NigelW Posted January 4, 2014 Posted January 4, 2014 I’ve been exploring my ambivalence towards my father and I’ve come out with some interesting memories. They seem hidden from view most of the time and I see only how he wasn’t there. I find myself getting stuck in blaming my parents from time to time and feel like myself as the helpless child I was. I remember playing hide and seek with my Dad and my brother. My Dad used to put on a hockey mask and chase us around once we found him. It was a lot of fun! I remember pleading for him to keep playing but when he stopped there was no negotiation. A few years later we were staying with my grandfather for a short time and I was playing hide and seek with my brother. I saw that my grandfather had fallen asleep on his rocking chair and had remembered how fun it was when my Dad would jump out of the hallway and chase us with a hockey mask on. So, I snuck up to the side of my grandfather’s chair and screamed at the top of my lungs, “Roar!” From what I was told, he “nearly had a heart attack.” My father was at work from what I can recall, in another part of the country. I also remember around the same time playing in the second floor hallway of my grandfather’s house. There were some mirrors on the wall and giant windows opposite them. The stair was no more than two or three feet away from me when my grandfather came over and pushed me. I fell down the stair and caught the hand rail about four or five risers down. My sister recalls this happening. No one in the family did anything to address the issue. My father did NOTHING and my grandfather remained the stoic paragon of moral virtue in the family, which leads me to the next memory. My brother and I were in a conflict and he enraged me. I remember feeling absolutely helpless to do anything. It so happened that we were at the top of a stair. I pushed him and he went flying. He was not as lucky as I was and he fell six or seven risers onto the carpeted stair landing with plywood subflooring. My sister recalls this memory clearly as well. I can’t remember if I was spanked but I do remember my exasperated mother often saying things like, “how come you hurt your little brother!?” Once again, my father was at work, someplace else. I feel like I am looking for moral clarity for these memories. So, if anyone has any comments, please feel free! Thanks
Lens Posted January 4, 2014 Posted January 4, 2014 I read your post and I was moved by your memories. You are describing a childhood of loneliness and abandonment and the only way for you to not to feel this loneliness as a child is to play hide and seek so you can convince yourself that you are being loved. Your father most likely used you by playing with you and when he is bored he stopped playing without telling you anything and without respect for your child feelings. A child left without explanation has no other choice but to feel guilty because he thinks he is no joy for his parents. I do not think there is any moral explanation to this for you as child your loneliness is a feeling all feelings are legitimate. You must feel anger that your grandfather left you there without soothing your fear because who knows what would have happened to you falling from the stairs. Would you now leave a child without rescuing him when you see him falling of the stairs? I am sure not. Your grandfather showed you how cold he can be when the situation urges him to recuse you and to provide a safe environment so you can digest your fear and heal your wounds, that unfortunately didn't happen. Morality in my view hides the facts and the plain and raw truth that you lived with a family that didn't care about your feelings and if you want to use the word morality then you may call your family immoral for not being there for you as a child you were innocent and you had needs and clearly they were unmet. Any child would love to have playful parents but when the parents use the child to play and get out of their boredom that is immoral in my view but a child is NEVER immoral because his brain is in formation so he doesn't know what is right or wrong he is learning but adults who never question their deeds or behaviour are the ones to blame not the child. I hope you can see this and feel your sadness about being so lonely in your childhood, once you can feel this you will feel much less alone in the world because you become aware of what happened to you emotionally and you no longer need to justify your father or grandfather attitude because it was wrong to not to give you the attention you so much needed as a child. Again thank you for your text it was important to share it with us Lens
Kevin Beal Posted January 4, 2014 Posted January 4, 2014 Hi Nigel! I think it's an important issue you are bringing up and I appreciate you working toward moral clarity around these issues. This is just my opinion. I'm not an expert on any of these issues. The morality I think that I'm going to have to disagree with Lens, as it is not people that are immoral, but moral propositions, which are inherent in action. So we can take the proposition "if someone upsets us, it's justified to push them down stairs". I'm sure you don't agree with that now, and probably wouldn't have said yes to that even at the time, but that's the part to evaluate, I think. What these incidents represent in moral terms is the initiation of force. If you accept the NAP as a principle, you logically must condemn stair pushing. So, considering that, I don't see any way around the fact that something immoral was done. I can't think of why scaring your grandfather would be immoral. . . The difference I would say though that there is a moral difference between you pushing your brother, and your grandfather pushing you. In that you (probably) didn't have the option to not see your grandfather, he won't be condemned the way you were, and he has far less excuse around maturity and way more opportunities to address that violent impulse in himself. All of that pointing to the fact that he had more choice generally, and it seems fair to me to say that the people with the most choice are the most culpable. A caution What I would caution is making excuses for other people. If you were to say to yourself that what your grandfather did wasn't too bad, then what is inevitable (and the dark side of UPB) is that you will make those same excuses for yourself. The result being that you will hold yourself less responsible and you will justify more aesthetically negative (vices) or even immoral behavior in yourself. Restitution I don't know what you should do in this case, but generally restitution for acts of violence involves the effect on the person (i.e. bodily and psychological damage). If you were able to have some kind of measure for how much that is worth, then that'd constitute restitution. If it's a money amount, it's should be high enough to overcome the resentment, but not so high that they'd prefer to be pushed again (or something like that, I'm no expert). Further consideration What the hell were your parents thinking leaving you with a man who would push you down stairs? A man willing to do that doesn't suddenly out of nowhere just start pushing people down stairs. There would have to be some kind of history there. And why is your grandfather immune to criticism? Why is he shielded from condemnation while you are not? Why did nobody ask where you got the idea to push your brother?
Lens Posted January 4, 2014 Posted January 4, 2014 The morality I think that I'm going to have to disagree with Lens, as it is not people that are immoral, but moral propositions, which are inherent in action. So we can take the proposition "if someone upsets us, it's justified to push them down stairs". I'm sure you don't agree with that now, and probably wouldn't have said yes to that even at the time, but that's the part to evaluate, I think. What these incidents represent in moral terms is the initiation of force. If you accept the NAP as a principle, you logically must condemn stair pushing. So, considering that, I don't see any way around the fact that something immoral was done. I can't think of why scaring your grandfather would be immoral. . . Hi Kevin, I find that you employ a mathematical reasoning to explain pain ? Where are your emotions ? I am curious about that You may disagree on words but I hope you feel angry and outraged about how this person was treated as a child and left alone with his feelings of despair. Luckily I could find some indignations in a small paragraph at the end of your post. Concerning this: as it is not people that are immoral, but moral propositions, which are inherent in action. I find it so not important personally because it feels like someone is saying "Oh It wasn't my father who was violent it was only his actions were violent otherwise he is a loving dad" Or something like this "My father didn't hurt me it's only his actions did otherwise he is calm most of the time" it feels the inconscience childhood fear behind those statements, because when we were small we could have faced severe punishment if we displayed our genuine feelings of anger and indignation. That is why people (society) are afraid of anger and those who display a lot of anger in public are put in psychiatric hospital and on heavy meds "for their own good" because they are "out of control" fortunately there are few therapists very few whom they do not fear their past and welcome their patients anger and can encourage their patients to express it fully towards the real culprits so it can resolve itself with time. I hope I made myself clear on that I condemn the father and the grandfather (perpetrators actively or passively) and not the child who is clearly a victim the way Stefan raised his daughter with active listening to her needs could give you an practical example to never ever leave a child alone in his pain. This podcast is in my view a very important one it explains how and why society is pro parent and not pro child Lens
dsayers Posted January 4, 2014 Posted January 4, 2014 Nigel, thanks for sharing. In regards to you frightening your grandfather, I view this as a lack of parental effort to help you understand what voluntary cooperation is. If they did not provide a model for considering others, how could you know that suddenly yelling in the presence of a sleeping person wouldn't be received as fun? it is not people that are immoral, but moral propositions, which are inherent in action Thank you for this clarification. I've made this mistake numerous times. Which is weird since even before gaining self-knowledge, I understood the value of addressing the behavior and not the person. @Lens: I took it as a caution against summarizing a person over one (series of) act(s). To say a person is immoral is to regard it as if it cannot be altered.
NigelW Posted January 5, 2014 Author Posted January 5, 2014 I appreciate the sensitivity and the precision offered in your posts. I have been in a therapeutic process for a while now and I think it's helpful to know what I need to work on. If there was any confusion on my end, I apologize. @Lens: Wow, thank you. Can I ask what you mean when you say he was using me? Can you explain that? I've never thought of that. @Kevin: I tend to think cynically and resentfully of my grandfather. But to give you an idea of how sickening it is, I was at a family dinner and I said, 'I didn't have a father.' My aunt looked reared her head and said menacingly, 'your grandfather did the best he could.' I have mixed feelings towards my grandfather but I would not excuse his behavior. He took me in and helped me to finish high school, helped me get my drivers license, and co-signed for my student loans, but I think he's unreachable. Based on a confrontation I saw with him and his son (my uncle) where he continually denied having abused him. @dsayers: I keep forgetting that I wasn't modeled better behavior. Thank you.
Lens Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 @Lens: Wow, thank you. Can I ask what you mean when you say he was using me? Can you explain that? I've never thought of that. Hi Nigel, In the context of a father or any caregiver who feels needy or bored and adults around him don't give him attention he can force attention from a child to alleviate his loneliness and deeply rooted boredom, because lonely children generally do not say no to attention. The child is used like a game console or a doll they are played with to have "fun" and then when the fun is over the game console is shut down or the doll is thrown away at once. The child cannot see through this (too painful) that it is not his needs that are met by the father but the father's unmet needs are being met by the child (the child becomes the parent). Later on this child becomes an adult and repeat unconsciencely (without knowing) these scenarios like becoming a people pleaser, becoming a sex toy for his/her partner, having difficulties saying no, being with friends that their needs come first etc etc. It is a way for this (adult) former child to avoid being abandoned or rejected and can secure "love" from his entourage by being selfless with no needs. It is also to avoid legitimate suffering and feeling the pain of the former child for being used for the fun of others so you can see in a way we repeat the same pattern to avoid seeing the father/mother for who he really is just a narcissistic guy who's needs come first and his lack of empathy for his child's needs and feelings. But there is a the guilt trap that you may want to avoid. You said above that your grandfather assisted you in many ways and that is true but he also inflicted pain on you when you were a helpless child by abandoning you in your suffering and that is cowardice from his part there is no excuse for treating you poorly. Generally the abuse - at least the physical abuse - stops when we become adults because we are taller, stronger and we can defend ourselves with words our parents/caregivers know this very well and that is why they don't hit us anymore because now as adults we can leave but they don't want that because they are emotionally dependent on us (grownups). I coud see through this in my therapy and I left (defooed) because in my family their needs always come first and to manipulate me they helped me financially to keep me an ally and loyal to them but I am loyal to no one but me and I left. If you are currently in therapy try to talk about your experiences from the perspective of the child you once were and see how you feel about it if tears (pain) would come up to the surface try to not to suppress them if there are no emotions try again and again and journal about it, imagine you are that child when writing, you will finally have those banished emotions back. When I was a child I have been played with by both my father and my mother as a toy. I had some of the memories but no feelings, slowly I allowed myself to feel this betrayal in therapy it wasn't easy at all it brought me much much bitterness, fear, sadness and rage, I felt relived after expressing my trues feelings it also permitted me to see how a child (little me) feels about that since I got in touch with my childhood feelings which were blocked in the past. It got me back the empathy for myself and will not let anyone use me again and if people now want to use me I now can let them know that I do not accept that and I say NO. There are many stories on the Internet like your story and my story very courageous persons are breaking the walls of silence and got much support in return I hope you get much support and understanding (empathy) too in your path for self-knowledge. This is a very very helpful podcast from Stefan Molyneux about comforting abusers and neglecters I hope you'll listen to it, I am sure it will be very much helpful. http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_437_Vulnerability.mp3 Also read the book "The drama of the gifted child" latest edition, it's a small book packed with many examples. I wish you much luck and courage and thank you again for allowing yourself to be vulnerable and sharing your story Lens
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