Three Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I was wondering if anyone had insight or knew of any sources of information about this topic? I have a history of cheating on women or choosing partners who cheat on me. My father cheated on my mother twice as far as I know. My initial thoughts are that is a way to act out unprocessed feelings of aggression and hatred towards the parent of the opposite sex, to normalize the behavior of the other parent or to restore one's sense on self efficacy who has been deeply humiliated. There are obviously many ways in which a person can be aggressive and abusive towards his or her romantic partner. But why do some people choose infidelity specifically and others don't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I wonder if actually it has more to do with wanting to connection with the opposite sex than with wanting to hurt them, since a common excuse that people use is to say that they weren't getting enough time or affection from their partners, and also the actual act of having sex is super intimate. Wanting to be desired and having some kind of evidence that we are desired since we got someone else to have sex with us. And also because I often hear that people cheat but feel super guilty doing it, before, during and after. When I think of someone who had an affair, I think it's kind of sad. I recognize it as a pretty significant betrayal, but for whatever reason, I don't think of it as hateful. I imagine that person is sad inside and wanting to fill a void (and literally if you're a woman, haha). I wonder if the resentment is just an excuse. It sure is an effective one. I've never cheated, but both of my parents cheated on each other. I don't remember if it was ever actually stated, but for some reason I have stories in my head about why they both did it, and the story involves feeling alone and grieving. I imagine that the origin has something to do with having people around you and yet ironically feeling alone and isolated despite that, since that's both the precipitating event and the result of cheating. You feel alone driving you to cheat, and then you make your partner feel that loneliness through the betrayal. And also because that happens to kids pretty often that they have lots of people around them and yet no one is connecting with them. And that would make me pretty bitter and even vengeful. I don't really have any experience with it and haven't done any research, so I could be entirely off-base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greekredemption Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Perhaps it's because infidelity, particularly in men, confers an evolutionary advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotDarkYet Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 @greekredemption. Remember we're talking ought, not is. The physical desire IS innate. But the OPs question is - what in childhood would allow men to ACT on the physical desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greekredemption Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 @greekredemption. Remember we're talking ought, not is.The physical desire IS innate. But the OPs question is - what in childhood would allow men to ACT on the physical desire.I think the question itself is begging the question. And it doesn't seem as if the question is itself an ought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viam Fec Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Well, from my perspective the "social contract" was broken early on in life. It has nothing to do with hurting people, more to do with nobody owes me anything and I do not owe anyone anything either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotDarkYet Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 @greekredemption How is the question assuming its answer? Maybe I'm missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Clarke Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Infidelity may be a result of a lack of honest communication about one's thoughts in an environment where one expects to be attacked physically or mentally in response to honesty. What I mean is, if you had a loving, honest relationship, why did you not tell the person that you were interested in starting a relationship with the other woman? I would think that emotional pain was not something that is dealt with while you were were growing up, or you were attacked for expressing emotions or feelings. Perhaps any attempt to deal with emotions and feelings were shut down by parents who generally wanted you to stay quiet so that they would not have to deal with emotions ("calm done", "stop crying", "how about we watch TV or play a game to take your mind off of it"). However, when you do not process your thoughts and feelings with others due to fear of attack or neglect, then you start rationalizing and normalizing deception to avoid attack. When you have honest conversation in a truly and loving non-violent relationship, even when topics are hard, the pressure in your mind goes down, and it does not activate the flight-or-fight mechanism. Recognize that you have probably have never seen a relationship where two people are totally curious and nice to each other, even through hard, painful topics. Your model (father) for how a relationship works with a woman is that honesty is not required for the relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greekredemption Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 @greekredemption How is the question assuming its answer? Maybe I'm missing something. It assumes there is indeed a childhood origin of infidelity. Which there may not be. In hindsight my answer gave only the ultimate cause for infidelity. I suppose what the OP wants is a more proximate cause (of which there are no doubt many and varied reasons). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Perhaps it's because infidelity, particularly in men, confers an evolutionary advantage. This doesn't explain why there is gender symmetry in infidelity. Infidelity strongly correlates with chronic depression. And chronic depression is widely considered to have roots in childhood. And self destructive behavior, such as potentially blowing up a stable marriage or long term relationship is something that begs for a psychological explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aya Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 But why do some people choose infidelity specifically and others don't? may be it's in our nature to be sexually free?making love is not having sex, some can be in a loving healthy relationship & have sex outside that relationship & 99% of those couples stay together. every single person in a relationship now has sexual thoughts about someone other than their partner. I could never be in a relationship where I'm physically bound to just 1 man! yes It's okay for the 1st 8 - 12 months, but the idea of another entity having that level of ownership over my body is...harrowing to me, I don't sleep around but I am free! can you imagine being in a loving relationship with a partner' & having no pressures RE fidelity.... bliss!as long as its safe (obviously) & mutually consensual there is no harm live life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 may be it's in our nature to be sexually free? This ignores the fact that humans have an upper brain and are capable of reason. the idea of another entity having that level of ownership over my body is...harrowing to me, I don't sleep around but I am free! This is like me saying that because I live in the US, I am free. Even though I cannot choose to step outside that very large cage on a whim. What I'm saying is that what you call being free actually prevents you from reaching a deeper love, trust, and commitment with another person. That may appear to be freedom on a smaller scale, but in the big picture, it is a cage. Also, if I said somebody could borrow my car, it wouldn't be accurate to describe not being able to lend my car to another person at that time as the person I lent it to having ownership over my car. Their relationship with my car is one I voluntarily entered into. If you're sharing your body with one person and then share it with another, you could catch something that would effect the first person. Are you in touch with what from your childhood has led you to the conclusion that monogamy is bad or an enslavement of you? Being against it is one thing, but describing it as somebody else owning your body is the mark of trauma in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aya Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I do see what your saying about reaching a deeper level of love & trust but realize I'm way past that, I trust everyone automatically 100% love is an emotion, emotions are only ideas. *Are you in touch with what from your childhood has led you to the conclusion that monogamy is bad or an enslavement of you? *I don't think monogamy is bad for me.why do you assume the way I think now is down to something from my childhood ? *If you're sharing your body with one person and then share it with another, you could catch something that would effect the first person.* this is why I said obviously if it's mutually consensual & safe ( as in protected ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 One of the biggest reasons given for break-ups is infidelity. It's most commonly experienced as a severe betrayal, obviously. And there is a lot of evidence to suggest that humans adapted for both monogamous and polygamous approaches. But we also have a capacity to murder that comes from our evolutionary history. That doesn't mean we should do that. Natural ≠ good. Also, because it annoyed me to hear it and I feel like nitpicking, emotions are not ideas. Ideas are representations of things. We have ideas of what emotions are, but that doesn't make them the same thing. Emotions can cause and be caused by thoughts, but they are separate things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aya Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Also, because it annoyed me to hear it and I feel like nitpicking, emotions are not ideas. Ideas are representations of things. We have ideas of what emotions are, but that doesn't make them the same thing. Emotions can cause and be caused by thoughts, but they are separate things. You need nothing to be happy, you need something to be sad Cognitive distortion ( presuming that negative feelings expose the true nature of things, and experiencing reality as a reflection of emotionally linked thoughts.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Happiness is a product. It cannot be attained in a void. why do you assume the way I think now is down to something from my childhood ? You entered the world a blank slate. You have arrived at a conclusion about something. The something has benefits but the conclusion not only provides a purely unfavorable perspective, it misrepresents the subject matter. This is trauma. Sexuality and especially human interaction are formed as a child. While I agree that it isn't necessarily something from your childhood, it's virtually a statistical certainty. I can now add to that your claim that you trust everybody 100%. Not only is this unrealistic (indicating trauma), but you didn't trust my perspective More important would be that you avoided the question. You don't have to answer it obviously, but you'll derive value from exploring your own aversion to doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aya Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 you are correct dsayers I'm sorry I didn't answer the question, did I ? *Are you in touch with what from your childhood has led you to the conclusion that monogamy is bad * No, there is nothing from my childhood that makes me believe monogamy is bad for me. happiness is a product of what? if i entered the world a blank state what perceived this state? (babies experience emotion in the womb). just to reiterate, I do not think monogamy is bad for me & can someone please explain to me why people keep assuming that others; A have a problem & B it goes back to their childhood? it's like a common thing to assume here, I understand how digging into the past for some people might help them psychologically, but I've noticed if someone says 'no it's nothing to do with my childhood' others keep banging on about it like its the root cause of every issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 It surprises you that a forum about philosophy finds value in honesty and self-knowledge? You made the analogy that monogamy (which is voluntary) equates to slavery (the initiation of the use of force) and that imposed limitation equates to freedom. There is a reason for this. If it's not something you'd like to learn about yourself, that's fine. It's only important that you are aware that you are choosing to not explore that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aya Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 It surprises you that a forum about philosophy finds value in honesty and self-knowledge? You made the analogy that monogamy (which is voluntary) equates to slavery (the initiation of the use of force) and that imposed limitation equates to freedom. There is a reason for this. If it's not something you'd like to learn about yourself, that's fine. It's only important that you are aware that you are choosing to not explore that. You seem to be having a conversation with someone else here, either that or your fabricating things from thin air I'm not going to carry this on, I can't after I read ''It surprises you that a forum about philosophy finds value in honesty and self-knowledge?'' I can only conclude your implicating what I've said is dishonest & I don't know myself but you don't need to do that, as if you scan back through the posts you'l realize I'm not for or against either position I'm simply stating there is another way & people are happy sharing their partners. never made the analogy RE monogamy = slavery, anyways, I generally like reading your posts on the board but this is going nowhere =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 the idea of another entity having that level of ownership over my body is...harrowing to me, I don't sleep around but I am free! In this quote, I feel that you have equated an imposed limitation as being free. I made the case by pointing out how freedom within a cage isn't freedom, which you accepted when you said: I do see what your saying about reaching a deeper level of love & trust In that first quote, I also read that monogamy is slavery. I agree with you that polygamy is perfectly fine where all parties involved voluntarily consent to that arrangement. However, a person who wants to make the point that there is nothing immoral about polygamy would not need to equate monogamy to slavery. Since I feel that you have, I suspect your motivation was more than: I'm simply stating there is another way & people are happy sharing their partners. I can only conclude your implicating what I've said is dishonest & I don't know myself It's not an implication. I've been forthcoming with the fact that I think there is a gap in your self-knowledge. Please understand that I'm not blaming you! I remember when I first started studying philosophy and pursuing self-knowledge, I giggled in desperation as I was horrified at how much of the world I was lied to about. It wasn't just that I didn't know the truth, it was that I didn't know that I didn't know the truth. Because everybody that supposedly cared about me took advantage of their power disparity over me to keep me subservient to them. Anyways, a person doesn't come to the conclusion that a voluntary choice is akin to the initiation of the use of force. It is natural to assume that this conclusion was either inflicted upon you directly or modeled for you. That you're willing to say it aloud indicated that you were not aware that the conclusion doesn't accurately describe the real world. Hence my inquiry into if you were aware of the source of this error or not. You mentioned that you feel this exchange isn't going anywhere, but why? Have you refuted my assertion that monogamy is not slavery? I don't see that you have. I have seen you not answer a question. I've seen you say that you didn't make a claim to the contrary, which is not the same as refuting my assertion. Now I see you expressing frustration in the fact that it's not going anywhere. I feel this is a resistance of examining how you came to that conclusion because of the discomfort it would provide about whomever inflicted that conclusion upon you. If I'm totally off base, I am truly sorry. But I do feel the evidence is consistent. For what it is worth, there was a time in my life, quite recently in fact, where I too had a laissez-faire intention towards romantic relationships. It's not because I had intentions or desires of cheating, but that I've behaved like an owner in the past and I felt the reminder that I am still in competition would help me maintain a higher standard of treating that person well. Since I have begun studying philosophy, I have come to accept that what you gain from a committed relationship (assuming you have the self-knowledge to choose a partner virtuously) far outweighs the VOLUNTARY positive obligation you create to not be romantically available to others. I'm not saying others have to adopt this outlook, but even when I anticipated open relationships, I never experienced the drive to describe monogamy as being tied down or taken from. I'm sorry this exchange is frustrating for you. I hope that at some point, it proves to be of value to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Aya, youz be trollin' Can you tell us your experience with infidelity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aya Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 In this quote, I feel that you have equated an imposed limitation as being free. I made the case by pointing out how freedom within a cage isn't freedom, which you accepted when you said: *I do see what your saying about reaching a deeper level of love & trust* I still don't know what it is your defending dsayers... how could I refute your assertion that monogamy is not slavery when I never claimed it was, understand what you have done again, you've taken a snippet of what I said totally out of context to support the belief you've fabricated that I've implicated it's slavery, when if you scroll up you will see I immediately said after with no stops... *but realize I'm way past that, I trust everyone automatically 100%* you said: *Now I see you expressing frustration in the fact that it's not going anywhere.* answer me this, how did you conclude I'm expressing frustration from me saying.. * I generally like reading your posts on the board but this is going nowhere =) * hi kevin, I've never cheated but I have been cheated on in 3 relationships, if I ever enter a relationship in the future it would be understood from the start the relationship is sexually open. Trolololololl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 hi kevin, I've never cheated but I have been cheated on in 3 relationships, if I ever enter a relationship in the future it would be understood from the start the relationship is sexually open. Great! But that's not what infidelity is. The conflation of these two things is the origin of the problem: you have an understanding and the cheater doesn't, in fact they break the implicit contract in the act (which is why it's called "cheating"). Otherwise, we're just talking about open relationships. Personally, I would never have an open relationship, but it's certainly not cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I can now add to that your claim that you trust everybody 100%. Not only is this unrealistic (indicating trauma), but you didn't trust my perspective I addressed the 100% trust thing already. It doesn't appear you had anything to say about it despite its accusation of provable inconsistency. the idea of another entity having that level of ownership over my body is...harrowing to me harrowing - extremely disturbing or distressing; grievous That quote is you portraying voluntary monogamy as extremely disturbing or distressing; grievous. If you and I were in a relationship, agreed to be exclusive, and were sexually active, I would be horrified to find that you view YOUR VOLUNTARY COMMITMENT as extremely disturbing or distressing; grievous. If I paid $5 for a sandwich, what would it mean if I said that I found it extremely disturbing or distressing; grievous that that person has that level of ownership over my $5? Wouldn't you find that to be a bizarre description of my voluntary transaction? I've been trying to refrain from drawing parallels since my example is a permanent exchange whereas what you're talking about is more akin to lending. Which is why the only time (before now) I didn't delete it after typing it out was talking about lending something out. The point remains that it's the description of a voluntary act as traumatic, which means trauma has been associated with that voluntary, commonplace act for you. I will apologize if progress in this regard has been arrested due to my use of the word "slavery" specifically. However, I personally do not see a discrepancy since slavery is asserting an involuntary ownership over a person's body or time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 In my experience cheating always stems from feelings of inferiority. People who cheat feel like they can't measure up to their partner, they feel like their partner can always do better, which triggers feelings of insecurity and fear of abandonment. The more attractive or likeable they perceive their partner to be, the more insecure they become. This can manifest itself directly, either in the form of needy behavior towards their partner or in the form of trying to put their partner down. But it can also manifest itself in the form of cheating. It might be that they feel like their partner is such a superior human being that he or she gets attention and love from everyone around them, which means that their cheating is simply a way of restoring the power imbalance. It could also be because they feel like their partner isn't giving them the attention that they deserve, and may even be giving their love and affection to other people instead, which turns cheating into a form of revenge. Or it could be that they are so afraid of the idea that their partner might leave them that they feel the need to keep someone on the side as a form of insurance. Of course cheating is always a bad move because it only exacerbates feelings of inferiority and sends you into a downward spiral. As for childhood origins. I think any childhood that leaves you feeling small and insignificant is a risk factor. I shouldn't say risk factor because cheating is not something that just happens to you, it's a choice and people who cheat are completely responsible for that, but I can't think of a better word right now. Other risk factors are obviously cheating of one or both parents, especially if it was tolerated, and growing up in an environment with a high proportion of insecure people who have a firm grasp on what sex and status are but are fairly clueless when it comes to actual love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 Kevin, when you said "wanting to be desired", that had some resonance with me. I remember feeling guilty when I cheated too. why did you not tell the person that you were interested in starting a relationship with the other woman? I would think that emotional pain was not something that is dealt with while you were were growing up, or you were attacked for expressing emotions or feelings. When you have honest conversation in a truly and loving non-violent relationship, even when topics are hard, the pressure in your mind goes down, and it does not activate the flight-or-fight mechanism. Recognize that you have probably have never seen a relationship where two people are totally curious and nice to each other, even through hard, painful topics. Your model (father) for how a relationship works with a woman is that honesty is not required for the relationship. that's a very interesting question and I had never thought to ask that before. I do remember finding it extraordinarily difficult to be honest.Tyler, I can relate to what you said about the downward spiral. Cheating is never something to feel proud of. I never felt like I viewed by partners as superior. Some I viewed as inferior. But, I suppose choosing people who I could feel superior by rather than equal would indicate insecurity. Interesting, I appreciate everyone's feedback. Although, I didn't find the feedback as helpful as I would have liked. Thank you anyways, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 I just had a thought. Stef said something is a recent all in show to the effect of "we don't pick individuals to date. we pick tribes everyone we pick comes with a family and a history. Some people only want to focus on things like tits though in an attempt to carve them off from their tribe, to make the the other person more fuckable. this is why affairs are so delicious to people."Maybe at some level I prefered cheating when I was younger was because the model of a monogomous marriage that was presented to me was so horrying and gross, that I said on some level "screw that". Or maybe my dad regretted being married to my mom and so said "screw this" cheated on her and the reason I followed his footsteps is because I identified with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSchoolofAthens Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I just had a thought. Stef said something is a recent all in show to the effect of "we don't pick individuals to date. we pick tribes everyone we pick comes with a family and a history. Some people only want to focus on things like tits though in an attempt to carve them off from their tribe, to make the the other person more fuckable. this is why affairs are so delicious to people." Maybe at some level I prefered cheating when I was younger was because the model of a monogomous marriage that was presented to me was so horrying and gross, that I said on some level "screw that". Or maybe my dad regretted being married to my mom and so said "screw this" cheated on her and the reason I followed his footsteps is because I identified with him? In my amateur opinion, it did have to do with the negative experiences you witnessed as a child. I got deeply depressed in high school because I didn't see a point in education as a result of seeing my parents financially struggle. (both were educated, my mom with a masters degree and my dad with a degree that I can't quite remember at the time, a man who was also lazy and irrational when it came to a career) I don't think that you've cheated in order to get back at the opposite sex. You've cheated because the relationship with the most potential to form you - your parents relationship - was one that lacked virtue. Now you could have seen this and decided that you would do everything in your power to not repeat it, which is fortunately what I think you are doing now or have already learned to do, or you could have chosen, like you understandably did, to pursue relationship that are void of virtue. This is a result of the culture that your family raise you in, a culture of betrayal and dishonesty, and you (like any individual) is left with two choices: fight this culture of betrayal, or join it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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