A Soldier's Quandary

[rvd1981]

Hi folks. I'll get right to it. I've been listening to Stefan's podcasts and watching his videos for a little while now and I agree with him on a lot of things. However there's one big thing that I can't quite help but object to. He keeps insisting that soldiers are all murderers. Now, to be up front, I've served eight years in the US Army (divided between active duty and Reserves) so I probably bring a little different perspective to the whole thing than Stef does. I've always thought of myself as a necessary evil at best and at worst a janitor. I don't make the messes (at least directly. I realize that my taxes go to a government that...is morally questionable on a good day) but I get called in to clean them up. And for the record I've never eaten a baby or anything like Stef implies that all military types do because we're all evil sociopaths. I don't want to hurt anybody however I'm not so idealistic as to fool myself into thinking that it's all fluffy bunnies and happy puppies out there. There's bad people out there (granted the vast majority of them are created and funded by some government or another) and I'd like to think that  I'm doing my little bit to keep them the heck away from the people I care about.And as far as the whole 'Military people aren't big on negotiation' and the like that Stef's also repeated a few times...it's like this. I've found that treating people like human beings (in the Army or out) gets you *much* farther than just shouting at them. I always use 'please' and 'thank you' even when I'm talking to a subordinate. Heck, the vast majority of bad bosses I've had have actually been in the civilian world. Anyways, I welcome your thoughts on this O my fellow Message Board Posting People. 

[dsayers]

I've been thinking about how to respond to this. Upon my initial reading, my biggest concern was your personal investment. I'm not sure what you aim to get from this thread. If it's the objective truth, the subjective opinion and anecdotal evidence have no place here. However, I've decided to base the bulk of my reply around a single word that you used:

 

Necessary.

 

From an epistemological standpoint, "necessary" is an enormous word. It's like law. "How do you feel about gravity?" "Who cares, we're bound by it either way." If something can be identified as necessary, there's not too much to gain from talking about it. There's not too much responsibility to accrue when utilizing it. Most people who use the phrase "necessary evil" are trying to avoid responsibility for said evil.

 

I'm in the middle of a discussion with a friend of mine as to whether or not such a thing exists. If you accept self-ownership, then you understand that "necessary evil" could be categorized as either necessary theft, assault, rape, or murder. Keeping in mind that these words denote the initiation of the use of force and not killing somebody who's trying to kill you in the moment. I for one cannot see how there could be a necessary evil. However I do know that the moment somebody calls something a necessary evil, they believe they've found the answer and will stop looking for the right answer.

 

For clarity's sake, let us break down "all soldiers are murderers." I don't know if Stef has said this. I don't think anybody could say it's absolutely true. Let's be honest though. Even if a given soldier is not murdering, they're lasing a target to be murdered, or watching a satellite to aide in the murder, fixing a machine that will aide those aiding the murderers, etc. While this might not make any given soldier a murderer, he is culpable just as the wheel man for a bank robbery is. Bottom line is that it is the initiation of the use of force and of the highest human order.

 

I sympathize. We were all fed the same lies from the same percentage of people we were told were to be trusted. The difference is that the lie I bought into was that nations and the psychopaths that claim ownership over them are worth fighting for while a soldier has bought into the lie that murder is okay because a stranger offered stolen money to do so. To be clear, in this consideration, there are three actors of importance: The soldier, the person whose commands the soldier is obeying, and the person who is effected by the soldier's actions. In the US, the commander in chief is not acquainted with 99.9% of the soldiers he commands. For argument's sake, this means that the commander and the soldier are strangers.

 

 

There's bad people out there (granted the vast majority of them are created and funded by some government or another) and I'd like to think that  I'm doing my little bit to keep them the heck away from the people I care about.

 

Saying there's bad people out there isn't justification for being one of the bad people out there. Why are the people you care about more important than the people who are victims of your (collective military) destruction, whom somebody cared about?

 

And as far as the whole 'Military people aren't big on negotiation' and the like that Stef's also repeated a few times...it's like this. I've found that treating people like human beings (in the Army or out) gets you *much* farther than just shouting at them. I always use 'please' and 'thank you' even when I'm talking to a subordinate.

 

Issuing a command with a "please" is not the same as negotiating.

 

I'll leave you with a parting thought. For me, the path of self-knowledge has been easier than anybody else I've heard talk about it. Do you know why? It's because I hurt people I cared about. Even after I was aware of this, I was powerless to stop it. I was desperate and was willing to do anything to stop hurting people I cared about. I even withdrew socially so as to not hurt any more people. As such, I cannot imagine how the hint of being party to genocide would not move somebody to at least consider that maybe all the vague rhetoric they were fed and in fact repeat was worthy of re-examination.

[Wuzzums]

I don't want to hurt anybody however I'm not so idealistic as to fool myself into thinking that it's all fluffy bunnies and happy puppies out there. There's bad people out there (granted the vast majority of them are created and funded by some government or another) and I'd like to think that  I'm doing my little bit to keep them the heck away from the people I care about.

 

Granted we cannot possibly predict the future, how can you justify defending through attack against someone that hasn't done you and your loved ones any harm yet?

 

 

And for the record I've never eaten a baby or anything like Stef implies that all military types do because we're all evil sociopaths.

 

I could post a gruesome picture of trucks hauling dead bodies of babies and children, courtesy of the US Military, but if I start googling that I'll be more passive aggressive towards you than I already am. Stop defending evil.

[Mike Fleming]

What is your opinion on the way that military people currently conduct themselves in regard to the wars the US is involved with?  Do they have a right to be there?  Should they be there?  Is it OK just to follow orders regardless?

 

You say you don't make the messes but Iraq and Afghanistan look like 2 military created messes to me.  I doubt they'd look as bad if you guys hadn't been involved.

[rvd1981]

I could post a gruesome picture of trucks hauling dead bodies of babies and children, courtesy of the US Military, but if I start googling that I'll be more passive aggressive towards you than I already am. Stop defending evil.

And I could find pictures of what the Taliban and Al-CIAda gets up to. Let's not pretend the US military is the only bad actor here, alright? So it's probably best that neither one of us go there. Harming innocents is wrong no matter who does it. And hey, guess what...this might come as a shock to you but I actually marched against the Iraq War. If the US government had attacked Syria I wouldn't have went. Why? Neither Iraq or Syria are threats to the US so we have no business intervening militarily.

[dsayers]

 

And I could find pictures of what the Taliban and Al-CIAda gets up to. Let's not pretend the US military is the only bad actor here, alright? So it's probably best that neither one of us go there. Harming innocents is wrong no matter who does it. And hey, guess what...this might come as a shock to you but I actually marched against the Iraq War. If the US government had attacked Syria I wouldn't have went. Why? Neither Iraq or Syria are threats to the US so we have no business intervening militarily.

 

I'm not sure what you aim to get from this thread.

 

I guess I've got my answer.

 

By the way, saying you have a choice and can identify a standard by which to exercise that choice upgrades you from culpable to responsible. In other words, you are not a victim of propaganda, but somebody who victimizes with propaganda. I doubt you'll find many minds open to that abuse here. Nationalism is a religion and therefor irrational. Proximity does not equal virtue. I tried to help you with this when I said:

 

I'll leave you with a parting thought. For me, the path of self-knowledge has been easier than anybody else I've heard talk about it. Do you know why? It's because I hurt people I cared about. Even after I was aware of this, I was powerless to stop it. I was desperate and was willing to do anything to stop hurting people I cared about. I even withdrew socially so as to not hurt any more people. As such, I cannot imagine how the hint of being party to genocide would not move somebody to at least consider that maybe all the vague rhetoric they were fed and in fact repeat was worthy of re-examination.

 

Somebody who isn't critical after it being suggested that they are party to genocide is a monster.

[Wuzzums]

And I could find pictures of what the Taliban and Al-CIAda gets up to. Let's not pretend the US military is the only bad actor here, alright? So it's probably best that neither one of us go there. Harming innocents is wrong no matter who does it. And hey, guess what...this might come as a shock to you but I actually marched against the Iraq War. If the US government had attacked Syria I wouldn't have went. Why? Neither Iraq or Syria are threats to the US so we have no business intervening militarily.

 

I wasn't pretending anything. I never said the US was the only bad actor, I assumed you're from the US by the way you speak so that's why I pointed a finger at US specifically.

1)You yourself said that harming innocents is wrong, therefore any military intervention is wrong by that standard. I fully support this too. Unless of course the military intervention happens in a desert somewhere far from civilization in a spot where both parties agreed to and with none of its combatants placed there by force, and all of its combatants guilty of a violent crime.

2)Then you say that neither Iraq or Syria are threats therefore no need to intervene militarily.

 

So with these two pieces of information you gave me I can only assume you think there's a need for military action against an actual threat, i.e. there's a need for harming innocents against a threat. I'm at a loss now. How would harming innocents, which by definition aren't part of the threat, stop said threat exactly?

 

I think I speak for everyone here when I say none of us think there's ever a need for "military intervention" (which is just a fancy schmancy wording for "attack" anyway).

[rvd1981]

So with these two pieces of information you gave me I can only assume you think there's a need for military action against an actual threat, i.e. there's a need for harming innocents against a threat. I'm at a loss now. How would harming innocents, which by definition aren't part of the threat, stop said threat exactly?

 

 

I think I speak for everyone here when I say none of us think there's ever a need for "military intervention" (which is just a fancy schmancy wording for "attack" anyway).

So...the use of force is never justified? So if say you were a Catholic living in France in the 40's you'd be totally cool with the Nazis invading? You wouldn't lift a finger to stop them even if though everybody pretty much knew what they were doing to the Jews? After all, the Fascists aren't a threat to you. Okay. Good to know. If there's ever trouble like that again you go on and twittle your thumbs and hope for the best. I got this, buddy.Also it's 'propaganda' that I have first hand information about the atrocities committed by the Taliban? These guys are pretty freakin' far from the noble freedom fighters resisting American imperialism some people seem to think they are. I find it really hard to empathize with people who come in to a village, round up the children and hang them because their relatives didn't want to go fight with the Taliban or strap on a suicide vest. I find it very hard to empathize with someone who thinks it's a good idea to set off a car bomb outside a school and blow up a bunch of little kids. If I end up getting deployed to Afghanistan I personally empathize a lot more with the civilians who'd really rather just go about their lives without having to put up with that. If I saw a guy setting up an IED in a marketplace would I use force to stop him? Yes. Why? He's going to kill a lot of people. The same as if I were stateside and saw some lunatic running around a shopping mall with a gun or an ax or whatever.  Also how am I not being critical of myself? Did I or did I not say in my first post "I am at best a necessary evil'? Believe me nobody'd be happier than me if everybody all decided at once we were all going to be cool and do everything voluntarily and everybody was going to put their guns down tomorrow. However I live in the real world. It's not going to happen any time soon and I guess I'm just really trying to do my little bit to control the damage until the state finally collapses then we can all jump up and go "Hey! Over here! Let's try this instead of all that nasty tangled mess that caused all the problems in the first place!"Or well would it be more morally acceptable if my pay stub said "XYZ Dispute Resolution Organization" on it rather than "Department of the Army"? I mean...at the end of the day I'd be doing about the same thing: showing up with a gun on behalf of some guy who pays me to use force against some other guy I likely don't even know. What's the difference there? I mean my boss has guys with guns in both situations. If a guy from the DRO knocks on your door and you know he has guys with guns who will as a last resort say kick in your front door, jam a rifle barrel in your neck and force you out of the house (or whatever the contract says it doesn't have to be rent or whatever) can you honestly tell me that you would not feel the least bit intimidated or coerced in any way?

[dsayers]

However I live in the real world.

 

"It's okay to murder because somebody offered me stolen money to do it" isn't the real world.

 

What's the difference there?

 

What's the difference between rape and love making? The violence.

 

I happen to provide armed security services for a living. The difference is that people pay me with money they've earned and ask me to do things they actually have the power to do themselves, and therefore can morally delegate to others as part of a voluntary exchange of goods and services.

 

Bunnies, puppies, blow children up... your use of vague language is all the proof anybody would need to understand you're just shoveling propaganda.

[rvd1981]

But...it's okay to murder people if somebody earned the money to pay you? Are you one hundred percent certain that whoever pays you are all saints? I mean if they've never ever done anything wrong ever then hey great. And I certainly hope you're not a PMC trying to lecture anyone on morality. If you think the military is bad those guys are even worse. If I did some of the things that some of those guys get away with while on deployment I'd have a long stay in Fort Leavenworth Federal Gravel Factory ahead of me.I can see that this isn't really going anywhere since anything I say is 'propaganda' and you're probably not going to listen to a word of my arguments because Army Bad and anybody associated with it is a horrible person. But let's have one more go at this, shall we?Peace is great. Nobody wants peace more than the people getting shot at on both sides. I don't know how often I have to repeat this until you'll actually listen to a word I'm saying but here goes one more time: I don't want to hurt anybody.Here's what I mean by 'I live in the real world'. There are these things that exist (as ideas and lines on a piece of paper) called countries. And these countries have things called governments. These governments are generally not at all good things because they mainly exist to steal money from people and do other bad things to people. They're powerful and don't seem to be going away any time soon. Hell, the government where I live has pretty much done away with just about anything resembling a private sector. There are really no jobs that pay close to anything you can live on that aren't government related in some way. So hey guess what? Rather than go on public assistance I chose to reenlist in the Army even though I know the government is generally pretty evil as a whole. Maybe some of the people involved are alright as individuals but you get the group of them together and...just ew. Pretty friggin' evil.Would it be more honorable to just go and try and sign up for welfare? Probably but oh guess what! I fall into that magic doughnut hole where I don't really make enough to live on but too much to qualify for aid. So I chose to work for a little bit of extra money to help me exist even if I don't agree at all with the system as a whole.It's kinda like say if you're in a concentration camp you don't have to like the camp or the guards but eating the food is alright because if you don't you'll starve to death. And every day you watch the Allied planes go overhead and listen to the guards whispering and you know that some day sooner or later you'll be free to help your fellow inmates rebuild. The point I'm trying to make is that there's people in the military who, believe it or not, are actually on our side. When you point at them and yell "Baby killer!" or "Murderer!" all you do is stir up all manner of defensiveness and drive them away. I know people who have pulled the trigger and they suffer for it every day. My grandfather fought in Europe during World War 2 and he still suffers from nightmares some seventy years later. A friend of mine suffers from PTSD due to a deployment to Afghanistan. They already feel guilt over what they've done so I guess all I really ask is think a little bit before you start throwing around loaded words like that. Try to understand what you're saying has on the people who hear it. Believe it or not I really do to the core of my being believe in liberty and freedom for everybody. I'm not a killbot. I'm not a fascist. I will defend anybody's right to do what they please as long as everyone's over the age of eighteen and nobody's getting hurt who doesn't want to be (hey there are some strange people out there that like getting hurt but whatever. None of my business). You all seem to disagree with me and hey you know what? That's great. I think it's fantastic. This right here is exactly the sort of thing that I'd be willing to fight for if necessary. If I received orders to do something I know to be wrong I would not comply. I have a legal and moral duty not to. Of course I think a friend of mine said it best: "If you disobey an illegal order you'll be punished but you'll be right." 

[Chris Harris]

I have had experience with the military myself (regrettably) and in my experience the people that inhabit that organization are sociopaths/psychopaths/corrupt. The cycle of abuse was very apparent to me, the people who don't have power are abused by those who do, then when those people who were abused get power they normalize the abuse and then perpetuate it onto others. I saw this and it cause me not to want to use power justly but to never have power at all.

 

This topic is something I have been wrestling with everyday since I left the military is that I was an accomplice to murder. The fact that you call yourself a necessary evil is worrying to me since there was nothing necessary about being in the military. I personally was feed bullshit that influenced my choice to join (this might be similar to you), then when I was in I saw the "true face" of the military and it nearly destroyed me. I, as you say, also didn't want to hurt anyone and when really saw that's all the military does (both internally and externally) I wanted to get out as soon as possible. The fact that you stayed in is also worrying to me since that means you were (at some level, consciously or unconsciously) ok with what the military was doing. It sounds to me like you are trying to rationalize your choice to be in the military without actually processing what your function in that organization was.

 

"If I received orders to do something I know to be wrong I would not comply."

I think the "order" to say in an organization that's facilitating the death of innocent people is something that has been shown to be wrong.

[dsayers]

@Mr. Harris: I thank you for sharing your experience. I appreciate you bringing a perspective to the table that I was not able to articulate myself even though I was making the case for exactly what you describe.

 

@rvd: "Baby killer" is unresolved trauma from your past. Here, if you're talking to me, you're talking about somebody that gave you the benefit of the doubt of being culpable until such a time you demonstrated that you're in fact responsible. For example:

 

the government where I live has pretty much done away with just about anything resembling a private sector. There are really no jobs that pay close to anything you can live on that aren't government related in some way. So hey guess what? Rather than go on public assistance I chose to reenlist in the Army even though I know the government is generally pretty evil as a whole. Maybe some of the people involved are alright as individuals but you get the group of them together and...just ew. Pretty friggin' evil.Would it be more honorable to just go and try and sign up for welfare? Probably but oh guess what! I fall into that magic doughnut hole where I don't really make enough to live on but too much to qualify for aid. So I chose to work for a little bit of extra money to help me exist even if I don't agree at all with the system as a whole.

 

You're aware that you're stealing from everybody, including those close to home, whom you care about, who you use as an excuse to act as an agent of evil. You're aware that you're taking mercenary money so as not to have to compete in the market. I guess you thought calling who pays me into question was supposed to distract from this.

[Chris Harris]

When you point at them and yell "Baby killer!" or "Murderer!" all you do is stir up all manner of defensiveness and drive them away.

 

I guess all I really ask is think a little bit before you start throwing around loaded words like that. Try to understand what you're saying has on the people who hear it.

Who's throwing out loaded words? Not one person here has said anything like that though you are the one to bring it up and say it. It has been said that people in the military are either murderers or accomplices to murder, which can be demonstrated so they are not "loaded" since they accurately describe the situation.

[rvd1981]

@ dsayers: I thought the bulk of the argument here revolved around 'violence is bad'. If that's the case who are you to look down your nose at me? You take money to do violence to people. The only real difference is the name is who signs the check. And if you're not a PMC I apologize for any offence I might have caused you. If you are...you know what they say about glass houses and stones, right? So...okay...let me be clear: there really isn't a 'market' around where I live. Due to the obscenely high tax rate (seriously, a full third of my pretty meager paycheck is taken away by taxes) nobody has any money. Hell, they even take taxes out of my drill pay...which means I'm partly either paying myself or showing up for free for a third of the time. Any decent paying employer has fled the area ages ago leaving basically minimum wage fast food jobs, off the books work or getting a job with the government if you're not on unemployment. I am lucky enough to have a full time job along with my Army stuff along with what little cash I get every month from my books. I work 12-14 hour days five to six days a week and I can't even afford the gas to out of state let alone start over in a new city. So pardon me for trying to you know...live because the tax farmers in my particular geographical area have raised the fences and cranked up the voltage before I could make a run for it.

Ideals are great but don't mean much if you've got an empty stomach. Since I can see that everybody here seems more interested in condemning me as an evil murderer than actually listening to anything I have to say I don't really see much point in trying to discuss this much further. 

[dsayers]

I don't know where the I take money to do violence to people comes from. I didn't hold any mirrors up. Private security is about acting as an agent of the owner in the owner's absence. It's no different from defending your own house from a home invasion because it's your house. That's not violence.

 

IF I looked down my nose at you it would be because of your "I support immorality of the highest human order in order to eat in a world where almost everybody finds moral ways to provide for themselves."

 

Ideals are great but don't mean much if you've got an empty stomach.

 

You are worse than having no moral compass because you're trying to trick me into thinking that your decisions are moral and necessary. You have the ability to choose and a standard by which to choose and intentionally choose immorality.

[Wuzzums]

So with these two pieces of information you gave me I can only assume you think there's a need for military action against an actual threat, i.e. there's a need for harming innocents against a threat. I'm at a loss now. How would harming innocents, which by definition aren't part of the threat, stop said threat exactly?

 

 

I think I speak for everyone here when I say none of us think there's ever a need for "military intervention" (which is just a fancy schmancy wording for "attack" anyway).

So...the use of force is never justified? So if say you were a Catholic living in France in the 40's you'd be totally cool with the Nazis invading? You wouldn't lift a finger to stop them even if though everybody pretty much knew what they were doing to the Jews? After all, the Fascists aren't a threat to you. Okay. Good to know. If there's ever trouble like that again you go on and twittle your thumbs and hope for the best. I got this, buddy.Also it's 'propaganda' that I have first hand information about the atrocities committed by the Taliban? These guys are pretty freakin' far from the noble freedom fighters resisting American imperialism some people seem to think they are.

I stopped reading after these two strawman arguments. Force is justified in self defense, we weren't talking about self defense. We were talking about "attack". Your nazi analogy is quite ironic seeing how your US Military is the invading nazi force and the defending Catholics are the talibn, but whatever. And I like your heavy undertone at how the nazis had to be stopped because of the holocaust. Mate, people found out about what they did AFTER the war. A lot of people died trying to get the word out, a nazi officer was never heard from again after he tried to get the Pope to tell the rest of the world about the atrocities. And if you were a civilian in Europe and your village got invaded, you were probably praying really hard for it to be a nazi invasion, russians were far, far worse. I heard first hand stories about villagers welcoming nazis, because they would protect them from the crazy russians. So no, your automatic-like appeal to emotion argument is far from the truth.

 

I would also love for you to point out a person here or anywhere else that said the taliban are noble freedom fighters. I myself hate all military organizations equally. I'll repeat myself just to be clear, what I said here applies to all sides equally because there's no tangible difference between them. Assholes with guns and schoolboy mentalities trying to rule the playground.

 

 

Now I don't know you, I don't know what you did, and I don't know what your intentions were, but empathize with me here a little. Imagine what it's like for me, or us, when you hold your troops at high regard. Imagine some guy you don't know about coming to you to explain how great the taliban forces are and he knows because he's one of them. How he's a necessary evil. How he doesn't make the mess, he just cleans it up. How he doesn't want to hurt people but he has to because the world is not full of fluffy bunnies and happy puppies. How he's moral in his actions because he'll do whatever it takes for the bad people not to get to his family. How would you react to such a man? Would you go "oh, I didn't see it that way, fuck yeah, taliban forces!" ?