ROLLNSONG Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 I need some serious advice, here is the situation: I have two children, ages 6 and 8. The father and I separated in November of 2009. The problem is my ex and his parents (with whom he lives) and his sister (whom they spend a lot of time with when they are in his care) provide a living situation that is very unhealthy, aggressive and abusive. Some examples: Discipline- *Spanking, at times with implements (I was recently made aware of an incident in which the aunt spanked my daughter with a paint stir-stick because my daughter blew out a candle) *Time-outs over things like: asking what time it is repeatedly *Extensive yelling *And, I believe, one or both of them has been slapped in the face at least once for "mouthing off" Medical- *My daughter has moderate persistent asthma. Both the father and grandfather smoke around them, including in the car and he may not be making sure that she takes her medicine. He tells me often that "she doesn't need that stuff" and "she doesn't have asthma". He's also of the belief that if you don't speak the illness over her then God will ...idk ...wipe it away? pretend it never happened? (Still not sure on what his view of this is, I mean if you don't acknowledge someone is sick you can't expect God to heal them?????) Furthermore, her doctor is confident that her dosages of her steroid inhaler could be cut in half if he would stop smoking around her. Prednisone is known to cause many bad side effects that would be avoided or at least decreased with a lower dosage. Diet- Pretty much all sugar all the time. Purple drank, McDonalds, massive amounts of candy, chips, and sweets, etc.. Other dangerous/aggressive situations- *They often do not use child safety seats in the car or do not install them properly, they often load six (7 years and under) kids in the back seat of a car *My son (then 5) was often allowed to ride in the front seat of "daddy's race car" *When a tooth is lose, the grandmother takes it upon herself to yank it out, whether it is ready or not, causing much pain and bleeding. This has happened to each of my children. *While they are at their father's they spend extensive time with their many cousins. All but one of these cousins (there are a total of, I think, 8, maybe more) are physically violent, verbally aggressive and constantly bully my children. *I was told that sometimes the kids are left alone for the older one to watch the younger one. (This was denied by both the father and the grandmother. But my daughter and son both told the story...) *The children are permitted to watch hours and hours of television, and are even subjected to violent/scary adult movies. (There was a specific incident last summer where they watched a horror movie and were so terrified that they couldn't sleep in their own beds for about a month.) *The family is very religious and the children are punished (spanking/timeouts) if they don't pray before meals or if they say anything about not believing in God, etc. I'm sure the first question will be, "Have you addressed these issues?" Yes. I have. Repeatedly and over many years. Many of these problems were present even in the toddler years. I have tried addressing these issues peacefully in person, on the phone, and in writing. I am always dismissed. He always has some BS response that doesn't even address the issue that I'm trying discuss. He tends to respond with non-answers that are so nonsensical that I have no idea what he's talking about, and then he just ends the conversation. When we were together, he told me over and over in such conversations, "I don't communicate." OR he'll cut me off and start attacking me. "Do wanna know what the kids say about you?" "Yes! If I'm doing something wrong I want to know!" "Forget it." Repeat. Repeat. End conversation. (Yes, that was a real conversation.) I have tried presenting him with pamphlets and have emailed data, statistics, and case studies on smoking, the use of car seats, asthma, diet, and why a four year old shouldn't be driving a four-wheeler. He refuses to read them. His response is usually along the lines of, "I don't believe in that stuff." "You gotta have faith." Etc... I have been counseled by those close to me and the situation (including other peaceful parents and another FDR listener) to cut him off and not allow him to have the children any more. But...I'm having a hard time with that choice. I can't deny that the situation is dangerous, abusive, and neglectful, and anything but peaceful. But I still question: do I have the right to keep the children from their father? I want to say yes...I'm doing this for their good! But let's be honest, I'm the one that chose the man, we started dating, got engaged and then pregnant in a three month whirlwind, and then stayed with him for 4 1/2 years despite affairs and complete emotional distance....I've fucked up a lot. I've made some really stupid choices...so...I don't exactly trust my own judgement. I'm also stuck on this idea of "it's not that bad...he loves them...he doesn't beat them." I'm constantly comparing it to my childhood which was an extreme example of all types of abuse and severe neglect. I can't picture them ever getting a broken bone from their father...but then again, they could be decapitated by an air bag if they sit in the front seat. ...So... I don't know! I'm confused. I can't go back and change any of my past stupid choices, but I want to make the absolute best choices for my kids from here on out. So, my question to you enlightened FDR listeners: is it more dangerous to my children to cut their father out or to allow him to continue as is, seeing as he won't change. FYI, due to the fact that we live in different states, the kids spend every fourth week with him. I homeschool them (a point of contention between he and I) and they eat a very healthy diet here. I am working very hard on overcoming my own childhood issues and have committed myself to peaceful parenting. I've been weeding out every aggressive or poisonous person from my life, so there are very few people for them to be damaged by here. I know that if I cut him out of their lives I wont be able to rely on him for child support, which we finally got settled out of court after a long and frustrating process. I probably will have no choice but to go back to work full time, which I have done for most of their lives, and life is soooo much better when I can stay home and actually focus on their school and general well being. So, I feel like that may be something to weigh in on as well...if they have to suffer further damage because I'm working full time, does that really help them? I'm happy to answer any more questions, but I tried to be thorough.
dsayers Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 I'm also stuck on this idea of "it's not that bad...he loves them...he doesn't beat them." I made this same excuse for my father for the longest time. I also used this excuse for not giving my mother full credit even after I realized she was abusive. It assigns an analog evaluation to something which is fundamentally moral or immoral. Essentially bypassing the moral consideration. The reason this is a problem is because, what if he takes a step further down the wrong path? It would be easier to say "he's only taken 3 steps instead of 4." Then he takes another step and it's "he's only taken 4 steps instead of 5." You describe a bevy of abuse, and it's all immoral. Compounded by the fact that I'd wager he only treats/exposes the defenseless children this way. The problem is that it sounds as if the time to pull the plug on such things would've been awhile back. The children may have normalized these things by now. I bring this up because my first inclination was to recommend talking to the children. Get their thoughts and interpretations. See if they notice the difference between (for example) their diets in the two places. Whether or not they can recognize the value of the short term pleasure versus the long term side-effects. However, if there were years of inaction (from their perspective; I know you've mentioned an ongoing struggle) and they're being bribed by junk food, they may not understand how harmful the environmental disparities are. I don't think allowing them to be abused 1/4 of the time is worth any monetary compensation. Though I do recognize that financial assistance can enhance the positive influence you could have. It's a pickle for sure. While I wouldn't outright recommend a path that would have you away from them more often, they're already past the age where they need your constant presence. On the other hand, were you to try and fight for full custody by way of courts, it could end up being that much more harmful to them, especially since in the interim, it might be used against you. As a child of divorced parents, I know all too well what it's like to be used as a weapon against another person. I'll end my filibustering by reiterating talking to the children. Try to gauge their perspective. If they have the capacity to understand, be forthcoming and honest with them. Let them know that you made a mistake in choosing that man. That you made a mistake in allowing them to be exposed to this level of abuse. Let them know the abuses that you suffered and that it's your inspiration to protect them. It's the only way you'll be able to diminish his presence in their lives and not come out as a bad person/hypocrite yourself. It's clear you're honest with yourself about this, let them see this. They're going to make mistakes in their lives too. Part of it is going to be because of these mistakes. If you own them and model for them what it is to be responsible, I think you'll be doing well by them regardless of which way you choose to proceed. I hope this was helpful and I appreciate your sensitivity and honesty in this. If I could, I'd certainly choose you for a mom over the one I had.
ROLLNSONG Posted January 17, 2014 Author Posted January 17, 2014 I made this same excuse for my father for the longest time. I also used this excuse for not giving my mother full credit even after I realized she was abusive. It assigns an analog evaluation to something which is fundamentally moral or immoral. Essentially bypassing the moral consideration. The reason this is a problem is because, what if he takes a step further down the wrong path? It would be easier to say "he's only taken 3 steps instead of 4." Then he takes another step and it's "he's only taken 4 steps instead of 5." I often tend to justify. : ( The problem is that it sounds as if the time to pull the plug on such things would've been awhile back. The children may have normalized these things by now. I bring this up because my first inclination was to recommend talking to the children. Get their thoughts and interpretations. See if they notice the difference between (for example) their diets in the two places. Whether or not they can recognize the value of the short term pleasure versus the long term side-effects. However, if there were years of inaction (from their perspective; I know you've mentioned an ongoing struggle) and they're being bribed by junk food, they may not understand how harmful the environmental disparities are. I have had a running dialogue with the kids about it for years now. They have a very good understanding of what is different and what is healthy and what is detrimental. But...they love their dad. And they miss him when they're away. My daughter is starting to clam up when I start asking about what goes on. She knows the problems and is afraid of "losing" her dad and all of that family. I've felt the same way about my own abusers, so I can understand. I don't think allowing them to be abused 1/4 of the time is worth any monetary compensation. Right. I do agree. I hope this was helpful and I appreciate your sensitivity and honesty in this. If I could, I'd certainly choose you for a mom over the one I had. Thank you.
dsayers Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 I often tend to justify. : ( If you don't mind what might appear as nitpicking, I'd like to offer a word of caution. This quote here is you taking ownership for something that you identify as defective. It's likely more accurate that you were once subjected to abuse that required you to not address it outside yourself for the sake of self-preservation. This is really important because by owning it, you're letting whomever is actually responsible off the hook. In order to do that, you have to make excuses for them. At which point, you risk allowing those same excuses for yourself, which would only perpetuate the cycle. I have had a running dialogue with the kids about it for years now. They have a very good understanding of what is different and what is healthy and what is detrimental. But...they love their dad. And they miss him when they're away. My daughter is starting to clam up when I start asking about what goes on. She knows the problems and is afraid of "losing" her dad and all of that family. I've felt the same way about my own abusers, so I can understand. That is rough. In the running dialogue, have you been up front with them about your responsibility for his abuse in their life? It seems like a bit of a contradiction for them to understand the differences, yet long for the abusive environment. I'd wager that the 8 yr old is probably old enough to process the data linked to being exposed to smoking while they still have developing lungs. Same with the junk food diet, which I suspect might be part of a bribery. Or maybe I'm projecting. My parents divorced early on and I remember my father took advantage of having us less often than my mother by bribing us with perpetual fun (mostly). I too couldn't see the abuse that was there past the laughs and the happy meals. Of course I didn't have anybody reasoning with me, so they might not be comparable. I hope when your daughter clams up, you try and let her know that it's important to you that she's always free to talk with you about anything and everything. Obviously this isn't the kind of lesson that she can be told, it has to be demonstrated. For example, let's suppose the constant struggle you've had with their father is something he has already used to try and make them think you're manipulative. This would certainly inspire in your daughter a hesitation in being honest if there are perceived effects she would rather avoid. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you haven't already realized, but it's worth mentioning as it's just so important.
son272 Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 Would it make sense to offer the father lesser degrees of visitation? I think the situation is clearly abusive, so does that warrant total restriction, or is there a happy-medium? Perhaps supervised visitation or leaving the kids with someone you can trust while he is around? Besides keeping them safe, which is priority #1, I'm thinking the example set for the kids would be "when someone is abusive, you distance yourself. If it's someone who is important to you or can be helpful to you in life or the relationship can be repaired, don't be too quick to eliminate them altogether". Is that too soft of an approach? I feel like I wouldn't suggest this if he wasn't their father, but instead was some abusive uncle or something. Am i being illogical?
ROLLNSONG Posted January 21, 2014 Author Posted January 21, 2014 If you don't mind what might appear as nitpicking, I'd like to offer a word of caution. This quote here is you taking ownership for something that you identify as defective. It's likely more accurate that you were once subjected to abuse that required you to not address it outside yourself for the sake of self-preservation. This is really important because by owning it, you're letting whomever is actually responsible off the hook. In order to do that, you have to make excuses for them. At which point, you risk allowing those same excuses for yourself, which would only perpetuate the cycle. That is rough. In the running dialogue, have you been up front with them about your responsibility for his abuse in their life? It seems like a bit of a contradiction for them to understand the differences, yet long for the abusive environment. I'd wager that the 8 yr old is probably old enough to process the data linked to being exposed to smoking while they still have developing lungs. Same with the junk food diet, which I suspect might be part of a bribery. Or maybe I'm projecting. My parents divorced early on and I remember my father took advantage of having us less often than my mother by bribing us with perpetual fun (mostly). I too couldn't see the abuse that was there past the laughs and the happy meals. Of course I didn't have anybody reasoning with me, so they might not be comparable. I hope when your daughter clams up, you try and let her know that it's important to you that she's always free to talk with you about anything and everything. Obviously this isn't the kind of lesson that she can be told, it has to be demonstrated. For example, let's suppose the constant struggle you've had with their father is something he has already used to try and make them think you're manipulative. This would certainly inspire in your daughter a hesitation in being honest if there are perceived effects she would rather avoid. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you haven't already realized, but it's worth mentioning as it's just so important. Thanks I appreciate the input! Would it make sense to offer the father lesser degrees of visitation? I think the situation is clearly abusive, so does that warrant total restriction, or is there a happy-medium? Perhaps supervised visitation or leaving the kids with someone you can trust while he is around? Besides keeping them safe, which is priority #1, I'm thinking the example set for the kids would be "when someone is abusive, you distance yourself. If it's someone who is important to you or can be helpful to you in life or the relationship can be repaired, don't be too quick to eliminate them altogether". Is that too soft of an approach? I feel like I wouldn't suggest this if he wasn't their father, but instead was some abusive uncle or something. Am i being illogical? No this seems like a logical solution. I have been considering it. I expect that he would throw a fit and not cooperate, but I'd be willing to take that chance. There are some other hold ups such as where my children and I would stay in that area. I wouldn't be able to rent a two day hotel every month and he wouldn't be willing to pay for it. If I can figure this out, I'd like to give it a try.
son272 Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Thanks I appreciate the input! No this seems like a logical solution. I have been considering it. I expect that he would throw a fit and not cooperate, but I'd be willing to take that chance. There are some other hold ups such as where my children and I would stay in that area. I wouldn't be able to rent a two day hotel every month and he wouldn't be willing to pay for it. If I can figure this out, I'd like to give it a try. Well if you have no place to stay in his area, then that option is ruled out. If priority #1 is keeping the kids safe, and if that means supervised visits, then find another place to supervise his visits.
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