Help me bust some foo! - Toxic parent

[cobra2411]

Long time lurker, supporter and listener in need of a little help. Hope this is the appropriate place for this. 

 

The backstory... After my parent's long, drawn out divorce I bought the family house I grew up in. My father gave me his share of the settlement and I bought out my mother. The divorce was bitter to the end, my mother not agreeing with the settlement, appealing it, only to be forced to settle due to financial constraints. She has since maintained that she was cheated... 

 

I'm a single child who was adopted. My father, who passed away several years ago, was amazing as a person and father - I couldn't be luckier. My mother... A narcissistic sadist that knows how to get what she wants... Yeah, there's bitterness at the moment... Anyway, my father traveled for work and I was raised by my mother in typical north eastern close knit Italian style. 

 

Anyway, shortly after buying the house I let my mother move back in with me. She was financially destitute. She's the type that spends everything she has and more... At 26 and as an only child I was under the belief that it was my obligation to look after her. That's what family is for right? The house was big enough and she basically hid in her room. 

 

Well, time as it does slowly ticked by and now it's over 10 years later and the concept of helping my mother save for retirement has failed miserably. Two years ago my aunt passed away and I got to see all the behaviors that my mother uses on me get used on my cousins and it was seeing that which really opened my eyes. She's nice when it gets her what she wants, nasty and evil to badger you into submission, quick to point out flaws but explosive if you question her, etc. She's also very good at projecting her shortcomings on you. She really fits the description of boarder line personality to a tee. 

 

Anyway, being able to see the forest through the trees made me wake up and realize I wasn't an ungrateful, selfish, judgmental son, I was an emotional abuse victim. It was about 6 months later, after a bit of counseling that I finally got everything off my chest and asked that she move out. I was completely vulnerable with her and her first reaction was to verbally attack me - "I'll sue you if you even think of throwing me out!" and "I'm bringing my mother here, you may think you can throw me out, but can you throw out your 91yo grandmother??"

 

It was an uneasy time where I stood firm and resisted the urges to just scream at her. That was what I had grown up with, my parents started fighting when I was about 8 or so and it lasted though their separation, through the divorce and almost up to my father's death. Screaming is learned behavior - my true self doesn't believe in violence in any form. Anyway, we finally came around to an agreement that in 6 months, the end of the summer, she would find a place and move out. I was not charging her anything for living here, but to get her ready to live on her own and to help me out I asked she start paying me rent. At the end of the summer she simply said to me "you are 100% right, you're an adult, this is your house and you should be able to live your life as you wish.... But I'm comfortable here and don't want to leave, so I'm just going to keep paying you rent and simply stay here."

 

Shortly before that she had filed bankruptcy. I had found out that since she lived here so long I couldn't just tell her to leave I had to evict her and that if I didn't bend over backwards to help her a sympathetic judge could cause problems. Additionally, if she appealed it would take 3-6 months for the appeal process. So I was very familiar with what I had to do and what challenges I would face and with the bankruptcy I really couldn't do anything. So I let the comment pass without any acknowledgement. As of last month the bankruptcy is closed and discharged (ch7). 

 

In the interim, live has slowly returning to status quo... At least on the surface. I have decided that since the argument is over the house; at least on the surface - that's she's comfortable here, then the best thing is to remove the house from the equation. Additionally, in the last few years work has slowed down for me and it's getting harder and harder to make ends meet, even with the rent she's now paying me. Actually, almost all the rent goes to pay the cable bill ($300/mo). I don't watch TV and sometimes go months without turning it on. 2011 or 2012 I didn't even have the tv plugged in for the whole year. Anyway, I digress.... 

 

I've decided to move in with one of my cousins and sell the house. He just bought a house and needs help fixing it, so in exchange I'm going to stay and save money. Actually, I plan on going galt and simply earning what I need plus enough to save a little, so it'll be a welcome reduction in stress. I'm self employed and it's a constant struggle to stay busy these last few years. 

 

I'm at the point where I need to tell my mother that I'm selling the house and moving out. She in no way shape or form could afford the house on her own so giving it to her won't work. I simply don't want to fight about it. Last year I said everything I needed to say. I ended up going into verbal diarrhea and things came out that I didn't even know I was repressing. I physically ached afterwords... I'm dreading the attacks, the calls to initiate a fight, the drama. I had a dream the other night where we were driving and I told her and after she ridiculed me for being stupid and making bad decisions and trying to pass them off on her she very calmly looked at me and asked "so this is it?" to which I responded yes. She then proceeded to open the door and jump out of the moving car. 

 

She squandered every opportunity to save money and build a nest egg. "I might be dead tomorrow" was a common response to any question I had about what she was going to do about retirement. She's now retired, living on a fixed income, but nothing is stopping her from working. She's a very healthy (physically) 70yo woman. She makes enough to live on, but... She would have to change her lifestyle. I can hear it now, she is going to start singing the "what am I supposed to do, where am I supposed to go, what can I afford" song. If I challenge her as to whether I should be responsible she'll answer "no, absolutely not, I don't want you to feel that you have to worry about me... If I end up dead on the side of the road it will be in no way your fault..." 

 

She has her mother to go to. Actually, it would be best for both of them as my grandmother is 92 and is becoming like a slow moving 5 year old. She's beginning to be a threat to herself and should really have someone look after her. My mother is the only one in the family that is in a position to help as everyone else works. However, she doesn't want to live with her mother... "Nobody who's an adult wants to have to live with their mother..." Well, except me, I'm the bad guy for not wanting to live with her... 

 

 

So that's my story. I need to tell her but I'm afraid of the attacks and more specifically that I'm going to just explode. While I did get a lot of my repressed felling out there's still a lot of resentment there. I am a giving person who doesn't believe in violence. I will gladly give the shirt off my back for nothing more than a sincere smile. Yet she plays off that to get what she wants and walks all over me while preaching what family is supposed to do. I feel as though I'm being torn apart. On one side is who I feel I am and the other is who I'll end up being if my mother's influence remains. I don't like who I feel I'd become in that latter situation. 

 

So I'm up for idea's, constructive criticism, links to books, blogs, podcasts, etc worth listening to or reading. I'm thinking a letter would be best but I'm unsure exactly what to say. I don't want to blame her, but she's a big part of why I'm changing my life so drastically. 

 

Oh, and lastly I'm very fortunate that I have lots of support from both friends and family on this. With the exception of my grandmother who I suspect will side with my mother - it's where she gets her behavior, the worst reaction I've gotten was a 10 minute Q&A about if I was making the right decision. After that I was told I have full support. That was from my great uncle who is basically my grandfather. It's his sister who's my grandmother. 

 

Thanks and I hope it's ok that I rambled on... It was helpful just typing everything out, but I still would like to hear what other's say. 

 

David

[TheRobin]

I'm sorry to hear this was done to you and that this is the situation you're currently in.

 

One thing that I immediately noticed was you saying you couldn't be luckier with your father. You could be a lot luckier, if you had a father who chose a mother that was a genuinely nice and caring person instead of having a father who chose your mother and left you alone with her. That might also be where still some of the resentment lies. In parenting it's always both parents who are responsible, both for their own actions as well as the actions of the spouse (at least, when it comes to how the child is treated), cause it's each spouses full responsibility that the child is well and no harm is done to it, even more so if that harm comes from the other spouse, cause they chose to bring the other spoouse into the childs life. 

 

Other than that I don't know. I'd say if you don't feel like talking to your mother about selling the house, feel free to let her know in writing once you're gone if that's easier for you. You don't have to write anything in it you don't want of course. If you don't feel like giving an explanation then simply don't. From what you tell me I don't see any benefit to trying to explain yourself either, as your mother seems to not care about you and your feelings anyway, so what could you possibly gain from trying to explain yourself there?Anyway, I wish you the best of success for your future and hope you're going to come out allright and can get your own life on back on track to something you want instead of being a victim of your mothers crazy and your father's choice of wife.I hope this was of some help, eel free to let me know what you think ofc

[Iggy]

Thanks for the post, a difficult and intimate topic to share. I can relate to your story and would simply say its not wrong for you to feel angry - any thoughts of not being a nice person are likely echoes from your childhood conditioning designed to serve her interests. It sounds as though (understandably) you've still a lot of anger inside and doubt your right to feel or express it. If you were confident in knowing the injustice in the relationship and can look beyond the title 'mother' you might be less conflicted. So, if you can recognise the validity of your feelings you might be less subject to her manipulations and the propaganda of the past. Your problem seems more internal than external, and a lack of certainty is the real problem. Selling the house is a practical matter however involved, giving yourself permission is a psychological one. Good luck!

[cobra2411]

I'm sorry to hear this was done to you and that this is the situation you're currently in.

 

One thing that I immediately noticed was you saying you couldn't be luckier with your father. You could be a lot luckier, if you had a father who chose a mother that was a genuinely nice and caring person instead of having a father who chose your mother and left you alone with her. That might also be where still some of the resentment lies. In parenting it's always both parents who are responsible, both for their own actions as well as the actions of the spouse (at least, when it comes to how the child is treated), cause it's each spouses full responsibility that the child is well and no harm is done to it, even more so if that harm comes from the other spouse, cause they chose to bring the other spoouse into the childs life. 

 

Other than that I don't know. I'd say if you don't feel like talking to your mother about selling the house, feel free to let her know in writing once you're gone if that's easier for you. You don't have to write anything in it you don't want of course. If you don't feel like giving an explanation then simply don't. From what you tell me I don't see any benefit to trying to explain yourself either, as your mother seems to not care about you and your feelings anyway, so what could you possibly gain from trying to explain yourself there?Anyway, I wish you the best of success for your future and hope you're going to come out allright and can get your own life on back on track to something you want instead of being a victim of your mothers crazy and your father's choice of wife.I hope this was of some help, eel free to let me know what you think ofc

 

Thanks for the input. My parents where high school sweethearts and were married at 19. I didn't come along till they were 33 or so... Looking back I suspect that he went though the same thing I'm going though and while he did try and warn me he was also big on allowing me to live my life even if I was making a mistake; well within reason. Then he'd be there when I needed help and we'd talk about what happened and he'd give all the help he could - again, within reason. Was he perfect? Probably not but without him to balance things out who knows where I would have been. So I feel it's better he was in my life than not. If that makes any sense. 

 

Life with my mother wasn't all bad, I'm just bitter that it's come to this. Also, now that I see the manipulation for what it is I'm left re-evaluating my life wondering what's real, what's manipulation. Was my mother nice to me in such and such situation because she loved me or because it benefited her... 

 

Thanks for the post, a difficult and intimate topic to share. I can relate to your story and would simply say its not wrong for you to feel angry - any thoughts of not being a nice person are likely echoes from your childhood conditioning designed to serve her interests. It sounds as though (understandably) you've still a lot of anger inside and doubt your right to feel or express it. If you were confident in knowing the injustice in the relationship and can look beyond the title 'mother' you might be less conflicted. So, if you can recognise the validity of your feelings you might be less subject to her manipulations and the propaganda of the past. Your problem seems more internal than external, and a lack of certainty is the real problem. Selling the house is a practical matter however involved, giving yourself permission is a psychological one. Good luck!

 

Yeah, my problem is internal, that is a very good insight. I can see the changes that I've made over the last year and I hope that in time I'll be able to deprogram myself. There are years of conditioning on her part to make me feel that being angry at her for the situation makes me the bad guy. There's more to it than that however. The use of anger is a way that she manipulates people into doing what she wants - she simply beats them into submission. There's a fuzzy fine line between the initiation of violence and defending yourself and I find it completely abhorrent to initiate violence either physically or emotionally. I know that being angry at a bad situation doesn't make me an angry person - I just have to integrate that into who I am. And that in and of itself makes me angry because I can remember back to a boy who was bold and courageous before my father left and before my mother turned her sights on me. A lot of that is left but it's fragmented and broken in areas.

 

I'm at the point where I have to sever the relationship. I am unable to heal any further till I am away from this situation yet there is some apprehension of the unknown future ahead - I am making a big change in my life, and there is a loathing feeling about what theatrics and drama will come. When I confronted her last year I told her I felt like she was attacking me for no cause. She responded that she felt as though I was drifting away from her. When I questioned that it didn't make sense to attack someone who you felt you were losing her response was "I wanted to get you before you got me..."

 

I think I'm going to rally the troops one day and simply empty my belongings from the house one day and leave. Then I'll give her a letter explaining my decision and I'll give her a timeline for leaving and it will be on her.

[fractional slacker]

Sorry to hear you landed on earth with a female owner like the one you have described. Reality is she's not your owner, but it sounds like that is how she has treated you.

Gonig against the instiutions of culture and family is not for the faint of heart as you already know. If you haven't already, consider seeing a therapist. That is an effective way of processing the radiation you are and will be exposed to should you choose to split the atomic mythological bonds of family.

Thank you for sharing your story. I hope you keep us updated.

BTW, podcast 311 'Mother, Part I' is one of my favorites.

[dsayers]

Hey, cobra. Just read your story. When I got to the part about you selling the house, I thought that was some really creative problem solving there Thank you for sharing your story and I'm very sorry you are made to suffer in this way. It sounds as if you've always had to be more mature than the people who are supposed to model maturity for you. How old were you when they adopted you?

 

If I understand rightly, you've spoken with her honestly about your feeling in regards to the way she treats you, to the point of saying things you didn't realize you were repressing. At which point, she made it clear that nothing's going to change and that in fact she's going to continue using you for her own benefit. That's clarity for you. That's closure. Yet you still feel resentment, which means something remains unprocessed.

 

It could be argued that it is simply the fact that you're still in this situation, and that might be the case. However, I have another idea. Robin said exactly what I was going to after I first started reading your story. You've rejected his input, saying that your life is better with your father having been in it. You also said that your mother isn't all bad. How do these things matter?

 

In regards to your mother, how does the fact that she's not abusive when she's not abusive change the fact that she's abusive when she's abusive? How can you know if your life is better having had your father in it if not having him in it might mean you didn't have her in it? As you describe it, he traveled for work, so wasn't there despite deciding to adopt a child. I'm not saying he's a bad person, but if you recognize your mother's abuse and don't recognize your father's culpability, this might be why you continue to experience resentment despite having done all you can to repair the damage she's done.

 

This is obviously very important to you and being under your roof, is something you cannot escape on a daily basis. If it hasn't already, this is going to lead to physical suffering in addition to the mental and emotional. I encourage you to be honest with yourself as to the nature of your father's involvement in your mother's abuse of you even after he died.

[cobra2411]

Lots of great points. I'm mobile right now, but I at least wanted to touch on a few things.Resentment may a little strong, the biggest issue is that I feel stuck. That's temporary. I'm sure there are some distortions in my life due to this but to discover and fix them I need my mother out of my life. The weather hasn't been helping...Yes, I have experienced physical issues from the stress. Actually, when I got everything off my chest I physically ached afterwards. Yes, I've seen a therapist. I was adopted when I was days old. Yes my father traveled a lot, but he did have summers off and I did get to see him a lot. He was big on letting me live my own life. He was always there with advice, sometimes more forceful than others, but he believed that the only way I was going to grow up was to make my own choices and live with the results. He did warn me not to let my mother move in with me. I didn't listen because, after all, good children take care of their parents... He wasn't perfect, but I'm still glad he was in my life. As far as saying it wasn't all bad with my mother, I guess that's old programming kicking in. After all, she can't be the bad one right? - Sarcasm. I'll post more later,

[cobra2411]

Wow, powerful stuff in that 311 podcast. It's on my phone and I will be listening to it via bluetooth as I drive. 

 

Back to my father and whether or not I'd be happier with other parents all together. That's a tough one as I kind of know how that would have turned out. See, the doctor who delivered me and was instrumental in my parents adopting me almost became my father. His wife wanted a son; they had two adopted daughters. The doctor argued that my parents had no children and she relented. However, till I was about 16 or so my family would visit them on vacation and spend a few days with them. So I know I would have two older sisters, I know the house I would have grown up in, I know who my parents would have been, etc. However, a couple days a year hardly is enough to base a alternate lifetime on... It was an interesting experience however... 

 

Overall, despite the issues I'm having I'm very happy with who I've turned out to be. I know this issue is temporary and I feel I will be a much better person for getting through it. There are so many times I see my father coming through me and I really feel good about myself when I am that way. He wasn't perfect however, I can't really thing of anything that he could have done differently. Sure, as an adult I can think of a few things but trying to put myself back into who I was as a child / young adult, deep under my mothers spell I can see how she could have used that to pit me against my father. He came from a pretty crappy childhood and definitely didn't have the resources to deal with someone like my mother in regards with what was best for me. I don't think he fully understood what my mother was doing to me and what it was doing to my life, otherwise I suspect he would have been more forceful. While they fought and he saw her for who she was, the played the loving mother that would stop at nothing for her son... Tough one, but I really don't feel there's any resentment or hard feelings there. 

 

So we're back to the fact that I am happy overall with who I am. Sure, there are distortions in my life - how could there not be when I'm parent, spouse and child all rolled into one and dealing with someone who's idea of compromise is give me everything I want. I have a hard time blaming her for those distortions in my life because any time I would say something I get the "Sure, I say one wrong thing and it's all my fault now..." line. As Stefan said in 311, it's not an exaggeration if they actually did it. I have known for a little while that I in fact don't owe my mother squat, but there was always a piece I felt was missing. Stefan once again hit it on the head when he talked about value for value exchange - I'm simply not receiving any value from this relationship. Sure there may be a laugh here or there but it is decidedly one sided. That revelation has really helped me because my mother, when we have a dispute, is fond of saying "you don't remember the good times, all you want to do is focus on the few bad times and make a monster out of me." Also, I use the word dispute loosely; what I really mean is when I stand up for myself and she isn't getting her way. So yes, there could have been lots of great times, great memories, great laughs, etc in the past but that doesn't change the fact that now, today, this minute there is no value for me to continue in this relationship. 

 

One fortunate thing that I do have going for me is that almost all of my friends and family are supportive of what I'm doing. The only one really is my 92yo grandmother - my mother's mother. When I first asked my mother to leave and we were fighting I was supposed to go to dinner at my cousin's house. It was a last minute thing, we were going to talk about a vacation we were going on and simply to get away from the situation for a little. My grandmother was there and when she found out I was coming she said "Hmmph. I don't know why you had to invite him... I will not listen to him talk badly about my daughter..." My cousin looked at her and said "Well, you don't have to worry about that now - I just lost my appetite; dinner is canceled so you can go home now." Most of them knew my mother was a pain, but they didn't know just how abusive she was/is. They fully support me but they also feel sympathy for my mother who has basically squandered her life away and has alienated most of the people she knows. 

 

I guess the biggest thing I'm worried about is the fireworks when I tell her. I expect nothing less than a 50 kiloton blast and I'm nervous about touching off so much high explosives... I fully expect the personal attacks, I've done everything to isolate and prepare my GF for the attacks on her including the accusations that my GF is controlling me and pitting my against my mother...  I also expect the suicide threats with vague hints that it may be all my fault. I just don't see a way that I can stay away from ground zero given that we live together and she's home all the time. Any attempt to start moving will trigger questions which will trigger the discussion and fireworks. I'm thinking it may be a good idea to have someone with me when I confront her.

 

Oh, and selling the house was the therapist's idea; one that I was very resistant to at first. In the end it seems to remove the item of contention - that she is simply comfortable here, and it puts a sense of urgency under everything. This IS happening; I'm not just having a bad day and venting... It's good for me too as it's making it very real for me too. I don't know that I could continue to stand up to her and force her out and not let her back into my life living where I'm at now - too many habits... 

[dsayers]

I can't really thing of anything that he could have done differently. ... I don't think he fully understood what my mother was doing to me and what it was doing to my life

 

He could've chosen a different partner. He could've chosen to not have children with such an abusive person. If he didn't know it was going on, this would be worse. Because it would mean that either he was away or he was cavalier about exposing children to destructive people.

 

Please look at most of what you're saying. Things like there were good times, he didn't know, it could've been worse, etc. None of this changes the fact of the bad times, that it was their responsibility, and it was supposed to be healthy.

 

And now, you've mentioned being a parent yourself, which makes this discussion 10x as important. This is because whatever excuse you make for others, you will allow for yourself.

[cobra2411]

Sorry, I was referring to being a parent to my parent. I'm the magical mystical glue that holds my mother together; or something like that as Stefan put it. I don't have children. 

 

My mother's behavior and dependence on me really only got bad when her sister died. Sure, looking back I recognize now that it was always there, but I had school or a job or an apartment or something else to distract me. When she started living with me she worked and hid in her room. Most times we saw very little of each other. It wasn't until her sister got cancer and less than a year later died. Her abuse was always there but it was lost in the fog of family obligation and the distractions of life. 

 

I don't know when my father understood and accepted who he truly married but I doubt he would have said "Hey, I'm married to a psycho, lets raise a child..." Knowing him like I did I don't see how he would have intentionally introduced me to an abusive relationship. I believe he felt that they were a normal couple and that normal couples have children and that's why he adopted me. Am I supposed to blame him or find fault with him for doing what he thought was normal? That's all he knew. He was acting on his highest values. Everything I've heard from family and friends about how they were when I was born and before was that they were a fun loving couple that were great to be around. If anything the problems with my mother started shortly after my grandfather died when I was young. He was a drunk and abusive and I strongly suspect there are long unresolved issues there. 

 

After he left my mother and they divorced he did tell me a few times to get away from her and he did tell me not to let her move in. Like I said, I was under the fog of obligation to the family and I downplayed the abuse and ignored his advice. Should I blame him for not tying me up and locking me in a room to keep me away from her? At the time I probably would have resented it and it would have been a perfect in for my mother to alienate me from my father. If he were still alive today and I told him how bothered I was by all that was going on he would be on the first plane here. 

 

I remember a story of when I was visiting him when I was about 14 or 15. He had a hot blond so-cal girlfriend and we all were out to dinner. She was cozying up to him and she whispered something about ditching me so the two of them could go have some fun. He looked right at her and said "he's my son and I will not abandon him. He's going home in a week and if you can't wait then you should go home right now." And by go home he meant forever. I can only imagine how upset he would have been if he really knew the abuse I was subject too. What I went through when he was alive pales in comparison with what is going on over the last 2-3 years. Yes, it's all abuse and I understand that now, but years ago I thought I was just a brat kid who couldn't think of other people's feelings. 

 

I don't know if I'm supposed to feel anything negative about my father, but I don't. I've given it some deep thought over the last few days and it's not there. Hell, I don't even care about what my mother did beyond the fact that it's still ongoing. Ok, I do care, it was wrong but it's not keeping me up at night. I just want it to stop. There is some resentment that I have to throw my whole life into upheaval to get rid of her, but even that's fading. I have a place to go, I'm looking forward to it, I have a great girlfriend and lots of great friends. Once my mother's out of my life the only thing I'm going to think about is reminding myself never to let her back into my life unless it's clear that she's done a LOT of work to improve our relationship. At 70 years old I'm not holding my breath waiting for her. 

[dsayers]

I don't know when my father understood and accepted who he truly married but I doubt he would have said "Hey, I'm married to a psycho, lets raise a child..." Knowing him like I did I don't see how he would have intentionally introduced me to an abusive relationship. I believe he felt that they were a normal couple and that normal couples have children and that's why he adopted me. Am I supposed to blame him or find fault with him for doing what he thought was normal? That's all he knew. He was acting on his highest values.

 

Did that value include getting behind the wheel of a car without any understanding of how to operate it? If he did this and crashed into somebody, is he not accountable because he didn't learn how to responsibly operate something that has the very real possibility (and historical reality) of causing large amounts of property damage and ending human lives?

 

He had no business getting married if he didn't know the person he was marrying. He had no business having a child if he didn't know how to parent, which includes things like being there and choosing a partner that won't abuse their child. That you were adopted makes this worse because we know this wasn't a backseat fumbling that went the wrong way for them.

 

I'm not saying that he was a horrible person. But you will never evade the resentment you feel if you do not process it. Processing it includes being honest about the reality of your situation. You will continue to recreate this abuse in your life until such a time you are able to identify it, which requires calling things by their proper names.

 

Sorry, but ignorance isn't an escape. Hitler had parents. We know that parenting wrong can have serious consequences on THE WORLD. Getting behind the wheel of that car unprepared is negligence and doesn't make the person any less accountable for the outcome of that poor decision.

 

I ask that you take a moment to just consider the possibility that what I'm saying is accurate. While open to that possibility, re-read your replies to this idea and see if you can identify the ways you've tried to avoid, redefine, or offset this knowledge. Your mother was in your life in part because of his decisions. This is true even if you have fond memories of him, even if he did what he thought was best, and so on. Hey, you asked for help busting some foo

[cobra2411]

Last I checked my mother didn't have horns, wings and think red leathery skin. I can see questioning someone for bringing in a child to an obviously flawed relationship but I don't feel it's that simple here. At the core is the socialistic idea of family. That idea where the needs of the many; family, outweigh the needs of the few or the one seems to be very strong with Italians. I would do anything for you so it's only right that you should do anything for me - that's what family does for each other. You bring up driving a car; how many 16 year olds with new driver's licenses are fully qualified to handle every situation we have on the road? Are love struck high school sweethearts supposed to know all the complexities that relationships can have? I think you're being a bit unrealistic in your criticism and bringing up Hitler just screams of argument from emotion. 

 

I am unable to convey my lifetime with my parents in full detail in a few posts. The relationship with my father grew into us becoming best friends. I know him exceedingly well and we had a very open relationship where we could talk about anything. I never confronted him about my mother because at the time I didn't feel that it was bad. Again, I was raised with the idea that we all do what we can to support family. Since my father has passed away I can't have that conversation with him but I know in my heart that if he were alive and I confronted him with this and said I felt he was a bad parent and a bad person for adopting me into a family with a manipulative and abusive parent he would have done everything within his power to make it right. It would become his life's mission to repair the damage as best he could. He very much believed in letting me live my own life and make my own choices, particularly as an adult, but he was always there for me no matter what. If he told me I was making a mistake and I did it anyway he never held it over my head. Sure, I had to bear the responsibility for my action but he was beside me the whole time. I also know he would take responsibility for his mistakes. 

 

Maybe he made a mistake and is culpable for where I am, maybe he was under my mother's spell, I don't know but I'm not bothered because I know in my heart that he would have stopped at nothing to make it right if he knew how much pain it's causing me now. I am as certain of that as I am that I need my next breath of air to survive. My mother's manipulation was very subtle and until her sister died I really wasn't aware that it was wrong. She's family and we have to look after family and we're no good if we don't... Her sister's death has opened up unhealed wounds from her past, along with the idea that she was now going to be alone in her old age, so the easiest option for her was to take further advantage of our relationship and find comfort there. With the exception of my grandmother, my extended family, once I was fully vulnerable with them and let them know how I was feeling and the issues I was having with my mother, they've all stood behind me and made it clear how sorry they were for what has happened and that they were committed to supporting me though this. My aunt who passed away believed that a strong family was the best thing in the world and that while disputes would happen you just smooth them over and she was acting on her highest value. I feel however, if I was completely vulnerable with her she would support me. My grandmother is a lost cause and even more toxic than my mother and I'm thankful that my parents kept me away from her when I was a child. I suspect she is the root of many of my mother's issues and it may even go back to my great grandmother who was straight off the boat Italian/American. She came here as a young adult and from what I hear was exceptionally toxic to be around. 

 

So in the end my family may have been guilty of putting me into this situation and not getting me out but I can't see where anyone was acting to maliciously to intentionally harm me. Harm was done whether it was intentional or not, that's not in dispute, but I find it very easy to forgive and forget because I'm dealing with people that believed their highest value was to sacrifice themselves to family and they were acting on that. Once confronted they wanted to do what they could to make things right. My mother and grandmother are the only two that will deny blame and reject any notion of restitution for their actions. Those are the people that I'm cutting out of my life. 

 

These questions are helpful for me as they are making me really thing and evaluate what has gone on in my life. I can not find anything that leaves me with resentment for anything my father did. Since I can't change anything that has happened it comes down to what can be done to make things right. In the case of my father he's no longer here so the only thing I have is my knowledge of who he was as a person and I know for a fact without any doubt in my mind that without hesitation he would do whatever he needed to in order to make things right. To me it's not about the mistakes that were made but what is done about those mistakes. 

 

Thank you for helping me focus on this and really look deep and hard into my past to see what's there and not there. Between the posts here and podcast 311 it's helped me formulate a plan for confronting my mother and it's really given me a clarity on my feelings about past, present and future and what my real feelings are. Typing all this out is also helpful as there's an evolution of though where things start to come together and make much more sense. 

[dsayers]

Last I checked my mother didn't have horns, wings and think red leathery skin.

 

I reject your claim that one must have horns, wings, and thick red leathery skin in order to be capable of evil.

 

see if you can identify the ways you've tried to avoid, redefine, or offset this knowledge

[J-William]

You use the phrase "Toxic parents" have you  read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward?  http://www.amazon.com/Toxic-Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Reclaiming/dp/0553381407

 

It might be helpful to give it a read.

 

I think dsayers has been doing yeoman's work in this thread and I'm afraid he hasn't accomplished much. I don't think you have to hate your dad (what good would it do anyway? He's not around anymore) but you have to accept that he made some very poor decisions and did things that were very harmful to you.

 

Your story about your father doesn't make sense at all. You say he was a good man/father, but he's got a pretty girl on his arm who didn't understand how important his son was to him. The story doesn't make sense, if you were important he would have lived closer so that he could see you for more than a few weeks, and he would have mentioned how important you are and she would have known that ahead of time. 

Also, if he was as good as you say, he could have found a job for which he didn't travel as much. I know how much my daughter misses me when I'm gone for a few hours let alone gone for days or weeks.

[cobra2411]

 

 

I don't think you have to hate your dad (what good would it do anyway? He's not around anymore) but you have to accept that he made some very poor decisions and did things that were very harmful to you.

Ok, then what? 

 

For me it comes down to what I believe he would have done once I confronted him. I believe he would have done everything he could to make amends. Since he's gone that's all I have. 

 

Your story about your father doesn't make sense at all. You say he was a good man/father, but he's got a pretty girl on his arm who didn't understand how important his son was to him. The story doesn't make sense, if you were important he would have lived closer so that he could see you for more than a few weeks, and he would have mentioned how important you are and she would have known that ahead of time. 

Also, if he was as good as you say, he could have found a job for which he didn't travel as much. I know how much my daughter misses me when I'm gone for a few hours let alone gone for days or weeks.

 

He was involved in professional sports, not as a player though, so for what he earned only having a high school degree there is no other field of work he could have done. Not without a major change in lifestyle for all of us. Also, since he wanted to be a pro player it was as close as he could get to his dream job. By the time I was 25 I had over 350k air miles traveling with him, both work related and personal. Since I benefited from that greatly I wouldn't want him to change what he did. I used a free ticket one time to go visit him by surprise and he broke down in tears he was so happy to see me. So I know he missed me as much as I missed him. Got no problems with his job or the time he spend with me because the time he did spend with me was quality time. Beats a dad who sat on the couch drinking beer all the time...

 

Now with my mother; you confront her and she'll tell you with tears in her eyes that I am the most important thing to her, more than life itself. I don't feel it's a stretch for him to believe that even though his relationship with my mother had major trouble, that my relationship with her could have been ok. Also, I believed that everything was normal so I didn't say anything. Now if you're referring to his one girlfriend after my parents split up, she wasn't questioning how close we were, she just felt that I would be ok spending the night home alone. 

 

 

 

see if you can identify the ways you've tried to avoid, redefine, or offset this knowledge

If my father was alive I would call him up and get to the bottom of it. Since he's not, I have to make assumptions based on what I know of him. If my mother was an evil nasty person he would never have adopted me, he would have told her to pound sand. I know they had been trying to have kids and maybe he thought getting me would alleviate tension in the relationship. It's my understanding that the relationship didn't start to sour till after my mother's father died, which was after I was born. Lets assume he did know things were bad and he brought me into the relationship thinking it would fix things and it didn't. Then he left me here because with his job it would have been difficult or impossible to raise me. If he were alive and I confronted him about it and told him that I was deeply hurt by that he would apologize profusely and try to do everything he could to make up for it. I then would have forgiven him and we would have gotten on with our lives.

 

Am I making excuses for my upbringing? I'm not sure. I didn't know how to rectify that I had a decent childhood despite the abuse so that lends itself to the comment "it wasn't all that bad". Because well, it wasn't. That's actually one of my mother's favorite lines when I try to confront her "Don't you remember all the good times we had? Or do you just want to focus on the bad to make me look like a monster." That doesn't negate the abuse but I didn't bear the brunt of it when I was younger. So now I know it's ok that I had a good childhood despite the abuse. Like I said, the abuse grew gradually, or at least that's how it feels to me. After my parents split most of my mother's venom was directed toward my father and the worst I got was having to listen to her curse him despite telling her not to do that in front of me. At least that's what sticks in my mind. I was at ground zero for that and after confronting both of them my father never said another word to me that was really intended for my mother and if she started fighting he would leave, many times taking me with me. My mother would always give me a laundry list of things to tell my father when I saw him. He would give me the same talk about how I should close my ears or leave the room and eventually I stopped getting the verbal laundry list and simply got an envelope to deliver. 

 

It wasn't till about 3 years ago or so, when my Aunt was diagnosed with cancer that the monster really came out. That's when my mother started with the comments like the one above, or a snotty look followed up with "you don't care about me, why should I give a *fudge* about you?" Or the more subtle comments about say my GF at the time "She's not right for you, I can't believe you would even date someone like that. Or "I know you better than you know yourself" followed by some attempt to program me with something. It really was in the last three years. Prior to that it was mainly against my father and there was some "family is everything, I'd do anything for you, so you should do anything for me." But not much else. 

 

Anyway, my father could have made all the mistakes in the world and I have full faith that if I confronted him about them he would have done everything he could to make them right. So I forgive him for any wrong doings he may have done in this regard, not because I don't want to acknowledge it but because I know if I did he would fix it. 

[dsayers]

For me it comes down to what I believe he would have done once I confronted him.

 

No! Being honest about it (which you're not) would empower YOU. You'd be reinforcing your ability to face truth when it is uncomfortable. You'd have an easier time avoiding making the same mistakes in your life and avoiding/helping others that do it, and you'd help your subconscious by not having to try and make you face it.

 

Anyway, my father could have made all the mistakes in the world and I have full faith that if I confronted him about them he would have done everything he could to make them right. So I forgive him for any wrong doings he may have done in this regard, not because I don't want to acknowledge it but because I know if I did he would fix it. 

 

No! If you forgave him his every indiscretion based on your flawed belief that he was infallible, you would not have created this thread. You created this thread because vestiges of his decisions have very real impact on your life even today. This is the honesty you're putting so much effort into avoiding. EVERYTHING you can say about one parent being in your life, the other parent is accountable for as well by making that choice as a partner and especially as in having children.

 

And you're avoiding that you're avoiding it. That's a lot more typing while still pretending that you didn't go to such a ridiculous length as to claim somebody has to look like a cartoon devil before we can consider their behaviors evil.