MattGrimes Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 So, just to preface, I found FDR back in September and have been listening to about 8 hours a day since then. I just got to volume 4 this week, have read On Truth, and am half way through RTR. So I have a LOT of theory. However it wasn't until the last few weeks that I really started applying it well. I of course have been applying here and there—not against it or anything, just kind of figuring out what fits for me and what not—but it has been in probably the past month (after I called in on 2576; first caller, I think, if you're interested) that I've really been taking the bull by the horns. Since then I have been working really hard on applying RTR to my friend relationships which I think may be able to handle it and have removed those who can't or whose company I find no benefit it. I am absolutely going to De-foo ASAP but I am currently financially dependent so it's not possible right now (to my utter dismay) A week ago, I started talking to a girl (who will be known as M) who I've known kind of through a mutual friend (who I don't really associate with much anymore). She would sometimes message me on facebook when she was bored, but the last week seemed more interested than usual. I have really been interested in making new, healthier friendships (and revamping old ones, if possible) in the past few weeks, and so one day I just asked her why she seemed interested in talking to me. I can't remember exactly what she said, but basically it was along the lines of that she respected me and was interested in the things I posted (economics, psychology, science, philosophy, bitcoin, parenting, state violence, etc), and that she finds truth, and self growth, and the state of the world very important, and that none of her friends care about that stuff, and thus was interested in us becoming friends. I was very skeptical, as about a year ago a girl said a similar thing to me, but later it became apparent that she just wanted me to fix her and such. I told M, that I was skeptical (RTR!) , and she said she understood. I basically interrogated her with Socratic questioning about pretty deep issues, and she was very open to it, though skeptical. Of course as I am total novice at applying this stuff, I didn't handle it perfectly, but I did a pretty decent job I think. She seemed, and still seems, far different than anyone I've ever met; she seems as ready for FDR as I was when I found it. We talked over facebook a lot (at least a few hours of talking) for a day or two, pretty in depth conversations for someone you just met, but it was the most interesting and stimulating conversation I had had in a pretty long time, though at this point it was still mostly me questioning her and not saying too much about myself—My method of keeping the upper hand in the relationship (kind of unhealthy), finding if others are 'worthy' of philosophy and my time (healthy). After about two days we decided to hang out. I picked her up, we got food, went to the beach and just talked for literally like 8 hours. I presented a lot of ideas behind FDR, as curiously and as innocently as possible, though at first I definitely had to some degree of my usual fix-other-people-ness, but much less than ever before. I was 100% honest, including about my infliction by my mother to erase myself and put others before me, and very open, and she seemed to be the same. When I felt something, I would say so. The only thing I did not yet mention was my pondering of my interest in a potential relationship with her because we'd known eachother for only a few days, but something that crossed my mind as soon as we first talked. We talked about our childhoods a lot, and laughed, hobbies, and just everything. We texted pretty constantly for the next two days, and generally when I felt something, I would tell her—something I've never had in any relationship or friendship before. The biggest one being that I felt anxious about our FDR-esque conversation and that I was concerned I was moving to fast in regards to life-changing material (which I still think I may have jumped the gun on dropping the philosophy bomb on her, but she seems to be handling it really well). I explained that seeing as the cat was already out of the bag that I might as well present a core component—"hypothetically, if it were the case, not that it is but if it were the case, that most everyone in your life was corrupt, would you be open to removing corrupt people if it meant the only way to true happiness?". She was very open and curious and interested and to the best of my knowledge was totally honest in return (explaining that while it would be hard, if it meant true happiness, that she would do it). Frequently we would remark on the weirdness of the connection we had and how it felt that we had known eachother for way longer than a few days, as we had both had deeper conversations with one another than anyone else in the past. Again we hang out (2 days from the last time), for about six hours at the beach again. Similar conversations, very open, and honest. Here is where one of my major issues starts to arise—us as a relationship. It started to bother me a lot the night before, most importantly because she just got out of a 2 year relationship 2 months ago (which we talked a fair amount about in the original facebook chat, via text, and on the first hanging-out-session). I, as awkwardly as humanly possible, explained that I had been thinking about us as a relationship, and wanted her take on it. We were on the same page: that we weren't particularly against it, though it was not in any way our primary intention of the friendship, nor did we particularly think it was necessarily a proper time for something like that—me going through a lot of major changes, and her just getting out of a relationship. We decided to just accept the weirdness of whatever it was that this was—and that it neither fit the box of friendship or relationship-relationship—and to reconvene on it at a later time. In regards to her previous relationship, she says that it was hardly a relationship. They both just were more of friends (though they never talked about anything important; just hung out) who had sex, and that they never really told eachother they loved one another or anything and that she inevitably broke up with him after realizing the relationship was just destructive to both of them. However I still felt uneasy, as generally I follow the rule of being single for at least half as long as you were in a relationship. Today, 2 days later, we hung out again, after frequent texting, for 9 hours. It was a much more relaxed hang out, at least in regards to the ratio, with a higher percentage of laughing and jokes, however we did talk a lot about me and my depression (which is weird, and new and I was pretty uncomfortable, which is good though), and also her affliction for punctuality and how it came from her mother. Also for the first time in my life i actually wanted to talk about myself, which I mentioned to her, and was really interesting. We first went out to get food, then hung out on my couch and balcony, then, since it was late, migrated to my room and sat, fairly far away, in my bed, and talked. We constantly remarked on the weirdness of the situation, and how it had only been a week since we'd known eachother and already we feel so comfortable as friends, and also how weird it was that we were just sitting in my bed. Not that it felt weird but that it seemed like it was a weird situation looking in from the outside. Over the course of a few hours we slowly moved a little closer, and then laying under the covers (separate blankets), getting more and more comfortable. At the end of the night, I once again brought up my concern regarding the ambiguity of the kind of relationship it was and that I could not fit it into a box,trying to figure out how to address it. This was brought on by a recurrent desire to hold her hand or kiss her over the course of a few hours, which I felt was inappropriate due to the unusual status of her past relationship. I did not bring this up as I already felt like the situation was weird enough, and I feared that if I did mention that I wanted to make a move, that she would be okay with it and it would happen—which I am unsure of is a good idea, though not a bad enough idea that I would have stopped myself from doing it had I been honest (though I will probably tell her next time, depending on your guys' feed back). The night ended on the note that she should put some thought into her relationship with her ex and that that would be the big topic for our next talk. What do you guys think? I have this concern that this is such a weird relationship, but it seems to be true intimacy and not some kind of fusion. Am I supposed to be this brutally honest? I recall Stef mentioning that it was a few months before he presented a lot of the more radical stuff to Christina; while I started doing it within an hour. It feels so right but also so unusual. Both of us acknowledge that life is short and we don't want to waste time messing around with people who are not worth having in our lives. My biggest issue is regarding her past relationship and how to go about that. If she had been single for like 6 months to a year, i think, while the relationship would be unusual, all the other hurdles would be easy to overcome. At this point I contemplating that A. we either just date B. We become JUST friends C. We stop talking altogether (something both of us are very against, but it's not off the table) or D. Just sit in the weirdness until we find an answer. Any and all input would be awesome!
ribuck Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 What do you guys think? I think you are a lucky guy! Don't be too hung up on a mathematical model of "time between relationships equals half of length of relationship".
MattGrimes Posted January 28, 2014 Author Posted January 28, 2014 I think you are a lucky guy! Don't be too hung up on a mathematical model of "time between relationships equals half of length of relationship". Ribuck, I really appreciate you taking the time to read my post and provide feedback. Your comment has caused relief in me, though if you could give me a little more meat (ie why shouldn't I be hung up on her past relationship? Can I be certain that it's a non issue? Any ideas on what I could propose or ask to help me get a better understanding of this? etc) that would be awesome.
Wuzzums Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 I'm gonna rain on your parade a little and underline that it's only been a week. That's not nearly enough time to know someone let alone be concerned about what route the relationship should take. My theory is that you feel it's a weird honest relationship only because you two are still basically strangers. It's far easier to open up to stranger than a long time acquaintance, and opening up to a stranger that's expressing genuine curiosity is probably easier than breathing. I'm assuming you reciprocated the curiosity and if not I highly suggest you do. It's quite a pleasurable experience as you know so enjoy it as it goes. Don't constrain what you two have to some predetermined path, see where it takes you both and learn from the experience. Oh, and for the love of Zeus, ask her out on a date! You pointed out you have some mixed feelings about what the relationship was and asking for a date is the quickest easiest way to finding out the answer to that conundrum that I know of.
tasmlab Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 I'm just scanning your post seeing all of the HOURS of talking in the first week. Looks awesome! Stuff about relationship two years/two months ago, etc. Who cares? The potentially good ones don't come at neatly calculated time intervals from central planning. Go with it!
dsayers Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 What does "philosophy bomb" and "brutally honest" mean? I'm not criticizing as I find myself speaking in old, nonsensical ways such as this at times too. I mention this because it could be that your need to label the relationship is also a vestige of your old propagandized life. Don't get me wrong: Labeling the relationship and knowing where you (plural) stand can be an important thing. Just not after a week. Not trying to use random, external timelines. Just in the time frame you're talking about, you're not even out of the realm of possibility of you seeing what you want to see or her just providing lip service. For example, you shared a level of yourself that needs to be earned right away. Have you talked about this with her and explored why this is and the damage it could possibly do to you both? Even if "damage" just means vulnerability that would aid to acceptance being interpreted as something more than it actually is. A lot of people do this and I was certainly no exception. Enough with the doom and gloom. I'm very happy for you! Even just having a friend you can discuss your feelings with in the moment can be a very powerful and edifying experience. Since it is new, try not to let the fact that you (plural) are genders the other is attracted to distract you. Being emotionally and mentally intimate with somebody can be a physical turn on. However, if you don't let the relationship show its staying power, you'll never know if it's real or just based on sex. If this were just somebody you were connecting with for a physical release, it might be different. But it sounds like you may have a keeper, so I wouldn't ruin it by accelerating it. This is just an outsider's view, so take it for what it is. I did want to add that as I read the first part, I was concerned that you were just talking about her, but then later you were talking about you too. My parting thought is that the story is told a lot from your perspective, but not much was said about how inquisitive she is or how much effort she makes (beyond the initial FB effort). This can be a useful guide for differentiating between her having a fascination with some guy that wears his heart on his sleeve in a world of reserved phonies and her actually seeking the company of somebody who is rational and virtuous. I hope this makes sense.
Lians Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Hey Matt, As you know, we're all about empirical evidence around here. Let's see what you've got: She would sometimes message me on facebook when she was bored, but the last week seemed more interested than usual. Why the sudden interest? Why did she talk to you only when she was bored? I told M, that I was skeptical (RTR!) , and she said she understood. I basically interrogated her with Socratic questioning about pretty deep issues, and she was very open to it, though skeptical. Of course as I am total novice at applying this stuff, I didn't handle it perfectly, but I did a pretty decent job I think. She seemed, and still seems, far different than anyone I've ever met; she seems as ready for FDR as I was when I found it. We talked over facebook a lot (at least a few hours of talking) for a day or two, pretty in depth conversations for someone you just met, but it was the most interesting and stimulating conversation I had had in a pretty long time, though at this point it was still mostly me questioning her and not saying too much about myself—My method of keeping the upper hand in the relationship (kind of unhealthy), finding if others are 'worthy' of philosophy and my time (healthy). I'm not a woman (FDR ladies, feel free to chime in), but I'd never consider a relationship with anyone who treated me like that without my explicit permission. Also, scepticism isn't a feeling. Here is where one of my major issues starts to arise—us as a relationship. It started to bother me a lot the night before, most importantly because she just got out of a 2 year relationship 2 months ago (which we talked a fair amount about in the original facebook chat, via text, and on the first hanging-out-session). I, as awkwardly as humanly possible, explained that I had been thinking about us as a relationship, and wanted her take on it. We were on the same page: that we weren't particularly against it, though it was not in any way our primary intention of the friendship, nor did we particularly think it was necessarily a proper time for something like that—me going through a lot of major changes, and her just getting out of a relationship. We decided to just accept the weirdness of whatever it was that this was—and that it neither fit the box of friendship or relationship-relationship—and to reconvene on it at a later time. In regards to her previous relationship, she says that it was hardly a relationship. They both just were more of friends (though they never talked about anything important; just hung out) who had sex, and that they never really told eachother they loved one another or anything and that she inevitably broke up with him after realizing the relationship was just destructive to both of them. However I still felt uneasy, as generally I follow the rule of being single for at least half as long as you were in a relationship. I don't think I need to point out the dysfunction in her previous relationship. In your conversation with Stef, he told you how long it takes to process a dysfunctional history. We're talking years here, not two months. Unprocessed dysfunction often turns into a repeating pattern in one's life. Sadly, that seems to be the case here as well. You see, she just got out of an ambiguous relationship with a fellow who was neither her friend nor her boyfriend. "We decided to just accept the weirdness of whatever it was that this was—and that it neither fit the box of friendship or relationship-relationship—and to reconvene on it at a later time." Do you see the pattern here? I'll also prompt you to reconsider your usage of the word weird because it doesn't say anything about your situation. People usually mask their discomfort with it. We first went out to get food, then hung out on my couch and balcony, then, since it was late, migrated to my room and sat, fairly far away, in my bed, and talked. We constantly remarked on the weirdness of the situation, and how it had only been a week since we'd known eachother and already we feel so comfortable as friends, and also how weird it was that we were just sitting in my bed. Not that it felt weird but that it seemed like it was a weird situation looking in from the outside. Over the course of a few hours we slowly moved a little closer, and then laying under the covers (separate blankets), getting more and more comfortable. You ended up in the same bed after a week of what could hardly be considered dating. The sexual undertone is quite clear. Call me a prude, but bringing up sex that early in a (non-)relationship may be a sign of an inability to communicate in a healthy manner. I obviously can't tell you what to do, but you may end up in trouble if you move past these warning signs without acknowledging them.
ribuck Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Ribuck ... why shouldn't I be hung up on her past relationship? Can I be certain that it's a non issue? No, you certainly can't be certain that her past relationship is a non-issue. But that's no reason to be "hung up" about it, or to resist exploring the possibilities. She has already said that her previous relationship will be the topic of your next big talk, so it seems that everything will come out into the open. And you two are making each other laugh. In my experience, couples who make each other laugh a lot have the most rewarding and enduring relationships.
MattGrimes Posted January 28, 2014 Author Posted January 28, 2014 I'm gonna rain on your parade a little and underline that it's only been a week. That's not nearly enough time to know someone let alone be concerned about what route the relationship should take. My theory is that you feel it's a weird honest relationship only because you two are still basically strangers. It's far easier to open up to stranger than a long time acquaintance, and opening up to a stranger that's expressing genuine curiosity is probably easier than breathing. I'm assuming you reciprocated the curiosity and if not I highly suggest you do. It's quite a pleasurable experience as you know so enjoy it as it goes. Don't constrain what you two have to some predetermined path, see where it takes you both and learn from the experience. Oh, and for the love of Zeus, ask her out on a date! You pointed out you have some mixed feelings about what the relationship was and asking for a date is the quickest easiest way to finding out the answer to that conundrum that I know of. Hey no worries; I came here to get some perspective. Well my issue is that while timeline wise it's very short but it's pretty condensed. We've hung out for like 24 total hours and have at least another 8+ talking on other mediums. 36 hours is equivalent like 9 dates (I think... I've never really asked a girl out of a date before). And i'm not exactly saying that it needs to be a relationship or a friendship and that needs to be decided now, but it is anxiety causing that i don't even know if a future relationship is off-limits. Also, is it healthy to mention this anxiety? It seems like a weird feeling to have with someone so early on (though to my knowledge it is a mutual feeling); but I also want to be honest. Every previous relationship I've had basically started out with us hooking up because we were physically attracted to eachother, getting to know eachother after having sex, and then kind of figuring out whether we actually liked eachother. Of course that is terribly unhealthy, and I didn't want that to occur in future relationships, but just the fact that I didn't kiss her on the first night put this in a different category than all my others. And you could be right, but it doesn't feel that way. I am a very very guarded person. I have always kept everything to myself, and use sarcasm and jokes, and sometimes even more volatile methods (hostility and meanness) to keep people at arms length for many years. I am not at all the kind of person who will just open up and say how I feel to anyone, or even people who I am fairly close with. It is definitely the case that it's kind of 'fuck it, this is me, if you have a problem with it, don't continue talking to me', but if I was highly concerned that this girl was a scumbag who would use this information against me, I definitley would not have done it (though, even though It seems like she would never ever do that, I am concerned at having given her that power over me, something I have not really done in the past as people have always abused it). The fact that it is a new relationship does make it easier to be honest, but that in itself is far from what I require to speak to freely about myself. In regards to a date: I've never really done that. However what we've been doing have kind of been dates? I don't know if it's my generation or just the people I know or just me, but dates—as in 'hey let's go on a date'—aren't really a thing. I felt more comfortable just bringing the topic up to discuss than trying to figure out how to have a date ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Oh and yes, I have been exceptionally curious. I always am. But usually I am always just interrogating (nicely) other people in my life and never revealing anything about myself. She is the first person I've felt comfortable talking about myself, to the degree where I not only want I okay with it but actually wanted to do it (which is weird).
dsayers Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 is it healthy to mention this anxiety? Is it healthy to be honest? Absolutely. The only downside here would be if she (like some people) think "anxiety attack" when they think anxiety. Society in general is so dishonest even with itself about emotions and honesty that they mistake anxiety as some form of mental problem. If the girl understands that anxiety is normal and you are just being honest with her, it's something you might be able to explore together. Is she honest with you about her anxieties?
MattGrimes Posted January 28, 2014 Author Posted January 28, 2014 What does "philosophy bomb" and "brutally honest" mean? Enough with the doom and gloom. I'm very happy for you! Even just having a friend you can discuss your feelings with in the moment can be a very powerful and edifying experience. Since it is new, try not to let the fact that you (plural) are genders the other is attracted to distract you. Being emotionally and mentally intimate with somebody can be a physical turn on. However, if you don't let the relationship show its staying power, you'll never know if it's real or just based on sex. If this were just somebody you were connecting with for a physical release, it might be different. But it sounds like you may have a keeper, so I wouldn't ruin it by accelerating it. This is just an outsider's view, so take it for what it is. I did want to add that as I read the first part, I was concerned that you were just talking about her, but then later you were talking about you too. My parting thought is that the story is told a lot from your perspective, but not much was said about how inquisitive she is or how much effort she makes (beyond the initial FB effort). This can be a useful guide for differentiating between her having a fascination with some guy that wears his heart on his sleeve in a world of reserved phonies and her actually seeking the company of somebody who is rational and virtuous. I hope this makes sense. Philosophy bomb is basically FDR. Talking about childhood and how child hood created your dysfunctions, and why we hang out with people we do and whether those people are corrupt or whether they care about us or are just using us to manage their emotions (and we to them), etc. Brutally honest I guess sounds concerning to those who have always been pretty honest, but basically just RTR as I understand it. When I feel something I say something. when she asks a question I do my best to answer with complete truth. When sometimes is causing me anxiety, I bring it up. etc. I'm not criticizing as I find myself speaking in old, nonsensical ways such as this at times too. I mention this because it could be that your need to label the relationship is also a vestige of your old propagandized life. Don't get me wrong: Labeling the relationship and knowing where you (plural) stand can be an important thing. Just not after a week. Not trying to use random, external timelines. Just in the time frame you're talking about, you're not even out of the realm of possibility of you seeing what you want to see or her just providing lip service. For example, you shared a level of yourself that needs to be earned right away. Have you talked about this with her and explored why this is and the damage it could possibly do to you both? Even if "damage" just means vulnerability that would aid to acceptance being interpreted as something more than it actually is. A lot of people do this and I was certainly no exception. That is my concern. I am concerned about why i'm so concerned about putting this is a box. I am definitely used to doing that (putting relationships in a box immediately)—every other relationship I've had started off as 'I like you let's have sex' basically, and then it went from there. I've never dated a girl who was ever in a limbo of 'should we be friends or partners?'; it was always either A. let's bang or B. bye. Just the fact that after 8 hours talking to hour I didn't make a move, nor even feel a desire to do so, was unusual for me. Of course I know that's terribly unhealthy for relationships (to have sex before you know the person), and I don't want to do that with her. I want to get to know her and be her friend, but I also want to be honest and my brain is highly concerned about this relationship stuff now, so I brought it up. Just for clarity's sake, I interrogated her for at least 6-8 hours of talking before I started to reveal anything significant about myself. I am very aware of how dangerous vulnerability is (correct me if i'm wrong if that's not what you mean when you say 'and the damage it could possibly do to you both'). As said in the above response, I am generally debilitating-ly closed-off; not telling anyone about how I feel or what I think (however I have been opening up in the past few weeks to those I think may deserve it). If this girl had not proven herself to be more honest and curious than anyone I have met, I would not have revealed these things to her. Enough with the doom and gloom. I'm very happy for you! Even just having a friend you can discuss your feelings with in the moment can be a very powerful and edifying experience. Since it is new, try not to let the fact that you (plural) are genders the other is attracted to distract you. Being emotionally and mentally intimate with somebody can be a physical turn on. However, if you don't let the relationship show its staying power, you'll never know if it's real or just based on sex. If this were just somebody you were connecting with for a physical release, it might be different. But it sounds like you may have a keeper, so I wouldn't ruin it by accelerating it. Okay so this is my dilemma. How do I know when it is right to move steps (let's leave her past relationship out of the equation for now as that will have to be resolved first)? As I said above, every relationship I've had in the past was centered around sex and I never go to know them before that. Of course I see where that leads and I don't want to that to happen here. Am I right in mentioning my concerns about this to her when I feel them or should I just shut up and let things work themselves out and go wherever they go? This is just an outsider's view, so take it for what it is. I did want to add that as I read the first part, I was concerned that you were just talking about her, but then later you were talking about you too. My parting thought is that the story is told a lot from your perspective, but not much was said about how inquisitive she is or how much effort she makes (beyond the initial FB effort). This can be a useful guide for differentiating between her having a fascination with some guy that wears his heart on his sleeve in a world of reserved phonies and her actually seeking the company of somebody who is rational and virtuous. I hope this makes sense. Hey man I thoroughly appreciate it. She is quite inquisitive, though she is obviously quite new to these kinds of conversations as well (so isn't experienced in Socratic questioning or anything). I don't want to bust her balls or anything, so I'm just letting her kind of work her way up to the level of radical curiosity that I, and FDR, embrace. I don't think it's just a fascination—that was how the last girl was and that became apparent pretty quick. But you could be right. Of course, life is short, so might as well find out sooner rather than later.
dsayers Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Philosophy bomb is basically FDR. Talking about childhood and how child hood created your dysfunctions, and why we hang out with people we do and whether those people are corrupt or whether they care about us or are just using us to manage their emotions (and we to them), etc. Brutally honest I guess sounds concerning to those who have always been pretty honest, but basically just RTR as I understand it. When I feel something I say something. when she asks a question I do my best to answer with complete truth. When sometimes is causing me anxiety, I bring it up. etc. This sounds like philosophy. And honesty. Bombs are very destructive. Brutality is raw aggression. Phrases such as "philosophy bomb" and "brutal honesty" are designed to discourage people from being philosophical and honest to aide in their own subjugation. We should take care not to perpetuate these bad habits. Am I right in mentioning my concerns about this to her when I feel them or should I just shut up and let things work themselves out and go wherever they go? I don't know. I think there's such a thing as age-appropriate. If the relationship is just getting started, she might not be thinking about a physical aspect at all. Or if she is, then perhaps it wouldn't be something to pursue anyways. So if the relationship isn't established enough, to bring up that subject in a personal context might be off-putting. Then again, if she's into honesty, maybe she'll appreciate the honesty. I'm sure she was aware as a young teen that men were attracted to developed females and/or that they have physical desires. I don't think you have to tell her that you would enjoy having a go for her to know it. Maybe you could talk about it in a way that isn't personal to her. Let her know that as a result of the things you've learned, your values have changed. That in the past, you took things physically way too fast and now you view that as a mistake that you don't wish to make again.
MattGrimes Posted January 28, 2014 Author Posted January 28, 2014 Hey Matt, As you know, we're all about empirical evidence around here. Let's see what you've got: Hey Lians! Why the sudden interest? Why did she talk to you only when she was bored? Well that's a good question. To my knowledge, when she was bored on lunch at work or just had 15 minutes to kill she would just facebook chat people. I guess I'm a funny guy so I was good for a few minutes of entertaining. I'm not a woman (FDR ladies, feel free to chime in), but I'd never consider a relationship with anyone who treated me like that without my explicit permission. Also, scepticism isn't a feeling. Of course. That's why I want to probe her relationship and why she was in it a little more. I don't want to make excuses for her, but to my understanding, and from my own experience of similar things, it kind of a 'this is the best there is out there. All my friends are drunk and lame, and the best I can expect is someone who will just hang out with me and shoot the shit who I don't hate'. In the circle of people that we come from, the idea that you could have a relationship where you are honest about things is like looking for a unicorn—we didn't even know it was possible. As I mentioned though, I do plan to probe it a little more. In regards to skepticism, haha yes I know it's not a feeling. I meant that I expressed to her how I was concerned about her motives, and explained what happened with the last person who preached similar lines. I don't think I need to point out the dysfunction in her previous relationship. In your conversation with Stef, he told you how long it takes to process a dysfunctional history. We're talking years here, not two months. Unprocessed dysfunction often turns into a repeating pattern in one's life. Sadly, that seems to be the case here as well. You see, she just got out of an ambiguous relationship with a fellow who was neither her friend nor her boyfriend. "We decided to just accept the weirdness of whatever it was that this was—and that it neither fit the box of friendship or relationship-relationship—and to reconvene on it at a later time." Do you see the pattern here? I'll also prompt you to reconsider your usage of the word weird because it doesn't say anything about your situation. People usually mask their discomfort with it. Yeah I am very aware of the deep rooted nature of dysfunction, hence my concern. You posit a very interesting theory in regarding to the ambiguity. I will have to think about it. However my initial thoughts are that it may be a false association. We are both concerned about resolving ambiguity and getting to the root of things, and most of the confusion arises from the fact that we just met yet have what seems to be quite a strong friendship (but also the degree to which we talk makes it seem like it doesn't fit in the friendship box; and of course that we are attracted to one another throws another wrench it there). Either way, I will think about this pattern you have presented, and posit it to her. You ended up in the same bed after a week of what could hardly be considered dating. The sexual undertone is quite clear. Call me a prude, but bringing up sex that early in a (non-)relationship may be a sign of an inability to communicate in a healthy manner. I definitely understand your concern, though I'm not sure it is warranted (I'll explain a little more and you can tell me what you think). We generally hang out at night—both night owls with later schedules—so last night we hung out from like 9 PM to 6 AM. We went for food and whatever, and then decided to go my house to eat it (as driving to the beach again and sitting on rocks just didn't seem as appealing). We hung out til probably 12 on the couch and balcony, but my room mate was sleeping and the neighbors could hear us on the balcony, so we moved to my room. I have no furniture in my room so the bed is the only place to sit. We were sitting up, entirely platonic for the first hour or so, but as time went on we kind of slouched down, I then put a blanket over my legs, then she put a blanket over hers, and by the end of the night (it was also like 5 am so we were tired) we were laying, and were somewhat closer physically (IIRC mostly my doing). As mentioned in previous responses, for me, just the fact that we've gone this long without sex is a new experience for me. In the past all my relationships were basically put in the A. relationship or B. Meh I don't like you. Box pretty quick. I've never had a friend who then became a relationship. I of course see the dysfunction in starting a physical relationship so soon, and thus don't want to do that, and the desire for it has definitely taken 5+ times longer than it usually does, but now it is here and i don't know how to go about it. And I haven't mentioned sex or anything—I'm not particularly interested in that (which is unusual for me)—but I did mention the idea of a relationship, and that it had been a thought in my mind and that I wanted to explore her perspective and my perspective and such. Is this unhealthy? I am very new to RTR so I didn't know if stuff like that you're supposed to not talk about yet or what. thoughts? I obviously can't tell you what to do, but you may end up in trouble if you move past these warning signs without acknowledging them. Appreciated, Comrade. I can always count on your to bust my balls haha
Wuzzums Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 In regards to a date: I've never really done that. However what we've been doing have kind of been dates? I don't know if it's my generation or just the people I know or just me, but dates—as in 'hey let's go on a date'—aren't really a thing. I felt more comfortable just bringing the topic up to discuss than trying to figure out how to have a date ¯_(ツ)_/¯ I still don't think they're dates because you don't know what her view of you is. Asking someone to go out translates to "I'm interested, are you interested too?" If she says no, it's a pretty clear answer that no romantic relationship can come of it. You could probably still be friends, though. I could go on more but I don't wanna be too prophetic, such experiences are better lived first hand, of course. You've got all your FDR tools so don't worry too much, your safest bet is to trust your instincts.
MattGrimes Posted January 29, 2014 Author Posted January 29, 2014 Is it healthy to be honest? Absolutely. The only downside here would be if she (like some people) think "anxiety attack" when they think anxiety. Society in general is so dishonest even with itself about emotions and honesty that they mistake anxiety as some form of mental problem. If the girl understands that anxiety is normal and you are just being honest with her, it's something you might be able to explore together. Is she honest with you about her anxieties? Yeah she is majoring in psych (new to it, but knows some) so she is not ignorant about that stuff. The kind of conversations we have she explicitly stated she has never had before. Up until us talking, the idea that you should tell people how you feel was not a thought that you really considered. So I think she is just learning to feel comfortable with first knowing what she feels and then saying it. However, anytime I ask her "how do you feel about this", she is very open and does her best to interpret her emotions and express them to me. This sounds like philosophy. And honesty. Bombs are very destructive. Brutality is raw aggression. Phrases such as "philosophy bomb" and "brutal honesty" are designed to discourage people from being philosophical and honest to aide in their own subjugation. We should take care not to perpetuate these bad habits. Well philosophy and honesty can be very destructive, just only to falsehood. In the empire of falsehood that is modern society though, I felt these words were not entirely inappropriate, especially when talking with people who are new (I think it's important, to explain that philosophy is radioactive and can really mess up your life, though if you stick with it it will make something better than you ever could have imagined). I catch your meaning though. I will avoid using these. I don't know. I think there's such a thing as age-appropriate. If the relationship is just getting started, she might not be thinking about a physical aspect at all. Or if she is, then perhaps it wouldn't be something to pursue anyways. So if the relationship isn't established enough, to bring up that subject in a personal context might be off-putting. Then again, if she's into honesty, maybe she'll appreciate the honesty. I'm sure she was aware as a young teen that men were attracted to developed females and/or that they have physical desires. I don't think you have to tell her that you would enjoy having a go for her to know it. hahaha no I'm sure that she is aware that men want to bed her. However that's not really what I am interesting in exactly; I just had a desire to make a move in regards to physical affection. And FWIW I am 22 and she is 21. I'm sure sex has crossed her mind, though she doesn't seem particularly concerned about it (nor am I... which is unusual). Maybe you could talk about it in a way that isn't personal to her. Let her know that as a result of the things you've learned, your values have changed. That in the past, you took things physically way too fast and now you view that as a mistake that you don't wish to make again. this is very good. thanks. Sorry to anyone else responding, got to go to class, I'll be back for more later.
dsayers Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 I felt these words were not entirely inappropriate Sorry, but you'd be wrong. If you are honest with somebody who has never been exposed to honesty, then it is their caregivers that were brutal, not the person being honest. If you did not create an explosion that could end lives and destroy rooms or buildings, you did not drop a bomb. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you started this thread to seek assistance in gauging the circumstances you are in. Here, you are basically saying that while measuring something, you insist that your tools be uncalibrated. This is to ask: How can you be certain if what you're describing is accurate or how could others be certain if what you describe is accurate if you describe and defend the description of the act of being objectively truthful as if it were aggressive and destructive?
Lians Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Well that's a good question. To my knowledge, when she was bored on lunch at work or just had 15 minutes to kill she would just facebook chat people. I guess I'm a funny guy so I was good for a few minutes of entertaining. Thing is, at some point she took a deeper interest in you. I think it would be useful to know when and why that happened. Generally, this is important in any relationship whose dynamic suddenly (or even gradually) changes. You went from an entertainer to a potential boyfriend, which is a pretty drastic change. I'm not a woman (FDR ladies, feel free to chime in), but I'd never consider a relationship with anyone who treated me like that without my explicit permission. Also, scepticism isn't a feeling. I should have been more precise in the way I worded this bit. I was actually referring to the way you're treating her ("it was still mostly me questioning her and not saying too much about myself"). It's not a relationship if it's not reciprocal. I'd be very annoyed if someone who expects to have any kind of relationship with me keeps questioning me while providing little information in return. I'm not telling you to blurt everything out but at least explicitly acknowledge this disparity in openness. Let her decide if she's fine with that. I am very new to RTR so I didn't know if stuff like that you're supposed to not talk about yet or what. thoughts? I'd encourage you to finish reading the book and let it sink in before making any major decisions. RTR, much like empathy, starts with yourself. If you can't acknowledge, be curious and explore your own feelings, you won't really be able to communicate them to others in an effective way.
MattGrimes Posted January 29, 2014 Author Posted January 29, 2014 Sorry, but you'd be wrong. If you are honest with somebody who has never been exposed to honesty, then it is their caregivers that were brutal, not the person being honest. If you did not create an explosion that could end lives and destroy rooms or buildings, you did not drop a bomb.Right i fully understand that. But it is an illusion shatterer is it not? I am intending to use Stefs own words in regards to this topic–'philosophy is radioactive', the first few paragraphs of on truth, etc. You dont just go dropping philosophy everywhere, right? Only people who are ready to put in the work. Expecting people to be able to do this is like expecting people with osteoperosis to play rugby (quoting a podcast from the 880's or so). You have to be gentle. Thats all i was trying to get at. I dont dispute that their brittle bones were inflicted on them but that doesnt mean i can just go around breaking them carelessly, right?
MattGrimes Posted January 29, 2014 Author Posted January 29, 2014 Thing is, at some point she took a deeper interest in you. I think it would be useful to know when and why that happened. Generally, this is important in any relationship whose dynamic suddenly (or even gradually) changes. You went from an entertainer to a potential boyfriend, which is a pretty drastic change. Good point. I will ask. However i would clarify that she was just looking for a friend to talk about important things with, not a lover, and i was the same. I should have been more precise in the way I worded this bit. I was actually referring to the way you're treating her ("it was still mostly me questioning her and not saying too much about myself"). It's not a relationship if it's not reciprocal. I'd be very annoyed if someone who expects to have any kind of relationship with me keeps questioning me while providing little information in return. I'm not telling you to blurt everything out but at least explicitly acknowledge this disparity in openness. Let her decide if she's fine with that.Oh my bad. I misunderstood. I would mention that i think i portrayed it as a little more grueling and unrecoporical than it actually was, but there definitely was a noticable disparity. I think she knew that i was uncomfortable with vulnerability and it was 'okay i told you stuff now you tell me', but we will definitely have a conversation about it. Another good point. I'd encourage you to finish reading the book and let it sink in before making any major decisions. RTR, much like empathy, starts with yourself. If you can't acknowledge, be curious and explore your own feelings, you won't really be able to communicate them to others in an effective way.Yeah for sure. I had no intention of this being a relationship–it crossed my mind whether it was a potential thing but it was by no means a goal– just having a new friend who i could be honest with, and start figuring out the almost 1000 hours of theory and put it in to practice in my life, and bring it to others as well. Of course, i didnt know the best way to do it. I brought up that i felt very anxious over potentially being a hypocrite by talking about these ideas and probing her life while i was still in the infancy of probing my own. It was after that i that somewhat lost interest in digging deep into her (not that i am against it now, but previously my whole idea was apply this to other people and fix them instead of me) and was more interested in being open about myself–something i believe is positive. I will finish RTR in the next few days. Thanks as always for your input
Lians Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 I remembered a few additional details about your conversation with Stef. I think I can tie this in a little better for you. Your relationship with this girl is not founded on any clear boundaries. You're neither friends nor lovers, which is a state that you describe as weird - a substitute word for lack of boundaries. At the end of your call, Stef decided to focus on your inability to set and maintain boundaries. Whatever happened after the call ended up with you attracting a girl that has a pretty clear deficiency when it comes to boundaries. This is why I stressed the importance of exploring sudden changes in a relationship dynamic.
Canoe_Captain Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I was in a more or less similar situation in 2009. So my advice for my own self back in 2009 would have been: “Talk honestly about your feelings the next time you see her as soon as possible. Do not postpone it because of a tense situation or because of anything. If you fail to tell her, just send her a message with your thoughts and feelings the next morning. You do not have to mention that you love her, but tell her that the friendship is most precious to you and that you are developing romantic feelings.” The reasoning behind my advice: This way you prevent falling deeper in love with her if she is not romantically interested. Furthermore you prevent her from feeling rejected, in case she has developed feelings for you, but is too shy to disclose her romantic feelings first. The background story We had common friends and so we had a great first 20 minutes talk with listening and sympathy at a fun fair in 2003 when we were 17 years old. But she had a boyfriend and I was just too shy and my self-esteem too damaged by my childhood to even try to ask for a date. We kept in touch via mail and through the yearly meet up of our friends at Christmas. So when we were 23 we had again a great conversation in 2008 and I added her on Facebook and we stayed in contact even more. Then she asked me to join her on a one-month backpacking trip in 2009. I was torn between agreeing to the trip or just honestly telling her: “I do not want a trip. I want a date!” But since I never had any luck with courting women back then, I thought, a date would have had almost no chance of success and spending one month with a great friend was just too precious for me too refuse. I had already developed romantic feelings for her before the trip. The trip contained lots of deep, honest conversations every day. She was sympathetic and the best conversationalist I ever talked to. During the trip I was really tense, since I was constantly looking for a good occasion to tell her about my romantic feelings, but I always postponed. When I finally wrote her about my romantic feelings in a message in 2010, she had already started a new relationship. She married that guy in 2013 (I was among the wedding guests). I found out about FDR, RTR and honesty in relationships a few month after her wedding. Encountering this woman has given me reason for thought on many days since 2009. Disclaimer: I have not yet fully processed my own dysfunctional history.
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