North Korea

[JeremiahofRed]

so, recently I've been doing a bit of research into North Korea, and what I've found has been rather disturbing.  These people are told stories of their great leaders from the time they are in elementary school(yes I know all too famliar, but on a much more direct level) and are bread with an innate hatred of America, and, even to the point where many of them believe they are stronger than the united states.  What really concerns me though, is that if America were to outright disband, we would leave south korea to fend for themselves, and I believe the mathematics of war are pretty clear there, north korea would decimate south korea without the US to back it.  The city of Seoul would be reduced to a "sea of fire"(their words not mine) and it would be a huge tragedy.  So I guess I just wanted to run this thought by other liberty minded folk.  It deeply concerns me, because I do believe liberty is in our grasp, but how do we walk away from a situation we are so strongly embedded in?  Right now the only reason we are in South Korea as far as I know is as a part of a continuing campaign to encircle China, posturing ourselves so that we would have air and naval bases on all sides  in the event of an all out war with China.  If America were to disband, would there be any reason left to continue our military aid in South Korea and if not, what would become of them.  

[dsayers]

how do we walk away from a situation we are so strongly embedded in?

 

I am not embedded in any such situation, so I would not be walking away from it in the event that the US disbanded. A select few psychopaths who believe that other people are theirs to send to their death put people someplace under a certain flag for reasons we can only speculate. How could anybody guess what happens next?

 

Plus, I think we would need more information. Like why did the US disband? Did it just run out of money and fizzle, did the enforcer class say "no more," did the general public wake up to self-ownership and objective morality? I think each one of these would have a different outcome. Not just as localized as the subject you're considering, but what other countries would do in a post US world. It could be that the rest of the world tells North Korea "no!" It could be that people all over the globe say that if the people of the US can take a principled stand, they can too.

 

For that matter, how would the psychopaths in question get away with any of the things they do if people focused more on their own self-knowledge and interpersonal relationship skills (the things they can actually control and are responsible for) instead of stuff like this that is well out of anybody's control? Especially when you consider that the former preempts the latter.

[Wuzzums]

What really concerns me though, is that if America were to outright disband, we would leave south korea to fend for themselves, and I believe the mathematics of war are pretty clear there, north korea would decimate south korea without the US to back it.

 

What are these mathematics you speak of exactly? I have different numbers. The elite North Korean soldier is on average about 1 foot shorter than the average South Korean soldier. This implies NK can barely feed its soldiers. The ONLY fat guy in the country is the dictator, they receive aid from all over the world without which they would starve to death. The poverty these people live in is shocking. South Korea has stronger soldiers, more soldiers, better weapons, more bullets, actual weapons of mass destruction, and gas to fuel their tanks.

 

But nevermind all of this, why would you just assume a war would break out of the US were to leave? In your own words you said NK's are bred with a deep hatred for the US, so what's the logic in attacking SK when the US is not even there? Don't forget that NK and SK were once a single country and they still have great sympathy for each other. I base this statement on the countless SK movies I've seen in which NK's are portrayed as fellow countrymen under an oppressive regime, and NK's efforts on unification with the South through peaceful means. Plus there's the "we need to liberate our fellow SK countrymen from the oppressive US occupation" type of propaganda. People cross the border from North to South regularly (illegally of course) but they always return because otherwise bad things will happen to those left behind. NKs have contact with the outside world, and they know they've been fed bs all their lives. A war between North and South without US involvement seems highly unlikely.

 

I understand NK present themselves as this superpower, and I also understand the US likes to present NK as a superpower and a threat but it's all propaganda on both sides. There are several covert filmings within NK that detail life outside Pyongyang, they paint a completely different picture than what you were told. Oh, and the punishment for such recordings, in which the regime is presented in an unfavorable light, is death. In this once clip, there was a bridge from which several bodies were hanged and left to rot. The guy filming said they were caught doing what he was doing right then, filming. Hitchens said that NK is not like "1984", NK is "1984".

[JeremiahofRed]

Well, in my opinion, the most likely scenario that will cause the US to disband will be math, our inability to maintain our dollar will be hastened by our inability to maintain a balanced national budget.  And yeah, I suppose on a personal level few people in America feel "embedded" in the cold war going on over in Korea, but, as a former soldier, as a friend to a south-korean american, it pains me to think of what would happen over there in the event that we left.  I believe America will handle itself, we have enough military hardware to be privatized that I don't see anyone even thinking about invading this country but, I have to completely and 100% part ways with you fundemnatally when you say "how would the psychopaths in question get away with any of the things they do if the people focused more on their own self-knowledge and interpersonal relationship skills"  its called programming, and here in America, most of us are subject to a VERY soft version of it, in our schools.  I'm sure there are those among them that question their teachings, but they either keep quiet, to survive, or they resist/run, and get shot.  Stockholm syndrome is a real thing, and we must consider that their entire country is suffering from this, general group think, and patriotism inspired by programming that starts in elementary school.  I guess my biggest fear about Libertarianism is illustrated by this right here.  If North Korea manages to take over south korea, it will be a demonstration to the entire world that evil is stronger than liberty.  can we then count ourselves safe here in America?  My heart goes out to these people who are raised from the time they are babies to the time they die thinking that America is evil.  There will always be those strong among us who can rise in the face of true tyranny but can we really expect that of each individual?  In my view it would take each individual acting as a hero or at least 50%+ of them to end the tyranny that is going on in North Korea.  

 

I know nobody has all the answers, but this is a serious problem I struggle with, in the free market, what will combat non-domestic tyranny, if the answer is no one, I feel that liberty is doomed to fail.  '

 

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe true liberty will so vastly outproduce the socialists and dictatorships of the world that it will just create a domino effect and nation after nation will make the switch to reap the benefits of a truly free society.... Idk, I feel like I'm rambling at this point, so I'll leave it for someone else's thoughts.  

What are these mathematics you speak of exactly? I have different numbers. The elite North Korean soldier is on average about 1 foot shorter than the average South Korean soldier. This implies NK can barely feed its soldiers. The ONLY fat guy in the country is the dictator, they receive aid from all over the world without which they would starve to death. The poverty these people live in is shocking. South Korea has stronger soldiers, more soldiers, better weapons, more bullets, actual weapons of mass destruction, and gas to fuel their tanks.

 

But nevermind all of this, why would you just assume a war would break out of the US were to leave? In your own words you said NK's are bred with a deep hatred for the US, so what's the logic in attacking SK when the US is not even there? Don't forget that NK and SK were once a single country and they still have great sympathy for each other. I base this statement on the countless SK movies I've seen in which NK's are portrayed as fellow countrymen under an oppressive regime, and NK's efforts on unification with the South through peaceful means. Plus there's the "we need to liberate our fellow SK countrymen from the oppressive US occupation" type of propaganda. People cross the border from North to South regularly (illegally of course) but they always return because otherwise bad things will happen to those left behind. NKs have contact with the outside world, and they know they've been fed bs all their lives. A war between North and South without US involvement seems highly unlikely.

 

I understand NK present themselves as this superpower, and I also understand the US likes to present NK as a superpower and a threat but it's all propaganda on both sides. There are several covert filmings within NK that detail life outside Pyongyang, they paint a completely different picture than what you were told. Oh, and the punishment for such recordings, in which the regime is presented in an unfavorable light, is death. In this once clip, there was a bridge from which several bodies were hanged and left to rot. The guy filming said they were caught doing what he was doing right then, filming. Hitchens said that NK is not like "1984", NK is "1984".

Ok your first paragraph is just wrong.  Maybe not 100% wrong, but to a large extent wrong.  The Korean People's Army(nk) has 1.1 Million Active duty with 8.2 Million reserve.  The Republic of Korea's Armed Forces(sk) has 639k active with 2.9 mil reserve.  That's a pretty vast difference.  That's about 2:1 nk to sk taking only active into consideration or close to 3:1 taking reserve into consideration.  Military analysts have often described the military situation in north korea as a "use it or lose it" situation for the north Koreans.  If they were to strike first, they could cripple the south koreans quickly, by taking direct strikes on their capital city of Seoul and military bases.  As for weapons of mass destruction?  We know that North Korea has nuclear weapons.  We also know that south Korea does not.  Therefore I think north korea has the edge there.  Alright moving on to the next paragraph. 

 

The north koreans have long talked about a unification with south korea.  They arn't just as you say trying to "liberate them from the US"  they are trying to unify Korea once again under one common flag.  So, with that in mind, the next logical question is, do the south koreans want to be a part of north korea, and I don't believe itwould be sane to argue that they do.  Therefore I believe it is pretty unavoidable that the north koreans would seek war with south korea if they felt they had the means to complete such a war.  they release videos periodically depicting their great war of unification which they predict will take no more than 3 days.  they also seem to have zero sympathy for the south koreans they will have to kill in the process, again the whole "sea of fire" thing.  

 

I'm not trying to argue here that North Koreans have it great or anything lol, therefore I don't understand the point of your final paragraph.  Of course people are being treated like slaves in order to feed their major cities.  Its very unfortunate, but sadly I can't shake this feeling that they are a threat to their south neighbors.  I could be entirely wrong, and I am open to hearing critiques to the arguments I have mentioned.  

[dsayers]

I've been torn with what to say in response or if to say anything at all. In the end, I've chosen to speak up since I voiced my concern on the subject of self-knowledge in your intro thread and you welcomed feedback while placing importance on self-knowledge.

 

I found much of your reply to me to be self-contradictory. For example, you spoke of programming, but continue to use the word "we" even after it was pointed out to you. You mention the domino effect at the national level, but rejected my encouragement to start a positive domino effect at the personal level. Everything you're saying is nationalistic. When you mentioned your friend, you didn't just say friend, you identified them by way of all the psychopaths that have claimed ownership over them.

 

Not that you NEED a reason to care for people. Which makes me wonder if you brought it up as if to suggest that people who don't know anybody over there cannot feel for them or understand that tyranny is wrong, or how serious the threat is. It's an appeal to emotion. I'm not saying this to devalue your emotions. I think they could be a powerful ally if you actually applied them instead of considering things you have no control over.

 

Take your opening sentence for example: "maintain our dollar" "our inability to maintain a balanced national budget." These aren't things you have any control over. You're not even talking about people at all, just saying "we" like that makes any sense. The psychopaths who claim ownership over you WANT you to be thinking on their terms, on their scale, on subjects you cannot influence. You're playing right into their hand. You're taking yourself out of the equation by looking past the aforementioned contradictions to focus instead on things you can't change.

 

You're talking about stopping aggression without making any effort to understand where aggression comes from. Do you think this is an approach that will result in meeting the goal you've set by making this thread? Do you think that North Korea and the US represent the entirety of the globe? Tyranny sucks and we're a long ways away from being rid of it entirely. The transition will come sooner if we focus on self-knowledge and our interpersonal relationships. Address the cause, not the symptom.

[Wuzzums]

The Korean People's Army(nk) has 1.1 Million Active duty with 8.2 Million reserve.  The Republic of Korea's Armed Forces(sk) has 639k active with 2.9 mil reserve.  That's a pretty vast difference.

 

As for weapons of mass destruction?  We know that North Korea has nuclear weapons.  We also know that south Korea does not.  Therefore I think north korea has the edge there.  Alright moving on to the next paragraph. 

 

The north koreans have long talked about a unification with south korea.  They arn't just as you say trying to "liberate them from the US"  they are trying to unify Korea once again under one common flag.  So, with that in mind, the next logical question is, do the south koreans want to be a part of north korea, and I don't believe itwould be sane to argue that they do.  Therefore I believe it is pretty unavoidable that the north koreans would seek war with south korea if they felt they had the means to complete such a war.  they release videos periodically depicting their great war of unification which they predict will take no more than 3 days.  they also seem to have zero sympathy for the south koreans they will have to kill in the process, again the whole "sea of fire" thing. 

 

North Korea has such a great army because of starvation. Joining the military is for most the only alternative to not starving to death (walking skeletons in uniform may look scary, sure). We do not know they have weapons of mass destruction. Not even they know if they have weapons of mass destruction. They're all bark and no bite. South Korea DOES have for certain weapons of mass destruction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_nuclear_research_programs#Nuclear_Capable_state

 

 

I'm not trying to argue here that North Koreans have it great or anything lol, therefore I don't understand the point of your final paragraph.  Of course people are being treated like slaves in order to feed their major cities.  Its very unfortunate, but sadly I can't shake this feeling that they are a threat to their south neighbors.  I could be entirely wrong, and I am open to hearing critiques to the arguments I have mentioned.  

No, what you're arguing for is US dominance over foreign countries because of imagined threats. This is how you sound like: "We must invade Iraq! Why? Because they might have weapons of mass destruction! Because they might be a danger to neighboring countries! Because they might harbor terrorists! Because they might be a threat to our freedomz! Wait, what?? Tiny starving soldiers in rags with out dated weapons said they can kick our ass? We'll have none of that, increase military funding and presence in South Korea, please!"

 

 

If North Korea manages to take over south korea, it will be a demonstration to the entire world that evil is stronger than liberty.  can we then count ourselves safe here in America?  My heart goes out to these people who are raised from the time they are babies to the time they die thinking that America is evil.

This made me actually laugh out loud. I can taste the irony.

 

Dude, firstly, I'm not american. Stop thinking that if someone speaks english then they're american. And yes, my american friend, you can count yourself safe in your country even if your ridiculous scenario does indeed unfold. Just pick up a map. Look where the US is on the map. Look where Korea is on the map.

 

Secondly... I dunno how to break this to you but... America IS evil. The US Government I mean. It commits frequents acts of genocide outside its borders, in puts a huge amount of its citizen in forced labor camps for ridiculous reasons, it steals food from your children's mouths, it murders in broad daylight people who do not conform, it is holding the whole world hostage through its constant threats of nuclear war, and it indoctrinates its young to the point where they cannot form a thought that's not some propaganda mantra.

[JeremiahofRed]

I've been torn with what to say in response or if to say anything at all. In the end, I've chosen to speak up since I voiced my concern on the subject of self-knowledge in your intro thread and you welcomed feedback while placing importance on self-knowledge.

 

I found much of your reply to me to be self-contradictory. For example, you spoke of programming, but continue to use the word "we" even after it was pointed out to you. You mention the domino effect at the national level, but rejected my encouragement to start a positive domino effect at the personal level. Everything you're saying is nationalistic. When you mentioned your friend, you didn't just say friend, you identified them by way of all the psychopaths that have claimed ownership over them.

 

Not that you NEED a reason to care for people. Which makes me wonder if you brought it up as if to suggest that people who don't know anybody over there cannot feel for them or understand that tyranny is wrong, or how serious the threat is. It's an appeal to emotion. I'm not saying this to devalue your emotions. I think they could be a powerful ally if you actually applied them instead of considering things you have no control over.

 

Take your opening sentence for example: "maintain our dollar" "our inability to maintain a balanced national budget." These aren't things you have any control over. You're not even talking about people at all, just saying "we" like that makes any sense. The psychopaths who claim ownership over you WANT you to be thinking on their terms, on their scale, on subjects you cannot influence. You're playing right into their hand. You're taking yourself out of the equation by looking past the aforementioned contradictions to focus instead on things you can't change.

 

You're talking about stopping aggression without making any effort to understand where aggression comes from. Do you think this is an approach that will result in meeting the goal you've set by making this thread? Do you think that North Korea and the US represent the entirety of the globe? Tyranny sucks and we're a long ways away from being rid of it entirely. The transition will come sooner if we focus on self-knowledge and our interpersonal relationships. Address the cause, not the symptom.

I don't believe the word "we" contradicts with anything.  "We" is just "I" plural.  I reviewed my post and I used the word referring to 'people who are contemplating this argument.' 

 

I furthermore do not understand the statement that it is a self contradiction for me to say that "maybe it will start a domino effect"  that was a very strong maybe.  We don't really know what would happen.  

 

And ok, referring to someone as a South Korean American, of course I referred to them by that, its the property that I was trying to discuss.  I could have just as easily said that she was born in Seoul so I suppose I could have chosen better words there, but if I didn't know the place of birth, the only way I could have made that statement would have been using her tax farm ID.

 

Ok, after some review, I can see why the choice of the word "our" was poor here.  But these things are not things that I'm trying to control, their things I don't want to be controlled, because this is how it ends, I'm pretty certain of that.  Its how Rome ended, I see no reason America will be different.  

 

The question I was trying to present there was, will self knowledge help a country who's internet is controlled and who's exposure to outsiders is also controlled.  

 

 

 

North Korea has such a great army because of starvation. Joining the military is for most the only alternative to not starving to death (walking skeletons in uniform may look scary, sure). We do not know they have weapons of mass destruction. Not even they know if they have weapons of mass destruction. They're all bark and no bite. South Korea DOES have for certain weapons of mass destruction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_nuclear_research_programs#Nuclear_Capable_state

 

 

No, what you're arguing for is US dominance over foreign countries because of imagined threats. This is how you sound like: "We must invade Iraq! Why? Because they might have weapons of mass destruction! Because they might be a danger to neighboring countries! Because they might harbor terrorists! Because they might be a threat to our freedomz! Wait, what?? Tiny starving soldiers in rags with out dated weapons said they can kick our ass? We'll have none of that, increase military funding and presence in South Korea, please!"

 

 

This made me actually laugh out loud. I can taste the irony.

 

Dude, firstly, I'm not american. Stop thinking that if someone speaks english then they're american. And yes, my american friend, you can count yourself safe in your country even if your ridiculous scenario does indeed unfold. Just pick up a map. Look where the US is on the map. Look where Korea is on the map.

 

Secondly... I dunno how to break this to you but... America IS evil. The US Government I mean. It commits frequents acts of genocide outside its borders, in puts a huge amount of its citizen in forced labor camps for ridiculous reasons, it steals food from your children's mouths, it murders in broad daylight people who do not conform, it is holding the whole world hostage through its constant threats of nuclear war, and it indoctrinates its young to the point where they cannot form a thought that's not some propaganda mantra.

There's really no substitute for experience when it comes to ballistics and that is what the North Korean's are attempting to gain and have been over the past decade or so.  They put a satellite in space(after 1 failure), they have been testing nukes for a while now.  We estimate that they have less than 10 nukes, but that's still enough to wipe a good portion of south korea out.  

 

Alright there seems to be a gross misunderstanding of what the word "we" means in this forum so let me lay it down for everyone:

  I and the rest of a group that includes me :  you and I :  you and I and another or others :  I and another or others not including you —used as pronoun of the first person plural 

IE just because I say "we" does not mean I am including you in my statement.  Ok moving on

 

ICBM's don't really care where you are on the map.  It is currently estimated that they could strike Hawaii or Alaska, their ballistics technology is only going to improve as technology tends to do.

 

Sure, America is evil, but here in America we arn't(usually) taken to concentration camps for saying otherwise.  Thought is able to run free and therefore people are given the freedom to believe whatever they want about their country, and others.  I guess what I'm starting to realize, is that the same things we were told about the Iraqi's going in, are the same things that people(north koreans) think about us.  

 

I don't know, maybe it is all overhyped.  Maybe I am a victim of yet another propaganda machine aimed at making Americans consider North Korea to be a threat, I just think its worth mentioning.  I don't believe the solution to tyrants will be self knowledge, I believe it will have to be some form of pro bono/charity defense agency.  I just don't see us developing one with any bite to it in the time between complete US disbandment and North Korean invasion of South Korea.  

 

Huh....just doing some research to tie this up and would you look at that.  Nothing to staple down my point but interesting none the less:

Evidently the North Koreans have opened their borders to south Korea, supposedly in response to the threats made by the UN to charge him with "crimes against humanity."  

 

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/korea-borders-open-to-allow-long-awaited-reunions-1.1698487