GoonOfFortune Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Hi all, OK so I'm 25 and my gf is 22, my girlfriend has been asking me why I have not asked her hand in marriage yet after 3 1/2 years of being together. I've told her it frustrates me when she asks me that question or even talks about engagement and that it's something I'll ask when I feel the time is right. Now this is where she gets confused because we do talk about kids a lot and how we would like to raise them and we have established that marriage will come before kids so she becomes frustrated sometimes when I bring up kids. I've said that makes a lot of sense to me and I can understand how that would make you think I'm putting the "cart before the horse" so to speak and then get confused about my intentions. Ill just give a little back story on our relationship in case that helps anyone solve my conundrum.. My gf and I met before I started my "awakening" with Ron Paul then Peter Schiff then Stefan. After 3.5 years of being together there have been no fights or yelling of any kind.In the beginning I had a lot of trust issues around other guys and we both didn't know much about win win conflict resolution, when I would say something hurtful she went more to the silent treatment style which I didn't know how to deal with which frustrated me alot and we would eventually either sleep on it and make up in the morning or spend an hour or 2 of me trying to talk to her and eventually we would be talking again. These days thanks to reading Stefan's book real time relationships and watching a lot of his videos our relationship is much more stable though we do get frustrated at each other over certain things. Were constantly working on being more open, vulnerable and honest with each other which is going really well and I've since talked to my parents about my childhood (some yelling, maybe 5 - 8 spankings but alot of counting to 1,2,3 and my dad was pretty authoritarian might makes right etc) and she is just starting to talk to her mum about the way she was treated (alot of yelling, smackings, authoritarian where her dad was more passive and didn't do any of the punishing etc). We agree on things like parenting, are almost identical on money issues, what we want out of life, we go on alot of holidays together and we both still get very excited when the other is coming over (we live a 10 minute bike ride apart) We are looking at moving out together in an apartment in the next 1-3 months. So when she asks me about why I have not asked her to get engaged yet I say "I just don't feel like I'm ready yet and I don't know the underlying reason for that" So when I say that she feels its something wrong with her and I can't give a real reason she she feels she needs to change something about herself but doesn't know what etc but I explain that I can't change her nor want to which then frustrates her even more.. And to me it seems strange to ask your boyfriend that questions since it's usually a surprise kind of thing. Anyway, were both getting frustrated over this which is why I promised her to post it on the forums here to see If i can get some help with determining why I haven't asked her yet or how we could figure out why were both getting frustrated Any help would be greatly appreciated and I'm happy to answer any questions Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiminy Vishnu Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 GoF, I empathize with your situation. I once had a girlfriend who after almost 3 years of dating, became something of a nag in wondering when we were going to get engaged. To make a long story short, we broke up and it would have been a HUGE mistake to marry her and even worse if children were brought into the world just to be the product of a broken family early on. Lord knows today's women, no matter how young (22 is young), they want to know where a relationship is going, is..breakup or marry. My question to your GF is, what's the rush? If she loves you and wants to be together forever, what's the difference between forever "now" and forever 2 years from now? Especially if you want to do it right..how to communicate with integrity, how to build a household and family with the strongest and best of foundations, why the pressure? Is it that her friends are giving her pressure? Does she have the "I don't want to be an old mother" fear? I'm obviously just hypothesizing. I would also add that your girlfriend has essentially asked YOU to marry her by bringing it up first. Think about that. That goes against 99% of how engagements usually work. So your doing something right in driving this girls interest level through the roof. If only more men could get this to happen. Instead of saying "I'll ask when I feel the time is right", you could have answered.."you just keep doing what your doing and it will happen." If you love her and do want to get married, why not go look at rings? You don't need to buy one yet. But if your talking kids and not willing to talk wedding or engagement then what is it that you really want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Prax Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 First, I'd want to make sure you guys had watched "Why men don't want to get married" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t6j50Tkwy0 and "Why men don't want to have kids" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dujXV7D7RXo I think that may help narrow things down a bit. I was pressured into marrying my high school sweetheart at the age of 24. I was going through the motions because it was what everyone expected of me. We dated for 8 years before marrying. We had kids. I divorced recently, after 17 years, and now, with taxes, child support, and alimony, I get to keep about 20% of my income. Its horror stories like mine that strike marriage fear into the hearts of every young productive man, and frankly, they SHOULD. Fortunately for me, I managed to find the love of an amazing woman that I do intend on marrying. However, the ONLY reason we are marrying is because without doing so, there are people with guns that will prevent her from staying on this side of an imaginary line on the ground for an extended period of time, or permit her to make a living. We do not seek to have the State or Church condone or control our relationship by licensing and certifying it as valid. That is up to us. That being said, we DO NOT live in a Stateless Society, unfortunately. So, in order to be productive, we DO have to play the game at times, and there ARE advantages to getting married in this Statist Society .... taxes, healthcare issues, and affairs of estate come to mind. Your fear of marriage is well founded ... just look at my condition ... and consider Stefan's take on it. However, it IS a significant gesture regarding your willingness and commitment to the relationship. I can't blame women for wanting that level of commitment before having kids ... being a single mother without help or financial support is tough. Encumbering the man in the relationship with the threat of violent coercion should he decide to call it quits later down the road seems an attractive option. I suggest you both be honest with your fears and consider the pros and cons. Just don't EVER do something just because you felt that is what was expected of you by society, friends, family, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoonOfFortune Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Hey, thanks for the responses, To answer you Jiminy.. I'm sure she can feel her biological clock ticking away because she is type 1 diabetic and the longer we leave kids the higher the chances for complications. Her friends aren't pressuring her and I'm fairly close to her best friend but she does see people around her getting engaged and she feels like she is not moving on and the thing that bothers her the most is that some of these people have pretty superficial relationships from her perspective. I know that her parents met and married young so that plus watching endless amounts of Disney movies would have had some impact on her view of marriage and there is a bit of the old mother fear but mainly because of her medical situation. @Steff: Hey man, yea I've watched those vids they are great, maybe it is a subconscious fear of commitment I have based on some of those reasons or just a rational caution in regards to the consequences of a failed marriage. On that note I have told her this is the most important decision of my life and that I want to be sure were ready plus that when it happens that there's no going back, and no snowballs chance in hell of divorce if we have kids which she took pretty well and understood. I'm so sorry that you found yourself in that situation that sounds terrible, I'm glad its turned out for the better for you. It is stories like that that do make me and others think hard. When I talk to other guys my age marriage isn't even on the radar and kids are completely out of the picture. Yea I'm definitely not one to conform to societies expectations and I agree that engagement has importance as a gesture as in a way of telling the wider community about the level of commitment in your relationship which I think is important. I guess women are brought up to dream about engagements and weddings and that coupled with an inflicted sense of insecurity through violent parenting would make the urge to get hitched even more compelling Well thanks for the responses I'll be sure to keep talking to her about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicist Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 When you imagine you and her being married with kids and raising a family together, what kind of emotions come up for you? I wasn't clear about your first post, were you saying that you two were moving in together in 1-3 months? If so, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoonOfFortune Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 When I think about that I get very excited, the thing that is in the back of my mind alot is introducing our kids to her Mum and my Dad knowing full well that they think punishing kids is acceptable even though I know they would not dare attempt that when we are there with them As for moving out we want to live together and see how that goes and experience that lifestyle, plus more freedom from family and then her mum wont have that "you live in my house" power over her so she will feel more confident in talking to her about her childhood knowing that if her mum reacts with aggression or immaturity she wont feel trapped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteenfiftyseven Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 [deleted] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicist Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 When I think about that I get very excited, the thing that is in the back of my mind alot is introducing our kids to her Mum and my Dad knowing full well that they think punishing kids is acceptable even though I know they would not dare attempt that when we are there with them As for moving out we want to live together and see how that goes and experience that lifestyle, plus more freedom from family and then her mum wont have that "you live in my house" power over her so she will feel more confident in talking to her about her childhood knowing that if her mum reacts with aggression or immaturity she wont feel trapped That sounds like a reasonable concern. Even though you would prevent any type of punishment her parents might want to impose on your children you would still be exposing them to people who inflicted harm on their mother. Obviously they wouldn't know this but they would be able to sense a change in her or you while in the presence of her parents and wonder about it. It sounds to me like the both of you are still doing a lot of growing and discovery around your childhoods. Especially if she is still living with her parents she's not going to have the freedom to explore that relationship for the reasons you stated. It's not surprising to me given these circumstances that you wouldn't feel ready. If I were in your situation I would at least want the relationship with the parents figured out before getting married and having children to avoid future complications. And that's not even being aware of other things that you may not have settled yet. I don't understand the frustration between you two here. Why is being ready now important? I mean I know you mentioned the medical thing but that sounded more like an inference than an issue that you two sat down and discussed. The fact that she sees it as a poor reflection on herself is not good imo. I mean either something hidden is going on and she is right, or she is taking this personally when its not the case and you two should work on figuring out why. I hope this doesn't sound judgmental but it seems like you two have lots to work on so I would caution against rushing into anything just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerburg Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 It sounds reasonable to live with each other for awhile before getting engaged, to me at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Exceptionalist Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Your fear of marriage is well founded ... just look at my condition ... and consider Stefan's take on it. However, it IS a significant gesture regarding your willingness and commitment to the relationship. I can't blame women for wanting that level of commitment before having kids ... being a single mother without help or financial support is tough. Since when is ruin your life a gesture? You sell your freedom for a piece of paper. Reproduction isn't neccessarily the goal of a relationship. Married or not, the father is forced to pay for the children. Leviathan becomes the ex girlfriend's sugar daddy who forces the father to pay. A marriage is a contract with preset conditions which make it a high roller game for men. It takes about 20 years to raise a child, so there is no need for a life long contract. You just need a carefully chosen person to reproduce if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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