LovePrevails Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 in the interview about "The Myth of Male Power" on youtube, Warren Farrell states that We often think of our parents as dysfunctional, i think it would be accurate (and also more compassionate) to call them stage 1 functional... when divorce would have lead to starvation, society was forced to make divorce a taboo... codependency was functional.... technology that stopped us from starving to death also allowed women to ask the question "does my husband really listen to me?" and divorces prepared men and women to be independent instead of codependent. Now in stage 2, codependency has become dysfunctional, but not understanding this has lead us to blaming our parents, rather than crediting them for working so hard creating the circumstances that allow us to ask questions like, "are we communicating", "are we listening," "are we loving each other?" our parents couldn't afford to listen to themselves, because if the man listened to himself he would say "I don't want to work this crap job to feed the family." Discuss.
PatrickC Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 Yes, some of Warrens thinking is faulty at times. When he suggests, "does my husband really listen to me?". It assumes that men never or rarely ever listened to their wives, but that their wives always listened to them. Difficult thing to prove frankly.I understand why he does this. Because he is coming from the back foot after a decade or more of vouching for feminist rhetoric. It's a pragmatic approach that in time will be ultimately seen as unhelpful I think.
Emanuel Posted January 5, 2014 Posted January 5, 2014 I don't see how the fact that they separated and didn't ask questions during their marriages and child-rearing years removes them from being called dysfunctional. We developed technology that stopped starvation around the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, and divorce has only started to become a big thing after the rise of the Welfare State, in the 1960's. Technology has nothing to do with it, and relationship standards don't have much to do with it either, I think it's mainly about the incentives. If it was really about asking these hard-hitting questions, people would have better relationships today, they would get therapy and work to solve their communication problems. But that's not what happens. And what the hell does it mean to say they worked so hard to create these circumstances?! Who exactly worked so hard? The men? Who were busy working and keeping up with the moral norms of the time? Or the women, who just had to divorce and got everything given to them by the state and the media? And how is it that if a man listened to himself, he would automatically give up on his job and his family? If he listened to himself, maybe he wouldn't be in such a precarious situation and he would have a better life. I think he's full of shit, and trying to apologize for his parents way too hard. If you want to have these so-called new moral standards, you need to accept the immorality of the past, so that we can move past it. People didn't stop slavery by talking about how we need to recognize how slave owners created the situation where we could call them out on their immorality. Bah, it's quite disgusting to me, frankly.
FreedomPhilosophy Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 If he listened to himself, maybe he wouldn't be in such a precarious situation and he would have a better life. I think history gives numerous examples of hard working and independent women who refused to get married and worked to earn their own living. Likewise for men.Having a family is necessary for the survival of the species, not the individuals concerned - although I have heard it said that in primitive societies, child labour is necessary for survival?I think Warren really needs to elaborate his idea before it can look credible.
Guest Exceptionalist Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Yes, some of Warrens thinking is faulty at times. When he suggests, "does my husband really listen to me?". It assumes that men never or rarely ever listened to their wives, but that their wives always listened to them. Difficult thing to prove frankly.I understand why he does this. Because he is coming from the back foot after a decade or more of vouching for feminist rhetoric. It's a pragmatic approach that in time will be ultimately seen as unhelpful I think. Yeah bro, especially this example with the peas eating kid is out of line, which implies that a kid has to learn defer gratification by force. BTW time preference is the missing term and it has to do with economical selfishness. If you want to reach a goal, it has to pay off over time to save up ressources, improve your skillz etc, while you don't have a net gain in defering icecream. It is like training a dog to withstand his impulses.
LanceD Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 I can see the point in acknowledging the progress made by generations passed. However bring critical of those who came before us is what allows us to continue to progress. Should I forgive the shitty upbringing I was given and instead credit my parents for doing a better job? Well I'm not sure let's think. If instead of hating the way they were raised my parents had decided to applaud their parents for doing a better job then the prior generation would they have given me the same upbringing? Maybe, and while I received shit what my parents got was orders of magnitude worse. So maybe they do deserve some credit for taking the step forward it will not serve my children to hold onto that feeling for more then a moment's time. Because as I said I still got shit, and I have much work to do in order to hand something much better off to my grandchildren.
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