Is Adam Kokesh a war criminal?

[Guest e Yer]

Podcast 2573 timecode: 01:33:26 - 01:33:37, Kevin asks: Is Adam Kokesh a war criminal for enlisting in the Marines and participating in the Iraq war (in Fallujah)? The answer is perhaps revealed in the 1960's song lyrics of Universal Soldier by Buffy Saint Marie, an American Indian folk singer but the song was made popular by Donovan. The nature of what the U.S. and other countries' soldiers are involved in is no secret, evidence by the contents of the lyrics that specifically addressed dissension to the Vietnam War. The Iraq War was without a doubt a statist war given the run up to the war. So Kokesh had plenty of time to listen, to review protest songs and message like this, as was all troops who voluntarily engaged in this war. The title is appropriate as it summaries universally what a soldier is about above the background noise of mainstream and political propaganda media. Here's the lyrics (taken from songlyrics.com):

 

He's five foot two and he's six feet four

He fights with missiles and with spears

He's all of thirty-one and he's only seventeen

He's been a soldier through a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain

A Buddhist, a Baptist and a Jew

And he knows he shouldn't kill, and he knows he always will

Kill you for me my friend, and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada, he's fighting for France

He's fighting for the U.S.A and he's fighting for the Russians

And he's fighting for Japan

And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for democracy, he's fighting for the Reds

He says it's for the peace of all, he's the one who must decide

Who's to live and who's to die

And he never see the writing on the wall

But without him, how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau

Without him Caesar would have stood alone

He's the one who gives his body as a weapon of the war

And without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame

His orders come from far away, no more

They come from here and there and you and me

And brothers, can't you see

This is not the way we put the end to war?

[LifeIsBrief]

I love Adam Kokesh, and thought the interview with him was wonderful, but that said... I'm pretty sure Kokesh himself actually suggested that he was a war criminal.  I'll try to find the clip from Adam Vs. The Man and post it if I get a chance, because I love watching those shows anyway, but I could be wrong.

 

With that said, is 18 an adult?  Were protest songs popular in the south in 2001?  I'm not trying to let him off the hook, because I don't think he even lets himself off the hook for abhorrent behavior, but I think it is fair to suggest that he was just an ignorant young man at the time, and he made a huge mistake.  Assuming that is the case, can he be redeemed?  Can someone commit a horrible crime in their youth, and still become a good person worthy of love and respect?  I think so.  Just a thought.

[Mike Fleming]

You might as well ask if all the US and coalition soldiers are war criminals.  Let's not just single out one person.

 

One thing is for sure is that they will never be prosecuted for what they have done in Iraq.  And nor will Adam.  Knowing that, I think that dedicating your life to an ideal that you believe in and to help people is the best shot for redemption that he has.   I agree with what was said above.  He was a misguided young man.  But the reality is he was sucked in by a society wide conspiracy, that the war is good, it was indoctrinated into him as child through school and media, and it's difficult for me to condemn him more than society at large.  Whatever he did was probably small fry compared to what is accepted by society as being OK.

 

Not making excuses just pointing out realities.

[ChrisL]

So Kokesh had plenty of time to listen, to review protest songs and message like this, as was all troops who voluntarily engaged in this war.

 

Congratulations to you who was so enlightened that only those messages reached your ears. 

 

For most people the amount of propoganda on the other side FAR outweighed those messages.  There is a reason the state uses propoganda, for the people who don't understand it's nature, it works.  It's as if you don't understand that if the vast majority of people knew and understood how things really worked we wouldn't live in the same world. 

 

By this logic is anyone that is/has been influenced by any mainstream lies, themselves evil?

[Culain]

I remember Adam admitting that he only got involved in the anti-war/liberty movement because he got thrown out of the army by carrying an illegal firearm. He actually wanted to initially go back to the middle east because he didn't get his commemorative badge or something like that.

 

You can still see a lot of his army mentality today because he was never properly reasoned out of it, he suffers from PTSD and uses drugs (Weed and DMT) along with carrying multiple firearms as coping mechanisms.

 

I've seen Adam's approach of wanting to rile up the community to get angry and dismantle Government from the top down, but I think this method is a way of him avoiding his own relationships and his own past. He got robbed of around 10 thousand dollars by someone in his studio when he got sent to prison, all the donators' money was taken. There was a video released while Adam was in jail of his team trying to negotiate a solution for his release and the plans for the show, if anyone else watched it you know that it literally turned into a massive bitching fest. His team members were all at each others throats vying for control.

 

It's kind of ironic how he claims the way to take down the state is the Top-Down approach, yet he was dismantled internally. It's possible the 'heavier' drugs found in his place that he got charged with were from another on of his team as they all were drug users as well.

[Guest e Yer]

The forgiveness for those who start and engage in war has been going on too long in the U.S. That is why the cycle continued for so long. If those who made those choices felt the full gravity of their decision then maybe we can end this. I like the last line of the song: "But without him all these killings can't go on."

e yer

[LifeIsBrief]

You can only make that argument, if you're willing to take the exact same responsibility, and find your behavior unforgivable for ever paying taxes, also known as... his salary.  If so, I salute you for taking that step, as a moral stand.  I'm a weird monk, who's taken a vow of poverty to avoid paying taxes for the war.  This is only feasible, because I, so far, have chosen not to have children, which makes my situation possible without causing harm to others.  Part of what little money I earn, has paid into social security and medicare, and then been stolen to pay for the war effort anyway... but at least they had to directly and immorally steal my money by both force and fraud.  If you work a job, and they take part of your paycheck you fall squarely into the category of "But without him all these killings can't go on".

 

I'll probably falter in my vow of poverty eventually...  give up, and end up supporting an evil state, but when I do, I'm exactly as culpable as Mr. Kokesh, for his war crimes, and I hope people will forgive me.

[Mike Fleming]

The forgiveness for those who start and engage in war has been going on too long in the U.S. That is why the cycle continued for so long. If those who made those choices felt the full gravity of their decision then maybe we can end this. I like the last line of the song: "But without him all these killings can't go on."

 

I wouldn't say he has been forgiven.  People see the value in the work that he does and try to balance that against whatever harm he has done.

 

I would not personally associate with those who participated in the war and don't try and redeem themselves.  Those who just go about their lives and consider it OK and that they don't owe any debts for their crimes.  Like I said above, the one reality about this that we do know is that they will never be punished.   I think Adam is doing enough good things in the world today that it counterbalances whatever wrong he has done in a way that few other veterans can say.   

 

I am more for rehabilitation than punishment and I think Adam has come a long way in that respect.  He is extremely unlikely to re-offend.  He has a debt to pay and I think he is going about it the best way he can.

[Guest e Yer]

What you are referring to is what Stefan refers to as retribution. That is trying to make right your wrongs. Whatever is happening to him with the courts and the arrest isn't necessary punishment. However I don't think civil disobedience is a good approach. Through Stefan's podcasts and discussions at this site, the message of the evil of government and the wars it manufacturers is reaching people worldwide, either directly via the internet or through word of mouth. Touching just one person can have an amazing exponential effect in influencing others, like the ripple effect of a tiny pebble dropped in a pond of still water. I think he mentioned that he was Catholic and/or went to Catholic school and overlooked the: Thou Shall Not Kill commandment. Had he not overlooked that and had he been faithful to the virtues and advise of his religion, he may not be in the fix he's in today (the legal proceedings forthcoming and his PTSD related to his involvement in the military). God and Jesus can turn all bad things into good for those who believe. All the insights into the evils of war, and the state and the support he is getting from his fans and from this discussion are assets. Perhaps if he accepts that this life where he had made his own choices resulted in the death of his spiritual soul, then a second chance life awaits him. Conditionally In this life, If he agrees the second life belongs totally to Christ and is no longer his; thus he must serve Christ without question obediently. This is called "born again" or giving your life (the second one) to Jesus entirely. Whatever God calls him to do he should carry out faithfully. Some possibilities are: he could do a religious internet podcast and steer young men and women away from the military service by sharing his experience in his sermons. He could also return to Fallujah to help the radioactive sick (sort of like Father Damien.) But his mission would be strictly between him and Christ. 

[Mike Fleming]

Deleted

[LifeIsBrief]

Just to be clear... He was a reserves in civil affairs, with a psychology degree, so I don't know if he actually killed anyone.  I think he just saw horrendous activity, didn't report it to anyone, and feels horrible about it.  Mostly he delivered checks to people whose family members were killed in the war.  It's still immoral, but as he once said, the unofficial civil affairs slogan was "We care, so you don't have to".  He was in the fig leaf division.

[MrCapitalism]

 If those who made those choices felt the full gravity of their decision then maybe we can end this.

I disagree with this.I remember several years ago watching a homeless man (obviously a veteran) making a Vietnam War sculpture out of sand at the beach. During the war in Vietnam, crowds shouted down, threatened, and harassed general infantry. The hostility (as has been reported) was enormous.The veteran was discussing the currently waging war in Iraq, and how different the culture of protest was now compared to then. He mentioned, "back then they held the average soldier responsible, called them baby-killers. Now they protest the war, but they have respect for the troops."That didn't work the last time, that's why they don't do it now.

[Guest e Yer]

Dear MrCapitalism:

There are too many people in this country today that are depended on the handouts, entitlement payments, and paychecks they receive from the state to rock the boat. As Stefan said, people are basically immoral. This case you stated with the Vietnam Vet clearly shows since the 60's how successful the state has cultivated a slim majority, but nevertheless a majority of the voting public into passive, non-involved livestock who at most will protest an abstract idea of the objective in the Iraq invasion rather than the real source of terror, the troops. I like the following line from the Universal Soldier: "He's the one who gives his body as the weapon of the war." People will turn their backs to the horror the politicians and U.S. military inflict on innocent Iraqi women, men, children, and infants just to insure they can continue to put food on the table and to be able to make car and house payments. Ironically some troops do this murdering so they can provide comfort, basic needs (good water and food) to their beloved children and newborns while they are part of the group that reeks havoc by bombing Iraqi water supplies, sewage and sanitation facilities and kicking in the doors of families and kidnapping their sons and husbands.

[MrCapitalism]

So if you think it's a bad policy. why do you advocate for it now?

[James Dean]

OP: Dude this is a philosophy forum, you might want to take your stone age nonsense and protest songs elsewhere, if you want to define what a war criminal is and see if adam lines up with that standard, than fine.

 

The morality of Adams actions aside, Jesus mumbo-jumbo and hippie kumbaya don't constitute an objective standard of truth. 

 

"back then they held the average soldier responsible, called them baby-killers. Now they protest the war, but they have respect for the troops."

 

This always confuses me. I see the bumper stickers with slogans such as, "Support the troops, end the war." I wasn't aware that the war was waged by fairies and unicorns, and all the armed to the teeth solders were just there for a tea party. Forgive my sarcasm, but without the troops, there is no war. The "war in Iraq" does not exist, there are people wearing one costume killing people wearing a different costume. If you morally object to this act, you cannot then not morally object to he who perpetrates the act. I don't know how you could have respect for someone who voluntarily engages in this system.

 

Vietnam might have been different, since men were violently coerced into the army (the draft), but that's what sets the soldiers now apart from the taxpayers, both 'prop up' the war machine, but the tax payers have no choice, they are in a state of violent coercion, the soldiers volunteer to be there, they know that their job entails murder, and they go anyway. I think that puts them at full responsibility. Do I think we should spit on the infantry as they come home from the middle east? of course not!  (that would be the initiation of the use of force!) but don't give them a pass, no circumstance can justify those actions. Adam did what he did, the value he provides the cause of freedom does not make that less immoral, nor does his past evil invalidate his contributions.