Mark Carolus Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 If someone, ANYONE, could explain to me, how an anarchist free market philosophy, will solve this issue, i will officially declare myself one of you. But i don't think you can really, cause "free" or not, people WILL keep competing and working harder and harder, ultimately forcing everybody else to compete and work harder and harder AND FOR WHAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Solve... what? The video is a generalization. How is violence solving the issue? Violence impedes innovation. Violence is inefficient. Violence sucks wealth away from the people creating and earning it. VIOLENCE IS IMMORAL. I don't think you understand how much wealthier everybody would be if there wasn't a state. How much more innovative every field would be. How much less you'd have to work in a given year to pay for this and that. How much more you'd be paid for your skills. How much more time, effort, and wealth we'd all have, to put towards more useful and beneficial things. None of this matters because your approach strikes me as disingenuous. You haven't defined the issue, you haven't indicated how violence solves it, yet you claim that you will subscribe to non-violence if somebody can explain how non-violence will solve the issue. All of which suggests that the immorality of violence is less important than the consequences. Sorry, but consequentialism has no place in philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carolus Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 What's this i keep reading over and over here, who said anything about violence? i certainly didn't. Look, here is how the FACTS work out. 5 people work in a company that installs toilets. 4 of the workers install 5 toilets a day, but the 5th can do 8 toilets a day. In any form of capitalism, the boss of the 5 toilet installers, will be happiest with the 5th toilet installer and therefore less happy with the other 4. This creates pressure on the other 4 toilet installers, which will get them to work harder (or be replaced by someone else who will). Now we have 5 toilet installers, installing 8 toilets a day. But then one day, a 6th toilet installer is hired and this toilet installer wants to prove himself towards his boss. The new toilet installer can install 11 toilets per day, YAY says the boss, and we are back where we started. While i do agree that technology has made work less demanding on a physical level, the amount of pressure on workers on every other conceivable level, has always increased. Next to this, we are now living in a world where 80 to 90% of EVERYTHING we buy, is utter crap (Yes i agree, this is an opinion). Infinite wants are a creation of the market, not the other way around. Don't believe this? well, do you want something you haven't even thought of yet? i didn't think so, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to want something you've never even thought of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wuzzums Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 If someone, ANYONE, could explain to me, how an anarchist free market philosophy, will solve this issue, i will officially declare myself one of you. If someone, ANYONE, could explain to me, how a non-anarchist free market philosophy, will solve [enter issue here], i will officially declare myself one of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 In the industrial revolution, where competition grew the most, a proportionate number of people achieved positions where they didn't have to work. Competition increases individual capital individual capital increases everyone's wealth wealth means having more opportunities to work or not work I am compelled to work and learn very quickly in the field of front end development, because the number of people learning these skills, the quickly changing landscape and the fact that my own skills are becoming more and more outdated. That in fact, does not bother me one bit. It's an amazing opportunity if I can stay out ahead since it means I'll be an early adopter, I'm a position where it's easier for me than most, and me and the team all benefit, as do the customers and affiliates and partners we do work with. We can test your hypothesis by looking at the places where there is the most competition and that means that should be the place where there is the most pressure put on workers. And this fails. The areas of the market where there is the most competition, like in hardware and software, there are plenty of people who work 10 hour weeks and are in positions where they can securely do so. This list of countries listed by amount of labor regulation negatively corresponds heavily with the list of the wealthiest nations. While i do agree that technology has made work less demanding on a physical level, the amount of pressure on workers on every other conceivable level, has always increased. This isn't even remotely true. I'm astonished that you could say such a thing! The entirety of human history has been a horrifying life, barely achieving subsistence. Poverty in the past was associated with starvation, when now it's associated with obesity. Nobody could do any of the kinds of jobs we hate to do (like refuse collecting) because if they weren't farmers, they and their family would starve to death. Vacations, health benefits, bonuses, I mean come on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 What's this i keep reading over and over here, who said anything about violence? i certainly didn't. Your title is why libertarianism (non-violent) and "the free market" (non-coercive) will not work. Look, here is how the FACTS work out. 5 people work in a company that installs toilets... Yes, let's look at how the FACTS work out by turning to a hypothetical. In any form of capitalism, the boss of the 5 toilet installers, will be happiest with the 5th toilet installer and therefore less happy with the other 4. You mean that the other 4 are less valuable. Happiness is not achieved by installing toilets or paying people to install toilets. The boss and all installers working for him are involved in a mutually beneficial exchange of goods and services. Nothing problematic here. This creates pressure on the other 4 toilet installers, which will get them to work harder How do you know that installing more toilets in the same amount of time is the product of working harder? How do you know that working harder is a bad thing? I have a buddy who's younger than me. He worked really hard to go to college and make something of himself. He's amassed more wealth in several years than I have in my entire adult life. He doesn't have to work very hard at all and his downtime is more enriching. These are products of his working hard. You have yet to identify a problem or how violence is solving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Infinite wants are a creation of the market, not the other way around. Don't believe this? well, do you want something you haven't even thought of yet? i didn't think so, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to want something you've never even thought of. It is a praxeological fact that people's wants are infinite. Your argument is specious because you are saying something has to exist already to be desired. That's just simply not true. I want many many things that aren't available yet. And all the things that I want that are available are valued at a higher dollar amount than I would prefer. I would like everything to cost a penny. If it what you were saying were true, then the entire basis of austrian economics would false and people who practice principled economics could not account for, or predict happenings in the market. And yet it is the austrians who have predicted all of these bubbles and whose accounts of our economic past are the most consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Stop working so much. Problem solved. Are you an anarchist now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I just realized that perhaps a better approach would be "hey guys, I'm having a hard time understanding how this is supposed to work in a free society, could you help me address this challenge?" I think it's better than "you guys need to justify yourselves to me concerning this challenge". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Lawrence Moore Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I hope I have the right chapter, but I think this couple-minute clip explains the situation pretty well: https://mises.org/media/7327/14-Cooperation-How-a-Free-Market-Benefits-Everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Next to this, we are now living in a world where 80 to 90% of EVERYTHING we buy, is utter crap (Yes i agree, this is an opinion). Infinite wants are a creation of the market, not the other way around. Don't believe this? well, do you want something you haven't even thought of yet? i didn't think so, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to want something you've never even thought of. why is 80-90% of what you buy crap? why don't you decide to not buy crap? you decide to not buy crap, a market can't decide for you to not buy crap. what is crap to you, you don't buy, do i want something i have not thought of yet? yes, if it solves a problem that i do have. problems that people have drive markets, not products that people invent to solve those problems people can work for wants, or they can work for needs, people can decide what they need, and what they will do in order to fullfill the need to get what the person wants to purchase. While i do agree that technology has made work less demanding on a physical level, the amount of pressure on workers on every other conceivable level, has always increased. how did you come up with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorBlux Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 It won't fix the problem the the extent that it's a psychological problem. People trying to define themselves by what they do, what they own, and where they are in the hierarchy. (Who is richer, the man who makes 50,000 and spends 35,000 or the man who makes 1,000,000 and spends 1,100,000?, which one wakes up in a cold sweat at the prospect of losing his job?) But the free market offers ways to reduce the concentration of economic power, and reduce barriers of entry to entrepreneurship and competition. (Make a job for yourself). It will enable new and better inventions that increase the effectiveness and efficiency on domestic work done for the household. This would let people drop out of the job market and sustain themselves on their own labour or long periods of time or even indefinitely unless or until they found a job with suitable terms. What's this i keep reading over and over here, who said anything about violence? i certainly didn't. Look, here is how the FACTS work out. 5 people work in a company that installs toilets. 4 of the workers install 5 toilets a day, but the 5th can do 8 toilets a day. In any form of capitalism, the boss of the 5 toilet installers, will be happiest with the 5th toilet installer and therefore less happy with the other 4. This creates pressure on the other 4 toilet installers, which will get them to work harder (or be replaced by someone else who will). Now we have 5 toilet installers, installing 8 toilets a day. But then one day, a 6th toilet installer is hired and this toilet installer wants to prove himself towards his boss. The new toilet installer can install 11 toilets per day, YAY says the boss, and we are back where we started. While i do agree that technology has made work less demanding on a physical level, the amount of pressure on workers on every other conceivable level, has always increased. Next to this, we are now living in a world where 80 to 90% of EVERYTHING we buy, is utter crap (Yes i agree, this is an opinion). Infinite wants are a creation of the market, not the other way around. Don't believe this? well, do you want something you haven't even thought of yet? i didn't think so, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to want something you've never even thought of. But if you were an independent contractor being paid per toilet and there are many projects available on which you can submit your bid? Rat race goes away, do as many projects as you need to live, and then go live your life. Or even we go back to the employee situation but stipulate that any one of them were qualified and competent be become and independent contractor and compete with their former employer on terms of price and quality. You might get some friendly competition between workers but you couldn't grind them down with it. Or even if this were an employee cooperative so that employees would have power to appoint new management if work starts to take too much of their personal time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippert Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 People who are overworking, do so by choice. In europe, especially if you are educated you can make a comfortably living with 40/week. So I will deconstruct that video: There you have the banker: A established banker who commits suicide doesn't do this because of economic reasons. He could retire at all time, because his salary was so high, that he should have a fortune, if he hasn't spend it on cocaine. So getting fired should not affect him that much. The banking industry is like sports. If you want to make it to the very top, you have train hard and commit yourself. It is commitement which distorts their sense of reality and makes them kill themselves in hard times/ working 21 hours a day. But these people know it when they apply, and who am I to know if this risk is worth it? For my part I had the option to a banking career and dismissed it, because of this commitment thing, for the same reason I am not a profesional sportsman. Second there is a process in motion thats called automation. This process reduces demand for traditional work and rises demand for work in the automation field. Engineers get paid an average 100k euro (!) entry income in germany these days, still rising. So I have chosen this career path. I am currently studying in that field, and some of my classmates are 30 year old historians, reorienting, so it is never too late. I recommend working in the automation field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovePrevails Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 If someone, ANYONE, could explain to me, how an anarchist free market philosophy, will solve this issue, i will officially declare myself one of you. But i don't think you can really, cause "free" or not, people WILL keep competing and working harder and harder, ultimately forcing everybody else to compete and work harder and harder AND FOR WHAT? No my friend, the "rat race" is modelled on our upbringing - not free market principles the main concept of the free market is cooperation and choice of who to cooperate with in win-win negotiations all the evidence on how people best learn says that people best learn in a cooperative learning environment however, government schools are all based on individual work and competition primarily if not completely, what is called cooperation in the workplace is called "cheating" at school So, you have people who are 12-14 years trained in working for themselves that means that is how they are used to working, in a hierarchy - and the workplace is modelled on what people know if they had gone through 12-14 years of cooperative learning it would be a different story people would be so skilled in cooperation that entrepreneurs would use those skills and organise the workplace according to peoples strength which would lead to more cooperative, fulfilling, engaging workplaces where workers were engaged in discussing ideas and planning strategies and problem solving the way we are trained to compete has nothing to do with the free market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fleming Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Who is working themselves to death? Not those in the public sector, that's for sure. Not those on public pensions either. If you look at it, you have got people in the private sector working very hard and sometimes with insane hours and those in the public sector, well, for the most part sitting around doing not much for 40 hours a week. Doesn't that kind of seem insane? Why is there a need for people to work so hard? Taxes, maybe.... That's not to say there won't be workaholics anyway but would the average person work that long if they weren't paying insane levels of tax? And where is the tax going for the most part? To non-productive workers. Inflation is another reason. When it's difficult to save money you have to work more just to keep up. This is why it's often said, paraphrasing "inflation greases the wheel of the economy" or something like that. What it really means is that people are forced to work harder and more and more resources are consumed than is necessary. Government also creates the wildly swinging boom bust cycle. So that instead of having an undulating sustainable economy we have wild swings up and down. In many places they have inflated the price of property, one of the major reasons people work, beyond all reason and people feel like they need to work harder just to keep up with insane propety prices and the accompanying mortgages. Of course with all this extra money pouring into banks, bankers salaries end up inflated also. I could go on and on. The state-run economy is just complete madness. But the fundamental problem is that it is predicated on the initiation of force. On authoritarianism. It is an unfortunate relic of our history, like slavery was, and must be purged like slavery had to be purged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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