Mike Fleming Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 I was listening to the Contagiousness of Crazy show where the guy who was the older brother was describing how he bullied his younger siblings and how Stef was asking him about it and was trying to understand it. I guess Stef being a younger sibling does make it harder for him to understand. I'll try to provide some insights. First my background. I bullied my younger brother. He was 3 years younger than me. What would happen is that I would verbally tease him, try and make him feel bad and angry so that he would then throw the first punch. I would then use my superior strength to beat him and if and when my parents asked what had happened I always used the "he started it" excuse because he always threw the first punch. Why did I do it? God, it's really hard to decipher it looking back. It was almost just like it was instinct to me. My mother verbally abused me and made me feel bad and uncomfortable just for being me and it was like I was trained to do the same. I don't think I was thinking, I just did it. But there was also the other aspect where I would be his friend as well to keep him close so I could attack him whenever I felt the urge. Another aspect is I would feel protective toward him. Other people couldn't attack him, only me. The interesting thing was around the age of 16 or so, I started to realise how wrong it all was. The defining moment for me was when I started to tease a daughter of my parent's friends who was a few years younger than me and she started crying and her parent's were comforting her and I was horrified at the sight of what I'd done. An interesting thing that I remember looking back on that incident is that my mother did not chastise me for it. I just don't remember thinking about it as a kid but once I matured I started to think about it and I didn't like it at all. The short version of what happened next is that it was only a year or so later I fell into depression and had virtually a mental breakdown and, well, my late teens/early 20's were not a good time for me because I was trying to establish a new identity, someone I could respect, but was surrounded on all sides by assholes. There didn't seem to be anyone I could look to to be a model for good behaviour and I remember how frustrating it was for me. It was years later that I started to come across people who I could respect but I was just stumbling aimlessly through life until then and didn't start to like myself until around 30. What did I feel when I went to bully my brother? I can't remember feeling anything at all. Well, just that it seemed like a fun thing to do maybe. I think I was unconsciously thinking that I could get him and then I would feel dominant. That he was someone I had control over. When I felt bad about myself it was kind of a way to assuage it. I think also that the physical violence would get my adrenaline going, kind of like a junkie looking for a fix. I wanted to fight and I wanted someone I knew I could beat. But I couldn't just go hit him because then I would be the one at fault and the one who would be in trouble. He had to hit first, hence the verbal abuse. Whether that's any help at all to try and understand it I don't know. There was never a sense of camaraderie amongst us because basically I was the favoured child of my mother and my brother has told me how he resented that. That drives a wedge between brothers. The happy ending is that my brother and I are now quite close. We haven't fought since around when I was 16 and we have helped each other out many times over the years and see each other regularly and enjoy each other's company.
LucasV Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 I remember bullying my little brother once and I believed it was a good thing to do. For some reason I thought that breaking him down was good for him, that he needed to be broken down and that it would help him or make him stronger or something. I ended up pushing him and it made him cry and after that I realized what I had done was wrong and I apologized and gave him some money I had intended to give him, of course that didn't make up for it but I guess I at least acknowledged that what I did was wrong. I also think there was some motivation not to get caught for what I did, but I don't think the risks of that were very high so I don't think that was a major part of my thinking. I realize I didn't really comment on your piece but this is just what I thought of after reading it, maybe it can provide some insight.
Mike Fleming Posted February 17, 2014 Author Posted February 17, 2014 Thanks. Was it only the one time? For me, I did it multiple times over many years. After further thought on it I think it was a feeling of powerlessness that I felt. That it wasn't fair that I could be beaten down and there was nothing I could do against my attackers (my parents). Then I saw the weaker helpless person and my mind clicked into gear and I thought I could get him and it would make me feel better. I don't think it ever did end up making me feel better though. I think that's why the incidents, from memory, were widely separated. I needed time to forget that it didn't do any good. God, it sounds so sadistic reading it, but that was the reality. These days the behaviour of my parents and extended family just disgust me. They are all children who never wanted to grow up. Just trying to put some thoughts down to maybe help get some community understanding into what I believe is not an uncommon situation, giving the older brother perspective.
LucasV Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 The incident I referred to happened just one time but I have done other things. I am also an oldest child, the oldest of 6. When I was 8 or so I wrestled my little brother and would sit on him and threatened to spit in his mouth. I did this probably three times and it never occurred to me that it was wrong and I didn't try to hide it. I never like really hurt him though it was soft wrestling. I have also made fun of people and I don't remember ever trying to hide anything. I do remember briefly having thoughts of maybe this is wrong as I was making fun of someone but I recall feeling that my motivation for doing so was to find the truth or that I was expressing something true. I don't think that is what I was actually doing but those were my thoughts about it.
Horseradish Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 I am the oldest child in a family with four siblings. The sister two years younger than me and closest to my age, I wouldn't say I bullied her, but as I'm thinking about it there are some things I remember doing or participating in that were definitely bullying. What I remember doing a lot of though was taking advantage of our age difference in games like marbles, I'm not sure if that also falls under bullying, but it's definitely poor treatment. And also we would just fight a lot, which fairly early on was pretty even I guess because I was overweight, but I remember many fights where I thought I would win that turned out to be pretty even. I never even thought about all these things I've done until Stefan talked about his brother doing stuff like this to him, and Stefan would say that his brother was accountable for those things to some extent. When he talked about this, I thought back my childhood. And for me, the things I did to my sister didn't seem at all conscious. Like not only was there no malicious intent, but there was no intent at all. Most of my childhood feels that way. That things just kind of happened, that I wasn't making choices, that I just did what I thought I should do at the time. So when Stef talked about his brother's being responsible, it really made me think about whether I was responsible, because my childhood certainly didn't feel that way. The whole thing up until maybe age 12 or so just feels like a film in my head, not like something I participated in. But I was also the person who did them. I tried talking to my sister about it once. I think I brought up a memory. I don't remember if I apologized, or if I said something like "that was really awful of me" or something. But I do know she just brushed off the topic. Something like "It's fine, forget about it, it's not a big deal, let's talk about something else". And this was a few years ago, so maybe when I brought it up I really didn't want to talk about it, which she might have sensed and then wanted to brush off the topic too. I also brought it up with my therapist, just the age difference thing, I didn't think of the other stuff at the time. I gave an example of playing marbles, and I would tell my sister rules that would help me win, like I would use a big marble and she would use a small one, or I would say she needs to hit my marble twice to win but I would only have to hit her marble once to win. This was when we were pretty little, what comes to mind is ages 5 and 3, but I'm not sure if that's right at all. My therapist said that that is pretty common, and normal for siblings of different ages, and that there is nothing wrong with that, that it's just part of development. To me I agree, what I remember thinking when I made up the rules is something like "this will help me win, so I'm going to do it". The bullying that comes to mind, I had a friend when I was in grade 4 I think. My parents never liked her. But my friendship with her just feels to me like it happened, without my choice again. Just that she was around me, and therefore we were friends. The bullying, one example was something pretty awful that I don't want to write actually, but it was something this friend suggested that we do to my sister. I think she thought it would be funny. I don't remember how I felt. I don't think I thought it was funny. But it just felt like she suggested it, and so I would do it. So much of my childhood felt like this, like there were no decisions that I was making, that things were just kind of happening. I think when I was in junior high and high school is when I started feeling like I was making some choices, but even then I felt more like I was just making decisions as they came up. The first time I started really feeling like I was really making decisions was when I was 24, when my depression went away after a 3 month group procrastination workshop where CBT and other techniques were discussed. So, I know that I did these things. But I don't know how responsible I am. Certainly at least responsible enough that it is worth talking to my sister again about and apologizing, because I definitely regret that I did those things, and won't do them again (not that I can anymore). And talking about how it made her feel, about what she thinks about it now. But I definitely feel less responsible than Stefan feels his brother was in his childhood. This is one of the things that has been in the back of my mind for a few years that I don't know what the answer is.
LucasV Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 This podcast might hep shed some light on the topic. http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_232_Justice.mp3
LucasV Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 This one too! http://cdn.media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1665_origins_of_ethics_in_childhood.mp3 It is titled the origins of ethics in childhood. The previous one I posted was #232 Justice.
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