Cornellius Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 First, I have a tough time sometimes following through a convo or a call because of the behavior of the caller. It really struck me during podcast #936 Insomnia or: War is not done with you (wonderful 'cast btw, highly recommended) that the listener couldn't be silent for more than a second after Stef laid out a reasoning as if he couldn't withstand the pressure of being the recipient, the subject of the conversation, as if he was hard-pressed to shift the conversation away from himself. He often wanted to say that he really got what Stef was saying, that he really really agreed, and that he thought this and that and the other before Stef could continue his train of thoughts which was just a few seconds away, as if he wanted to own Stef's thoughts and therefore inoculate himself from the help. Perhaps Stef was able to handle it emotionally and focus on the weighty theory and empiricism he was digging out whilst ignoring the needs the viewer was communicating passive-aggressively, but the thing is, in such a case a direct intervention would've been in order at the very least because it made the listening experience kind of difficult, as a matter of fact I myself was pretty annoyed at the guy. Second, I think sometimes Stef can lack tact. Ok, here's what has bothered me in the past, maybe it's of value. At one time, it was time-outs for children. You know, sometimes I hear Stef say something fishy that can really offset the balance of the respect I have for him, and sometimes it's like I'm trying to sabotage the relationship I have with him, but at other times it's a bit worse. Time-outs and the Super Nanny stuff that stef says is interesting really lights up the fear of authority centers in the brain something bad. I mean time-outs? It really took a long time for me to absorb the idea that they're really the only way to stop a child from doing bad stuff regardless what kind of person the parent in particular intervening is themselves, and learn to differentiate between what is past abuse and what is tricky and difficult problem solving. It's as if a lot of us have this difficulty fighting the fight or flight reaction to needing to be virtuous and rational in our minds where Snap! we're now allergic to anything resembling the past. What an acrobatic kind of emotional defense. But please watch out for people's sensitive side when it comes to these momentarily shocking things that can occur. Third, I have perceived bits of utilitarian pragmatism, and no need to say, that kind of stuff ain't good at all. I'll give one example for now, and I think it's the really big one for me. In the premium 'cast Preparing for the Launch, Stef talks with a stalled unemployed man who lives with his parents at the time of the call and has issues "pulling his own weight" as the expression goes. I had an issue during the call when Stef was talking him into dropping the passive-aggression against the parents, and instead showing respect for the services provided by them by providing services in return until he can move out. I felt cornered in a 1984 Goldstein's book ambush type situation where I thought Stef held a special place in his heart for parents who give their sons complete responsibility for laziness neurotic patterns that they're entirely responsible for, like for philosophy it's universal except for that one long standing tradition of productivity that's like a thorn in the side of my brain that I just somehow decided not to touch. I even felt terrified and helpless because for a moment I thought that my destiny was to abandon libertarianism and keep seeing my parents. At one point, and I paraphrase, he said that it is wrong from those parents to say that they'll support him despite his laziness because that's enabling that laziness. Where's the virtue in that Pavlovian dog mentality? Why is that acceptable? Don't you see the gaping hole? Why would you lie to someone about letting them lie in the street waiting to die instead of letting them in under the pretext that they need to fly with their own wings? It really made me angry, because I didn't think that was honest. Utilitarian pragmatism is to me an unconscious invention to make others get out of bed in the morning, make breakfast, go to work, take care of stuff, go to the store, clean the place, learn what they need to learn and go to bed at night, without consciously realizing that it's their heart's content that allows them to get out of bed and go for what they want in life. I don't know if I'm still having a tough time getting it, but it would be nice to get respect for the violence that is felt when someone you trust advances values you disagree with, and I'd rather kill myself than order myself to get off my butt for some pretext, and I've held the same sentiment across the board for a year with little to no emotional deviation. I see that simple thought as not harmless, but as virulent and contagious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Thank you for posting this, Cornelius. I understand what you're saying, and I also hold these criticisms to a certain extent. Regarding the first one, I have already felt like you on certain occasions, but I have an impression that lately Stefan has been more reluctant to speak to people who simply avoid his arguments or do not connect. I have many memories of people being asked to call back later. Maybe it's because nowadays the show is busier and Stefan has less time for that kind of stuff. Maybe that used to be more of an issue in the past. Obviously, time-outs are a sad an last-restort method of dealing with a child, and it's saying that you had not prepared for the situation beforehand. It's a show of inefficacy in the moment. This is why it was made clear that a time-out is only a temporary solution, that is, until the parent or caregiver has found the answer to the problem, and has negotiated with the child. I also agree that if it can be avoided, it must, as it is sure to cause hurt and feelings of abandonment in a child. That third one is much harder to deal with, and I've also been having some problems with procrastination and "laziness". I'm with you when you point out that there's a fine balance, and an important one, inbetween forcing yourself to do things, and doing them from love of yourself. How's your experience been with productivity and work? It sounds to me like you don't respect the ability to discipline yourself and to get stuff done. I have issues with that myself, and I believe that it comes from my own parent's actions and words that linked productivity to pain, humiliation, sadness and anger. If I was not acting in a way that pleased them, they would tell me that I am lazy, that even though I am so intelligent I am not smart, and other things that I won't go into depth about now. Now that I think about it, my Jehovah's Witness upbringing might also play a big part in that, as in that perfection is necessary, but unattainable, and that there is perfect life after death, meaning that your current actions do not have any value. Could you elaborate on that productivity thorn idea? I'm not sure I understand correctly. It's very hard to discern what is right for me in that situation, as I am somewhat inside of it right now, and I understand both sides of the issue. It's entirely the parent's responsibility how the child is raised and what values are given to different traits, and it's also the adult child's responsibility to go out and do something with his life. I think that in some ways, a metaphorical kick in the butt can make a man out of a boy. Danger will inevitably lead to either courage or self-destruction. Please tell me what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornellius Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 "I'm with you when you point out that there's a fine balance, and an important one, inbetween forcing yourself to do things, and doing them from love of yourself." Dude, I never said that. Go all the way and chuck the notion of forcing yourself to do things right the f--k out the window, there's nothing in it. I haven't seen much serious justification if at all for the virtue of manufacturing danger and coming out on the other side with more stuff than if you extended respect for your emotions in the first place. Meanwhile, I know it's a pretty humiliating exercise, so I see no point in keeping on doing it. Forcing yourself to do things is what you attach to your current productivity, the one that's related to your unconscious and your free will so as to protect your parents, and it keeps you enslaved in a happiness that isn't full. You actually seem quite defensive about it. I'm actually irritated with the thought that discipline is the faithful guard of the golden statue "getting stuff done". Don't touch my freedom you zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 When I first read your reply, I didn't get it. I don't know what it was, but I had to read it like 4 times and think pretty hard to start writing this reply. You know what? I think you're right. When I was writing that earlier comment, I was in a bad situation. I was trying to control myself, and to act in certain ways that I consider "better". All it did was cause me more dissociation and sadness. I've been telling myself that I need to eat more healthy, and I've been eating more and more potato chips, for example. Forcing yourself to do things is what you attach to your current productivity, the one that's related to your unconscious and your free will so as to protect your parents, and it keeps you enslaved in a happiness that isn't full. You actually seem quite defensive about it. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about me protecting my parents, and I'd like to know more about that. I think I have some thinking to do in the meantime. I will not force myself to do it though. I think that's what I meant by the fine balance between acting in coercion to oneself and in voluntary means. I'm not sure if I'm really taking care of myself, though. What I mean is, I'm unsure of how to talk to myself and get to do things, without being violent. I don't think I've ever learned that kind of language, and I'm not sure of how to think about it. I'm confused right now. And you're right when you say my happiness isn't full. And I don't know what's missing exactly. This has given me a lot to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornellius Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'm not sure I understand what you mean about me protecting my parents, and I'd like to know more about that. What I mean is that by redefining your productivity as the fruit of force, you're feeding the illusion that you have no control over yourself, therefore there was no locus of control, no happiness for your family and for public schools to snatch in the first place. The same goes for cynicism. There's a time to be oneself, there is a time to make the abuser happy means the abuser is in charge. If you want a bit of clarification, I really think you have been programmed in a certain way. You just said "I'm unsure of how to talk to myself and get to do things". Of course you are, getting yourself to do things feels like shit! It's terrifying cause it's desertic! And when we act in such a life, isn't it always a form of resentful acting out? Getting yourself to do things is the wrong definition of good and your unconscious knows it. What's more, your unconscious knows that you're gonna get violent when you've failed to talk it into "doing things". What I mean basically is stop kidding yourself. You will always procrastinate on obligations and end up whipping yourself. Just give up. Say fuck it, and let your impulse flow for a while, so you can finally have the space to access your inner inclinations. That's what I recently learned. Respect your past self that wanted to lay down and play Halo while eating belgian bread and butter listening to podcasts and music all at once in bed (no projection there). Your mind isn't trained to find enjoyment elsewhere? So be it. As Stef says: "Freedom is now" I'm really glad if I've opened up some avenues for you, and I'm deeply sorry about your distress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Dean Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 If I truly want something, and work is the way to get it, yet I procrastinate the work, would it be a failure of my ability to asses my wants correctly because if i didn't do it, I must not want it... or would it be a failure of my motivation to prefer 'slacking off' for hours straight? I think you are saying that the later would be incorrect as work is not where my mind is trained to find enjoyment. I find this fascinating and I want you to elaborate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornellius Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 It would be a failure of self-knowledge; in this particular case I would call it a self-destructive reflex. When the only prior motivator in your life has been fear, you unconsciously self-attack by condemning whatever you were doing before going into action. It occurs in the following way: whenever you're slipping into a relaxed state, you become kind of nervous and scan for potential danger with your mind so you don't fall prey to some disaster of dignitity or of circumstances. It's a matter of identifying the fight or flight response for what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovePrevails Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 i can't underrstand the initial post i'm afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornellius Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 i can't underrstand the initial post i'm afraid Do you want help with anything in particular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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