MysterionMuffles Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 A friend of mine posted this: http://imgur.com/a/RmAjE And then her friend raged at me for simply saying that there should be a philosophical epilogue where The Friendzoner examines why she attracted such a man in the first place. Your thoughts?
Chris Harris Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 I agree with you, the beginning of the comic was pretty funny though it devolved into both people attacking each other verbally and emotionally which kind of shows that its acceptable to act in that why when something like that happens. One person must be the "winner" or dominate the interaction. It would have been nice if around the middle when the friend-zone part happened if there could have been something like a Socratic dialogue or a different method that doesn't seem to retreat into the same "guys vs girls" type fight that can be seen in a lot of things.
Wuzzums Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Ah, the friendzone, the subject of much hilarity. Skip to 2:04
Lians Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 To me, the whole friend zone issue seems to arise out of men's inability to communicate and respect their own preferences when it comes to women. You want a romantic relationship with her? Tell her about it. She doesn't want to be in a romantic relationship with you? Move on. I'll let you be the judge of women who take advantage of guys like that.
dsayers Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 While not flawless, I thought the dialogue was a fairly balanced look at these common stereotypes. Mr. Harris is right though that there's no examination into the creation of the stereotypes. @Mint Berry Crunch: Chances are, the way you worded it was mistaken for blaming the victim. This could be unresolved trauma by the recipient. I for one totally understand what you mean and agree that it is a valuable insight into self-knowledge.
Kevin Beal Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Do people not realize when someone who's a friend is romantically interested? To me it seems entirely obvious. There are often bits in comedies that highlight how obvious it is (like the video above which is fucking hilarious). Either a person doesn't realize and should accept after realizing how obvious it was that it's something they should look at in themselves, or they do know and they are stringing them along. Notice in the comic strip how the guy never actually said she was obligated in any way to date him. He expressed disappointment and frustration. Like omg, what an asshole! haha. I'm irritated by how lots of women (and men to a lesser extent) pretend not to know. Lot's of guys want to take the route of being friends first to get to know her and because they don't have to face rejection so quickly, and then they move forward from there. And it works, often, which is why guys do it. And it seems hard to believe that women don't automatically suspect that when a guy is becoming friendly. And the guy said straight up explicitly that he wanted to go on a real date with her. He was clear and honest about his intentions.
Guest Exceptionalist Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 To me, the whole friend zone issue seems to arise out of men's inability to communicate and respect their own preferences when it comes to women. You want a romantic relationship with her? Tell her about it. She doesn't want to be in a romantic relationship with you? Move on. I'll let you be the judge of women who take advantage of guys like that. That's easy, "nail her" and make her commit or denial her feelings for you. Just because you are a man doesn't mean the chivalry rules of 1788 apply to you. It is not like you would have to kneel in front of her naked, beg the princess to have the honour to be her guy and to have to fear her majesty's judgement. That's outdated slavish behaviour and dating is not a BDSM session. It is more like the game with the rabbit and the snake without knowing who is who.
ribuck Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 It took me years to understand the real implication of being friendzoned. You have been courting a woman when she friendzones you. Friendzoning doesn't mean "I don't want a romantic relationship, let's be friends". Friendzoning means "I don't want a romantic relationship, and I'm not going to be friends, but I want you to keep doing all those nice things you did while courting my romance". Being friendzoned means there's no chance of a romantic relationship, nor of a reciprocal friendship.
dsayers Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Awesome point, ribuck. I had never thought of that before, but you're right.
Guest Exceptionalist Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 It took me years to understand the real implication of being friendzoned. You have been courting a woman when she friendzones you. Friendzoning doesn't mean "I don't want a romantic relationship, let's be friends". Friendzoning means "I don't want a romantic relationship, and I'm not going to be friends, but I want you to keep doing all those nice things you did while courting my romance". Being friendzoned means there's no chance of a romantic relationship, nor of a reciprocal friendship. You as a man can turn it either into a sexual relationship or make her spill the beans if you don't want to take the risk of rejection. You don't have to do those outdated things, just because of CULTural norms.
Wuzzums Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 To me, the whole friend zone issue seems to arise out of men's inability to communicate and respect their own preferences when it comes to women. You want a romantic relationship with her? Tell her about it. She doesn't want to be in a romantic relationship with you? Move on. I'll let you be the judge of women who take advantage of guys like that. Yep, I think you hit the nail on its head. But it also applies to women. Guys cannot say they're interested whilst women cannot say they're not interested. If the intentions aren't stated at the beginning both parties enter a cat and mouse game. Can't really speak what it's like for women, but for a guy that has no idea what's up with the relationship and keeps getting messages like "meet a guy like you", "why can't all men be like you", "you're such a nice guy" and so on, it's no wonder he's gonna tread lightly and keep to himself his true feelings.
PatrickC Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 And then her friend raged at me for simply saying that there should be a philosophical epilogue where The Friendzoner examines why she attracted such a man in the first place. Your thoughts? As the video Kevin posted highlighted. Women know what most men prefer to ignore. Although, it can and does happen the other way sometimes. It's just a lot rarer and for very different reasons compared to women. The female friend zoner is basically acquiring resources. Whether it's emotional support, physical labour, protection or a potential love interest if all else fails. This is in her biological nature. Which is why they are coy when pressed as to the intentions of their male friends. They don't want men to know and lose those resources. This might be why your friend railed at you MM.
Guest Exceptionalist Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Yep, I think you hit the nail on its head. But it also applies to women. Guys cannot say they're interested whilst women cannot say they're not interested. If the intentions aren't stated at the beginning both parties enter a cat and mouse game. Can't really speak what it's like for women, but for a guy that has no idea what's up with the relationship and keeps getting messages like "meet a guy like you", "why can't all men be like you", "you're such a nice guy" and so on, it's no wonder he's gonna tread lightly and keep to himself his true feelings. That's why he has to break the cicle by asking her for her intentions, subtle or direct. The latter if she tries to weasle out. One of them has to make a move sooner or later, but there is no reason why he should be the one, just because he is a man.
MysterionMuffles Posted January 28, 2014 Author Posted January 28, 2014 Wow Kevin excellent point. That's how the women on my FB are phrasing it as: she don't need no man, das all. Guy's are all like "she dumped me because I treated her like a human being," etc. You can guess how misrepresented it has been to them. I'm actually trying to go for equality in that each person has a CHOICE in who they want to be with. The women are claiming that the man demands obligatory sex, in which cases it may happen, but when I argued against it, I just said a plain and simple critique. It's not to shame the female of the comic, but to empower by giving her moral responsibility. The epilogue would be suiting if she questioned herself and her own motives. Did she string him along? But yeah Kevin, good call on pointing out that the guy was just expressing a preference and that's how it's gonna be dealt with? THank YOU, kind bitch, for showing me what our relationship would have been like. Rejection doesn't suck anymore, especially when you know it comes from a woman who lacks self awareness. As the video Kevin posted highlighted. Women know what most men prefer to ignore. Although, it can and does happen the other way sometimes. It's just a lot rarer and for very different reasons compared to women. The female friend zoner is basically acquiring resources. Whether it's emotional support, physical labour, protection or a potential love interest if all else fails. This is in her biological nature. Which is why they are coy when pressed as to the intentions of their male friends. They don't want men to know and lose those resources. This might be why your friend railed at you MM. friend of a friend fortunately. Someone I deleted off my FB many years ago lol. But thanks for the clarification also!
Chris Harris Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 It took me years to understand the real implication of being friendzoned. You have been courting a woman when she friendzones you. Friendzoning doesn't mean "I don't want a romantic relationship, let's be friends". Friendzoning means "I don't want a romantic relationship, and I'm not going to be friends, but I want you to keep doing all those nice things you did while courting my romance". Being friendzoned means there's no chance of a romantic relationship, nor of a reciprocal friendship. Wow that is a really good analysis of the situation, one that I haven't been able to see (or have skirted around) until you pointed it out so thank you Ribuck! I think this helps explain why (like Wuzzums said) women tend to string the guys along that are in the friend zone. I have had an experience like that and I remember the girl said those exact things "you're such a nice guy" and "why can't i find a guy like you" and I replied with well I'm right here and she just laughed it off. She wanted all the benefits that came with courting without a romantic relationship or a reciprocal friendship. Incidentally that behavior is what led me to question her character, since it seems sadistic (might be a bit harsh) to say that to someone when you know their intentions/desires.
PatrickC Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Rejection doesn't suck anymore, especially when you know it comes from a woman who lacks self awareness. Yes, this is the great utility in rejection. It's just useful information that allows you to focus on more productive things or better relationships. I'm a lot older now of course and been rejected too many times to mention. But now I understand the motives and ambitions of those women I take it a lot less personally than I did in my blue pill phase.
Kevin Beal Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 I don't think that there were nearly this many women who feel like the friend-zoner does until recently. At least I had never heard the perspective until recently. I wonder if this has anything to do with the growing number of men who are MGTOW or otherwise feeling a lot less willing to jump through hoops for female companionship. The whole idea that feminism (for example) is being increasingly ridiculed, that there is a whole sub-culture who has no interest in dating, reddit groups pointing out all the double standards around men and women in dating. If it is true that some groups of women are finding it increasingly difficult to get away with shitty behavior, it might explain the, frankly hostile, reaction of some women who do the friend zoning. This is not to say that every friend zoned guy is completely innocent and exploited, I'm just talking about the friend zone that we see most of the time. And hell, maybe guys are getting some secondary gain I'm not aware of. I don't know.
Kevin Beal Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Also, I totally forgot about this awesome video by GirlWritesWhat about this very topic:
MysterionMuffles Posted February 4, 2014 Author Posted February 4, 2014 I got into an argument with my actual friend about this. I whole heartedly accept and appreciate the sentiment of exposing inauthentic nice guys as sexual manipulators, but am I right to say that the woman has the responsibility of looking out for red flags? I think you can spot an inauthentic nice guy based on how many unasked favours he does for his female friend, never expects anything in return (except for sex at a vulnerable time) and basically never challenges her on any intellectual or emotional level. I'm not sure if that logic holds, but please tell me if that makes sense. Apparently she had to turn down a guy friend multiple times, and I commended her for the first time. But wouldn't it be worth examining yourself to see why you attract these kinda guys into your life and continue to enable their act? He's just as responsible for examining why he continues to pursue someone he knows is going to reject him. Just trying to UPB but my friend couldn't understand. All I got "was boo-hoo, I'm hot, it's not my fault they get attracted to me," and the self righteous "but I value him as a friend, I just can't ditch him." Well yeah...sure you can if he keeps advancing on you when you've already told him not to. Also especially if you've chosen to see him all the times you had to reject him. Oh female responsibility. What a way to shake the world's shit up.
Kevin Beal Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 I got into an argument with my actual friend about this. I whole heartedly accept and appreciate the sentiment of exposing inauthentic nice guys as sexual manipulators, but am I right to say that the woman has the responsibility of looking out for red flags? I think you can spot an inauthentic nice guy based on how many unasked favours he does for his female friend, never expects anything in return (except for sex at a vulnerable time) and basically never challenges her on any intellectual or emotional level. I'm not sure if that logic holds, but please tell me if that makes sense. I'm not sure I understand your use of the words "inauthentic" and "manipulators". The guy in the comic was direct and wasn't being dishonest, necessarily. In fact he was attacked when he was most honest. Nice guys tend not to exploit a vulnerable woman into offering up sex to him. That would be a sleezy jerk guy, who is not likely to spend a whole lot of his time doing things for her. I don't think I have ever seen a case of a friend-zoned guy where the gal didn't play into it in some way. It may actually be the case the sexual manipulator is her. At the very least, it seems to me to be too little information, being friend-zoned, to determine who is manipulating who. If it gets to the point where there is a blow up like depicted in the comic, I seriously doubt that ignorance is sufficient enough an explanation. How would you feel about someone who is desperate to do things for you and does not say what is in it for them? For me, it makes me very suspicious and I limit my time with them. Unless it's a lady, in which case I get that she prolly likes me, and I can understand a little desperation. I mean, come on, it's me we're talking about. I can't help it if I'm hot! I hope the irony is clear
PatrickC Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 Unless it's a lady, in which case I get that she prolly likes me, and I can understand a little desperation. I mean, come on, it's me we're talking about. I can't help it if I'm hot! Could I have a double helping of 'flamin hot wing Kevin'. Please sir, go easy on the tabasco sauce. What with my delicate palate and all..
Kevin Beal Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 Could I have a double helping of 'flamin hot wing Kevin'. Please sir, go easy on the tabasco sauce. What with my delicate palate and all.. Haha! The feeling is mutual
dsayers Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 All I got "was boo-hoo, I'm hot, it's not my fault they get attracted to me," Since you have the South Park theme going on, think Bebe's Boobs Destroy Society. As soon as Bebe realizes that people will treat her differently based on her sexuality, she understands the ramifications of a life without challenges and chooses instead to play down her sexuality in order to be treated like a human being. How many women take on this outlook in real life? There's a lot of pressure in society in terms of make-up, accessories, and fashion even for the sake of competition with other women. I guess the point I'm making, as you already grasp I'm sure, is that she's not helpless to condition the behaviors around her by getting closer to people of virtue and distancing herself from people who lack virtue. And of course conducting herself in a way as to attract people of virtue and put off people who lack virtue.
MysterionMuffles Posted February 24, 2014 Author Posted February 24, 2014 lol that episode is gonna be worth the rewatch, thanks! and thanks for the video share Kevin, Im gonna go listen to it right now. Thanks to the argument I had with my friend, my attraction for her died a horribly death, like a mangled ox on a train track that got pulverized by a bulldozer. That's not to say I can't be friends with her, but dating now is completely off the table if she chews up and spits out all her guy friends who just want to openly admit they like her.
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