kozi Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Hi "This is long you do not have to read everything, only read the chapters that you need to read to answer the question." I have 3 questions 1) Were my parents abusive? And if yes was it there fault? Are they abusive or not, I am confuse. 2) Am I the way I am because of my parent?(as much as I kind of believe it, I don't want to sound like a whinny person)(saying omg it's my parents fault) 3) What solutions do you suggest and why? And here are rules that must be respected at my moms place. 1) My Home my rules whatever the age even if over 18 2) you were my kid and will always be my kid 3)younger siblings must respect and listen to their older sibling and elders 4) Childrens are expected to take care of their elder in old age 5)can't arrive late at home everyday or every week. 6) the parent is always right 7) can't have sex in my room( I think that one is reasonable) 8) expected to contribute finantially to the home 9) My moms definition of a good man is a man that provides ressources to his familly. Values learn, 1) its okey to lie or steal sometime if its for a good cause like giving food to your kids(this one confused me a lot) 2) you must share with others 3) be polite 4)dont let people bullie you 5)defend yourself if you are attacked 6) people of colour must always work harder to succeed Communication with my mom is difficult because she is not the strongest at french and, I can never know if she is acting sick or genuily sick. She has high and low tention and when she get into heated dispute with me she starts getting sick, which makes my sister say I should stop, to avoid my mom getting a heart attack or a stroke. She is pretty sick physically but not too sick that she cannot take care of her own self. And her education is very low. In her school you had too learn things by heart without knowing why, and each time you made mistake you were punished by getting hit or by staying on your knees, and when you got home you might get a second bitting from your parents. All schools and parents did it at the time. People in my familly see it as normal and humorous. So she doesnt have much critical thinking skills or reason unfortunately but is very superstitious and christian. ____________________________________________________________________ Table of content 0. Introduction 1. Family history 1.2 some bad stuff my mom said, and her hate of men(except me) 1.3 My dad 1..3 my mom 1.4 punishments 1.5 my older sister 1.6 religion 1.7 my childhood and history of rejections 1.8 Is my mom aware of what she is doing? And how to find out? 2. Guilt 3. My love life and sexuality 4. Confusions 5. Career goals 6. Conclusion ___________________________________________________________________ Here are a few problems I had, that thanks god( I am atheism I say it for sake of expression) I discovered the source of those problems therefore I begun to solve a few. Of them.(with the help of counselors and philosophy)as well as (confronting my fears) I have been trying too hard to be somebody that I am not. 1) Afraid to engage In physical or verbal conflict involving defending an opinion or of someone who wants to cause violence physical or verbal to me, for example somebody saying that I am stupid for not performing well at work. ( Now I defend my opinions against people, but it is difficult to do and I defend my opinions against my mom occasionally by using a comedic tone, with my sister I defend too. Obviously I never win an argument against my family and I am never right. Even with my dad, I am wrong for not calling him, I am late, and everything is my fault, not his. ( this question is troublesome to answer during job interviews) 2) Afraid or very uncomfortable to be intimate with women. (It's difficult to have full trust in women as much as in men, but I can have conversation, mostly superficial with 20% of personal stuff.), I have trust issue in general with people. I had a hard time trusting in my own self. 3) Uncomfortable to talk about sex and to express sexual desire or to display sexual energy ( I can force it but it doesn't come naturally. When I was a teenager sex was a taboo subject at home. If people kissed on tv, the channel was changed. And If I asked a question about a word, I was told that I was too young to know), First time I had condoms home, my mother felt uneasy. 4) Am still a virgin at 25 and I used to be very frustrated about it. (Sometimes I am considering participating in the “mgtow” movement. I stopped pursuing sex now as I am focused on a hobby that I really love. I masturbate on pornography but I reduced my frequency of exposure to pornography by a lot. 5) Never had a real relationship, I wanted one super badly but now I don't really care. I was obsess with relationships or sex.( it used to be my main goal in life and the best I did is dating 2 girls for 2 weeks we did kiss and hold hands. One of them Had a bad breakup I believe. She as a successful career thought, and loved what I do and gave me my first kiss; in short she boosted my confidence a lot. I was 19 when I had my first kiss which was with her. The second one I don't know much about except that she is working toward a successful career in a similar hobby of mine. Beside does 2 successful date I had at least 30 dates that went nowhere 6) I was very hard on myself (perfectionist), it was nearly impossible to accept that I was good at something. It was difficult for me to take compliments positively because I did not trust that people believed in me. Always trying too hard to be the best in my career and skills that I chosed, I was rarely satisfied by my effort and results. I could stay awake all night to finish school projects, accomplishment was more valuable than happiness) Now sometime people will say I'm good at something and I do an effort to trust their 7) Obsess with physical appearance, with a lot of yo-yo dieting for 6-8 years gaining and loosing 20lbs. ( if I got fat or lost abs my sister would say it, and sometimes my mom too.) (if some people at school said I was fat in the last 2 years it would make me sad)(Now I decided to use a slow way to lose weight, and I changed my appearance.) Unfortunately still now it's important to me, I still find it hard to love my self without having the best body I can. I am trying but I still need this body.) I was told when young that my father was an ugly guy and that i looked like him/ now she says I'm good looking and better than my dad 8) Lots of duality and confusion between career choices and hobbies. (I had to choose between illustration (commercial communication arts), Dancing/Circus and Acting. My parents wanted me to do stuff in Medicine or engineering. I choose Illustration. Now I wish I had taken dance or circus. 9) Always felt I owe something to somebody and could never say no.( on top of that I am still confuse of wether or not I owe my parents something, I used to want to become rich to save my mom from her depts., cuz I love her so much) 10) General fear of a lot of things including fear of yapping big dogs.(fear of all my family member rejecting me and calling me a selfish Ingrate.), I use to fear sleeping in the dark. 11) Use to be very shy.( but I used pick up artistry for 4 years, talking to strange women and going to dates and getting rejected. Now I call myself more reserved and quiet instead of shy. I still get some anxiety sometimes. I feel anxious because when people make a joke about me, I tend to get angry very fast. No socialising avoids the issue of been made fun off (as joke) . I have been called weird and different, by acquaintance, I learned to accept and like it. 12) Solutions: After 5 years of seeing a school counsellor, well 2 different one. I finally accepted that the origins of the problem are my education from home. What she said is : You are a non-traditional kid born in a traditional family and the only way to get better is to first separate yourself from your mother physically(move out) and second mentally separate yourself from her. I probably wrote in my journal but from my memory I think she said that my mother was selfish and manipulative. I am tired of this environment despite me paying very little for rent and food. I feel excited to move out. _______________________________________________________________________________________ Now the fallowing text is very long. You may use the table of content above to skip to whichever parts you may feel the need to read, to answer my questions. _________________________________________________________________________________________ 1.Familly History: 1.1 The positive things that were done. Now the problem with this is. My mom did my food, took care of me when I had my burnout from college. Cuddle me a bit as a kid. (She considered that kid should not be cuddled too much and her family agreed and I did not get maternal milk I Think)(I know she is against giving maternal milk)When bullied at school she advised me. She prevented me of becoming an alcoholic or druggy by because of bad friends. She makes me pay a small part of the rent and food and ask for help on some depts. She helped to pay for 10% of my college tuition, by giving me credits money and sometimes real money. I have warm memories of her touching my nose; I have memory of going to her room when I had a nightmare and me sleeping near her. Last year I was always remembering these memories and I always wished that I could still sleep near my mom in her bed. One day I called my dad because I felt sick, but my dad was not here to help me so my mom took care of me . 1.2 Some bad stuff my mom thinks and said and her hate for men and sex and pleasure. But in contrast, I have being called stupid and idiot sometimes when I was probly 5-10years old. The justification for it is because I was unable to do certain things the right way. At the moment she says similar things but as a joke and very rarely, because obviously I am better at doing things now. Now when she says things like that I imagine what I would say. I think I replied to her once but there were no agreement. I was also told that I was not good looking and looked like my father and that my father was ugly. But now she says I am a good looking guy and that im different and better then my father. My mom and dad were separated before I was conscious. And I was born to hate my dad. I was told and heard conversation that men are evil! I believe it was a common toward only men in my race because most black person don't have a dad therefore all black dad are bad. A lot of female friends of family were single moms. I saw my dad on rare occasion but had fun. He bought me kool toys and played with me a bit until I started to hate him because he was lying and my mom used that as an advantage to make me hate him. Also the fact that he had other partners was used to make me hate him. Thirdly is anger about child support was used to make me hate him too. But I learned 4 years ago that he was always busy because he was paying some child support or alimony for me plus he had many other children to take care off. My dad's version of the reason he separated with my mom was that my mom loved him but my mom's cousins who hated men except for the sex and money. My aunt apparently told my mom that she should find a way to kick my dad out of the house and get child support. Till now I never told my mom that I like my dad now. Oh and I have often beign called lazy and all of this up till now. And now when people call me lazy in school I take it very personal and get very mad or sad. I have also beign told by my mom that I am not man an off because I dont know how to fix things n the house when she ask. I cant know everything, I know some thing but unfortunately I am not an andy man, I am more of an illustrator, an artist a thinker. 1.3 My dad My dad was in the military when young. He is strict, more than my mom, but less religious than my mom but he goes to church. He wants me to be polite with him. I have no subject and hobbies in common with him and we are unable to deeply connect because have been disconnected for so long. I don't like much hanging out with him cause its boring and we always meet during him working but I love is presence and I like to feel that he is a man I like to see him deal with client. He is an entrepreneur. And works super hard, it seems like he never takes a break (one explanation of why I overwork my safe even when in pain). He worked 6 days a week until he was 60 years old. He has recreated a new family now. My dad had at least 3 different wife and few children in is life. He is 66 years old now and still works but 5-4 days a week. Unfortunately I don't really feel love for him but no hate either. He seems to love me a lot thought. He used to give me promises to meet me to go out when I was a kid and then he would cancel on me. I hated this. Because I loved him and wanted to see him but then he would lie to me and work instead. My mom used that to help me hate him too. Unfortunately I always forgave him. I think. People putted a lot of pressure and hate on my dad, including is on family. They told him that he is irresponsible and doesn't take care of is kids. All is kids 1.3 My mom My mom was with another man before my dad and had my sister with him. My sister never met her dad because he died or disappeared. He used to gamble apparently. But my mother was in need of a man no because, she is born in a country that is poor and immigrated in Canada. Obviously needed to Mary and get a husband because she had no skills and no education. My mom often says that women should not Mary for love, but for resources. My mom regrets her choices and said she should have married a handsome white man when she was pretty and young. She was like a princess at home she told me her brothers and sister did most of the work and her dad loved her very much. In contrast Her parents were very harsh and strict, and gave many rules. She said parents in her country were mean for no reason. Hitting their kids and yelling at them. People from my parent's country actually find animal cruelty to be a good thing and a normal thing. People also get robbed and the law is not very good. My mom worry a lot about what other parents thinks of her. She feels insecure that people realises that her son is not going to church. She feels insecure that people ask why I don't have a girlfriend. Sometimes she prefers me not to show up to an event to avoid shame. And sometimes she wants me to come to an event to avoid shame. I suppose this is selfish right? 1.4 Punishment I got hit for punishment in the past. Once for not eating my food, and once for being too eager to open Christmas presents in front of family member( I think she did it to not be ashamed in front of her niece) Because her niece Hits her son with her fists(punching)(her nieces punishment are harsher). Till today I see these punishments as justified. I was hit with a belt. My mom thought always refused that the men of the family punish the kids because the man is too strong. On another note my mom's niece was not a single mom but Her and the husband was in a bad marriage, The husband manned up(like we say), had no sex and gave all is money to the house(my mother considered him a good man for sacrificing is pleasure) but he divorced recently. Obviously my mom approved that the husband was an evil guy because he divorced (which he is not a bad man I know him), unfortunately I consider these punishment to myself somewhat justify, as the things I was punished for were not good. I was also yelled on by my mom a lot. And as a result at least 3 times in my life I have been yelled on by teachers and it made me cry. The last time it happened I was 22 years old. And even till now I feel a shame and feel weak for having cried. And I am afraid of that teacher you yelled at me, (i know he as anger problem etc) I had a tendency to cry if I got hit by people to much, this made me felt like a weak man also. It's difficult for me to see anarchy as a good thing. I wonder if the world can work without a leader. And can people really be great without punishment. These concepts are hard to accept for me. But if I can think critically, maybe I will approve of anarchy. If I had kid I might actually want to hit them out of anger. So it is a good thing I don't want kids in a way. I fear kids, I fear kids not obeying me, and feeling shame of them not obeying me. I am the kind of guy in a company that needs someone to tell him what to do, It is difficult for me to be assertive, but I made a lot of progress by practice. Oh and I want to a Now I don't know if this story help, One thing that helps me prove the theory of my counselors is. One thing that helps me prove the theory of my counselors is my older sister. 1.5 My Older Sister My sister is over 30 and still a virgin and on top of that never had a relationship and never dated and still lives at home with me and my mother. I am 25 years old but will leave next year at 26 years old. My sister has been having some women problems that might contribute to her not having kids if she waits longer. And my mom know this but she wants her to mary the kinds of men she . And my sis is still afraid to move out and on top of that she feels trapped by the obligation of the church and religion. She can't leave the church and the religion because she is afraid to lose all the friends including my mom's respect and my moms services which she depends on. She told my mom she wants to leave this church for a new church and my mom said that she doesn't want her to move out to a new church and my sister obeyed, that's 1 year ago. Recently my sis started to doubt religion but she is still a believer. She wishes she could travel but said she can't because of my mom debt and growing sickness. My sister wishes she could move out but is worried about my mom's health. My sister believes that she has an obligation to take care of my mother(just like the rule above), my sister feels very guilty to leave her. She is afraid of the consequences of leaving which are shame and abandonment of her family, I know the church and the family will judge her. My moms idea is that once my sister get married that my mom can live with my sister and her husband like a lot of people in my culture do. My sister disagree but did not present her disagreement with my mother. She told me thought. My sister did not want to buy a new car because she doesn't have the money finance. But she bought it because my mom needs it for the grocery and visits to the doctor. My sister told me she cannot refuse the request of my mom to get a new car. My sister is frustrated and unhappy she told me. I suggested see a counselor or therapist but no success. (For the therapist she can't because she is paying my mom's dept. and the rent. She is also afraid to see counselors because she is afraid to have nothing to say, I suppose it is guilt also. She did call one counselor once but then gave up She told me she will try again but first want to stay longer at home and get some more education for her career.. I used to hate my sister a lot. Because she always ordered me to do things for her that she can do herself, like going in the fridge to get stuff for her while she could. I hated her also because I felt guilty to disobey her because I had an obligation to obey my older siblings including her. I also hated her trying to be a second mom to me. She admitted this year that she dropped me on the floor when I was 1 or 2years old; she was 7-10 years old. She dropped me out of jealousy or something but she said she regret it and that she did not mean it. But I did lots of passive aggressive things too. My sister as a lot of weight problems, she loves to eat very sweat and salty stuff. She is self-conscious about her image, She is actually overweight, and unfortunately I can't like to her and feel the same as her so I can't help much on that part. 1.6 Religion At 7 years old I got converted to the protestant religion( I was told that everything I ask to god I will be given to me by god(a kid's dream)and that I can be protected from bad dreams and nightmares. And at 16 I got bored and stopped going to church at 18 years old and it caused a lot of hate and disagreement in all my family of around 15-25 people. I was a black a sheep. 1.7 My childhood and rejections I did not have the luxury to choose my style of fashion(but I thought all parents decided on that except for the lucky kids(the white kids)) so when I was 16 years old I hid my gothic clothing's in my school bag and redressed myself in the schools restroom school. At that period I had 2 personalities one at home and one at school. I also got into a lot of arguments with my parents and my sister. It always ended with them being right and me being ungrateful. Once confronted her about my style of fashion and whore my cloths in my house, I was 18., And she stripped me of my gothic accessories(not naked) So I went outside in the way she wanted me to dress and the next day I continued my game of concealing my fashion style. Now she doesn't prevent me to be what I want but at the same time I am not a gothic anymore. If I was a gothic of course it is bad because it represents Satan somewhat in her views. I dress my way now but she says it's wrong. She jokes about it and that I look like a beggar I laugh it with her of course. If I have bad fashion taste she tells me but I do what I want. The older I get the more I dress like in her ideology. Its seems. But it's not in my control. I wonder what happened. Maybe I just grew up and changed my style I suppose? Or I switched from pleasing my mother to pleasing women I am sexually attracted to. But mentally thought I evolved. So obviously there is no negotiation at home except for food. I could never sleep over at my friends or visit my friends except if they were black or that she knew the parents and that the parents were religious. My mom always believed what the news said. She believed that if I went to friend's house I can get abused, sexually abused or kidnapped. My friends at school (mostly white) thought it was weird. But that changed. And at age 20 I disobeyed and went to a party and slept over She got mad and I did it. 3 more times, my sister was against me also (against her own will). And then she my mom got less angry but always found ways to make me feel guilty for going to party and bars. For example if I come late home, the neighbours will judge we and we may lose our apartment because of you. That's her words. Just like me stopping to dress the way I loved I stopped partying or going to clubs and I wonder if it is me growing up or just the effect of what she wills. I know I hated having to argue all the time. My mother is a bit racist, hates gays and lesbians, hates non religion, hates man especially black men, seems to hate sex(seems like she never enjoyed it by a story she once told) Is always poor, as a lot of depts. And my sister pays most of her depts. And the depts. always come back it never ends. Her hope was for me and my sister to get careers. In her mind she had no choice to get in depts.(obviously she never learned about finance, my aunt did thought) and I help to pay sometimes too. Because me living in the house means I must help (like the rules above). In kindergarten apparently they wanted to transfer me to a special school because I never talked to nobody. My mom refused thought because she thought if I went to the special school I could become worst then what I was and I agree with her on that. (What she doesn't know is that it could be her fault). In elementary school I always had bad grades and always passed with the lowest grades possible, except for gym class and art class. My peers and friends loved my drawing skills. Once I had to go camping with the school, my mom refused to let me go. but the stubborn teachers knocked on the door and took me by force (the teacher did well because I loved that trip so much, it taught me a lot because now I love nature) my mom worries a lot of me getting killed or dying or getting kidnapped. In high school I had very bad grades except for the 3 last years. I could excel in art class, especially drama class and gym. But I was very depressed. I thought I was depressed because I could get no girls. I got bullied by a lot of people; I always let them bully me(it's almost like I was replicating my parents relationship without knowing it I guess). And being yelled at made me cry. I always had to work harder than others to pass in school. There was a lot of pressure to succeed in school because school is the only path to success and happiness (my parents did not get the opportunity of school) MY parents encourage school over pleasure, career over pleasure. So they discouraged me from activities like, except for ballroom style dances (because it in our culture) and ballet was gay so I could not do that. And of course in college I wanted to get girls even more but could not get them and school work was even more difficult, had to drink coffee every day and eat bad foods. At 22 years I went into a big big big depression, I had an anxiety attack during my sleep, Because I putted a lot of pressure in myself like getting a good career to help my poor mom and dad, Like helping my mom's family who lives in a poor country, like getting girls to have sex with me, to love me. To have a beautiful body, To be able to make my teacher appreciate me. And I exploded. My mom helped me and accepted that I take school slow. Only when I exploded did I get the right to get a break. That made me realise how a lot of business do the same, they work hard until they get a burnout. And they are praised for the burnout! I told myself never again. I started looking in communities like the Idle foundation and the whywork. Communities who wants to abolish the 40 hour work week etc. My mom even proposed that I take an easier major and of course a major of her choice. 1.8 Is my mom aware of what she is doing? But at the same time, is it her fault? She is born pretty much into religion, religion teaches bad things, She had bad influences (her cousin and single friends) and strict parents. She did not do much school beside maybe 1 or 2 years of adult high school maybe. This mean she doesn't know much about the law and about psychology or philosophy and she have difficulty speaking complex ideas in French. She doesn't believe in therapy only church. Church is the cure for everything for her. She thinks she can eat what she wants but god will cure her. She believes that if a kid is evil its not the parents fault. Probably the devil. Her philosophy is that a Parent is always right and the kid is always wrong. So each kid we know that did something bad it was always and is always the kids fault. Recently I challenged her on that subject but no negotiation was possible I had to be jokey about it. She was okey with manipulating man for services like help for groceries and work on the house and money, etc. As a result I am finishing college now in 5 years instead of 3years. So I have been in college for 7 years and it is only this year that I am getting a diploma, not a bachelor’s degree but a cegep diploma, it’s like an associate’s degree for Americans. And I was always having a hard time at school since I was young. I loved to dance but never got encouraged. They hated the field I took and only liked it when they saw I was somewhat good.at it I had to drink a lot of coffee every day to motivate myself to work in school, Always forcing myself to work. Always giving myself ridiculous standards of quality which I never reached. And I never reached them because I did not realise I was broken. I was told that maybe I am a.d.d. or a.d.h.d. My sister is very depressed and is mad at her 2. Guilt I am feeling guilt as whether I will help my mom when in old age. The thing is I don’t think I will be doing a high income career. I feel guilty of living on my own and letting my sister suffer longer supporting my mother. I feel guilty of leaving and I am afraid of the day that I will be considered an ingrate and selfish because I will be paying rent for myself instead of helping my family which is in the culture of my mom’s country. In her country kids stay with their mom and dad for a long time and help the parents in old age. Once she said that, kids are ingrate, they leave the house and create their own life and never come back and she said at least I have my daughter (my sister) to count on. What she doesn’t know is my sister is very angry and mad she just never expressed it to her. 3. My Love life I am a 25 years old virgin, and had only 2 relationships who lasted 2 weeks each until breakups. I had a lot of dates but now I realised I choose the wrong type of girls probably. And I was very shallow (((my mom and sister are very shallow too. Men must be good looking, have great career and get married and buy the women a lot of material things and pay the bills. He must be religious. Dressed clean and sharp like a normal citizen. And Women must have breasts, she can’t be skinny, she must be smart and independent. They love to judge a woman is pretty or not pretty etc.))) So I used to be very looks oriented. Now I need looks but only what I think looks good, not what the media think is good. And I need more than the looks. And now with philosophy and the Mgtow movement I am even more precise In what I want in a women. I do not want kids, I do not want to get married, I don’t know if I want a girl living at my place or not. I’d like to have sex with a virgin like me, buts going to be hard to find. If she is not a virgin its fine also. I am sometime thinking of getting a vasectomy. Because if the girl gets pregnant I will be clear with her that I don’t want to take care of the child. No child for me before 40 years old for sure. Sometime I thought of becoming a single dad lol. I don’t use pick up artistry anymore, for a while I would talk only to girls in activities that I practiced. I don’t go out too much with people I go out alone more often. Now I don’t approach at all, I only do my hobbies but I love to look at girls for their body and how sexy they are. But I do have conversation with women just for conversation sakes. But it’s hard for me to just be friends. I tend to love every girl who is kind and nice to me, almost like if I was trying to fill a hole in me So I stopped. I realised maybe I need to start serious therapy. I realised that being attracted to me (girls attracted to me) is not easy because I have ideas and views that are very different than most people and on top of that I tend to be reserved and not to talk too much except if I find similar views. Most days I can be happy single but some days I can’t avoid the feeling of loneliness and not being physically or intellectually a womens choice. Maybe it’s because I am living from my parent’s money and because I don’t have a career yet. Even though I see boys who live with their mom have girlfriend(maybe it’s because their family is more functional I don’t know) But At the same time I dodge a bullet, no unwanted pregnancy and no stds no aids. 4.Confusion I am very very very very confuse as whether she is good or bad, as she did not learn what is good parenting because every of her friends believe that this is the way also, actually some of her friends are way way way way worse. 5. Carreer goals I want to work a normal full time job 40hours a week a job that is very easy so that in the next 10 years I can dance and practice circus full time as a hobby.I don't want to be a freelance illustrator because that would take a lot of time of dancing. And working instudio would require I practice for another 1 year and would also take to much time of me dancing. After 10 year I was considering either something in dance or geography or coming back to illustration or doing graphic design. Subject like philosophy interest me but I don't think I want to be a professor. The thing is I spent 7 years of hard work not doing the things I love and sacrificing both my physical and mental health for a career that I probly wont be working in, at least for a long while, And I have 22 000$ in depts I must pay back in maximum 10 years. Dancing and circus will cost me 4000$ a year this includes dancing 4-5days a week with physical therapy and massage included. I had a lot of difficulty in jobs, had a lot of crazy boss, and boss who hated me for not beign social and also because I dont work fast an off and make to many mistake(forget stuff) The last job I had and the current job I had were both minimum wage but they like my work. It does suck I guess tobe 25 on minimum wage. but eh i can change that. I did a 3 month unpaid internship in my field already also. And I did not like the job. and this type of carreer would require me to sacrifice 1-2 more years when I already sacrificed 7 years. And I am moving out next year. Only reason I am home now is I wanted to have an education and a skill. and I wanted to do what everyone said was right which is get a degree or a diploma. And it would have been difficult for me to get an education out of home. Now at least I have an off skills for either getting a bachelors degree on my own or just go in the job market. My friend told me I should save 4000$ before living but I dont know if I can save that much while living were I am. Im actualy pretending to be ok were I live just so I could finish my education and save money.And at the end of the day, maybe I should have left at 18. Maybe the reason why school and work was hard was because I was home. Instead me I was thinking if i dont cook and pay cheap rent, it means I can succeed better. 6. Conclusion Now I feel more confident, I confront people arguments sometimes, I love some quality of my self, Now that I will graduate from my diploma(which I am not interested in pursing anymore) I can focus on my hobbies. I love my hobby. My counselour told me that I am a different men then 5years ago, I progressed so much, And as much as it is difficult for me to accept compliments I accept this. Things I accept that I am good at are Know how to figure out myself well Good at making structures even if I am a disorganised person Can express complex ideas( I think) I have been told that I am smart or wise( Im to modest to accept this one) I am good in arts and illustration( not to my standards but I accept it) Good dancer(natural skill) Good physical habilities(natural skills) Open minded Genious in art( hard to accept) Good leader in a team( hard to believe) WOW that was long. And that's only 60% Hopefully this can help assess the question on the top and I am open to comments in brief now my problems are, I need to be able to see thats wrong, I am so brainwashed. Because I always thought I was in the minority of not normal people but actually everyone is the same? And I am always under the impression that if everyone does it, its good. I am confuse about autority but I know that I want equality!! But I am not sure if in the capitalist system of the west if I can demand to be equal to my boss. Can I really be equal to my mom. I dont event know how to solve issues other than with violence. Once a girl was bothering me at work and I could do nothing at it than getting mad or quitting the job if she continued. Feel the first thing I want to do now is move far away So that I can develop the skills I need. I realise I am somewhat like my mom, I dont want to date or get married. And like my dad I try to work too much and forger pleasure, always trying to get stability. My dad knows how to negotiate thought because I seem him negotiate when he works in his business. Anyway Hope you can help me a bit. U dont have to read everything, read the parts you think can help me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I'm really sorry to hear all of this. Thank you for taking the time to share it. I hope you're able to get some value in having done so. 1) Based on what I've read, yes. Listing the good stuff isn't important. Especially if the good stuff is food, which kidnappers and prison guards provide also. Good things will not change bad things. Gender identity is very important. Regardless of your gender, to be told that one gender is all bad is destructive. It's also misdirection in that the parent making the claim chose to have a child with a member of that gender, knowing full well that the offspring has a 50% chance of being that gender, with the other 50% change being somebody who would try to connect with that gender to procreate. Name calling is very destructive. It's also misdirection in that the parent making the claim is ignoring the fact that who you are is based on what they've modeled for you and chosen to expose you to. It's also arrogant in that it doesn't consider even for a moment that whatever motivated them to name call, maybe they are the one who is wrong. Keep in mind that because of the misdirection pointed out above, these things are additionally abusive in that they model for the child a lack of accountability. Like when you said you didn't want to come off as whiney, you are sensitive to this because this is the behavior you saw in your mother. Which by the way, saying 2+2=4 isn't whining. However, it is important that your understanding of these truths help you to see the way they influence your thoughts and behaviors, so that you can regain control of yourself. It is possible for somebody to see these things and use it as an excuse rather than an explanation. Does that make sense? 2) The basic answer is yes. They created whatever environment you grew up in. This is true of their behaviors, the home you grew up in, and the people that they exposed you to and/or left you in the care of. All of this alters who you are, how you think, and how you behave. This is why self-knowledge is so important: It's the only way we can be able to take control of our own lives after having been abused as children. 3) Pursuing self-knowledge. You mentioned a therapist, so that's a great start. Especially if you have one that doesn't subscribe to the old propaganda that proximity equals virtue. In other words, that being family means you have to keep them in your life. The very first step is honesty. Honesty with yourself, honesty about what it is that was inflicted upon you, honesty about how those things have affected you. For example, if one of your parents were abusive and the other wasn't, the one that wasn't is still responsible because they chose the abusive one to be in your life. Things like that. Or being honest about the fact that having good times doesn't mean or at all diminish the bad times. Also, it's important to not own that which was inflicted upon you. I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 dsayers, I read your post, I want to take the time to reread it and to answer it as clear and well as possible. I also want to re-edit my text to make it as grammaticly good as I can without beign a perfectionist(old habit) English is my second language but I have used english for 12-15 years. I can add that, I feel very conflicted about are my parents good or bad or in a grey zone. And I am afraid of the consequences of treating them like somebody evil because all the extended familly, friends and the culture/ethnicity believes it is right. I don't have much friends of people in my ethnicity and am feel disgusted at dating them(even if there is exceptions) Hopefuly I can see a way to solve these issues without violence. I see you have suggested some. No I havent seen a therapist but I have seen a counselour/social worker/adviser and that person advised me to see a therapist now. I have seen the adviser for 5 years 2 different ones. And I am still seeing him until I can work full time with no school interruption. This way I can pay for a therapist. thanks dsayers, I will reply to your answer soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I feel very conflicted about are my parents good or bad or in a grey zone. And I am afraid of the consequences of treating them like somebody evil because all the extended familly, friends and the culture/ethnicity believes it is right. Belief in something doesn't alter it's (state of) existence. Also, I did not say treat them like somebody evil. If you choose to continue to allow them in your life, what is important is being aware of that decision and being honest about the nature of their behavior. I wanted to ask you why you would want extended family and friends who support abusing people who cannot defend themselves? I'm not being insensitive to the plight of taking a principled stand or the repercussions of people who support evil leaving you for taking a principled stand. But I think it's a question you should be able to answer as part of being honest with yourself. The fact that you feel conflicted is your subconscious telling you that it is very important and requires an in depth analysis by you. It's great that you have identified this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 well my 2 conselours greatly helped me a lot to identifie this plusI will give my self prop that I am a smart guy also. And Learning about freedomainradio was the cherry on the sonday. things is I know one girl who is the daughter of one of my moms friend. Her mother disohned her and she left her mothers life. Everyone sees her as evil. Because her mother helped her when the daughter broke her leg, so they called her ingrate. Unfortunately I dont know the history behind the relation. But I know that she tryed her best for one of her son to never get married but he finally got married at 40 and lives with the mom still. I fear losing all my abusive familly because, I have been told that the only people I can trust is familly. Now if I dont have familly I feel I am alone, and have no one to help me in difficult times. It is inconceivable for me to realise that there could be another human than my familly who can shelter me, give me food, or affection. But I suppose such people exist? I have friends but dont know if they would help in tought situation or not. They said they would thought. Thats why its difficult to love women because the only love I know is the one of my mother. What I am worried is, how is that women doing right now? like is she well. I am a black person, and young we used to make fun on how white person familly were bad because the familly was to liberal and had no values. I know its not true. I believe my mom will never know that she did wrong, as much as she will never know that religion is not true and that god might not exist. hopefully I would like to get my sister on my side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 If you have a fear of being lonely, I can understand allowing those people to remain in your life. As long as you understand the truth of who they are, who you are, and the relationship you have with them from their perspective. I would urge you in the meantime to start working on how to be able to do what's best for you while not keeping people who are bad for you in your life. With the internet and social media, this is easier than ever. I've seen numerous start ups for local meet groups for this and that. If there's not one near you, try to set one up. You just never know when/where you're going to meet your best friend or spouse. I'm really sorry that you were told that only family can be trusted. It's one thing to indoctrinate somebody to revere evil as good, but it's something else entirely to portray evil as the only good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 Listing the good stuff isn't important. Especially if the good stuff is food, which kidnappers and prison guards provide also. Good things will not change bad things. I agree. Gender identity is very important. Regardless of your gender, to be told that one gender is all bad is destructive. It's also misdirection in that the parent making the claim chose to have a child with a member of that gender, knowing full well that the offspring has a 50% chance of being that gender, with the other 50% change being somebody who would try to connect with that gender to procreate. I don't know when the hate started. but yeah I believe gender could be important. Keep in mind that because of the misdirection pointed out above, these things are additionally abusive in that they model for the child a lack of accountability. Like when you said you didn't want to come off as whiney, you are sensitive to this because this is the behavior you saw in your mother. Which by the way, saying 2+2=4 isn't whining. However, it is important that your understanding of these truths help you to see the way they influence your thoughts and behaviors, so that you can regain control of yourself. It is possible for somebody to see these things and use it as an excuse rather than an explanation. Does that make sense? I do not understand this part. Was my mother whinning? what do you mein by 2+2=4 isn't whinning? you mean that me reasoning by looking at a true fact is not whinning right? what do you mean by to see these things and use it as an excuse rather than an explanation? old propaganda that proximity equals virtue. In other words, that being family means you have to keep them in your life. You mean there that some therapist will suggest me to stay with my familly no matter what? is that what you mean? The very first step is honesty. Honesty with yourself, honesty about what it is that was inflicted upon you, honesty about how those things have affected you. For example, if one of your parents were abusive and the other wasn't, the one that wasn't is still responsible because they chose the abusive one to be in your life. Things like that. Or being honest about the fact that having good times doesn't mean or at all diminish the bad times. But before beign honest, must find a way to undo what I have learned. Because some bad things I still somewhat see as good. Also, it's important to not own that which was inflicted upon you. Meaning, its not my fault. Belief in something doesn't alter it's (state of) existence. Also, I did not say treat them like somebody evil. If you choose to continue to allow them in your life, what is important is being aware of that decision and being honest about the nature of their behavior. Talking to somebody who believes in religion, someone who can feel the touch of god, someone who believes god talk to them in their dreams, these people live in a reality of their own. And we live on our reality. Is there a possibility of communicating with somebody who believes in everything that god says. Its like talking to someone who see that trees are blue because of an eye defect. Its impossible to have an argument with them to tell them that they have an eye defect. I can say I am more an agnostic because I accept to say that I dont know if there is something or not. But I suspect religion was used to control and that man wrote it. understand the truth of who they are, who you are, and the relationship you have with them from their perspective In the 10 commandments its says you shall obey and or honnor your mother and father+ In my culture there is a rule that younger sibling must respect and obey older sibling and respect their elders and parents. And Sons and daughters are expected to take care of their parents during old age. Obviously I am not born in this country but my parents and familly are. SO I suppose their perspective is the 10 commandments and hierachie. Meaning God is all powerful and you shall fear him whatever he decides. SO I am suppose to obey and not question in exchange for love etc. I've seen numerous start ups for local meet groups for this and that. If there's not one near you, try to set one up. You just never know when/where you're going to meet your best friend or spouse. Yeah I have often tought of creating groups, But I letted myself do things that society told me I should do, like going to school and becoming the best at something. Now that school will be over. I will be thinking about the meet groups. First I thought about creating a group about 20-40years old virgin but now that I know the source of this problem, might have different idea for a different group. But I think before I make a group I shall move out from home. The question is. SHould I listen to myself and save 4000$ which will require me to stay an extra year from the month of july or should I just move as fast as I can and try my best with as low as I have. I think I should live soon and have at least 1500$ in my bank as savings. So far I corrected and edited 1/4 of my text above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 what do you mean by to see these things and use it as an excuse rather than an explanation? I'll give an example from my own life. I've know that I was a victim of parental abuse for a long time. I used to use that knowledge as an excuse. Since then, I've learned the truth about the nature of my abuse, the effects it has on me, the way it shapes the way I think, talk, and act. So now, the very same claim that I was a victim of parental abuse is no longer an excuse, but an explanation. It's just a statement of fact. You mean there that some therapist will suggest me to stay with my familly no matter what? Yes. I personally would not value a therapist that advised keeping abusive people in your life. Meaning, its not my fault. Right. I'll use another example from my life. There's a difference in saying, "I am shy" and saying, "I was abused as a child in a way that I had to remain silent and isolated in order to survive." Both accurately describe the same thing, but assign responsibility very differently. Talking to somebody who believes in religion, someone who can feel the touch of god, someone who believes god talk to them in their dreams, these people live in a reality of their own. And we live on our reality. Is there a possibility of communicating with somebody who believes in everything that god says. Its like talking to someone who see that trees are blue because of an eye defect. Its impossible to have an argument with them to tell them that they have an eye defect. I can say I am more an agnostic because I accept to say that I dont know if there is something or not. I think there is a way to talk to somebody who believes in mysticism. It's the same way I would talk to somebody who claimed to be agnostic, so I'll talk to you about that and see if you find it convincing and/or adaptable to talking to theists. Let us suppose that Pluto had a moon. The way Earth, Pluto, and this moon move in space, we were never able to see it because Pluto was always between Earth and its moon. I describe this moon to you by saying that it is a sphere and a cube simultaneously. That it is a ball of fire and a block of ice simultaneously. Now, you could say that you don't know if there is a moon there or not, just as you say you don't know if there is a deity or not. However, take a moment to think about it and it quickly becomes clear that it's impossible. Nothing can be pure energy (fire) and a solid (ice) at the same time. Nothing came be a sphere and a cube at the same time. There are many ways of applying this same procedure to the consideration of a deity. For example, nobody can be all powerful and all knowing at the same time. If you have the power to change something, you cannot know what it will be; If you know what it will be, you are powerless to change it. We know that consciousness cannot exist without matter or energy. We know neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed. The list goes on. Most importantly, we know that if something can impress upon our senses, then we can measure it and we know that if something cannot impress upon our senses, there would be no difference between it existing and not existing. We also know that most people in the present who claim to believe in God, reject the hundreds of other gods man has described over the millenia. The idea that only one of something could exist is fantastical by itself. That it just happens to be the one they were told about as a child... it's a ludicrous claim. So much so that it would require a fantastical, ludicrous amount of proof to substantiate. If you're interested in this sort of thing, I highly recommend Stef's series on youtube called An Introduction to Philosophy. He starts from first principles and meticulously develops explanations of logic and reasoning and eventually builds to the disproof of deities, countries, and governments. It's long, but it leaves no stone unturned. You can also find a chopped up audio version in the link in my signature if you wanted to use it in an MP3 player. As for whether or not to stay around abusers in order to save up more money or get out sooner, I don't know. Both are going to have their advantages and disadvantages. I think to evade your abusers as soon as possible will provide greater mental health that having to live on a stricter budget would be worth it. However, I must disclose that I'm in the exact same situation myself and have chosen to stay where I am to save up more money. There are various reasons I'd rather not go into. The ones I will share is that I've done a lot of work in self-knowledge and have confronted my father on the subjects of philosophy, violence, coercion, their impact on my life, etc. What this means is that I have a very clear picture of who he is, who I am, and why. In other words, I'm well-prepared for the minor conflicts that do arise as a result of my choosing to continue living with him. It would still be better for me to leave in terms of my mental well-being. But if I do stay, it's much better to have an honest grip of the reality of who we are and the nature of our relationship. I hope this has been helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 OK, I want to take the time to process what was written. Obviously we are not going to have a debate here. But the reason why I stay agnostic is obviously I dont know as much as Some of the great scientist and philosophers. If you dont know a skill, you have to trust others who have the skills. But I am a sceptic soo, I need my own tools to see the truth. If I could answer the question How did humanity start, I could say yes there is no god or yes there is a god. But I dont have the skills nor the proof yet to know. But it seems unlikely that there is a god. But because I am not as educated, I still see the planet as mysterious. But I disregard all the gods and religion that was created because obviously these are guys who did not have science and were trying to describes phenomenum and also trying to control the people with power. My mother believes only her god is the real god, but she is ignorant about the other religions, she doesnt even know about the greek gods and indian gods. Only religion she knows are christianism, muslims and jews (obviously they did not educate kids to think freelee in her country) I think it was worst then north america. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 I'll give an example from my own life. I've know that I was a victim of parental abuse for a long time. I used to use that knowledge as an excuse. Since then, I've learned the truth about the nature of my abuse, the effects it has on me, the way it shapes the way I think, talk, and act. So now, the very same claim that I was a victim of parental abuse is no longer an excuse, but an explanation. It's just a statement of fact. Full Definition of EXCUSE 1 a : to make apology for b : to try to remove blame from 4 : to serve as excuse for : justify <nothing can excuse such neglect> ex: [*]Nothing can excuse that kind of rudeness. [*]Her father's illness excused her absence. ex·pla·na·tion noun ˌek-splə-ˈnā-shən : the act or process of making something clear or easy to understand : the act or process of telling, showing, or being the reason for or cause of something ex: [*]The professor's explanation was that the poem is really a parody. [*]____________________________________________________________________________ [*]So From what I understand, the excuse is. Its okey to be fat because I cant stop myself from eating a lot of pizza. Therefore its not myfault that I am fat because I cant stop myself [*]Explanation is. I am fat because I cant stop myself from eating a lot of pizza. And the explanation is, I cant stopo eating a lot of pizza Because My life is boring and I have a lot of money, And My life is boring and I have a lot of money because my parents gives me a lot of money as long as I stay home and do nothing. [*] Yes. I personally would not value a therapist that advised keeping abusive people in your life. I am always surprise that most people including me, Only consider abuse if it is extreme. Like getting hit for no reasons, being sexually touched, letting your kid starve. Insulting him everyday. And then when you see somebody who is abuse they tell you that you are very lucky and that you should feel bad from feeling abuse because that persons says I am in a bad position. Thats were my expression (stop whinning) comes from. It comes from people saying a parent being angry at all man and punishing their children for justified reason is not abusive and it is not abusive because the laws dont punish you for it. Thats why for now I am still confuse. Its like I just met morpheus but havent taken the red pill yet but that i feel something is not right. Ill answer the rest soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 Right. I'll use another example from my life. There's a difference in saying, "I am shy" and saying, "I was abused as a child in a way that I had to remain silent and isolated in order to survive." Both accurately describe the same thing, but assign responsibility very differently. Why does differentiating Shy and I have been abused do for me and do for the people who will cause me harm? There are many ways of applying this same procedure to the consideration of a deity. For example, nobody can be all powerful and all knowing at the same time. If you have the power to change something, you cannot know what it will be; If you know what it will be, you are powerless to change it. I will disagree for now that yes a god can know what will happen in the future and also as the power to change it but refuses to change it which would make this god an Evil God, An evil God which people see as good and in consequence they will do the bad things not knowing its bad. I We also know that most people in the present who claim to believe in God, reject the hundreds of other gods man has described over the millenia. The idea that only one of something could exist is fantastical by itself. That it just happens to be the one they were told about as a child... it's a ludicrous claim. So much so that it would require a fantastical, ludicrous amount of proof to substantiate. I can agree with this one if all these gods have different principle. I have always beign told by believers that all the gods are the same. And some religions seems to have similarity but probably some religions are not similar. Which would mean yes every catholic or muslim whatever is an Atheist by regusing all those different gods and philosophys As for whether or not to stay around abusers in order to save up more money or get out sooner, I don't know. Both are going to have their advantages and disadvantages. I think to evade your abusers as soon as possible will provide greater mental health that having to live on a stricter budget would be worth it. However, I must disclose that I'm in the exact same situation myself and have chosen to stay where I am to save up more money. There are various reasons I'd rather not go into. The ones I will share is that I've done a lot of work in self-knowledge and have confronted my father on the subjects of philosophy, violence, coercion, their impact on my life, etc. What this means is that I have a very clear picture of who he is, who I am, and why. In other words, I'm well-prepared for the minor conflicts that do arise as a result of my choosing to continue living with him. It would still be better for me to leave in terms of my mental well-being. But if I do stay, it's much better to have an honest grip of the reality of who we are and the nature of our relationship. I hope this has been helpful. Yeah if I leave, I can gather better self-knowledge and tools, and I can get confidence that I can support myself without my parents because right now I indirectly believe I need them and this is were the guilt probably comes from. If I can live on my own for 1-2 years I can believe that what they did for me was not much lets say. Yes it was helpful Let us suppose that Pluto had a moon. The way Earth, Pluto, and this moon move in space, I dont understand this part because I dont know what the sentence means exactly, I think its something in the syntax, If you can rephrase please.It can be helpful for me Let us suppose that Pluto had a moon. The way Earth, Pluto, and this moon move in space, we were never able to see it because Pluto was always between Earth and its moon. I describe this moon to you by saying that it is a sphere and a cube simultaneously. That it is a ball of fire and a block of ice simultaneously. I guess the hard part is that I am obviously talking with people who cant reason. Only god reason. But I must give them a chance to talk. and if it doesnt work I guess we will part ways forever . It is very difficult to seperate your self in the people you trust the most in the world. Who can you trust when the only person you trust is not trust worthty lol. I know I trust my therapist at least. But I can only trust myself interm of finance and food and shelter I guess. . I found these parts of the bible which tells me a bit what I am dealing with http://www.openbible.info/topics/spanking_children Proverbs 13:24 ESV / 28 helpful votes Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. Psalm 103:13 ESV / 22 helpful votes As a father shows compassion to his children, so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him. Colossians 3:20 ESV / 9 helpful votes Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. Proverbs 29:17 ESV / 9 helpful votes Discipline your son, and he will give you rest; he will give delight to your heart. and here is the worst and favorite ones to me Proverbs 23:13-14 ESV / 9 helpful votes Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. and Proverbs 22:6 ESV / 9 helpful votes Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it I am surprise that there is so many In a way I know that when my parents feel really sick they accept that god had a reason to punish them because god is always right. Therefore she tought her parents were always right and therefore I should but instead I feel confuse, because I was lucky to become smart. People you are free to join the conversation. and you do not have to read everything. Read the chapters that you need. And Now I corrected 2/3 of the syntax and grammar mistake of my first post I can had thats its getting very very very hard for me to stay home because I am now pretending that they are kind and I am accepting that they are supperior, Just so that I can save some money before I move out. If I act out now, I might get kicked out with no were to go but to depend on friends. to depend on someone else again. I must work hard and keep sane and obey for 1 year, or less hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Why does differentiating Shy and I have been abused do for me and do for the people who will cause me harm? What does differentiating between "my wallet is missing" and "that guy stole my wallet" do for you? It reveals that somebody has willfully acted against you. Saying "I am shy" owns that which was inflicted upon you and conceals the abuse. As for what it does to those who would cause you harm, I think it's more important to focus on you. If somebody has a difficult relationship with the truth or reality, that's not your responsibility to manage. Understanding the nature of your abuse doesn't mean you have to discuss it with your abusers. The important thing is just being honest with yourself and calling things by their proper names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 Wow what a clear analogy, Dsayers. Exemple: Monday Brendons reaches in his pocket to buy a lunch but his hands comes up empty. Because his wallet is not in his pocket anymore. Than he waits for the next pay and buys himself a new wallet same things happen. The cook then tells him your a (IRRESponsible) One day He feels really frustrated because he feels irresponsible because he looses his wallet all the time, and on top of that he gets hungry on monday because he as no lunch. One day he finds out That the cook was stilling is wallet while on the bus. No he feels good about himself because it wasnt is fault. He doesnt have to call himself Irresponsible like the cook(the abuser) called him . Now he seperates himself from the pick pocket the cook. Therefore his wallet never gets stolen, he can buy is lunch be happy and wont feel guilty. And when he tells the story to people instead of saying he is irresponsible he can say he was a victim of beign stolen. Obviously shyness is more complex because The abuser is difficult to recognize. and shyness is not something physical like a wallet. So if I understand If I can accept that I am not shy, and its not my fault I can feel better about myself, and I can avoid those people who call me shy in my life. I can now buy things like A job, A relationship, A happy life because I have my wallet in my pocket. I see. I really need to see a therapist but before I see a therapist I really need to move out next year. I feel that I am a trator or somebody weak conceiling my emotions and intention while living at home. But I must be like this until I can become stronger. At the same time I feel guilt for feeling like this. Feel guilt by saying that the one who gave me life and whom I trusted most betrayed me ( but thats life) So yes I need the therapist because I really need to be okey with the idea that I am equal with my parents and that I am equal with my boss and teacher because I dont grasp this concept yet. I still am in the concept that I must obey those in power. And I am still not grasping the concept that there is possibility of success without punishment. What will probly happen is one day I will decide not to give money to my mom, or I will decide not to see her if sick or I will decide not to go to family events. Then she will ask me why and call me an ingrate or whatever. Then Ill tell her what I know, she will tell me to fuck off and I guess then I will be sure who I am dealing with and my life can become easier to live. So How to grasp the concept that Children are Parents equal. How to deal with the argument that "Hey I am your mother therefore you must obey me, because if it wasnt for me you would not survive" I guess that if I am working for a boss, he is my superior because I want something from him, which is money, but I would not let my boss disrespect me but obviously for a parent its different. In my head how things work is that my mom as the right to be angry at me but I dont have the right to be angry at her because she is my mother. And I learned that as a kid. She told me I have no right to talk back to her arguments and I also have no right to defend myself againts her punishments. Wow I feel bad talking about my familly like that, knowing I did bad things too like, I dont help them shopping for foods and I dont clean the house much and I dont pay much of the house. oh and my therapist did use the word shy at first. And I told her I disagree, I am not shy, I am just reserved and dont like socialising. Then when she got to know me she did not use the word shy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 At the same time I feel guilt for feeling like this. Please be careful here. Your emotions cannot lie to you. Even when they are uncomfortable to bear, you need to try and listen to them because they're not wrong. The guilt you experience was put there by your abusers so that they can prevent you from escaping their abuse, even when they're not there. In this thread, you express shyness and a general challenge getting out there and making a life for yourself. Abusers need to isolate their victims because if you have friends or even just other people you can talk to, the abuse of your abusers will be revealed. How to deal with the argument that "Hey I am your mother therefore you must obey me, because if it wasnt for me you would not survive" This isn't an argument at all, it's an appeal to authority. You didn't ask to be born. She doesn't get extra credit for helping you to survive; To provide for you until such a time you're able to provide for yourself was an obligation SHE CREATED when she chose to have a kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 kozi, on 11 Mar 2014 - 6:57 PM, said: How to deal with the argument that "Hey I am your mother therefore you must obey me, because if it wasnt for me you would not survive" This isn't an argument at all, it's an appeal to authority. You didn't ask to be born. She doesn't get extra credit for helping you to survive; To provide for you until such a time you're able to provide for yourself was an obligation SHE CREATED when she chose to have a kid. I think until I meet, my therapist there is a few books I should read, about authority, and parenting. Stefans book but also other books. because I have developped a difficulty to trust people. It will take me some time to trust fully stefans theory. My hearts wants too. but there is a lot of things, political partys, causes and my parents which I trusted that ended up being false. I need to become a better critical thinker and learn to reason. I dont even know the difference between an argument and an appeal to authority. So my question to your answer on my quote is: What is a good son/daughter? What is the right or moral way to treat a mother. I have a desire to feel like I am a good person, a kind person but also someone confident. Obviously helping my abusers would give me that feeling. Is There a way to feel good and kind if I decide that I wont appeal to Obey her, for helping me survive. The first things that comes to my head now is, If I dont help my mother who helped me, that makes me a bad person. An Ingrate. The words Egoist, Ingrate, Selfish,ungreatful are words my mom used in the past, I need to not feel like these words, And I need to justify to myself that I am not selfish, ungrateful, egoist and ingrate and How can I say to her that she was wrong, without trying to bring anger in her(she will be angry anyway). I need to be able to erase the good and to remember the bad that was done. I am talking about guilt with my counselor now. And on top of that How can I see what I have done as right? I decided to study in school for 5 years and pretended during the last year that everything is ok. Eating the food she does for me and letting her wash my clothes. This problem goes further, once a friend who pays for my food sometimes, pressured me into payings is meal, I felt guilty and paid for him. But I did not owe him. This is a proof of me choosing people who wants to use abuse on me, and it also chooses that I always feel guilty. Each time somebody do something for me I always feel a slight guilt to help them. Helping people should come from the heart. Guilt is one of my biggest issue. I need to read books for sure, until I can move out and then get a therapist. I would like to move out to toronto or vancouver eventually. Now I am in montreal Oh ANd SHould I feel that I am lucky? Because I feel lucky. I know other friends of my mom whose parent abused them a lot harder, One of them got punch and hit with wood objects, the kid is really really shy now. One other kid had an uncle who malested her and the mother did nothing about it. Some kids are born in a very poor country my mom had the chance to leave for canada. SO when I check my own situation I am wow, I am really lucky!! but should I really feel lucky? and once with my therapist I should figure out, what results are because of my doing and which one comes from my parents or school this way I can stop doing self attack and find who stole my wallet instead of saying I lost it. I know I always wanted to go to dance or circus school but my parents were againts me dancing as a career. Recently I regretted this choice and said it was my fault I wasn't assertive an off, I was not strong an off. But now that I think of it. I dont have all the mental tools I have now and I was not encourage to do the goal. SO the anger should probly go to my parents, not to me. I must be careful not putting all the blame on someone else but also I must be careful not to put all the blame on me either. But as of now I know I have to much blame on myself and not an off on my parents or the states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I need to become a better critical thinker and learn to reason. I dont even know the difference between an argument and an appeal to authority. I'd like to again recommend Stef's An Introduction to Philosophy series. It awakened me to how much I couldn't think as a result of abuse and propaganda. What is the right or moral way to treat a mother. Well "right" way and moral way to treat people are different considerations. On top of that, one is subjective while the other is objective. The moral way to treat anybody is to not violate their property rights, which includes their body, mind, time, and effort. I say anybody because "mother" isn't fundamentally different from "human." The definition of mother is female that has successfully reproduced. That's it. It's not a skill. it's not even a reflection of the present. What the right way to treat people is subjective as stated above. I think a fair approach is to treat everybody with respect at first, and then treat them as they treat you. By this, I do not mean abuse somebody who abuses you. However, if somebody is abusive or abrasive or inconsiderate, etc, I don't think you would owe them things like honesty, friendship, your time, etc. I'm really very sorry that we live in a society that pushes proximity = virtue (family is necessary) so hard that it's difficult for people in your situation to see that adult relationships are voluntary. Please understand that I'm not saying cut her out of your life. I'm saying that your feelings of being a bad person for just considering an abuser to be an abuser is a significant feature of your abuse. Oh ANd SHould I feel that I am lucky? Because I feel lucky. I know other friends of my mom whose parent abused them a lot harder Absolutely not. Like saying, "I am shy," casting your abuse in a positive light only serves to conceal the evil and protect your abuser. Does your mother abuse people her own size? Does your mother abuse people who are free to stay away from her? Does your mother abuse people that don't have to have her in their life just to stay alive? If the answer to ANY of these questions is no, then your mother took advantage of a very fragile relationship specifically because it was fragile. That's wretched and there's nothing to gain from imagining how it could have been worse. "It could have been worse," is another way society abuses victims by marginalizing their experience, avoiding the problem, and blaming the victim for noticing that they had been victimized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 She did use the service of man(repairs) who seemed to show sexual interest in her or her daughter. she used their interest as a way to get the services without exchanging sex. ( I guess thats manipulation) and she advices some of the younger ones to do the same. She made us understand that it was done so that we can get food and survival. so it was for the good. My dad has been shamed and had to take guilt, but he might have done something wrong. She does use shaming on kids of friends of the familly if the kid dont obey their mothers. Women seems to have a free pass. but that might be me projecting and not telling the truth but anyway. recently it seems she doesnt do the manipulation anymore I suppose its because she got really into god more these days. Other than that I did not see her abuse any people really. I never saw her hit someone else with a belt, unless it was permitted by the other mother. I never saw her punch someone. I never saw her yell on people except for the reasons above, like for my dad or to other kids. So yes she did stuff to people her own size but very very rarely. But people her own size down owe them obediance, except I guess my dad who dodge a bullet I guess. And really The biggest obstacle for me now is Fear. I am afraid to be insulted and yelled at like when I was a kid. Am afraid that I am not able to take care of my ownself and be independent. When I was afraid to date girl or to be blunt and bold about sex, I did it despise the fear when I wanted to ride bicycle on the street I did it despise the worries of my parents and other people When I was afraid to study a field of work(illustration) that is in low demands, I did it despise the fear. When I wanted to disobey my parents and sleep at friends houses and party, I did it despise the fear but with guilt. Now To comfront my parents or ignore them is the scariest things. But I suppose therapy and reading book and listening to stefan molyneux and users on the board I should take a few barriers off. And hopefully I will be able to see clear. cuz I am still confuse and afraid. When my conselour told me my mothers is this and dad( egoist and selfish) I tried to not see it as an insult but it was a really big shock to me, and it is still hard to accept. I will move out far away because I am around to many people who believe what is happening is good. I think this is only in the black community but its not only a race thing. the only thing ethnicity had is the culture+the religion on top of bad parenting I want to call the show but I dont want my parents to hear me talking about this at home, not until I am ready. I dont have much wit and speed when people tell me things I hate. I usualy have to ignore them because I only come to an argument againts them after 3hours of thinking. Once I got insulted by a girl and it took me 1 day to realise I was insulted I have been called add or adhd sometimes and Also called slow at learning, the reason for my bad grades except in arts and fitness. I have no idea of what career i will do but I have the skills for one career now. but I dont want to go into this career because it would require so much of my time that I wont have a hobby or time for therapy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 One big question is If I leave and cut communication, I must be able to tell myself the truth. Who is at blame is it her fault because she did not give me things I value like, equality for a son who is an adult, and freedom, as well as having philosophical differences to which I had to pretend to be ok with. vs I She could blame myself and I could blame my self As a selfish person and ungrateful and not knowing my place in the hierarchie. Of course me beign an open person is dangerous because I am capable of seeing my blame or their blame but I tend more to blame myself and lose all my debates or arguments. Or sometimes I take the agnostic/minarchist position saying well we are both at blame. (thats one we learn at school) (when people say something is good and not good yes and no) I suppose in this case only 1 person can be at blame and I must choose wisely and look at the evidence. but that is a dangerous battle someone who can admit to their blame vs somebody who cant admit their blame My counselor told me today that, for one I am very smart to find out a lot of this thing and I am courageous of walking in a path that is somewhat dangerous and difficult. He told me that parents and children are equal when the kid is 18 years old. before that obviously the adult somewhat as total autority I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Who is at blame is it her fault because she did not give me things I value Well she's not required to give you something just because you value it. However, she does have to not force things on you that are harmful, same as in her relationship with everybody else on the planet. And I would argue that by choosing to bring you into this world, she does have a commitment to at least take an interest in WHAT you value in order to model for you that you are not below anybody and how to be curious in regards to other people (empathy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irwin Leonardo Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 hey! I live in victoria, bc.. its easier to find a job here and the cost of living is slightly lower.. and the people is nicer.. When she says that ask her back with.. " so.. you own me then? " so.. " I owe my life to you then? " .. "am I allowed to think for my self? or should I dedicate my life to please you? " I kid you not, they wont know what to say.. those are honest questions, you will not change their minds, what their response will be should tell you the kind of relationship you have with them.. it would also tell you if you actually had one on the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 thanks dsayers hey! I live in victoria, bc.. its easier to find a job here and the cost of living is slightly lower.. and the people is nicer.. Have you lived in montreal also, its cool if you can compare both. Or were did you live befor bc victoria, which city are you comparing it too. When she says that ask her back with.. " so.. you own me then? " so.. " I owe my life to you then? " .. "am I allowed to think for my self? or should I dedicate my life to please you? " I kid you not, they wont know what to say.. those are honest questions, you will not change their minds, what their response will be should tell you the kind of relationship you have with them.. it would also tell you if you actually had one on the first place. this could be great to try. Recently My cousin got married to a man. Her mother hates that man. The man wants to move to europe, whitch his wife and is soon to be 1 year old kid, take a plane and leave. The mom is mad. My Mom says that the wife, my cousin is wrong because she should stay here in montreal to help her mom pay the house that they bought in the past. My aunt is trying to sell her house but she cant. no body buys it.She works 2 jobs to keep the place. She bought the house with her daughter, Her daughter sold her shares. My mom says that the daughter should sacrifice her selfish need of going to live in europe to help her mother. The husband goes to europe because he as a great job offer which will help to support is family(wife and 1 kid) And probably because he knows his step mother hates him so he might aswell live far. I told my mom, ''Hey its her life she can do what she wants with it'' she said I am wrong a kid must help her mother, because the mother sacrificed all her life for her daughter, the mother is intilted to the help for all the sacrifices shes as done as a mother'' I did not agree nore disagree, conversation ended. I did not want to answer but it was to strong in me. I want to avoid saying what is on my mind because I am trying to save money for 1 year to get my appartment. I need to be obediant and subserviant until i get an off money to leave. But in this situation I believe the daughters is right right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fleming Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I told my mom, ''Hey its her life she can do what she wants with it'' she said I am wrong a kid must help her mother, because the mother sacrificed all her life for her daughter, the mother is intilted to the help for all the sacrifices shes as done as a mother'' I have to say this is the usual parental bullshit. Why would you sacrifice your life if you didn't have to? Nobody has to have children. The truth is that parents want children for themselves, not for their kids. They want the lifestyle which goes with it. They are told all the time that children will make their lives complete and make them happy. Parents have kids to make themselves happy. How many times have you heard people give unhappy couples the advice that "you should have kids"? Then what almost always happens is that the children do not make them happy. If you are not happy within yourself, someone else cannot make you happy and it is certainly not the child's job to do so. So then what invariably happens is the parents try to drag the children down into their pit of misery. As the saying goes "misery loves company". They know that the children are not going to want to be around them when they are old and miserable so they drum up all these ideas of obligation to try and guilt the kids into continuing to see them as adults. Parental behaviour on the whole (and this is obviously not true of all parents, but generally speaking) in today's society is disgraceful. There's a saying that you can treat your kids as either "people who are little" or as "pets who are human". Most treat their kids as the latter. You are their property. They own you! And they will treat you however they like and you can't do anything about it. Or so they think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 The truth is that parents want children for themselves, not for their kids. They want the lifestyle which goes with it. They are told all the time that children will make their lives complete and make them happy. Parents have kids to make themselves happy. How many times have you heard people give unhappy couples the advice that "you should have kids"?yeah. in the old days it used to be ok the be threated like a pet but with technoology and kids becoming smarter things are changing. -Well Said Mike Fleming. Yeah kids will make you happy, sometime I feel like having kids would make me less lonely but because of the finantial crisis and me not wanting kids anyway, I reason out of this. In my parents time unfortunately it was an obligation to have kids I guess. Especially for christian. There's a saying that you can treat your kids as either "people who are little" or as "pets who are human". Most treat their kids as the latter. You are their property. They own you! And they will treat you however they like and you can't do anything about it. Or so they think. Strong comparison The guilt is hard. like mine she maid bad finantial decision to makes us survive, credit cards and debts, because she had no education on how to make this work, her own parents did not teach her. and now she expect us to have gratitude. Recently my dad was sick, it was not a big sickness it is an operation for 1 eye. I did not feel like seeing him because he already had is other son going with him. My mom obliged me to go to see him even though my mom hates him. she probably did that to educate me to do the same with her when the times come. What I am worried the most is why am I having this feeling. Why am i feeling obligated to help instead of loving from my heart. why am I not kind and selfless toward my parents? are is my reaction normal. I mean in the animal world obviously the kids just live and the parent dies on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fleming Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 -Well Said Mike Fleming. Yeah kids will make you happy, sometime I feel like having kids would make me less lonely but because of the finantial crisis and me not wanting kids anyway, I reason out of this. In my parents time unfortunately it was an obligation to have kids I guess. Especially for christian. I wouldn't call it an obligation as such, although there was certainly pressure to. There are couples who didn't have kids even in the older age groups. The guilt is hard. like mine she maid bad finantial decision to makes us survive, credit cards and debts, because she had no education on how to make this work, her own parents did not teach her. and now she expect us to have gratitude. Recently my dad was sick, it was not a big sickness it is an operation for 1 eye. I did not feel like seeing him because he already had is other son going with him. My mom obliged me to go to see him even though my mom hates him. she probably did that to educate me to do the same with her when the times come. What I am worried the most is why am I having this feeling. Why am i feeling obligated to help instead of loving from my heart. why am I not kind and selfless toward my parents? are is my reaction normal. I mean in the animal world obviously the kids just live and the parent dies on their own. You aren't feeling that, you have been indoctrinated that way. Your feeling is that you don't want to do these things. But your indoctrinated brain and societal peer pressure is making you feel guilty for feeling the way you do. I'm not going to pretend it's easy to get past it. It was a long, hard road for me. The brainwashing goes deep. The question you need to ask yourself is "what can I live with in the long run? Can I face another 10, 20, 30, 40 years of having to deal with all this? What effect will it have on my life?" Personally, I just got to a point in my mid-30's where I couldn't cope any more. I looked back at all the wreckage it had caused in my life and felt incredibly sad that I'd lost all those years through doing what society wanted and being a "good son". The final moment came for me when I tried to imagine, just vividly imagine, that I had received a phone call that my parents had died in a car crash. I really tried to put myself in the moment, like it had really happened and then asked myself honestly how did I feel about it. It was like a huge wave of relief crashed over me. I breathed out "oh, thank god they're gone". And i saw all the potential in life, the freedom to be who I wanted to be and how wonderful life could truly be. It truly felt like I had discovered freedom. Obviously I didn't actually kill them, but they are effectively dead to me now and I feel like I'm truly living life for the first time in my life. If they loved me and cared about me the way they claimed to then there is no reason why I would feel such relief at their "death". Deep down I knew the truth and that they were lying to me and using me, but I denied it for years and years. It was an inconvenient truth considering the society I lived in. You need to get in touch with your true feelings. You need to ask yourself honestly how you feel. People who I care about, I am horrified at even the thought of trying to imagine them dead. Your feelings know the truth. You just need to ask them honestly and go from there. But like I said, getting in touch with the real you that has been suppressed all your life, won't be easy and it's highly unlikely that your current social group/family will be happy about it. Do you think you can live a dishonest life? Because that is what is being demanded of you. If you think you can then by all means try it. Ultimately, many of us have been down this road and there are no easy answers. All we can do is talk about the things we did and hope it provides some help for what is a trying period in anyone's life. Remember, the brain is a physical thing and you can't just change the habits of a lifetime overnight any more than you can easily develop big muscles after a lifetime of sitting on the couch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozi Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 yeah i see what you mean. and the media doest not help when it says things like 40% of kids or selfish and giving up their parents in nursing homes, the new generation is bad! what they dont say is that maybe the parent is in fault in this. I visit my dad once a month or once every 2 months and he wants me to visit him more. I dont because when I meet him it is to work help him in is job which I hate, I feel exausted after and we have nothing in common to talk about. and i hate his authority and my half brother complains to me about my dad he complains on how much he as to deal with the mans authority everywork day. recently he asks me to do some work for him probly for free. I was going to accept but I will probly lie about it and dont do it. and if he insist I will just say I dont want to do it point blank. Of course I will feel guilty but nobody says it would be easy right. I think that if my dad was not calling me I could be happy because it means I would have to deal with decisions. For my mom I would feel sad but also free. My best solution for me is to move far away. By moving far away I give an excuse as to why I cant call them or visit them often. It is the best thing I can do beside dealing with them everyday. Of course I am a bit of an hypocrite because I let my dad give me money and I let my mom cook me food and wash my cloths now at age 25. but as soon as school is over this summer. I will do my own things, save money and move to a different town. cuz staying in the same city s going to be easier but not optimal. What do you think about moving out far. I want to go as far as vancouver or toronto like irwin said. That would put me 5-7hours of distance. I know it wont be substitue for dealing with them but it can make the process smoother. while away I can do extra therapy and deal with them on the phone how can I honestly tell my dad that I dont want to do artwork with him because I hate that carreer that I studyied in and I am too busy. THat makes me feel selfish because. It means I always only think about me, I want others to do things for me but I dont want to do for others. Well I do things for others but it usualy feels lke a sacrifice. but I feel on rare occasion happy to help. I am wondering if I should not call myself Selfish in a negative way and just live with it. maybe it would be more honest? My cousin the one who is married, is often accused of helping her friends more then her own familly. For some reason I feel the same, I help my familly but I dont do it from my heart but with friends I do. this makes me a selfish to my parents but selfless to my friends. and do you have anything I could read on the indoctrination. I think i need to understsand how much indoctrinated I am lol. is it even possible to break free from the indoctrination. Mysister is shoulder deep into it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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