Addressing My Parents

[Coreforcruxes]

I have mostly made my mind up about how I am going to handle this but I would like some feedback (do you see something I am missing?) if any are willing to read my novel of a post, thanks ahead of time.Back in August i made it clear that I had probems with my parents both to them and surrounding family. My father did not just spank, he whipped and hit (twice I can recall) I think the last time I was 15 and yelled and was emotionally abusive and would humiliate. Growing up I "toughed" it out and planned my great escape at 18, then all of the sudden when I started to become more independent he became more reasonable and nice... imagine that. I spent the next 9 years being angry about how I had been treated growing up but having "forgiven" him and having even talked about it in unproductive ways. And my mothers main guilt is in allowing that and occaissionaly being the instigator or threatening with his violence.

 

Now, I do not intend to make any excuses for them but in the past couple months I have become less enraged and traumatized by things (or suppressed those feelings) and am trying to assess everything before I address them. There are some facets of my parents that I genuinely did admire growing up compared to the families and culture I saw around me. I had no doubt that my parents loved each other and at least lived up to their standard for love in regards to their children. And when myself and my brothers were getting older my mother did come to us concerned about how we felt with the way we were raised. Having been blatantly conditioned to sympathize with her, I assured her that she had been great but basically dad was a hardass and a dick, a thing we did not hide but we also displayed some kind of unhealthy stock-holmian "respect".

 

I have put off addressing them because I knew that the way I felt I would be out to hurt them and I was pretty sure the outcome would be dissassociation. I would like to keep the relationship, IF, I can be confident that it is healthy and mutually beneficial AND IF I can maintain the relationship and not limit my horizons emotionally and spiritually (philosophically speaking).

In Christmas (I was not present, I made it clear I would not participate this year)  my Father and older brother had a falling out. He called to tell me that he was drafting papers to insure he could not inherit anything and he wanted to know if I wanted to be added to the list. I held no quarter with him and the conversation ended with him cutting me off and saying "you're done!".

 

I feel like I don't want to expose myself vulnerably to them, I want to yell and judge and go over a list of crimes... a part of me wants to hurt them and that feels sadistic, and I don't want to feed my sadism or would it be being evil to evil? would I be being the champion of a damaged child?

 

My Father has a history of threatening more than he is willing to follow through with, and it was relayed to me that they were pretty broken up at a family gathering. My Mother called me yesterday "Just to say I love you" and let me know that she would call from time to time. She asked me if I loved her and the truth is that my feelings were conflicted,what I told her was that while dealing with them I wanted to be very sure not to sympathise with them, and asked if she understood, she said she did.

 

I plan on writing them a letter and letting them know my position and feelings. If they want to meet after that i am open to it.a couple questions I have is; should I let them know what behaviors/responses of theirs would satisfy me? or would I be poisoning the well to my being manipulated?

 

Should I let them know about my method (personal history, self observation, psychology, philosophy) in dealing with this or is that some kind of "emotional state" deferral ("I'd rather not do it this way but the text book says I can't empathize with you"); or, is it what I make it?

 

If I see them face to face should I let them see my pain or anger? or let nature dictate all of this. I have an impule to empathise with them but right now I am supressing it until I see remose/virtue in their position and actions.

 

Thanks in advance to any who add their two cents in any capacity.

 

 

[Coreforcruxes]

I am kinda bummed that I am not getting any love on this post so i will donate an extra $5 for the month (beyond my usual $20) if I get at least one decent reply, I know $5 is nothing compared to the value in some of the folks heres opinions but It is something. Thanks all.

[Annick]

I saw your post yesterday but didn't have enough time to write a thoughtful answer then.

 

I am sorry that you have such a shitty family. Lots of things you say remind me of my own journey in recovering from a destructive upbringing. I want to encourage you on your path to discover your truth.

 

One of my first questions to you is ... what is your real, deep motivation when you think about confronting them ? What are your expectations ? You say that you want to see some remorse or virtue in their positions and actions. And what if they don't give you any of that ? What if the only thing they can give you in return is just some more manipulation games ? 

 

When we are kids, we need to know that we are loved by our parents because it is vital, our life depends on it. Which is why we love them even when we are severely abused. In my own experience, I have found that, even as I was very actively working on learning how to love myself as an adult and recover from the abuse, that deep yearning to be finally seen and loved by my parents was still very alive, very deep within me. And I confronted them several times. And every time, I had the feeling that I had run into a wall, once again. Because the only thing they were offering me was either denial, or excuses, or more manipulation. In the end, what helped me the most was the work I did on myself on my own, away from them. And the fantasy that one day they would acknowledge the wrong they did remained just that ... a fantasy. And in the end, their participation is not needed for us to learn and recover.

 

From your post, it sounds like you are still somewhat emotional about the whole issue and wondering if you should let the emotions come out when talking with them. I apologize for referring to my story but I am hoping that you can draw some parallels. I moved away from my country (and from my parents) and that physical distance helped me a lot in finally understanding the sick dynamics that were going on in my family. And I had the feeling that I had become a much stronger person and that I was now ready to meet them again, as a stronger adult. But every time I traveled back to meet them, I was instantly thrown back in my old position in  the family, as the stupid little girl who cannot speak up for herself. It was very discouraging as it left me every time with the feeling that my recovery was just fake, that I hadn't learned one single thing. But the reality is that their abuse, their manipulation is extremely strong and will pull us back exactly where we have been taught we belong. So it is worth taking the time to figure out exactly what you want to make of those confrontations.

 

I think that those confrontations (whether you write to them or meet with them) should be used as an opportunity for a scientific observation. It may not be possible to keep your emotional distance at the time of the meeting itself. But afterwards, take the time to step back and replay everything they said, didn't say, did, didn't do ... same thing for your own behaviors. Observe and analyze.

Don't take their words for it. Trust what you see and what you feel.

 

 

 

 

 

Now, I do not intend to make any excuses for them but in the past couple months I have become less enraged and traumatized by things (or suppressed those feelings) and am trying to assess everything before I address them. There are some facets of my parents that I genuinely did admire growing up compared to the families and culture I saw around me. I had no doubt that my parents loved each other and at least lived up to their standard for love in regards to their children. And when myself and my brothers were getting older my mother did come to us concerned about how we felt with the way we were raised. Having been blatantly conditioned to sympathize with her, I assured her that she had been great but basically dad was a hardass and a dick, a thing we did not hide but we also displayed some kind of unhealthy stock-holmian "respect".

 

 

What has made you feel less enraged recently ? I think that the only healthy way to grow is to allow ourselves to feel real anger against our abusers. As an adult, we can easily find logical explanations to their behaviors and their choices. But the little child inside you who has been hurt needs somebody to take his side, to tell him that he has been abused, that he has been hurt and that it is unacceptable, that it is a tragedy. He needs an adult to hold his hands and listen to his pain. 

 

How does your mother react when you talk to her about your father ? I have a feeling, from only a few lines, that she feels guilty and that she wants to be reassured that you love her. But her manipulation is probably way more subtle than what's coming from your father.

 

I am sorry if this post is somewhat disorganized and I apologize for the poor English. Don't give up in your attempts to find your truth. Make sure that you keep your expectations in check when you make plans to confront them. 

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

Hey Coreforcruxes,

 

This reply probably isn't worth your five bucks, but I'll throw it in there just so it doesn't sound like you're posting for echoes. Also, you just posted yesterday so maybe everyone's still drunk after Christmas.

 

I had a semi-recent situation like this with my mother that I think more or less ended once and for all any iota of an idea that she can control me. My original "De-FOOing"/runaway experience happened when I was 19, and at 26 I think I kind of drove the nail in.

 

It happened via a Skype conversation where I just simply let loose at her, not giving her an inch on anything. Even though by this point in my life (26) she was very careful when saying things to me, she would still recall episodes from my childhood that basically involved her being abusive, followed by me doing something "stupid" then getting humiliated and embarrassed. However she would love to leave her abusive part out, and just talk about how I would do something "stupid". I would usually bite my tongue when we she did this because I "didn't want to start a fight over something so small", but I realized if I let her push me around just a little bit, that was a foot in the door to push me around a little bit more.

 

Anyway, my point is, for 7 years I was afraid to push things to the limit with her like that. You know, just lay the bare truth on the table, then look up at her with a face saying, "What now, bitch?". After that happened she is really, really careful around me. She slips up accidentally sometimes (says something too bossy or whatever) but will bite it back quickly.

 

If you want to go forward with it, I would just recommend not being apologetic with anything you bring up and don't just "let them have something" because it's easier than not fighting about it. Be prepared to lose everything with them, because I'm willing to bet the instant they see they no longer have any leverage over you, they will be quickly singing another tune.

 

Hope that helps.

-Dylan

[Coreforcruxes]

In reply to Annick:

 

Thank you very much for your reply to my post and I had no idea that your english was anything other than from one native to the language. Your story helped me alot. I know that I fear getting stuck in that cycle of feeling free then falling back into the family position and later feeling like a failure for doing so, I will not accept that.

 

What is my deepest motivation with confronting them?... I don't know, I am ambivalent and conflicted. For the past couple months I have been putting it off saying i'll deal with it on my terms and timeline. though, I do have a pattern of procrastination and this is likely the thing i need to address most.

 

A part of me feels bad for them, but I try to stay conscious of how my sympathy for them is inferior to my need for acknowledgement and reprisal or closure and moving on. I have a standard for what is acceptable in a relationship with them and am willing to be patient if I see reason to be, but I am not willing to maintain a dysfunctional relationship. I guess its ok if in genuinely letting my emotions out I yell and am angry at them and let my younger self be heard. But, If I constantly have to defend myself or feel like I have taken the mantle of abuser in the long run I will also find that not acceptable, I don't want to be that person.

 

what will I do if the situation does not meet a certain standard?... I will end my relationship with them.

 

I appreciate your advice to treat it scientifically and learn from it, I will not forget to do so.

 

Thanks Annick

 

In reply to Dylan:

 

Thanks for your reply Dylan, Between you and Annick I am confident I got my moneys worth and will probably donate $10 instead of 5. What you experienced with your mother is something I feel like I have experienced with my father in the past (giving his negativity back to him) and at times I have seen him defeated for it. This last conversation on the phone I felt that he had lost the meat of his hold on me and I did not let him bully me around. But in the long run I do not want a relationship of me becoming his "abuser" not out of sympathy for him but because I don't want to be that kind of person. I need to work on an assertive stance. I am a little enthused after our confrontation I have never been so hard lined with him.

 

Thanks Dylan

[Josh F]

I have mostly made my mind up about how I am going to handle this but I would like some feedback (do you see something I am missing?) if any are willing to read my novel of a post, thanks ahead of time.Back in August i made it clear that I had probems with my parents both to them and surrounding family. My father did not just spank, he whipped and hit (twice I can recall) I think the last time I was 15 and yelled and was emotionally abusive and would humiliate. Growing up I "toughed" it out and planned my great escape at 18, then all of the sudden when I started to become more independent he became more reasonable and nice... imagine that. I spent the next 9 years being angry about how I had been treated growing up but having "forgiven" him and having even talked about it in unproductive ways. And my mothers main guilt is in allowing that and occaissionaly being the instigator or threatening with his violence.

 

Now, I do not intend to make any excuses for them but in the past couple months I have become less enraged and traumatized by things (or suppressed those feelings) and am trying to assess everything before I address them. There are some facets of my parents that I genuinely did admire growing up compared to the families and culture I saw around me. I had no doubt that my parents loved each other and at least lived up to their standard for love in regards to their children. And when myself and my brothers were getting older my mother did come to us concerned about how we felt with the way we were raised. Having been blatantly conditioned to sympathize with her, I assured her that she had been great but basically dad was a hardass and a dick, a thing we did not hide but we also displayed some kind of unhealthy stock-holmian "respect".

 

I have put off addressing them because I knew that the way I felt I would be out to hurt them and I was pretty sure the outcome would be dissassociation. I would like to keep the relationship, IF, I can be confident that it is healthy and mutually beneficial AND IF I can maintain the relationship and not limit my horizons emotionally and spiritually (philosophically speaking).

In Christmas (I was not present, I made it clear I would not participate this year)  my Father and older brother had a falling out. He called to tell me that he was drafting papers to insure he could not inherit anything and he wanted to know if I wanted to be added to the list. I held no quarter with him and the conversation ended with him cutting me off and saying "you're done!".

 

I feel like I don't want to expose myself vulnerably to them, I want to yell and judge and go over a list of crimes... a part of me wants to hurt them and that feels sadistic, and I don't want to feed my sadism or would it be being evil to evil? would I be being the champion of a damaged child?

 

My Father has a history of threatening more than he is willing to follow through with, and it was relayed to me that they were pretty broken up at a family gathering. My Mother called me yesterday "Just to say I love you" and let me know that she would call from time to time. She asked me if I loved her and the truth is that my feelings were conflicted,what I told her was that while dealing with them I wanted to be very sure not to sympathise with them, and asked if she understood, she said she did.

 

I plan on writing them a letter and letting them know my position and feelings. If they want to meet after that i am open to it.a couple questions I have is; should I let them know what behaviors/responses of theirs would satisfy me? or would I be poisoning the well to my being manipulated?

 

Should I let them know about my method (personal history, self observation, psychology, philosophy) in dealing with this or is that some kind of "emotional state" deferral ("I'd rather not do it this way but the text book says I can't empathize with you"); or, is it what I make it?

 

If I see them face to face should I let them see my pain or anger? or let nature dictate all of this. I have an impule to empathise with them but right now I am supressing it until I see remose/virtue in their position and actions.

 

Thanks in advance to any who add their two cents in any capacity.

 

 

I hit reply already into the first paragraph because it resonated so succinctly with my own experience, and as I kept reading that feeling magnified. 

 

My own history with this is that about a year and a half ago I began confronting both my parents, separately, and talking about our issues.  Like you, my dad has become a much calmer and level headed person in his old age, so conveniently.  By the end of one of our 2 hour lunches he apologized to me.  My mom and I had even longer lunches, sometimes into 6 hours.  And I kind of grew up with her being very open and aware of her own abuse as a kid, aware of my dad's abusive behavior, and always willing to comfort all parties involved.  But, as you've mentioned, I came to remember how integral she was to my abuse, not just allowing it but as a kid often using my Dad as a weapon and threat.  We also came to some kind of understanding, or so I thought.

 

Then I moved to another country, and my parents came to visit about 6 months later.  From the get go, nothing was different.  Even though they planned to spend 2 weeks in this country, we both instantly offered up and agreed with each other that we shouldn't spend more than 1 week together.  The week we spent was alright, lots of superficial chit chat and tourist stuff.  They met my girlfriend, who they seemed to like.  Though, my dad for the first time in my entire life professed to me the sexual disappointment he has in "having to fuck the same woman for the rest of his life."  We also got into some bullshit argument about intellectual property.  With my mom, we spent an hour long bus ride, where she asked my advice on how to help my sister with depression and over eating, and all I could mention at the time was that our childhood was full of verbal abuse which became self attack and eating disorders were a product of that, but that I didn't have any specific recommendations for how to undo the damage done. 

 

Anyways, fast forward to about 3 months ago I was upset at a story I heard about some cop killing a kid, and my Dad's sister mentioned something on facebook defending the cops, and I sent her a message and told her I can't keep her in my life.  Then quickly realizing my distant aunt, who I didn't even grow up with, was not the person I really wanted to defoo.  So I typed a letter to my parents telling them I didn't want them in my life any more, and inviting them to respond back one last time.  My dad's reply was that I had a chemical imbalance, was misremembering, and needed help.  My mom, which my sister told me later, basically spent 5 days confused as to why she was included, talking to my Dad about it until he convinced her I had a chemical imbalance as well, so she recommended some books. 

 

So I blocked them. And it has been really liberating, difficult, but I feel like I've made epic milestones as a result in understanding my own history, my own desires, etc.  It has brought my closer to my girlfriend, who proved really comforting almost in spite of never being exposed to this kind of thinking, and now she has begun a process on her own independently with her own family that has made me very proud.  I've got the motivation and passion to go after my dreams.  I've recovered memories!  Honestly, and I don't mean this to insult anyone else, but I only thought repressed memories were for sexual abuse victims.  I've come to wild realizations about many experiences I had previously normalized.  I kind of feel a little bit invincible, if that makes sense.

 

That being said, I don't know if contacting my parents as confrontationally was required.  Like I was already only speaking to them 4 times a year or so anyways, and lived thousands of miles away.  I think I could have sent a more passive "I'm going to think about things alone, dont worry, will talk to you again when I'm ready" and maybe reduce some anxiety I have now about them somehow contacting me.  Though, I think part of me also needed to know how they would ultimately respond. 

 

Neither one even asked a question.  It made me realize no amount of therapy or apology or restitution was possible.  It was difficult, don't get me wrong. 

 

Unfortunately, I can't really answer any of your questions with advice, I think you'll ultimately make choices you're comfortable owning.  It kind of just happens, if that even makes any sense?

 

Good luck man!!!

[DaVinci]

What I will say based on what you have said about your parents is this:

 

1) Your dad is holding you hostage with that line about being cut out of the will. That is BS and not okay. He is basically saying that he wants to buy your devotion. You are a person, not a product.

 

2) Watch out for your mom's understanding as this comes across to me as a game of "good cop, bad cop". I get the sense she is drawing you into the illusion that she is resposnsive, and cares. But at this point in your life you are already independent and apologies for the past, and understanding are really coming too late to save you from a bad childhood and might actually be very self serving behavior on  her part.

 

I think ulitmately you need to tell them how you feel without getting angry. or crying or anything. Just lay it out for them how you feel and leave it at that. They need some type of accountability for their actions and the best way to do that is to not get overly emotional about it with them.

[Annick]

 

 

I know that I fear getting stuck in that cycle of feeling free then falling back into the family position and later feeling like a failure for doing so, I will not accept that.

 

I am not sure how to make that quote thing work, but I wanted to clarify something with what you said here.

I'll tell you a little bit more of my story in order to give you the context. I left my country (Belgium) when I was 28 and that physical distance helped me move forward in my journey of discovering who I really was and why I felt so deeply fucked up (because their brainwashing had convinced me that *I* was the problem). Between the age of 28 and 35 - when I had my son - I traveled back a few times to see my family. About 6 months before each trip, I would start feeling deeply tormented and would usually do a bout of therapy. And I'd feel profoundly confused and devastated for another 6 months after coming back. But as hard as that cycle was, each time I would learn something from it and that was priceless. And then since I knew that I'd be knocked down the next time I saw them, I'd prepare for it in the way I told you, by getting myself mentally prepared to go there as an observer and not beat myself down for not having been able to stand up to them. So I would sit through the turmoil while I was there, but collect tons of observations, and then work through them with a therapist once back from hell. (And I would not stay with the same therapist for years. As soon as I could see that a therapist was blocked with their own issues, I would find one that could help me in my next step).

 

So my advice to you would be to not see it as a failure if you go through a similar cycle. Healing from abuse is a process. What surprised me the most in my years of searching is how deep the emotional damage is. Many times, I thought that I had finally understood and that I had finally healed, just to discover that the damage was way deeper than I thought. And what I realized is that healing is a process, a journey, where you discover pieces of a puzzle, and you slowly put them together. And you better enjoy the journey because nobody knows what the destination is. 

 

One important lesson for me was to discover that every time I was hard with myself, every time I was beating myself down, I was actually honoring my abusers. That is the abusers' strength. They brainwash you so well that at some point, they don't need to beat you down anymore, you will do it yourself ! (You know that little voice in your head telling you that you're never good enough). I discovered that we are not born perfectionist. But as a child, you just want to please your parents, you want to be acknowledged and loved, so you work your ass off for that goal ... that you will never reach. 

 

So remember to be gentle with yourself and enjoy the journey, focus on learning to love yourself just the way you are. 

 

 

 

 

I have a standard for what is acceptable in a relationship with them and am willing to be patient if I see reason to be, but I am not willing to maintain a dysfunctional relationship.

 

I think that's an excellent idea, having a standard of how you want to be respected, and not accept anybody who is not treating you that way.

When I stopped talking with my parents, it didn't happen in any dramatic way. 

 

I confronted my father only once, when I was 36 and when I was really clear about how fucked up he was. I was not surprised when his only game plan was straight denial of everything. So during that conversation, it became clear to me that it was the last time I was seeing him. He showed me very clearly that no conversation was possible. So I cut the visit short, and never saw him again, not even feeling the need to let him know that I was done with him.

 

With my mother, I had tried many times throughout the years to talk with her or write her letters, but she is so egocentric that she couldn't hear anything I was telling her. So I stopped trying. Then slowly, as I started loving myself more and started realizing that I would not let people disrespect me anymore, I started feeling annoyed by her empty e-mails and her attempts at manipulation when I was not taking the bait anymore. And one day, I just decided not to reply anymore, I was too tired of playing games. She made a final attempt, asking me why I was not replying and asking me to let her know if I didn't want to talk to her anymore. I realized that I didn't owe her anything and that whatever I tried to explain to her, she would just act the martyr that she thinks she is. My biggest victory was to feel perfectly content not to hit "reply" anymore. 

 

All that long story to make the point that your internal work is as interesting and valuable, if not more than trying to get something from your parents. 

 

Good luck to you.

I don't know if you heard of her, but Alice Miller's books are very interesting.

[Coreforcruxes]

 Wow, I have read all the replies and appreciate them all, Thank you so much guys.

 

Josh F:

 

 "Unfortunately, I can't really answer any of your questions with advice, I think you'll ultimately make choices you're comfortable owning.  It kind of just happens, if that even makes any sense?" - that in and of itself is beautiful advice, thanks for that and your sharing your experiences I gained a lot from reading them.

 

Da Vinci:

 

Thanks Da Vinci, I am going to try to be very aware of whether they care more about their illusion or me. In the end I won't accept them entertaining any illusions with me.

 

As to trying to keep my calm I will have to think about that, thanks for the advice.

 

Annick:

 

Annick, I really appreciate the time and effort you have spent here and I am sorry you or any here have had to deal with issues like these but I am inspired at the same time.

 

Your explanation of it being a process was very helpful, it had the effect of reducing some of my anxiety to get things perfect (a method that historically has proven to be a recipe for failure for me). Thank you very very much.

 

Funny you mention Alice Miller, I am most of the way through "The Drama of the Gifted Child". For such a small book I am finding it very difficult to get through every page or two I have to stop and reflect for awhile. I have been "reading" it for months now.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

 

 

This last conversation on the phone I felt that he had lost the meat of his hold on me and I did not let him bully me around. But in the long run I do not want a relationship of me becoming his "abuser" not out of sympathy for him but because I don't want to be that kind of person.

 

 

Self-defense isn't abuse. Throwing shit at your dad which he threw at you in the first place isn't an act of aggression. I always try to dish out exactly what I've been given and no more, just to show the abuser he's creating his own misery.

[Coreforcruxes]

I have no problems giving others what they give me, but maintaining a relationship means I have to be an asshole all the time (or feel sadistic) then that just doesn't seem kosher.

[cynicist]

I hope I'm not late or anything but some things certainly struck me about your post.

 

Now, I do not intend to make any excuses for them...

 

This is generally where the excuses start rolling in

 

I had no doubt that my parents loved each other and at least lived up to their standard for love in regards to their children.

 

Excuse #1: Did that standard of love include hitting, whipping, humiliation, and verbal aggression? Or was that just for you?

 

 And when myself and my brothers were getting older my mother did come to us concerned about how we felt with the way we were raised. Having been blatantly conditioned to sympathize with her, I assured her that she had been great but basically dad was a hardass and a dick, a thing we did not hide but we also displayed some kind of unhealthy stock-holmian "respect".

 

Excuse #2: Isn't it a bit late for your mother to be showing her concern? Wouldn't it have been helpful if she had actually done anything about the abuse while it was occcuring? By coming to you with concern now, was she actually concerned for you or did she feel guilt over her part in allowing your father to do what he did to you and want reassurance from you that she was off the hook?

 

 

I have put off addressing them because I knew that the way I felt I would be out to hurt them and I was pretty sure the outcome would be dissassociation. I would like to keep the relationship, IF, I can be confident that it is healthy and mutually beneficial AND IF I can maintain the relationship and not limit my horizons emotionally and spiritually (philosophically speaking).

In Christmas (I was not present, I made it clear I would not participate this year)  my Father and older brother had a falling out. He called to tell me that he was drafting papers to insure he could not inherit anything and he wanted to know if I wanted to be added to the list. I held no quarter with him and the conversation ended with him cutting me off and saying "you're done!".

 

You? Hurt them? I can't imagine how you expressing outrage over what happened to you as a child would be more painful to them than what they actually DID to you. (your mother included) That's not to say that you should engage with them, just that you are showing much more concern for their feelings than they have for yours which is an odd state of affairs given what you've told us so far.

 

WHAT?! You're seriously going to post that you want to keep the relationship if it can be healthy and mutually beneficial, and then follow that with how your father threatened both you and your brother with your inheritance. I know these things are hard to see but I'm shocked after reading those two sentences so close together.

 

 

If I see them face to face should I let them see my pain or anger? or let nature dictate all of this. I have an impule to empathise with them but right now I am supressing it until I see remose/virtue in their position and actions.

 

Thanks in advance to any who add their two cents in any capacity.

 

My question is this, are you sure your desire to empathize is actually yours and not their desire to have you call them? So far none of them have accepted any responsibility for what happened to you. And your situation sounded pretty hellish to me. What motivation do you have to continue seeing them? When you think about visiting them, do you feel excitement and joy or misery and dread?

 

My take on this post is that you are ignoring your mother's role as facilitator in your abuse (it would not have been possible without her participation) and you are considering pursuing a relationship with your father who not only was horribly abusive to you in the past but continues to be abusive and shows absolutely no remorse for his actions. You also seem more concerned with the moral nature of a possible backlash against your family coming from you than you are with the reality of how your parents are treating you TODAY.

 

I hope this isn't coming across as harsh, I truly am sorry for how terrible your situation is, but I think engaging with unrepentent individuals like this is a type of slave vengeance that is only going to perpetuate the abuse against yourself by keeping you locked in a cycle with them. I'm not going to tell you what you should do but I think taking a break from seeing them and possibly seeing a therapist (and definitely some more self-exploration) could help bring a clarity to this situation that you currently do not possess.

[Coreforcruxes]

Thank you for your reply cynicist, you are not too late, all week I have found it very difficult to write the letter, sitting down now to try again.

 

Thanks Everyone, I donated an extra $10 yesterday.

[DaVinci]

Thank you for your reply cynicist, you are not too late, all week I have found it very difficult to write the letter, sitting down now to try again.

 

Thanks Everyone, I donated an extra $10 yesterday.

 

So have you completely decided against telling them these thoughts in person? I wrote a big long letter to someone one time and I know it got dismissed easily. I doubt they would even read a letter that would have to be the length you need it to be to say what actually needs to be said.

[Coreforcruxes]

No, I have not totally ruled out doing it in person, but I want to at least get my thoughts down clearly on paper. Even though its tough and I am not making a whole lot of headway toward completing a letter, the process I think is helpful. I am worried about doing something in person and caving, too many years of dysfunction and manipulation.

 

I'd rather send a letter than have that happen, plus, they would be the cowards if I sent a letter like that and it went unread or dismissed. I am reminded of the beginning of one of Stefan's books, where he says "this book will change you no matter what, even if you stop reading now, you will know that you are afraid of change". (please pardon the terrible probable misquote)

[dsayers]

I'm unclear as to what you meant by "lived up to their standard for love in regards to their children". This seems incompatible with the torture, assault, and abiding/threatening of the same you described earlier.

 

I don't feel your mother gets credit for coming to you "concerned" about how you felt about the way you were raised. Unless she understood that it was wretched and genuinely interested in making it up to you, her approach is only revictimizing you for the purpose of not having to live with the consequences of her (in)actions.

 

That is so wretched hearing about the will and the direct threat made against you. Such a tiny man that would take.

 

In regards to the advice you're seeking, of course I couldn't know for sure as I'm not qualified and don't know all the details. I would say that short of violating the NAP, I wouldn't edit yourself for their comfort. Managing others is not your job and managing the emotions of your abusers is even less your job.

 

If I were you, I would pose the question to my mother "what is love?" I would present my father with evidence as to the damage he did to you and do not spare sharing your experiences. If he cares about you, he will be disgusted with himself. If he's just a sadist, he will become enraged at the very suggestion that he needs to be considerate of your experience.

 

The one thing I would revise is your desire to have them in your life. A while back, I had confronted my lifetime abusive father about his use of violence and how studying philosophy has helped me to see it for what it really is. He basically made it clear he wanted a relationship with the effects of my labor, not me, and that he rejected peaceful interaction with others. It wasn't the outcome I would've preferred, but a huge burden was lifted from me in knowing that I don't ALSO have to make efforts in that direction that will not make a difference.

 

Neither one even asked a question.  It made me realize no amount of therapy or apology or restitution was possible.

 

This is an excellent point to make. It can help to determine where a person is coming from.

[Coreforcruxes]

 

I'm unclear as to what you meant by "lived up to their standard for love in regards to their children". This seems incompatible with the torture, assault, and abiding/threatening of the same you described earlier.

 

I don't feel your mother gets credit for coming to you "concerned" about how you felt about the way you were raised. Unless she understood that it was wretched and genuinely interested in making it up to you, her approach is only revictimizing you for the purpose of not having to live with the consequences of her (in)actions.

 

That is so wretched hearing about the will and the direct threat made against you. Such a tiny man that would take.

 

In regards to the advice you're seeking, of course I couldn't know for sure as I'm not qualified and don't know all the details. I would say that short of violating the NAP, I wouldn't edit yourself for their comfort. Managing others is not your job and managing the emotions of your abusers is even less your job.

 

If I were you, I would pose the question to my mother "what is love?" I would present my father with evidence as to the damage he did to you and do not spare sharing your experiences. If he cares about you, he will be disgusted with himself. If he's just a sadist, he will become enraged at the very suggestion that he needs to be considerate of your experience.

 

The one thing I would revise is your desire to have them in your life. A while back, I had confronted my lifetime abusive father about his use of violence and how studying philosophy has helped me to see it for what it really is. He basically made it clear he wanted a relationship with the effects of my labor, not me, and that he rejected peaceful interaction with others. It wasn't the outcome I would've preferred, but a huge burden was lifted from me in knowing that I don't ALSO have to make efforts in that direction that will not make a difference.

Ultimatley, that was an excuse I was making for them. To say that they complied with their standard for love even if it was irrational.

Agreed. And thank you.

Also agreed, yeah making petty threats like that (and my seeing it that way) made it easier to address them. 

Mwwwwwa!, pure, gold.I met with them and ultimatley the sadist won out in my father... if he ever had an internal conflict. Either way I know the only practical and productive way for me to regard it. As for my mother I could not bring myself to say "what you called love, was wanting".I am sorry you did not get what you wanted from him, but I am glad you got rid of the burden. at this point (post meeting w parents) I think I know the feeling. At this point I can also say that your (and all others) post(s) here were very helpful and I am so glad I found this community.>>>I wrote a long and detailed explanation and follow up on the meeting I had with my parents, but hit a back key and lost it, I will try to post one tomorrow. 

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

 

I wrote a long and detailed explanation and follow up on the meeting I had with my parents, but hit a back key and lost it, I will try to post one tomorrow.

 

Dylan's Safe-Posting Guide:

 

Open up your favorite word processing program (one that preferably keeps formatting like italics and bold intact). Copy and paste your post periodically (not just at the end!) into this word file. Save it onto your desktop as "post". Make sure you do a final copy and paste before you send it. Once the post is viewable on the website, THEN you can delete the post.doc on your desktop. You're welcome.

[Coreforcruxes]

 

Dylan's Safe-Posting Guide:

 

Open up your favorite word processing program (one that preferably keeps formatting like italics and bold intact). Copy and paste your post periodically (not just at the end!) into this word file. Save it onto your desktop as "post". Make sure you do a final copy and paste before you send it. Once the post is viewable on the website, THEN you can delete the post.doc on your desktop. You're welcome.

 

Mulțumesc mult, Mr.Moore

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

Cu plăcere.

[Coreforcruxes]

I have met with my parents twice now, last saturday and yesterday. Driving up to see them I was anxious and distracted (driving), could not focus. But I was a little optimistic, thinking, this could work, they might get it.My plan was to approach it logically and philosophically. Knowing that emotions would not get very far. I have tried to keep other people out of how I deal with my relationship with my parents but it effects my older and younger brother. The younger brother I sadistically tormented in our youth and I am cautious not to do anything that could harm him now.{off the main topic}

I spoke to my younger brother this past friday because I have been meaning to do so for awhile. He is probably my biggest victim in life. I was very violent, manipulative and hurtful to him. He has no illusions about it, and fully recalls childhood memories I cannot. When I was 13 we remember my breaking down crying and apologizing to him for being creul, though that did not stop me from later being hurtful and abusinve though maybe not as evil. His method of "dealing" with the past is to not address it and move on. I am not confident about what to do in regards to him so I apologized profusley and told him that I would be there for him in whatever capacity I could be, I offered to help out with therapy if he ever chose to get it. He says the things do not bother him (I am not sure if I should convince him that unresolved issues have negative effects in his life or not, he has his peace for the moment and I hope he wakes up seeing me handle these issues) any more and that he does not think about it. So I told him that if he ever does want to talk about it or if it ever does bother him, I am there for him and that he deserves for me to make it up to him and that I would be there however I could. In addressing my parents my younger brother defends them both now (used to hate our father, always loved our mother) and blames his emotional problems on myself and our older brother mistreating him. I accept all the feelings he has for me and apologize I do not blame our parents or try to deflect (though I do not alter my feelings about them nor the capacity to which I feel they were responsable.

 

{back on track}

I layed out logic and philosphy... gold, veritable proofs of how they were responsable and should be accountable. It was all water off a ducks back. In that first meeting I came away knowing for certain that ultimatley my parents were never interested in knowing me as a person only in programming me to be what suited there needs (what they claim is in my best interest). I got them to flat out admit that they viewed themselves as superior to me, my authority that has the right to act on my behalf whether I wished it or not. I told them that that would not work in a relationship with me, it was in fact the problem. I kept pointing out their contradictions. How they wanted to be treated fairly but the terms of their relationship was the definition of not fair. He kept asking what I expected to get from this what I wanted to accomplish. I reminded him that my being there was a consequence of their getting involved in my life that I was dealing with things on my own. I said I had put it off too long anyway and wanted to see, I wanted to see for myself and confirm who they were and how they would act.At one point my father (upset and irritated) got close to me and I asked him to give me space, he got offended that I would treat him like a stranger and I told him that he had a history of violence with me and that I had a responsability to protect myself, I let him know that I was afraid of him. I left that night after alot of yelling and my father saying I was disowned and not allowed back on his property.

 

That did not hurt, I was prepared to lose the relationship it was impractical to expect much. But I also needed to see, I knew It would be healing to confront them. And in alot of ways it was, I cried at the thought and relived memory of how alone I felt as a child, and how I detached myself from the world because of that. How in every relationship after that I fundamentally did not trust anyone and later could not trust anyone because I did not know myself.

 

Later in the week my father called and asked me to come back the next weekend to have a chat like normal, no talking about our issues, just hanging out. He has a history of making extreme threats and saying the most terrible things and then later acting like it never happened. I told him that it made no sense to act like nothing was wrong when there was clearly a huge problem. We argued for a bit but in the end, I told him to check back with me later that I might come back to talk but that I would not just act like everything was ok.

 

One of my motivations for going back was to get some guns of mine, and because I felt like no matter what happend, if I stuck to my convictions and did not spare them any of my truth hurtful or not then in the end If it were best never to see them again I would know very clearly why, and if my brothers tried to address them after me perhaps i would have paved the way a bit. I stayed and talked for about 10 hours in all, the first half of the day we spent time amicably enough. Then shorly after I brought up wanting my guns we got back into going over our issues. I tried in general not to show any vulnerability to them, that they did not deserve it. But any time I lost my composure and saw their lack of empathy it was very edifying. I made it clear that I understood they cared more about there own feelings than mine.

 

I also made it clear that I held them both equally responsable, even though my mother had always been the sympathetic ear in issues with my father, I could also see how she had been instrumental in making sure things never fundamentally changed.

 

This go around we got into more detailed issues, last week we did not get past a couple simple points, spanking is bad etc. My father kept trying to change the subject or bring up less trivial issues, I would take the bait a bit but brought the conversation back to the issue at hand. I got things off of my chest that had bugged me for years about his hypocrisy. I got plenty of the ususal, ungrateful, dis-respectful. When presented with the idea that I could not know how to raise kids until I had, I pointed out that I could know how I as a child felt. I would remind them that their lack of care for what the child felt then was the problem that still existed to that day. They were not interested in me only in how they could better manage me. All in all it was pretty confrontational.

 

At the end of the day we left on amicable enough terms, I said I might go back in a week or so. We are communicating but nobody is giving any ground on their positions. I am not sure of the end goal I have here, I guess it is simply to stick to my guns and see where this goes as long as the practical circumstances of my life allow it. If by some miracle they were to "see the light" it could be instumental in my extended family avoiding the same problems and some of them that spank thinking twice. And It could be very helpful for my brothers dealing with them if and when they ever chose to.

 

Ever since talking to them yesterday I have felt better and my mind has been clearer. Though I am trying to be aware of whether that is because I actually resolved issues or because having been around them I regressed and rebuilt some emotional walls. i suspect the truth is a little of both I am trying to let myself develop a habit of being able to stay focused through my productive day and not get introspectively side tracked and then doing my emotional work in the evenings.

 

 

There is more but that is all I have for now, thanks all.