step toward greater rational philosophy and UPB.

 

IMO, if a book alone, or a girlfriend, or a new sport, or a philosophy can snap you out of nihilism, then we did not experience the same degree of it.  I must have had the heroine version where maybe there is a marijuana version as well.

 

I apologize that I do not understand "non-dualism" and that I allowed Kevin's aggression to cloud my responses.

[cynicist]

Thank you Lians and cynicist for presenting your thoughts to me in such a pleasant and non-confrontational way.  It certainly makes it easier to hear you.  I did think I put a "label of caution" on it when I said "I know the spiritual part is not the right answer for folks here, but it worked for me." I can see now that was not enough context and I will work harder next time as you suggest.  I did move away from the spiritual movement because of just what you say, some of it is dangerous.

 

Right on, I assumed you wouldn't be here otherwise.

 

Nihilism and addiction share several similar qualities at their core.  I realize here some of you maybe using more of a theoretical definition of nihilism, but for me it was an EXPERIENCE of nihilism.  There was no reasoning happening in my head, this was nothing anyone could have reasoned me out of.  It didn't take philosophy, virtue, truth--those things were totally meaningless to me!  It took love, compassion, understanding, kind people, prayer, meditation, mindful awareness, and a shit-ton of work in becoming the existential detective of my inner emotional world...

 

The experience of nihilism and addiction share another very deep common component--hopelessness.  The feeling that the world is a total shit hole and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, so why try.  The spiritualists help you to see the world with eyes of compassion that starts with oneself, and it works.  And I will continue to try to explain why and how it might work as a first step toward greater rational philosophy and UPB.

 

IMO, if a book alone, or a girlfriend, or a new sport, or a philosophy can snap you out of nihilism, then we did not experience the same degree of it.  I must have had the heroine version where maybe there is a marijuana version as well.

 

I apologize that I do not understand "non-dualism" and that I allowed Kevin's aggression to cloud my responses.

 

I find your thoughts on nihilism enjoyable to read and similar to my own. When I talk about nihilism being a rejection of principles, primarily truth, I'm referring to the truth of your emotional experience as well. Subjectively speaking, I think the key to solving it has to do with finding hope or potential in yourself or the world around you to combat the hopelessness. This doesn't require rigorous philosophical principles but I think they can serve that purpose really well, even better than other things that you might change your mind on. I mean after learning so much here, nobody is going to talk me out of objective truth for example. I find comfort in having that level of certainty about some aspect of reality. It makes me feel grounded. Whether it's through objective principles or getting in touch with your feelings having some connection to what is true keeps you from floating between social fictions and feeling dissociated.

[Kevin Beal]

Concerning the idea that something helped me so I should recommend it to others

 

This is actually not (alone) sufficient reason to prescribe something to other people. First of all, how do you know it helped you? Helped you as compared to what?

 

I got into politics as a communist initially. By identifying that way and maintaining that identity I ended up learning a lot about political theory. Similarly, I considered myself a nihilist in the true sense of the word, bordering on solipsism. During that skeptical phase I was able to (reasonably) reject some pretty core things that are really terrible things like the idea that lying to people is helping them, and this sort of thing.

 

I actually kind of appreciate nihilism in some respects, and some of Nietzsche's stuff, and skepticism in general.

 

But I am not going to recommend nihilism to anyone (or communism for that matter). I would actually feel gross and ashamed to prescribe these things to people.

 

 

Concerning a right or wrong way

 

At the very least you have to accept that there is a right and wrong way of getting out of nihilism. The problems of nihilism come in many facets, but I'm sure we can all agree on the rejection of truth, the world and morality (and I'd include: the self).

 

Non-dualism is addressing the dualism of the mind and body, or the subjective experience of consciousness and the material world. The "solution" non-dualists offer is that neither is real or true. And these non-dual gurus make money from lying to people about this non-answer. And this non-answer can get people in some real trouble (such as when it is used to justify and excuse destructive behavior).

 

In medicine, there is sometimes a need to inflict an illness to treat a bigger illness. (I can't actually remember why, but it is possible.) In these (extraordinarily) rare cases there is a lot of work done to make sure that this not going to overwhelm the patient's immune system and make things worse, or that the new disease won't grab too great a hold.

 

It may be that Tolle is a good way out of nihilism. That's possible, I guess. But at best it's counterintuitive, and at worst it's destructive. So either an explanation is necessary or the prescription should be abandoned.

 

 

Concerning debate

 

The way that people learn is not to hear conclusions, but to hear arguments, listen to people present a case. Or provide lots of context, failing that. "Read Tolle" doesn't help me to understand what I'm supposed to do with that. What is the methodology that Tolle provides for getting out of a nihilistic mindset?

 

I did ask questions, brought up where I wanted clarification and asked if my analysis was correct.

[wdiaz03]

There are a lot of things I'd recommend, but the Alex Jones show is not one of them. I simply don't know if the person I'm sending there won't get hooked on conspiracy theories, never to seek philosophy again. I don't want their tinfoil downfall on my conscience!

 

Similarly, you, unlike the vast majority of spiritualists, chose to learn philosophy. I admire the courage and foresight it took to make this decision. However, it's important to recognize that, in choosing to come here, you're not like most people. We who love reason and self-knowledge are probably the most hated group of people in the world (evil atheists and crazy anarchists). Since you're not like most people, you should be very careful when extrapolating your experiences and making generalized statements based on that. Do mind the complexity is all I'm suggesting. I'm no saint in this regard since I've made the same mistake many times in the past.

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

All of the above being said, I agree that the path to rationality is not a straight line. Mine was pretty wobbly.

 

Lians, Reading your post reminded me of Stef comments regarding the Ron Paul movement, I believe he called it an early exit on the highway of truth or something like that. I remember thinking that Rom Paul was my way of getting here so it could not be that bad, but reading your post you make a valid point. Some people like me can quickly see it as a distraction and get back on the road, but maybe for many others its like a sticky fly trap they can't easily leave. Your thoughts?

[Lians]

Lians, Reading your post reminded me of Stef comments regarding the Ron Paul movement, I believe he called it an early exit on the highway of truth or something like that. I remember thinking that Rom Paul was my way of getting here so it could not be that bad, but reading your post you make a valid point. Some people like me can quickly see it as a distraction and get back on the road, but maybe for many others its like a sticky fly trap they can't easily leave. Your thoughts?

 

I fully agree. To clarify a little more, the Alex Jones metaphor is exaggerated on purpose. The mistakes I made were much more subtle and revolved around thinking I can get people to accept philosophy if they were on the same path that I walked in the past. It was very manipulative and it never worked. Borrowing the AJ metaphor again, it would be like me trying to hook people on the less volatile conspiracy theories, so they could eventually arrive at hardcore philosophy.

[Mishelle]

So I'm almost finished with the segments posted above and am really appreciating them, thanks for including them here Kevin.

What immediately struck as exactly me was in the first one: "Nihilism comes from sour grapes" and out of a desperate idealism that is so frustrated.  YES!  And of curse I really resonate with the idea that we need to find a way to help people get here more quickly, instead of the roundabout ways it seems many of us have come.  I'm going to keep my focus there for a while as I consider your comments and listen to the final audio.

[Mishelle]

OK this conversation has become borderline amazing for me, thank y'all!

 

Not that I've processed through it all, but the role-play in the first interview was very cool.  They were both very effective and I could see very much how something like that in the arts (kinda like 'the conversation' piece) would be good.  In it I found myself in that place again responding to the earlier quote I liked: "Yes, sour grapes, cause the grapes are fucking sour asshole!" hehe

 

I also thought, unfortunately nihilism is the cultural push at the moment, it seems to me.  It's like Alex Jones--"if you're not pissed off you're not paying attention."  I realize he's not a nihilist, but he's attitude, comportment and some theories seem kinda the same.  Still, I still listen on occasion!  I like entertainment as much as the next girl.

 

I noticed Stef said in the last one, ". . . fight for your soul."  Hmmm, soul?  That pesky evasive language!

 

The best of it all though, was "You won't take up arms against the darkness!"  And this is exactly it. He summed up right there what the lack was in the spirituality movement is for me.  They think they are doing this, they want to do this, I really believe.  But I didn't feel they were really taking up arms, I felt they were trying to build cathedrals in a swamp.  "Building the plane as we're flying it," they say.  Hmmm, I don't think that product would last long in the market