bootoo Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Get some interesting reactions in the chatroom with certain topics. Think the forum would be a good place to discuss some of these in better detail. First principals, I believe the NAP is the way to go. I dont believe you should go to jail or die for not paying taxes or obeying your government. However the problem comes when i start to talk about people, the value of people, and how i would want to treat people in my imaginary post-state world I think humans are the most valuable thing on the planet. In my imaginary world i would like to be surrounded by the best possible humans. The book/movie 'Stress - portrait of a killer' with dr robert sapolsky and 'guns germs and steel' by jared diamond are very enlightening if you still think that all human achievement is down to the effort and will put in by the individual person. When you see the limitations of living in south america before oil (lack of livestock, lack of good protein sources) or the need to be in smaller more spread out communities to try to avoid malaria in Africa you will see why some societies are more advanced than others. When you look at the studies in 'stress portrait of a killer' showing that the closer you are to the 'poverty' line the more likely you are to develop sickness and disease...and you see the effects of stress on the mind in response to violence or the threat of violence (constant fight of flight activation actually makes you dumber, lowers your ability to reason or make a better decision) it makes it easier to take a compassionate approach to human beings. 'Standing on the shoulders of giants' is true, i once thought smart people were people that went and got degrees...i now know that smart people are those who go out and do the work that eventually gets put into textbooks and taught at universities. We owe so many people for everything we have, whether its the house you live in or the advances in construction that have you warm and insulated but not dying of cancer from asbestos poisoning. I think there is a way to get smart, happy, healthy, community minded people....and then there is how 'we' (they) are doing it, creating angry unhealthy selfish zombies. Here's the lefty problem.... I say 'If i ran a company i would want to find a way to offer everyone who wanted it, from the cleaner to the chairman, access to education and healthcare for their whole family' Or i say 'If i was financially secure i would like to farm and give the food away for free to people who don't have any' Or i say 'if i was rich i wouldnt hire someone to clean my toilet, i would hire someone to clean the toilet of someone curing cancer to give them more time to work on the cure, or i would hire someone to cure cancer' Or i say 'I wish there was an option other than 'starve and die' so that people didn't just get jobs to pay the bills, their engagement and the quality of production is terrible if they are just trying to get a paycheck, there would be no drug war or war in iraq if people had another option' and also 'Let the losers stay at home if that's what they want, sitting around watching daytime tv and taking drugs is no long term solution to find peace and happiness, however if they would rather do that than be at work let them, that way i'm not stuck cleaning up their shit all day when they jack everything up from their lack of attention or caring' In response to these immediately the 'left' accusations come up, i guess because this is the rhetoric used by lefties to justify taxing and spending and large government institutions...however I would hope all of these can be achieved without government, and i wouldnt ever want to force anything on anyone, i try to make it clear that these are what i would like to do, and not that these are what i would like others to do for me, yet the leftie accusations fly so what do you think? Am i a lefty in denial? Are these even possible in the anarchy system (i say yes, because without anyone to tell me what to do I can do what i want)? Does anyone else think they should care about the quality of their fellow man? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 First of all, left or not doesn't matter. Does it initiate force or not is paramount. Beyond that, any proposition simply needs to be feasible. I think humans are the most valuable thing on the planet. In my imaginary world i would like to be surrounded by the best possible humans. This is vague. I don't know how humans qualify as the most valuable thing or why that information would be of any use. Nor do I understand what best possible humans means. I say 'If i ran a company i would want to find a way to offer everyone who wanted it, from the cleaner to the chairman, access to education and healthcare for their whole family' "Education" is vague. What if one guy working for you has a PhD and another doesn't even have a GED? "Healthcare" is vague. What if one guy is a 20 year old Jack Lalanne and another was born with one lung, is 60, and smoked since he was 15? "Their whole family" is vague. Are you talking about a guy and his girlfriend of the month or a guy who lives with his grandparents, has 3 wives, 8 children, and 14 grandchildren? The point being that to say things like education and healthcare is arrogant. You don't know what their individuals needs are. That's why you pay them what they're worth and they can decide what they will spend their money on. Besides that, why education and healthcare and not a house with indoor plumbing and food? People need food, water, and shelter before they need education and healthcare. Put it all together and you're now paying $100,000 for the first year for a guy to mop the floor. You can't start a business with that model and you cannot sustain a business with that model. Or i say 'If i was financially secure i would like to farm and give the food away for free to people who don't have any' Why do they have no food while you are financially secure? If you just go and dump a bunch of food on an area, you're going to wreck the local economy and impoverish the area further. Much better would be to share the technology with them (be this education or actual equipment) so that they can acquire their own food. By all means familiarize yourself with Norman Borlaug. He's mankind's 2nd best friend. Or i say 'if i was rich i wouldnt hire someone to clean my toilet, i would hire someone to clean the toilet of someone curing cancer to give them more time to work on the cure, or i would hire someone to cure cancer' So if you hired the person, what would the contract look like? If a year goes by and they do not cure cancer, do you not have to pay them anything? How do you know where the cure for cancer will come from? Will it come from a scope that gives us the ability to see in real time which cells are effected and efficiently cut them out? Will it come from a way to strengthen the cells so that they're not susceptible to the code being knocked out of whack? Will it come from inducing a psuedo cancer that provides the cell with a backup and train it to default to the backup in the event that the more susceptible code is compromised? Who knows? If we don't know, then how can you know who will do it that you can just send them money or a maid or whatever? I think this might be why that accusation of lefty gets made. There's no actual identification of a problem, just an espoused desire for a solution. Without understanding the problem, no solution can be provided. So the claim ends up being little more than an ego stroke. Or i say 'I wish there was an option other than 'starve and die' so that people didn't just get jobs to pay the bills, their engagement and the quality of production is terrible if they are just trying to get a paycheck Where does this claim come from? Just as with the education and healthcare point above, you don't seem to understand that a paycheck is a means to an end. A person might not like scrubbing toilets, but they damn sure like being able to eat. If you only paid them in food though, they wouldn't have shelter or be able to save for a house or education to improve their human capital and so on. So you pay them a wage and they can do all of that. If their performance isn't satisfactory, you can address that issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovePrevails Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 it just sounds to me like you care about people If that is your passion great! I suggest you look into some kind of career in the helping profession or learn some skills which you think increase the quality of your life and teach them to others or you could work towards creating some kind of foundation that offers a truly life-enriching education use your passion to bring light to your life and the life of those around you, then you will set a good example for others that is the NAP way to change the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootoo Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 I don't know how humans qualify as the most valuable thing or why that information would be of any use. Nor do I understand what best possible humans means. "Education" is vague "Healthcare" is vague The point being that to say things like education and healthcare is arrogant. You don't know what their individuals needs are Why do they have no food while you are financially secure? If you just go and dump a bunch of food on an area, you're going to wreck the local economy and impoverish the area further. Much better would be to share the technology with them (be this education or actual equipment) so that they can acquire their own food. By all means familiarize yourself with Norman Borlaug. He's mankind's 2nd best friend. What do you hold more valuable than other humans? I cant think of anything more valuable to myself or any other human.... You dont understand what best possible human means? can you imagine a bad human? an average human? a better than average human? can you view humans on a scale from 'better' to 'worse?' the closest to the 'better' side of the scale are the best possible humans Education - some examples...identify classes and courses that will benefit the business or the community and put funds or scholarships together...if the job requires a degree already, meaning i've outsourced the education/training of my employees, then I could offer a pay increase to help cover interest or loan repayments...seems easy to come up with ways to help, its only hard when you consider people who dont offer these to employees will be able to smash you on prices and beat you in the market Same with heathcare - i dont care if you are 60 or 15, i dont care if worked for me a decade or a day, the point is a humans wellbeing directly effects their performance and their behavior - of course we arent talking boob jobs and butt implants...but this seems easy to think up, i dont know whats hard about it? About food....so teach people to grow their own food...how are they supposed to do the work if they have no energy because they have no food? Why would people have nothing if i am secure? can you really not imagine any reasons? perhaps they still live in a country controlled by a state, maybe they are part of the guaranteed built in underclass of that states economic system? droughts? floods? climate change? bird flu? People need to eat if you want them to work, people need to work right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 You've only confirmed by observation. Rather than being able to offer an explanation, you assume a given and shift the onus onto the person who suggests it's not a given. What do you hold more valuable than other humans? I cant think of anything more valuable to myself or any other human.... I never indicated I had an opinion. I stated an uncertainty as to how YOU arrived at that evaluation. You dont understand what best possible human means? can you imagine a bad human? an average human? a better than average human? can you view humans on a scale from 'better' to 'worse?' the closest to the 'better' side of the scale are the best possible humans In another thread, I had spoken out against words that promoted and protected the assault of defenseless children of somebody who turned out to be Hoppe. To which somebody replied that Hoppe was an accomplished philosopher. How would we rank him compared to somebody that isn't a philosopher at all but accepts that assaulting defenseless children is immoral? People aren't a number that you can just compare. Or add to the number by talking about education and healthcare. They are complex creatures with complex scenarios and complex experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootoo Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 People aren't a number that you can just compare. Or add to the number by talking about education and healthcare. They are complex creatures with complex scenarios and complex experiences. With this in mind, i wonder why you would question my 'vague' statements and why they are based on observations...everything is changing, the answers today may not be the answer tomorrow, what works for one may not for another... I gave a couple of examples of my view of the value of humans and what effects the 'quality' of humans - 'guns germs and steel' and 'Stress - portrait of a killer' - if you wanted to form an opinion i think these are good places to start It appears your point is to personally teach me how to make forum posts...if thats the case, thanks! however back to the point of the post- which is....using the specific point of calling someone a 'lefty' when they hold out that they care about humans and would like to act in the best interests of them...noticing the funny way people act in response to someone thinking out loud about their fellow man I wonder, do you ever think about why people are jerks? or slackers? or suicidal? do you ever think about what you can do to help there be less of all of these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Self-knowledge. Like helping somebody understand that "would like to act in the best interest of them" is not tantamount to helping anybody. Do you accept that you couldn't possibly know what is in my best interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts