Destructive relationship, or tough love?

[Atticas14]

Hello to everyone in Free Domain Radio Land.

 

This is my first post on the forum, though I've been long subscribed to the program on YouTube.

 

I'll start out by saying that I'm 27 years old, and my ex-girlfriend is 22. I've been going through some tough times with said ex-girlfriend. We were together for almost four years. The relationship was rocky at best. It had it's highs and lows. I thought the sex was great and I enjoyed not being alone, but I never really connected with the girl on an emotional level. Talking too her was like speaking to a fourth grader. She really had a problem listening to people and understanding what was going on. In my opinion she listened to respond, not to understand. She constantly changed the subject thinking that it was a perfectly normal way to carry on a conversation. It was nearly impossible to get the girl to understand anything. While I explained something, she was thinking of something completely unrelated to respond with. She kind of reminds me of that kid on YouTube that likes turtles. You talk to her and talk to her and in her little head she knows that in a minute it's going to be her turn to talk but she has no idea whats going on so she says something completely irrelevant.

 

I didn't give the relationship 100%. I spent a lot of time playing video games while she was over at my house. Maybe that was because conversation with the girl was so frustrating. About five months ago she sent me a text message saying that she needed a break from the relationship. It was messy. I was angry that she did everything over text message and wouldn't see me in person. I threatened to throw all of her stuff away if she wouldn't come see me. That got her mother to call me which made me even more angry and I ended the relationship. Two months later I thought I had made a mistake and got back in touch with the girl. We hung out a bit, she said she still had feelings for me, but she told me she needed time to herself. To make a long dramatic story short she was dating someone else. Her parents had let the guy move in to their house and live with her. Whats worse is she never told me any of this. I learned it all from her friends and family. She kept telling me that she loved both of us and that she didn't know what she wanted. Again she told me she needed time to herself, yet she was living with the guy. Her mother turned out to be a complete joke. She mother loved me one day and hated the new guy, and the next she threatened to kick her daughter out of the house and disown her if she got back with me. At one point in this whole cluster she came over to my house. I made all kinds of symbolic gestures and promises about how I would be different. The night went very well, her and the guy were still dating, but we kissed a bit and I really thought I had her back. I was wrong. The next day she needed "time to herself".

 

Anyway, it turned out to be a disgusting web of lies while I waited on the girl for months. She kept feeding me the line "I just need time to myself" while she continued to live with the guy. The final straw was when she mother posted a picture of her new engagement ring on Facebook. She swore to me that they weren't engaged, but asking her to take the picture down brought nothing but resistance. She didn't want the picture taken down for some reason or another. I wrote her a long letter that basically said how I thought she was such a horrible person and that I didn't want to be with her anymore, that we weren't a compatible couple and that I really hope she gets her stuff together.

 

I still feel that way. I understand that we wouldn't be happy together. I'm still attracted to the girl and I still care about her, but I've been doing some really stupid things lately. I'm telling myself that all I want is an apology. An apology for stringing me along for two months and constantly lying to me about how she "needed time to herself". I'm telling myself that getting the girl to recognize her mistakes instead of making more and more excuses would be good for her, but I'm going about it in a very hurtful, and manipulative manor. Basically it's blackmail. I have a lot of unflattering material of the girl and have threatened to show it to the world if she doesn't, as I call it, "make this right". I'm not asking her to leave the other guy, or come back to me, or anything like that. I just want to see her grow and mature. To recognize her mistakes. To make her see what a dysfunctional family she's in. At the same time another part of me wants her, and the other guy, to feel the emotional pain I went through over the two months while she lead me on and lived with that guy. I feel that she deserves it, straight up. It would follow her for the rest of her life, and bring a lot of disrespect upon me from my family and friends; but if I did it right now it would make me feel better. At least for a little while.

 

Right now I'm at the point where she's willing to go and talk to a psychologist. At least she says she is. I really don't believe a word that comes out of the girls mouth anymore. I've omitted a ton of information here. There's so much more to the story but I have a hard time sorting out the relevant from the irrelevant. That and I don't want everyone who reads this to drop dead from boredom.

 

I'm just so angry that she started seeing this guy days after she got out of our four year relationship; and then she made all these horrible decisions about letting the guy move in and then having unprotected sex with someone she barely knows. She constantly lied to me, and the other guy. Mostly about how she repeatedly said "I need time to myself" while living with the other guy.

 

Anyway I just had to post because I just woke up. I had a dream about her, and the guy she's currently dating, and when I woke up I was fuming mad. I'll add that int he past I have never had anger issues. I don't get mad and punch things. I'm not a violent person. I'll be happy to add any requested information, the mean ass letter I wrote her, or whatever. Thanks to anyone who offers any advice and I'm sorry for all the grammatical errors in here. I'm sure there are a bunch, but I just woke up and I can't find my glasses... Thanks again.

[dsayers]

I have a lot of unflattering material of the girl and have threatened to show it to the world if she doesn't, as I call it, "make this right".

 

This is quite wretched and a profound betrayal of her trust.

 

I think it's clear that the two of you do not have futures that will overlap at all. Much could be said for you even wanting one. At any rate, for as long as this is true, the longer you spend mentally absorbed with her is time you're spending NOT healing through/processing your own pain and/or pursuing things that would be more productive for you and your time. Like evaluating your values, identifying what about her allowed her to get close enough to you to hurt you, etc. Things that would protect you against such things in the future (that she's not going to be in).

 

As for your title, "tough love" is an oxymoron. It's an ex post facto justification for abuse.

 

This might be a swing and a miss, but your profile says you joined in 2010. Your post says you awoke from a dream and posted straightaway, without even locating your glasses. I'm only pointing this out as it seems you're not getting value out of FDR if you are in this relationship for about as long as you've been a member here. Your post is riddled with red flags. Flags pertaining to her and flags pertaining to you.

 

For what it's worth, I was in your situation a couple times actually. As a result of my abuse, I was a glutton for punishment, in both directions, when it came to females. This was a direct result of unprocessed trauma. I seriously hope you will refrain from doing anything that will hurt anybody, including yourself.

[Wuzzums]

When you said she constantly changed the subject, what did she change the subject to? Was there any subject she was constantly talking about?

[ThomasDoubts]

Hey Atticus, how's it going?  I've got some incomplete thoughts, and experiences I'd like to share, but first, I want to let you know that what you're going through is no easy thing to deal with, and I'm sorry you have to deal with it at all.

 

Reading your story really resonated with me on many levels.  I've had some pretty similar experiences and I really feel your pain on a pretty personal level.  Fair warning though, because of the similarity I feel, this might just be a massive projection.  Anyhow, I dated a woman for just under 5 years and our break-up (a few years ago) was much the same as yours.  Your first paragraph would have described this woman, and our relationship quite well.  I wasted a ton of time and emotional energy on someone I knew I wouldn't be happy with, and who no longer wanted to be with me.

 

I'll be blunt with you because I wish I had people in my life who would have been blunt with me, or cared enough to really figure out what was going on in my head.  She doesn't (didn't) need time to herself, as I think you're aware; she started dating someone else days after you broke up, if not before, and quickly began living together.  What she wanted was time away from you.  She didn't want to be with you anymore.  Instead of telling you this directly, she strung you along and left the door cracked.  Maybe you're the fallback option, maybe something else is going on, I'm not sure.

 

I could talk for days about my experience but I'm not sure that would be of any use to you (more than willing to share if you'd like).  It took a long time for me and it was a struggle to be sure, but I went through a pretty simple process detailed below.  This could all be bullshit, but I'm going to show how your post demonstrates possibly going through a similar process.

 

Denial--  She wants time to herself, but is dating and living with another man.  You ended relationship after she said she wanted a

               break

Anger--  Writing a letter about how horrible she is

Bargaining--  Blackmail

Depression--  Is this where you are now?

Acceptance--

 

Understand, I'm not absolving her of any wrongdoing; she's not faultless, by any means.  By your own admission though, you wouldn't be happy together, and that's not suprising.  Who would want to be with someone that lies to them?  Who would want to be with someone that they didn't connect with emotionally?  I'm supremely aware of how bizarre it is to rationalize all of the emotional energy, mixed feelings, etc. regarding a failed relationship you rationally know wouldn't be fulfilling.  I did it for a long time, and I can't quite put my finger on the reason for it, but I know it's insane.  I don't go to a restaraunt and get upset because they've run out of brussel sprouts.  I don't complain to the manager, or threaten to publicize a poor review of his restaraunt.  I don't get depressed about it.  I wouldn't even like brussel sprouts, so I look for something on the menu I would like.

 

It's not up to you to fix her.

 

I'd love to hear about your childhood experiences, and your dream.  I think both might be helpful in figuring out why you are struggling with this problem.  The examination of both were very helpful for me.  I'm also curious how you feel about what I've written.

[Atticas14]

Hey, thanks everyone for the replies. I'll get into more depth as I have time, but I'm running late as is.

 

Dsayers -

   In my book tough love in my book is a parent or loved one not allowing someone to do something that you know will hurt them. Like her mother not allowing that jerk to move in after they'd dated for a month.           Maybe in this case it's none of my business, but I'm not talking about violence here.

 

   About betraying her trust, well... There is none to be betrayed. Is trust not something that is earned? Does it not disappear when she lies, deceives and manipulates? Again, this is probably another indicator that I shouldn't even be talking to the girl anymore.

 

Wuzzums -

   Typically it went back to something she was more familiar with, or something she more comfortable talking about. Example - When we were talking about our problems, considered what it would be like if we got back together, she would start talking about how stressful work is.

 

Rex

   I'll have to get back to you, super late for school now, but I would like to delve into my past if you think we can discover anything useful.

 

In the time being what should I do? Just forget the girl exists and only seek help for myself? The girl is practically helpless, she won't get help if someone doesn't hold her hand in the process.

[Atticas14]

Hey Atticus, how's it going?  I've got some incomplete thoughts, and experiences I'd like to share, but first, I want to let you know that what you're going through is no easy thing to deal with, and I'm sorry you have to deal with it at all.

 

Reading your story really resonated with me on many levels.  I've had some pretty similar experiences and I really feel your pain on a pretty personal level.  Fair warning though, because of the similarity I feel, this might just be a massive projection.  Anyhow, I dated a woman for just under 5 years and our break-up (a few years ago) was much the same as yours.  Your first paragraph would have described this woman, and our relationship quite well.  I wasted a ton of time and emotional energy on someone I knew I wouldn't be happy with, and who no longer wanted to be with me.

 

I'll be blunt with you because I wish I had people in my life who would have been blunt with me, or cared enough to really figure out what was going on in my head.  She doesn't (didn't) need time to herself, as I think you're aware; she started dating someone else days after you broke up, if not before, and quickly began living together.  What she wanted was time away from you.  She didn't want to be with you anymore.  Instead of telling you this directly, she strung you along and left the door cracked.  Maybe you're the fallback option, maybe something else is going on, I'm not sure.

 

I could talk for days about my experience but I'm not sure that would be of any use to you (more than willing to share if you'd like).  It took a long time for me and it was a struggle to be sure, but I went through a pretty simple process detailed below.  This could all be bullshit, but I'm going to show how your post demonstrates possibly going through a similar process.

 

Denial--  She wants time to herself, but is dating and living with another man.  You ended relationship after she said she wanted a

               break

Anger--  Writing a letter about how horrible she is

Bargaining--  Blackmail

Depression--  Is this where you are now?

Acceptance--

 

Understand, I'm not absolving her of any wrongdoing; she's not faultless, by any means.  By your own admission though, you wouldn't be happy together, and that's not suprising.  Who would want to be with someone that lies to them?  Who would want to be with someone that they didn't connect with emotionally?  I'm supremely aware of how bizarre it is to rationalize all of the emotional energy, mixed feelings, etc. regarding a failed relationship you rationally know wouldn't be fulfilling.  I did it for a long time, and I can't quite put my finger on the reason for it, but I know it's insane.  I don't go to a restaraunt and get upset because they've run out of brussel sprouts.  I don't complain to the manager, or threaten to publicize a poor review of his restaraunt.  I don't get depressed about it.  I wouldn't even like brussel sprouts, so I look for something on the menu I would like.

 

It's not up to you to fix her.

 

I'd love to hear about your childhood experiences, and your dream.  I think both might be helpful in figuring out why you are struggling with this problem.  The examination of both were very helpful for me.  I'm also curious how you feel about what I've written.

 

After a second read through it's starting to sink in. I think your absolutely right about most everything with the exception of the denial/anger/bargaining/depression deal. I ended the relationship, during her "break" when she refused to communicate with me about working on our relationship. I don't think I'm depressed right now, but the anger is still following me around quite often.

 

The hardest part I have accepting is that it's not up to me to fix her. I get it, it's true, but this girl is completely helpless and hopeless without someone stepping in to guide her. Her family is manipulative, and they're raised her with no self-esteem. She's so incredibly wishy washy; on several occasions during the break up she told me that she was leaving the other guy and coming back to me; only to go home and return to her old ways. Her family taught her to bend to the will of those she cares about and she was with him more often than me. The girl doesn't know how to say no, and will do anything to avoid hurting someones feelings. I suppose I'm rationalizing what I'm doing by thinking that causing a little hurt is justified if the end result is her growing into a better person. Again I'm not looking to get her back. I accept that we wouldn't be happy together. I just think abandoning the girl is dooming her to the life of the very problematic girl she is today.

 

My absolute hatred for this new guy might be another issue. I've met him before and several times he's threatened to harm me if I didn't stay away. I really want him to feel the same emotional pain that I went through.

 

About my dream. I don't remember too much of it. I remember my ex-girlfriend, her new boyfriend, and I were sitting around talking. My ex-girlfriend was making me angry with some startling confessions. He was asking her questions and I was just listening. Honestly the only question I remember is him asking her about her sexuality. He asked her whether or not she liked girls, and if she had been with a girl. She replied yes to both. There was more to it than that. There was a lot of talking and questioning, but that's all I remember. To my knowledge she isn't bi-sexual and in real life is repulsed by the idea of being with a girl.

 

What would you like to know about my childhood?

[dsayers]

   In my book tough love in my book is a parent or loved one not allowing someone to do something that you know will hurt them. Like her mother not allowing that jerk to move in after they'd dated for a month.           Maybe in this case it's none of my business, but I'm not talking about violence here.

 

"Tough love" is the act of obstructing another in some way for what you perceive to be to their benefit. It IS the initiation of force and the rejection of their self-ownership. If you think somebody is going to do something to their detriment, you can certainly try to talk them out of it with rational counterpoints.

 

   About betraying her trust, well... There is none to be betrayed. Is trust not something that is earned? Does it not disappear when she lies, deceives and manipulates? Again, this is probably another indicator that I shouldn't even be talking to the girl anymore.

 

There's two ways of addressing this. The first is: What was the context of the creation of such materials? Did she say you could take naked pictures (for example) so long as you didn't show them to anybody for as long as you were together? Did she say you could do it so long as you didn't show it to anybody at all?

 

If 1) there was no such stipulation, 2) she owns her body, and 3) she wears clothes around almost everybody (even if she works as a stripper or adult film star), there still is no reasonable expectation that who her naked form is revealed to is your decision.

 

The second way to look at it is: What is your intent in the action? To shame or harm her. So even if she said you could take such pictures and share them with whomever you like, you'd be doing yourself a disservice in doing so for the purpose of harming her. The fact that you're looking for a way to justify such an action would be enough to shock and inspire a morally conscious person to step back and get a grip.

 

What would you like to know about my childhood?

 

The thing I'd be looking for is where/how it was modeled for you that retaliation is acceptable. You made a bad choice in making yourself vulnerable to somebody who wasn't mature enough to handle that responsibly. You made a bad choice in continuing a relationship that was mutually harmful. It's pretty clear that these things would be the result of unresolved trauma, likely from your childhood. We could dig deeper into who from your childhood is responsible for normalizing these things that allowed you to make those bad choices. In the meantime, you are more responsible for the harm you've experienced because of her than she is. Retaliation will not change this. In fact, it will exacerbate it while simultaneously making you directly responsible for more destruction.

[Atticas14]

"Tough love" is the act of obstructing another in some way for what you perceive to be to their benefit. It IS the initiation of force and the rejection of their self-ownership. If you think somebody is going to do something to their detriment, you can certainly try to talk them out of it with rational counterpoints.

 

 

There's two ways of addressing this. The first is: What was the context of the creation of such materials? Did she say you could take naked pictures (for example) so long as you didn't show them to anybody for as long as you were together? Did she say you could do it so long as you didn't show it to anybody at all?

 

If 1) there was no such stipulation, 2) she owns her body, and 3) she wears clothes around almost everybody (even if she works as a stripper or adult film star), there still is no reasonable expectation that who her naked form is revealed to is your decision.

 

The second way to look at it is: What is your intent in the action? To shame or harm her. So even if she said you could take such pictures and share them with whomever you like, you'd be doing yourself a disservice in doing so for the purpose of harming her. The fact that you're looking for a way to justify such an action would be enough to shock and inspire a morally conscious person to step back and get a grip.

 

 

The thing I'd be looking for is where/how it was modeled for you that retaliation is acceptable. You made a bad choice in making yourself vulnerable to somebody who wasn't mature enough to handle that responsibly. You made a bad choice in continuing a relationship that was mutually harmful. It's pretty clear that these things would be the result of unresolved trauma, likely from your childhood. We could dig deeper into who from your childhood is responsible for normalizing these things that allowed you to make those bad choices. In the meantime, you are more responsible for the harm you've experienced because of her than she is. Retaliation will not change this. In fact, it will exacerbate it while simultaneously making you directly responsible for more destruction.

For now I can go along with all of this. I've distanced myself from the girl in the past, but I always seem to run back into the situation. I suppose I'm a glutton for pain. I don't want to hurt her further, and if I can get a hold of myself I hope I'll be able to grow away from the thoughts that bring about the rage. If it's appropriate lets go into why I feel like retaliation would have been an appropriate course of action. I understand it would of hurt her and followed her around for the rest of her life. I know that my family would have been seriously disappointed that I stooped to such a level. I know that I would have regretted it after it had taken place. So lets talk about my childhood and see if that goes anywhere.

 

I have my bachelor's in criminal justice. I always kind of believed in justice, that wrongs should be righted. I was raised as a non-denominational Christian. It was very strict. I always thought I was going to hell because everything was a sin. Hurting someone was always something that you apologized for, asked forgiveness, and then repented (you didn't do it again); and I did that for my girlfriend. I did some lousy things to her and I tried to right them the best way I knew how.

 

I was spanked. Not abused in the sense that our society would consider abuse. Spankings were on the bottom with a hand or a belt. I know this community considers it abuse and I agree. More often than not the fear of a spanking or the fear of eternal damnation in fire and brimstone was used in its stead. In first grade I remember being paddled by the principle for fighting on the playground. While in kindergarten through first grade I spent a few hours a day at a day care. There were a bunch of kids and the woman in charge of the day care was the eye for an eye type. If you hit someone, she had no problem smacking you right back. One memory is particularly strong. I don't remember how old I was, but I remember kicking my dog while my dad was watching. I don't know why I kicked the dog, but I remember my father kicking me back and asking me how I liked it (I didn't like it). When I was young I was mean to our dogs. I have one memory of taking our little dachshund out behind my house, picking it up over my head, and throwing it as hard as I could. It's horrible to think about now. I think the dog bit me (probably because I was being mean to him), and I wanted to show him who was boss. He was such a good dog too, he didn't deserve that. I'm sure there are other things, but that's all that comes to mind right now.

[ThomasDoubts]

The hardest part I have accepting is that it's not up to me to fix her. I get it, it's true, but this girl is completely helpless and hopeless without someone stepping in to guide her. Her family is manipulative, and they're raised her with no self-esteem. She's so incredibly wishy washy; on several occasions during the break up she told me that she was leaving the other guy and coming back to me; only to go home and return to her old ways. Her family taught her to bend to the will of those she cares about and she was with him more often than me. The girl doesn't know how to say no, and will do anything to avoid hurting someones feelings. I suppose I'm rationalizing what I'm doing by thinking that causing a little hurt is justified if the end result is her growing into a better person. Again I'm not looking to get her back. I accept that we wouldn't be happy together. I just think abandoning the girl is dooming her to the life of the very problematic girl she is today.

 

I don't claim to be an expert, so by all means, let me know where I'm off base.  I'm just sharing my thoughts.  I think important to really soak up the idea that she's not your responsiblity to fix.  I think it great that you realize that, but you've got to know it in your bones.  If she wanted you to fix her, she'd be with you, without doubts, be working really hard on her problems, pursuing self knowledge, and all those things but she's not.  You're doing that hard work I would assume, and she's not.

 

I hope it's not insensitive to you, but I read this paragraph and each sentence seemed more familiar to me than the last.  I felt like I was reading my life story, or a description of my ex from 3-4 years ago...  I know your life experiences are completely different than mine, but I'm having to make a real effort to seperate the two, which speaks to my shortcomings.

 

I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is this:  You dated this woman for 4 years, yet your desciptions of her shortcomings seem to be mostly made in the context of the break up.  I definately get that, the break up is what's on your right mind right?  I would be suprised though if these shortcomings weren't there most or all of the time you spent together as a couple.  I think a few reasonable questions to start with would be why you wanted to be with someone that bends to the will of anyone she cares about?  Someone who doesn't know how to say no, and will censor herself to avoid hurting feelings.  Someone who was trained to be manipulated?  Someone with no self-esteem?

 

I dated someone I would describe as very similar, and I played the role of the White Knight.  Eventually my efforts came to be taken for granted, and she wasn't willing to leave her abusive FOO.  I'd get so frustrated, and tell her "I'm not dealing with your problems, if you won't deal with them yourself."  I tried to drive a wedge between her and her abusers and she chose the abusers.  I became an abuser, and a pretty dispicable person for a while before the break-up, but eventually it came, as I'd known it would.  I never really accepted the finality the breakup, and that I was better off because of it, till probably 2 years afterwards.  Everytime she broke up with a new boyfriend, she'd come to me for an ego boost rebound that lasted a day or two, and then head right back out looking for someone new.  Fuck her for that, it would be nice to have those two years back...

 

My absolute hatred for this new guy might be another issue. I've met him before and several times he's threatened to harm me if I didn't stay away. I really want him to feel the same emotional pain that I went through.

 

I feel uncomfortable saying this, but why would he want to hang out with his girlfriend and her ex?  Unless she's inviting you over and he's taking you off to the side to make these threats, or something along those lines, I would say he's not being completely unreasonable.  You'd have to explain the context, but if you're repeatedly showing up unannounced, not invited, or unwelcome, neither your ex, nor her boyfriend have to put up with that.  If he was just threatening you out of the blue to "put you on notice" or something, then yeah, he's probably just an over agressive dick.  I'm not sure what to make of that, you'd have to explain more of the context.

 

It is interesting that you want him to feel the same emotional pain you're are feeling.  Why do you think that is?  I wouldn't think it's because he threatened you.

 

About my dream. I don't remember too much of it. I remember my ex-girlfriend, her new boyfriend, and I were sitting around talking. My ex-girlfriend was making me angry with some startling confessions. He was asking her questions and I was just listening. Honestly the only question I remember is him asking her about her sexuality. He asked her whether or not she liked girls, and if she had been with a girl. She replied yes to both. There was more to it than that. There was a lot of talking and questioning, but that's all I remember. To my knowledge she isn't bi-sexual and in real life is repulsed by the idea of being with a girl.  

 

That's interesting...  I've only really just started working on my own dream analysis so maybe someone else have some thoughts on it too.  I'm not really sure what to make of it.  Sexuality seems like an obvious theme.  This did bring up a thought for me; I believe the highest compliment you've paid this woman so far was when you said "The sex was great."  That in itself is interesting to me.  So far, in my life, my penis has been pretty good at picking vaginas, but pretty bad at picking partners.  Another thing I might pick out as important; the three of you are sitting in a group, yet you don't seem to be engaged, or interact in any way with your ex and her boyfriend.  You only listen passively, feeling anger, but neither notices it, nor acknowledges it.  I wonder if this occurred to you, and if you think it's meaningful.  I'm not sure what to make of the bisexuality bit.  If I were to hazard a guess, with little confidence, I would say it might reflect a fear/insecurity of her new boyfriend having more knowledge of her sexuality than you do.  Take that with a grain of salt unless it resonates; but I know I've felt that way.

 

What would you like to know about my childhood?

 

Again, a disclaimer that I'm no expert at this but I'll ask some of the things that come to my mind.

 

What was your parents relationship like growing up?  What kind of example was set for you in romantic relationships?

How do you feel about your childhood?  What were the main events or themes?  Basically, if you had to describe your childhood in a few paragraphs, what would you say about it?

How important were your preferences to your parents?

How were you disciplined?  Was there any violence, and if so, how much and in what way?

[dsayers]

Thanks for sharing, Atticas. You covered quite a lot of reinforced retaliation.

 

The part about your dad kicking you for kicking the dog was the most disturbing to me. He's partially responsible for raising you in a way that your brain could regard kicking the dog as alright. The fact that he was willing to kick you probably explains why in and of itself. So when you think back to that time, does it anger you that he kicked you? Does it anger you more if you accept that he was basically victimizing you for having been previously victimized by him? If you could choose between him kicking you and sitting you down to talk to you about it, which would you prefer? Was he justified in kicking you since you kicked the dog?

[Atticas14]

 

I feel uncomfortable saying this, but why would he want to hang out with his girlfriend and her ex?  Unless she's inviting you over and he's taking you off to the side to make these threats, or something along those lines, I would say he's not being completely unreasonable.  You'd have to explain the context, but if you're repeatedly showing up unannounced, not invited, or unwelcome, neither your ex, nor her boyfriend have to put up with that.  If he was just threatening you out of the blue to "put you on notice" or something, then yeah, he's probably just an over agressive dick.  I'm not sure what to make of that, you'd have to explain more of the context.

 

It is interesting that you want him to feel the same emotional pain you're are feeling.  Why do you think that is?  I wouldn't think it's because he threatened you.

 

I've never hung out with her and the new boyfriend, but at one point I got fed up with her sneaking around and lying behind both of our backs. I waited at the dudes car and talked to him when he got off work. I don't know what I thought that would accomplish, but I did it and I guess he felt very threatened. I still care for the girl, and she told me quite a few stories about him disrespecting her, verbally and sexually; so yes I hate the guy quite a bit.

 

 

I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is this:  You dated this woman for 4 years, yet your desciptions of her shortcomings seem to be mostly made in the context of the break up.  I definately get that, the break up is what's on your right mind right?  I would be suprised though if these shortcomings weren't there most or all of the time you spent together as a couple.  I think a few reasonable questions to start with would be why you wanted to be with someone that bends to the will of anyone she cares about?  Someone who doesn't know how to say no, and will censor herself to avoid hurting feelings.  Someone who was trained to be manipulated?  Someone with no self-esteem?

 

 

I really never evaluated the girl in the entire four years, and these negative personally traits never really became apparent until the break up. Honestly I don't want to be alone, I really don't have any friends and not having anyone to talk to anymore really sucks. I don't want the girl back as a lover. As I've said before we would be a disaster. A lot of this anger is because I feel partially responsible for the girl, which I am not. I feel like I'm her only hope at growing up; her only hope at getting herself out from under this mess she has brought into her life since we broke up. I'm of the opinion now that you can't force people to change, and this is her mess to clean up. However I don't have any hope for her, I think she's completely and totally doomed to live her life as it is dictated by others. She's just so malleable and simple minded; she thinks everything that happens to her is what she deserves.

 

 

What was your parents relationship like growing up?  What kind of example was set for you in romantic relationships?

How do you feel about your childhood?  What were the main events or themes?  Basically, if you had to describe your childhood in a few paragraphs, what would you say about it?

How important were your preferences to your parents?

How were you disciplined?  Was there any violence, and if so, how much and in what way?

 

My parents had, and still have, a very good relationship. I do not have any memories of them arguing or fighting. I'm sure they did, but they kept it well hidden from me. I can't really think of any examples set for romantic relationships while I was a child. I was home schooled and really didn't have much access to that type of thing until I attended ninth grade public school. Describing my child hood would again be home school, and lots and lots of video games. Porn was a big factor starting when I was like twelve. My parents put our family computer in the office which was behind my bedroom on the second floor, easy easy to sneak around and do pretty much whatever. It's probably my biggest problem today. (Edit - It seems that lots and lots of porn was my example of romantic relationships) My parents really didn't like me playing video games as much as I did. As for discipline and violence see post #8 on this topic.

 

The part about your dad kicking you for kicking the dog was the most disturbing to me. He's partially responsible for raising you in a way that your brain could regard kicking the dog as alright. The fact that he was willing to kick you probably explains why in and of itself. So when you think back to that time, does it anger you that he kicked you? Does it anger you more if you accept that he was basically victimizing you for having been previously victimized by him? If you could choose between him kicking you and sitting you down to talk to you about it, which would you prefer? Was he justified in kicking you since you kicked the dog?

 

No, I'm not mad about him kicking me. I realize that it was a poor parenting technique, but my father was punished much more harshly when he was a kid. He was a very stand off-ish father. He has done an excellent job of providing for the family, but he was never really there in the way of emotional growth. Yes, I think him talking to me would have had a much greater effect. I probably threw the poor little dachshund because of the pent up anger from my father kicking me. In my fathers mind I'm sure he was perfectly justified; but in my mind no. I've heard Stef talk about how ignorance about parenting is not an excuse for bad parenting.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Atticas14

[dsayers]

No, I'm not mad about him kicking me. I realize that it was a poor parenting technique, but my father was punished much more harshly when he was a kid.

 

What this says is that because he was assaulted, it is okay if he assaults others. By making this excuse for him, you allow this excuse for yourself. If you have this excuse and you have children, you will not take the time to negotiate with them and treat them like human beings because that's a lot harder, takes more time, and assaulting them will be okay because you were assaulted worse than you'd be assaulting them. In the meantime, it is okay for you to retaliate against others because retaliating against others is the source of the assault that was leveled upon you, which doesn't anger you. You literally cannot break the cycle of violence until it angers you to the point of saying IN THE ABSOLUTE that it is immoral to assault.

 

It's not even a good excuse. Who knows better that being assaulted by your caregivers is horrifying than somebody who was assaulted by their caregivers? Also, the phrase "poor parenting technique" significantly minimizes the destruction it causes directly and against others through you.

 

He has done an excellent job of providing for the family, but he was never really there in the way of emotional growth.

 

He has done an excellent job of providing for the family, including kickings, but not including emotional growth. This is not an excellent job of providing for the family. The one thing a parent needs to provide above all else is a safe environment. Food on the table and a roof over your head is part of it, but so is protecting you AGAINST people that would kick you. He did the exact opposite. He doesn't get points for the food on the table and the roof over your head. He's SUPPOSED TO provide that. He made that commitment when he decided to have a kid.

[Atticas14]

You literally cannot break the cycle of violence until it angers you to the point of saying IN THE ABSOLUTE that it is immoral to assault.

 

 

Alright, so is this my next step? Or where should I go from here?

[dsayers]

I don't know. I think the first step would be being honest with yourself as to whether or not assault is moral.

 

I really am glad that you posted here and that you're taking the time to share and consider the input of others. This is also an important step.

[ThomasDoubts]

I've never hung out with her and the new boyfriend, but at one point I got fed up with her sneaking around and lying behind both of our backs. I waited at the dudes car and talked to him when he got off work. I don't know what I thought that would accomplish, but I did it and I guess he felt very threatened. I still care for the girl, and she told me quite a few stories about him disrespecting her, verbally and sexually; so yes I hate the guy quite a bit.

 

 

I really never evaluated the girl in the entire four years, and these negative personally traits never really became apparent until the break up. Honestly I don't want to be alone, I really don't have any friends and not having anyone to talk to anymore really sucks. I don't want the girl back as a lover. As I've said before we would be a disaster. A lot of this anger is because I feel partially responsible for the girl, which I am not. I feel like I'm her only hope at growing up; her only hope at getting herself out from under this mess she has brought into her life since we broke up. I'm of the opinion now that you can't force people to change, and this is her mess to clean up. However I don't have any hope for her, I think she's completely and totally doomed to live her life as it is dictated by others. She's just so malleable and simple minded; she thinks everything that happens to her is what she deserves.

 

 

My parents had, and still have, a very good relationship. I do not have any memories of them arguing or fighting. I'm sure they did, but they kept it well hidden from me. I can't really think of any examples set for romantic relationships while I was a child. I was home schooled and really didn't have much access to that type of thing until I attended ninth grade public school. Describing my child hood would again be home school, and lots and lots of video games. Porn was a big factor starting when I was like twelve. My parents put our family computer in the office which was behind my bedroom on the second floor, easy easy to sneak around and do pretty much whatever. It's probably my biggest problem today. (Edit - It seems that lots and lots of porn was my example of romantic relationships) My parents really didn't like me playing video games as much as I did. As for discipline and violence see post #8 on this topic.

 

 

No, I'm not mad about him kicking me. I realize that it was a poor parenting technique, but my father was punished much more harshly when he was a kid. He was a very stand off-ish father. He has done an excellent job of providing for the family, but he was never really there in the way of emotional growth. Yes, I think him talking to me would have had a much greater effect. I probably threw the poor little dachshund because of the pent up anger from my father kicking me. In my fathers mind I'm sure he was perfectly justified; but in my mind no. I've heard Stef talk about how ignorance about parenting is not an excuse for bad parenting.

 

     Sorry for a bit of a delay in my response.  I think what you're doing here is great, and thank you for sharing your experiences.  I've really appreciated reading about them and feeling like I'm not alone in having these kinds of problems.

 

     Let me start by saying, I think it's pretty important that you weren't constantly evaluating her during the 4 years you were dating.  Could it be that it is, or was, more important to not be alone than it was to be in healthy relationships?  I get not wanting to be alone, I feel the same way.  I don't have many friends, nor anyone I feel free to talk to without censoring myself, at least to a degree.  You did say though, that conversation with your ex was really difficult, that she listened to respond rather than understand, and that there was no emotional connection.  To regain any form of relationship with her would not address your needs for meaningful conversation and emotional connection.

 

     Maybe a thought experiment would be useful:  If you were all powerful and could control the future, how might your future look, and would she be part of it?  What do you want out of life, and what kinds of people do you want to spend it with?

 

      I've become really interested in observing who people pick as partners in a relationship.  I think it kind of gives you a window into who they are.  This is an over-generalization but I found it to be true about myself, so maybe you'll find it true in yourself as well.

 

     When I'm attracted to (or attract) women who are intellectually inferior, who are not well versed in reasoning, who come from abusive backrounds, who don't pursue self knowledge, who are easily manipulated, who lack self esteem, etc. I don't have to worry about being challenged.  I become the authority figure, and am able to exercize the power of authority over my partner that was exercized over me as a child.  The fact that I've attracted, or been attracted to these types of women, is a manifestation of my desire to rule, as I was ruled over.  I'd never be able to do that with women who had high self esteem, who stood up for themselves, who were comfortable with leaving at any time, who were immune to manipulation, who were financially independent, etc.  I may, with all good intention, try to "fix" such a person, but it doesn't work.  There is a bit of irony here, in that by methodically revealing their abusers, you often reveal yourself to be among them.  This is because someone who doesn't desire control or unjust authority doesn't select as a partner, someone who was indoctrinated by unjust authorities, and has normalized the behavior.  Someone who has never been abused, or manipulated, doesn't select nor tolerate as a partner, an abuser or manipulator.

 

If I were you, I would take a look at all of the women you've attracted, or been attracted to as an adult, and try to identify common traits.  I'd then look at what those traits show me about myself, for better and for worse.  I'd then take what I've learned, and trace it back to my childhood.

 

As for the porn modelling relationships:  Yeah, I got into porn around 10-12 and it's always been a bigger part of my life than it ought to be.  In fact, I'm going to add this to the Future FDR Presentation thread.  I hesitate to say much on this topic, except that it seems intuitively not ideal, and probably destructive.

 

I agree with dsayers in regard to the incident with your father.  I think he's pretty much spot on; I don't have much to add to that except to say that prisons provide food, clothing, and shelter.

 

Let me know what you think.  I know it's not easy to talk about talk about these kinds of things, but it's really great that you're doing it.

[andrew m.]

Atticas14,

 

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm sorry for the pain it's caused you. It's a rough situation, I've been in it myself.

 

To put it nicely, it sounds like she's extremely emotionally immature and quite shallow. I'm sure you're able to recognize this already, but both are very antagonistic traits for people who enjoy philosophy heh.  Given that she's only 22, I suppose it's to be expected though. If I were you, I wouldn't waste any more time on her. I understand that you may be angry, and I feel your anger is completely justified. However I would recommend directing that anger towards the discovery of why you were attracted to someone like this in the first place.

 

Andrew

[DaisyAnarchist]

I hope I'll be able to grow away from the thoughts that bring about the rage. 

 

I wouldn't try to avoid anything that triggers rage. I don't mean that you ought to therefore put yourself into dissociative or destructive situations, but in the event that you feel enraged, I think it's important for you to stay with that. Treat all emotions like they are valid. Your emotions are you. What triggers rage in you?

 

I am so sorry about your father hitting and kicking you. That is deplorable. I hope that you come to feel this over time. You were an innocent child and you were abused.  Also, I don't believe your parents had a "really good" relationship. Not good in the sense of virtuous, seeing as your father was violent with you and I'm guessing your mother had no opposition to this? What was your relationship with your mother like? Did she hit or yell at you? Were you ever made to feel inadequate? This last statement of yours is telling, to me. It's contradictory to you saying your parents had a good relationship:

I do not have any memories of them arguing or fighting. I'm sure they did, but they kept it well hidden from me.

 

You're sure they did? So there was marital dysfunction (however big or small), but it was kept from you. So maybe this is the repetition of your history: the girl was rather avoidant of you with regards to that other guy. You picked someone who seemed to like you and seemed to want to be with you, but would hide what was really going on from you. And you feel entitled to know about that. As a child, I think you were entitled to know about that with your parents. I guess they never talked to you about any dysfunction, but you still sensed it. In which case, I would imagine that to be very unsettling for a child. How does he trust the stability of any relationship? I don't know what the connection really is though. I'm throwing around theories that come to mind. Let me know if that sounds true or not.

 

I can identify with feeling the need to interfere with a romantic interest after the relationship ended. I have felt very jealous (which I think is really inadequacy/shame) before in romantic relationships. I think the interfering is a way to avoid feeling anger at the real abusers. I felt angry that I was not given the truth. My mom didn't technically hide information from me about her relationship with my father, but... she didn't take the time to talk to me about what went on between her and my father, nor about the lack of love between her own parents. I lived with her parents as well, and I know they did not have a good relationship. They didn't even sleep in the same room together.

 

I believe strongly that everything that lead you to this girl originates with the experiences of your inner child. It will help to recognize your feelings with regard to the girl, but I think the bigger issue is how you were mistreated as a child, particularly by your parents. It should enlighten you to many other aspects of your life, including relationships.

[Atticas14]

For some reason quoting doesn't work at my work computer... So I hope you guys notice this response. Sorry for not responding sooner, but I've been doing better, doing the things I enjoyed before the break up. I still get angry going through scenarios in my head, about him and her, and what they might be doing now. That's a total waste of my time and brain power but sometimes I just can't help it.

 

 

Let me start by saying, I think it's pretty important that you weren't constantly evaluating her during the 4 years you were dating.  Could it be that it is, or was, more important to not be alone than it was to be in healthy relationships?

 

That was definitely apart of it. She was a friend, someone to talk to, if not about anything important or deep. She was fun to be around; and I definitely could have made more out of the relationship had I put more effort into it.

 

Rex - "Maybe a thought experiment would be useful:  If you were all powerful and could control the future, how might your future look, and would she be part of it? What do you want out of life, and what kinds of people do you want to spend it with?"

 

If I was all powerful I would help her grow into a mature person, an independent person who could take care of herself, and she would not bend to the will of others so easily. Her new boyfriend would probably drop dead of a brain aneurism, and I would be rich and powerful and sleep with every attractive woman on the face of the earth. Kinda shallow I guess; but ultimate power ultimately corrupts and that's probably what would happen to me.

 

Rex - "If I were you, I would take a look at all the women you've attracted, or been attracted to as an adult, and try to identify common traits. I'd then look at what those traits show me about myself, for better and for worse. I'd then take what I've learned, and trace it back to my childhood."

 

I haven't had many girlfriends. Just two, and both relationships lasted over three years. The first girl I dated was very independent, strong willed and intelligent. The second one, which we've been discussing, is a polar opposite. There's a lot of similarities to what you described earlier. I've been attracted to a lot of girls like the second one; girls that are easily controllable, unintelligent, easily manipulated, and they typically come from abusive backgrounds. I guess that tells me that I'm not looking for someone to challenge me. I don't want to work on relationships, I just want the person to exist until I'm ready to use them for my amusement. How that relates to my childhood, I dunno. Again it could be that my model of a relationship was created by pornography; so I use women in the same manor that I use porn.

 

 

 

Andrew - Thanks for the post. I appreciate your support. I'm not much of a ladies man, when a girl comes my way I jump on it. As stated above I'm 27 and I've only had two relationships. I don't get around many women so my selection is extremely limited. I know that's not a good excuse, but in the past I've had to make the decision to either be alone, or be with someone who really isn't compatible with me; and I've always chosen to not be alone.

 

 

 

 

What triggers rage in you?

 

Thinking about my ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend abusing her. Thinking about her being happy with him but stringing me along. Thinking about her just going with the flow, letting everyone around her dictate what she should do in life. Thinking about the bad decisions she's making in life. Thinking about her letting him move in after they had only known each other for a month; thinking about them having a sexual relationship so quickly after we ended ours.

 

About my parents, yes there was an occasional spanking. The kicking incident was an isolated thing, it's the only memory I have about my father "disciplining" me. I understand that it was less than ideal, even wrong, for them to do those things; and I know this is me trying to minimize their wrong doings, but I had it a lot better than a lot of other people out there. I'm not complaining about what they did to me. Could It have been handled better? Yes, but it wasn't and I don't see the benefit of my holding it against them. I realize it was wrong and it had a negative effect on my growing mind; but what is the end goal of me realizing all the abuses I suffered as a child? I understand that everyone here is trying to get me to realize that the abuses I suffered as a child play a large role in how I feel now, but I don't understanding how knowing that helps me overcome and mature.

 

I don't think any relationship is without it's ups and downs. Wouldn't my parents concealing the negatives of their relationship from their children be a positive thing? I don't recall any moments where they were noticeably mad at each other or having any difficulties at all. I was never worried about the mental or physical state of my parents or their relationship. I never sensed any dysfunction, I'm just assuming their was dysfunction because every relationship has it.

 

I'm definitely jealous of her current relationship, but I'm more worried about the lack of emotional support and growth I provided while we were together. I was just apart of the cycle of abuse she's dealt with her entire life; and I'm sorry for that. I still feel like the girl is doomed to remain in that cycle unless someone intercedes in her life.

 

Edit:  I didn't really address my relationship with my mother. She was the primary source of discipline, and support. I was homeschool from first to ninth grade, she was my teacher and was always there for me. I really don't have any complaints, or maybe I just don't know what to expect from parents.

[SaturnGreed]

ive been in your position before bro. And the best thing is to just be the bigger man and move on. For me, I had nudes of my ex girlfriend and i posted them to all her friends on facebook and the guy that she cheated on me with to get revenge. But now i totally regret ever doing that. Thinking back, i dont even know why i was that mad in the first place since we only been together for 6 months. I now have another girlfrriend and happier than ever. You just need to have the confidence to move on. I even had to to resort to the book at http://www.freedatinghelper.com/review/the-tao-of-badass-review-bringing-out-the-inner-badass/ to gain my confidence back. Good luck to you bro and i hope you move on without regrets.

[Atticas14]

ive been in your position before bro. And the best thing is to just be the bigger man and move on. For me, I had nudes of my ex girlfriend and i posted them to all her friends on facebook and the guy that she cheated on me with to get revenge. But now i totally regret ever doing that. Thinking back, i dont even know why i was that mad in the first place since we only been together for 6 months. I now have another girlfrriend and happier than ever. You just need to have the confidence to move on. Good luck to you bro and i hope you move on without regrets.

 

Thanks for the reply... Believe me I know I would regret it, but the "get even" side of me that produces absolutely nothing at all good in my life just screams to do it. Moving on hasn't been so simple to me. She keeps calling me, and I keep calling her back. I don't know what the point of continuing any relationship with her is at this point, but I haven't been able to just walk away despite having tried many a time.

[dsayers]

the "get even" side of me that produces absolutely nothing at all good in my life just screams to do it

 

It IS a good part of your life, you're just not listening to it. It's not screaming to get back at her, it's identifying that this is harmful and screaming for you to get away from it and not get into something like it again.

[DaisyAnarchist]

I realize it was wrong and it had a negative effect on my growing mind; but what is the end goal of me realizing all the abuses I suffered as a child? 

 

Seeing its connection with the present. If you suffered no trauma from your childhood, or if you processed the trauma that you did suffer, do you think that you would feel rage toward a girl that you do not have an emotional or intellectual connection with?

 

This is how you described your parents. I'm going to quote it and then replace them with "friend." I think you will have a different reaction:

 

I realize it was wrong and it had a negative effect on my growing mind; but what is the end goal of me realizing all the abuses I suffered as a child? 

 

"I realize it was wrong for my friend to physically assault me, but we had a much better relationship than some other friends do. I just don't understand the goal in me realizing the abuse I suffered at the hands of my friend."

 

Get angry at the "friend" and leave him. You have better standards than that, right? 

 

I would think the end goal is to feel rage toward the original source of pain for you. Toward the people that you couldn't leave. You are exactly right when you say that you minimize what your parents did you. It is horrendous to me that they assaulted you at all, and it would be even more horrendous if they did anything like this when you were an infant. That stage of life is where a lot of our unprocessed trauma occurred. If an adult yells at another adult, that's one thing. It could be jarring, but adults can handle that. They speak each other's language. They can physically stand their ground. Do you think a child or an infant could handle being yelled at? No way! They would be so harmed! Because you normalize your abuse, you did not feel the rage that came up for you when your parents abused you. And how could you? Children cannot go elsewhere like you can go elsewhere with this girl. If children find themselves with abusive parents, they're stuck with that shit, unless they actually realize that they're being mistreated and are able to find help. Usually, they do what they can to survive. If your parents desired a certain emotional response from you, usually that means you suppressed your real emotions. Those don't go away. They stay with you in your body until you genuinely experience them. It's sort of like trying to keep a buoy underneath water. Present situations can trigger past experiences for you, and if you do not allow yourself to experience what you as a child experienced at the hands of your parents, then you will keep seeking abusive relationships in the hopes that they will mend themselves. The rage will come up again and be directed at the wrong sources. Let the buoy go, feel the rage of your child self. I think if you can do that, then in time you will not obsess about what your ex girlfriend does with her life.

 

That is the best way that I can explain it at this point. I have not processed all of my rage, so I don't know if there is a better way to explain this. I think I have also heard suppressed trauma being described as a black box, where the emotions were locked away. I hope the imagery helps and that it makes more sense to you. 

[ThomasDoubts]

Hey Atticas, how are you?  How have things been going?

 

I want to apologize to you for not responding to your message sooner.  It's been more than a month, and I just now saw your message.  I'll be starting another thread shortly, and among other things I'll be explaining why I haven't been active on the boards for several weeks.  I wouldn't ignore you and I'm sorry.  I really appreciate you having some regard for my thoughts, and I hope you're doing well. 

 

 

For some reason quoting doesn't work at my work computer... So I hope you guys notice this response. Sorry for not responding sooner, but I've been doing better, doing the things I enjoyed before the break up. I still get angry going through scenarios in my head, about him and her, and what they might be doing now. That's a total waste of my time and brain power but sometimes I just can't help it.

 

 

I know what you mean, man.  It's like that old joke: "Don't think about elephants."  Of course, the first thing you think about is an elephant. That's how I felt anyways, for the longest time.  Almost everything about my life: places, foods, clothes, smells, sounds, fuck... almost anything would trigger some sort of thought pattern down a rabbit hole that inevitably lead to something about my ex and once it was in the foreground of my mind, it was hard to get rid of it.  Truth be told, I probably didn't fully want to get rid of it.  I was pretty sure I was just wasting time and brain power, as you said (and I'd add emotional energy), and that I ought not be doing it.  The problem for me was that by consciously trying to direct my thoughts elsewhere, I drew my thoughts precisely to the things I was trying to avoid.  I still have sort-of fleeting thoughts or emotions from time to time, regarding my ex, and I don't know that I'm dealing with that the right way or not... Or what the right way to deal with that even is...  I don't know, exactly.  I'm about as sure as I can be that I've passed the highwater mark, so to speak, but I'm not sure how healthily (If that's a word ) I dealt with that.  To what extent I may have repressed or censored myself, I can't say; Either massively or not much at all, I think, but I don't know. I wish I had the confidence to say more.

 

 

That was definitely apart of it. She was a friend, someone to talk to, if not about anything important or deep. She was fun to be around; and I definitely could have made more out of the relationship had I put more effort into it.

 

Yup, I get it.  You left out the best part though--  having someone who's willing to have sex with you on a regular basis

 

In all seriousness though, I would point out that you've sort-of just shouldering the blame for the relationship not working out, without acknowledging her role. Surely, she shared in the responsibility. I know that you know this, but I feel like it's important to point out.  

 

My grandfather used to always tell me as a child, "If you love what you do, you'll never work a day in you're life."  In many ways I think the same is true of relationships.  I look around and I see so many people exerting massive amounts of energy trying to shove a square peg in a round hole.  <--Hahah, I swear, I'm not talking about sex, but it might be kinda funny if I was .  Ok, back on topic. 

 

Another way I think about it is kind of in terms of economics.  One of the bigger stories on my radar recently was the failure of Mt.Gox.  If I can generalize, there are basically two ideas:  Mt.Gox's failure spells the doom of Bitcoin, or, Mt.Gox's failure was the best possible thing that could happen for Bitcoin.  The latter is more convincing to me.  All of the resources that had been, and were being directed towards a defunct exchange that was never going to be able to handle increasing volumes of trade have now been released to pursue the infinite possibilities that exist in the future, and may have yet to even be created.  I guess the term would be "creative destruction."  I think the same is true for a bad/incompatible relationship.  For me, all the the heartache I felt when I was in a similar situation was real and I know that because I felt it. At the same time, the end of that relationship meant I was free to pursue a relationship with one of the other 3+Billion women on the planet.  I had to ask myself, could I do better?  It was impossible for me to say no and sort-of believe it in my bones.  I'm rambling a bit, but the point I'm making is that, for me, in my similar experience, it was simultaneously the absolute worst, and the absolute best thing that could possibly have happened to me.  It's just a matter of perspective, I think.  I suspect the same may be true for you, but that's for your judgement. 

 

 

Rex - "Maybe a thought experiment would be useful:  If you were all powerful and could control the future, how might your future look, and would she be part of it? What do you want out of life, and what kinds of people do you want to spend it with?"

 

If I was all powerful I would help her grow into a mature person, an independent person who could take care of herself, and she would not bend to the will of others so easily. Her new boyfriend would probably drop dead of a brain aneurism, and I would be rich and powerful and sleep with every attractive woman on the face of the earth. Kinda shallow I guess; but ultimate power ultimately corrupts and that's probably what would happen to me.

 

Ok, so I was thinking of how I should respond to this, and it occured me:  how would I answer my own question, that I posed to you?  I think I'd probably cross-polinate marijuana with Hermione Granger's vagina and either smoke, or live inside, the offspring.  I'd probably also make it possible to colonize outer space.  No doubt, this is invaluable information to you. 

 

Kidding aside, you said that if you were all powerful, you'd help her grow and mature into an independent minded and self-sufficient person who doesn't bend to the will of others.  I think this is a net-positive goal, perhaps even noble, but I'm left wondering:  With God-like powers, why do all of these things for her when you could help every human being on this planet grow and mature into an independent minded and self-sufficient person who doesn't bend to the will of others?  I have no idea what the meanings/implications are that lie behind that but I find it interesting nonetheless. 

 

With regard to lusting for resources and women; I'll try not to hold your humanity against you.    You call it shallow, I call it nature. 

 

 

Rex - "If I were you, I would take a look at all the women you've attracted, or been attracted to as an adult, and try to identify common traits. I'd then look at what those traits show me about myself, for better and for worse. I'd then take what I've learned, and trace it back to my childhood."

 

I haven't had many girlfriends. Just two, and both relationships lasted over three years. The first girl I dated was very independent, strong willed and intelligent. The second one, which we've been discussing, is a polar opposite. There's a lot of similarities to what you described earlier. I've been attracted to a lot of girls like the second one; girls that are easily controllable, unintelligent, easily manipulated, and they typically come from abusive backgrounds. I guess that tells me that I'm not looking for someone to challenge me. I don't want to work on relationships, I just want the person to exist until I'm ready to use them for my amusement. How that relates to my childhood, I dunno. Again it could be that my model of a relationship was created by pornography; so I use women in the same manor that I use porn.

 

 

Or perhaps you use women as your parents used you?  Just to be clear, I'm only speculating. Would it be fair to say that either/both of your parents resenting being challenged?  That either/both had little desire to work on their relationship with you?  That either/both preferred your existence only when you were amusing to them?

 

I'm also curious now about your experience with the first relationship?  Sort of how and/or why it ended?  The experience as a whole? 

 

In the interest of full disclosure, I have this incessant need to temper everything meaningful that I ever say.  You've officially had twice as many lasting/serious relationships as I've had, and I'll be 26 in a few weeks.  I want to tell you to take everything I say with a grain of salt, even though I think it's worth more than that.  I suppose it's your judgement that matters...

 

Thinking about my ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend abusing her. Thinking about her being happy with him but stringing me along. Thinking about her just going with the flow, letting everyone around her dictate what she should do in life. Thinking about the bad decisions she's making in life. Thinking about her letting him move in after they had only known each other for a month; thinking about them having a sexual relationship so quickly after we ended ours.

 

I genuinely don't have any suspicions on how you might reply to these questions but maybe considering them could be useful.  Or entirely useless.  As always, your judgement, if you're honest with yourself, is much more valuable than mine; I'm just trying to provoke thoughts and/or perspectives that may not have occured to you. 

 

Do you have any reason to believe/suspect her new boyfriend is abusive to her?  It wouldn't overly surprise me if that were the case, but if it were, I'd also be curious to what extent, if any, you were abusive to her?  In the interest of being open and honest, and perhaps confessing in a self-serving manner, I admit that on one intoxicated occasion, not that it's any excuse, I slapped in face, and threw to the ground, an ex-girlfriend, while feeling nothing but rage and sheer hatred in my heart.  It's a shame that I will carry with me til the day I die. 

 

To what extent, as a child, did you "go with the flow," letting your parents dictate everything you should do in life?  If, to a significant extent, is that something you were already consciously aware of, or have I provided an insight? In other words, might you view your feelings/actions as an attempt at protecting another innocent human being from the abuses you suffered?  Or perhaps, the opposite:  your feelings/actions as a replication/enaction of abusive parents directed at the vulnerable.

 

You said you've only really had two serious romantic relationships in your life; I've had one.  I have, however, done my fair share of "sleeping around," as they say.  I've had roughly 8-10 sexual partners, kind-of dependent on what qualifies as a sexual partner.  If sandpaper handjobs during bad-breath make-out sessions don't count, I'd probably bump down to 7-8 partners.  I wonder if this is also the case for you or not?  The reason I ask, is because I'm curious how you might respond to an attractive vulnerable woman who happens to throw herself at you.  Is there any circumstance in this universe under which you may have considered having a sexual relationship with another woman shortly after your relationship ended?  In other words, did you lack the desire or the opportunity to be with another woman? 

 

My intention isn't to call you out as a hypocrite or anything, but I think the question may(or maynot) illustrate a sort of societal misconception, if such a thing can exist.  Right, like I used to have this retarded belief that if "she" sleeps around, or dare to see someone else, she ought be branded a whorish-slut-shedevil.  Whereas, if I sleep around, or see other people, I've either earned it by virtue of my heartbreak, or simply behaved as a man was intended to behave. 

 

I know I'm sort-of coming after you in a challenging manner all the way through this post.  Please, please, don't take this personally in any way.  I don't give a fuck about your ex, for better or for worse, but I do care about you.  My only intention is to provide food for thought.  By all means, chew it up and either spit it out, or swallow it, as you see fit.   

 

 

 

About my parents, yes there was an occasional spanking. The kicking incident was an isolated thing, it's the only memory I have about my father "disciplining" me. I understand that it was less than ideal, even wrong, for them to do those things; and I know this is me trying to minimize their wrong doings, but I had it a lot better than a lot of other people out there. I'm not complaining about what they did to me. Could It have been handled better? Yes, but it wasn't and I don't see the benefit of my holding it against them. I realize it was wrong and it had a negative effect on my growing mind; but what is the end goal of me realizing all the abuses I suffered as a child? I understand that everyone here is trying to get me to realize that the abuses I suffered as a child play a large role in how I feel now, but I don't understanding how knowing that helps me overcome and mature.

 

I don't think any relationship is without it's ups and downs. Wouldn't my parents concealing the negatives of their relationship from their children be a positive thing? I don't recall any moments where they were noticeably mad at each other or having any difficulties at all. I was never worried about the mental or physical state of my parents or their relationship. I never sensed any dysfunction, I'm just assuming their was dysfunction because every relationship has it.

 

As the son of a massive alcoholic, I have mixed feelings about this.  When my mother protected me from witnessing my father at his worst, was it for the best?  Ya know, I don't really know... Right, like I've adopted this belief that the truth is always preferable to a lie.  I've also adopted the believe that the truth is always preferable to a sort-of deceptive maintainance of an illusory status quo(fundementally, also a lie).  As much as I value protecting the innocent child, I have a real issue with doing so at the expense of the truth.  Just last week, I was looking for something in a bunch of old storage boxes in my attic and came across a short story I'd written in 2nd grade.  Having no recollection of writing the story, I opened to the first page and read, "This story is dedicated to my father who has given up drinking alcohol."  The problem is, he didn't get sober til 6-7 years later.  Where I'd gotten this idea as a 2nd grader that my father had quit drinking, I can't say.  What I can say is that it wasn't true, and the lie served only one purpose, which was to conceal the truth in favor of a false narrative.  Perhaps it made my life less stressful/tramautic, but it also made my life, and my beliefs, a lie. Right, like I'd prefer that the Holocaust occured, and be well documented, than having had it occur, but be whitewashed from the pages of history.  Truth always has utility, in my view. 

 

I'm definitely jealous of her current relationship, but I'm more worried about the lack of emotional support and growth I provided while we were together. I was just apart of the cycle of abuse she's dealt with her entire life; and I'm sorry for that. I still feel like the girl is doomed to remain in that cycle unless someone intercedes in her life.

 

This might be kinda silly but I'm reminded of the movie The Guardian with Kevin Costner & Ashton Kutcher.  It's all about Coast Guard rescue swimmers, if you haven't seen it.  Anyhow, there's this scene where Kutcher asks his mentor, Costner, "How do you decide who to save when you can't save them all?"  The answer was simple:  "You save the ones you can, and the rest, you have to learn to let go."  I don't presume to tell you what you ought to do, but I share it because it occured to me.  I hardly know anything about your ex, but I do know that it's possible to spend your entire life trying to save one individual, and never having any success.  I'd caution against allowing yourself to fall into such a trap.  

 

Edit:  I didn't really address my relationship with my mother. She was the primary source of discipline, and support. I was homeschool from first to ninth grade, she was my teacher and was always there for me. I really don't have any complaints, or maybe I just don't know what to expect from parents.

 

 

Daisy's post(#22), particularly the 2nd half, in my opinion, is beautiful, brilliant, and spot on.  I'd give it careful consideration. 

 

My apologies again, for talking so long to reply.  I sincerely hope I've encouraged at least one novel thought.  Please, let me know if I've been helpful to you at all; I'd really like to be as useful to others as I possibly can.