Mark Carolus Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 “Our economy is based on spending billions to persuade people that happiness is buying things, and then insisting that the only way to have a viable economy is to make things for people to buy so they'll have jobs and get enough money to buy things.” Philip Slater With or without government, with or without coercion, with or without violence and with or without anarcho capitalistic markets, I am 100% sure this will always be true, as long as we have a market...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greekredemption Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 This is one of the things Marx described as a contradiction inherent in capitalism. And free marketeers see this as a method of achieving incremental growth. I suppose there's no controversy in that quote, but its implications are interesting. The question is, I think: is it good? This is distinct from asking 'is it right?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endostate Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 "Our social life is based on spending billions of energy units to persuade potential friends that hapiness is being friendly, and then insisting that the only way to have a viable social life is to make oneself attractive for people to be interested in so they'll get enough energy units to be friendly." Endostate With or without the government, with or without coercion, with or without violence and with or without anarcho capitalistic markets, I am 100% sure this will always be true, as long as we have free association...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
square4 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 “Our economy is based on spending billions to persuade people that happiness is buying things An economy is based on division of labor and mutual beneficial trade transactions. If all advertisements that equate hapiness with material ownership would stop at this moment, would people stop buying food, houses, cars, computers, smart-phones, etc.? I don't think so. Arguably, a part of the economy is based on persuading people to buy useless things or to live materialistically, but not all of the economy is based on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovePrevails Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 it is a misconception that the fundamental ingredient of the free market is commerce it's actually simply the choice to engage in commerce or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carolus Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Buy n Large (BnL) is a fictional company of the WALL•E universe.[1]WALL•E himself is a Buy n Large product. In preparation for marketing the movie, Disney purchased a domain called Buy n Large in order to create a viral Buy n Large website for promotional purposes. Now, the domain re-directs visitors to the official WALL•E website. So yea, not sure what the point of this picture is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carolus Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 That was just a pun, felt like posting it. It is basically how i see a totally free market ending up in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 That was just a pun, felt like posting it. It is basically how i see a totally free market ending up in. Ok, great. I just wanted to make sure that you and others realized that the image says nothing about the realities of the world and everything about how you view the world. As long as we were on the same page, then its all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 our economy is based on eating people need to work to eat. people will need to eat, as long as human systems need food Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carolus Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 our economy is based on eating people need to work to eat. people will need to eat, as long as human systems need food While I do work, I most certainly do not need it to eat, I live in an Earthship. If i wasn't forced to pay property taxes, I actually could live quite well without any money.... untill one of my solar panels breaks, or my water filtering system fails or something. O and i need to pay for my computer and the internet i need to type this on this board with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 how well is the earthship working? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carolus Posted March 22, 2014 Author Share Posted March 22, 2014 I have 3 battery banks with an automatic switch, making sure i always have at least 2 fully loaded battery banks. I have never used more than 25% of battery bank number 2, number 3 has never been put to use and is just sitting there fully loaded. I grow fruit and vegetables in a hydroponic greenhouse and even have tomato and cucumber plants in my front room. My water is purified by a 3 stage filtering system and it comes from rain water, with a secondary backup taking water out of a large pond (which i never needed though). Grey water (sink water, shower water and other types of water that has already been used) is used in the toilet. Black water (after the toilet), is dumped into a cistern with a glass top, which causes it to promote bacteria growth, making the water usable in the outside garden. I don't really need heating, but i do have an air-conditioning system, that can be used on demand, but I never really had to use it. While i don't have enough money to buy a Tesla Model S yet, the house could actually provide me with enough energy to power such a car and then some. I consider my life quite fulfilling and i use about 1/20th the amount of resources the average American uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 interesting looking at how much trouble government has given the inventor of earthships, and that would not happen in free market economy. you did buy the earthship, and it sounds like your happy with it. looks like earthships are a great way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carolus Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 interesting looking at how much trouble government has given the inventor of earthships, and that would not happen in free market economy. you did buy the earthship, and it sounds like your happy with it. looks like earthships are a great way to go. Well, it is very true that (especially in my country) government is making it quite hard, but at the same time, it was also the government that forced the electricity companies to pay people for delivering electricity back into the grid. About 10 years ago, back when solar panels were not that popular yet, i convinced my pops to get solar panels (something he didn't regret till he died 5 months ago). Back then, there were no laws forcing the electricity companies to do this and in fact, none of them actually did (To be fair, they did have contracts for farmers with large wind-mills, but this was electricity delivery on a gigantic scale). So in short, anyone that made more electricity during the day than they needed to run their appliances, was basically shafted. Of course, it is debatable that the free market would eventually get there as well, so i can't really use that as a way to legitimize any form of government (just so you know ). I actually didn't buy the house, I built it with a friend of mine who at this time still lives with me, until we are finished building his earthship. About 80% of all the materials used are recycled materials, some of them I actually got money for, in stead of having to pay for them. The other 20% is very expensive, they are solar panels, water purification filters, wiring, the cistern tank, water tanks (quite huge) and plaster for the walls (might miss one or two thing there, but those are the most important ones). The problem with the government in this country, is that you are forced to be connected to the gas, water, sewage and electricity network by law. Funny thing is, I don't even use water, gas and the sewage system at all (only the electricity network comes in handy for me, because i actually make about 5 Euros a day on the extra electricity I make) but i do have to pay for them..... it's retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 The other 20% is very expensive, they are solar panels, water purification filters, wiring, the cistern tank, water tanks (quite huge) and plaster for the walls (might miss one or two thing there, but those are the most important ones). I suspect your issue is not with markets, but sustainability. Without markets, all the above you mentioned would never have existed. To be clearer about what markets actually are, we ourselves are engaging in a market of ideas on this very thread. Markets are merely mediums of exchanging value between individuals (voluntarily). The only way you can stop markets is by force. Markets are quite naturally created amongst individuals as they negotiate the things they either need or desire throughout their lives with each other. As the lack of sustainability occurs in a product the price will increase exponentially dependent on that lack of available resources. At some point the price will become so high that people wont bother and look for an alternative resource. I really suggest reading Henry Hazlit's book, 'Economics In one Lesson'.. Look, I even have a free copy for you. http://mises.org/books/economics_in_one_lesson_hazlitt.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carolus Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 Markets are quite naturally created amongst individuals as they negotiate the things they either need or desire throughout their lives with each other. Things they desire, this is exactly what I am talking about. I get the market and the market in itself is good, however, when people can be manipulated psychologically into wanting things for whatever reason, you will always have a unnecessary part of the market. This does not mean that these parts of the market are 100% bad, not at all, but it cannot be said that they are vitally important, the only thing they are vitally important for, is for keeping people employed (unnecessarily as in not technically needed to supply one with a very decent way of living). I think that, if advertising in any way shape or form was illegal, we would have a vastly different world right now. Whether this is better or worse can be debated, but I feel it would actually be much better. I am not saying the way I (and many like me) live should be forced upon everybody else, but I am living proof that you can live a fulfilling life without infinitely desiring bucket loads of stuff that you in actuality rarely use. I have a computer and I buy a new one about every 4 years, I have a 1986 Toyota MR2 which i keep in good running order and I have a few things here and there which need replacement from time to time, but other than that, i have absolutely nothing i would require money or a market for. The average human being has (according to the latest studies) about 70 up to 90% stuff they hardly use, whereas I have about 5% at most and am thoroughly happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I quite agree that some people are what you might call 'materialistic'. That they often desire useless stuff, stuff they may never use even. That is more an individuals psychological issue that some advertisers take advantage of. Although I will say, it's not the advertisers that create the unnecessary desire, they are merely meeting a market demand and expectation that already exists. But personal desires in of themselves there is nothing wrong with. So long as they don't harm someone or are consensual, they are part of what makes us human. For instance, I don't need this tablet I'm using right now to sustain myself. But it fulfills a desire in me and brings me great pleasure. Your desire to live in your 'earthworks' environment, creating your own sustainable energy is clearly something you deeply desire, because it makes you happy. Desire is a subjective need that comes from wanting to experience the world in a certain way. If we all lived by needs alone, we'd be a terribly boring and bored lot. Anything that people advocate for that involves 'banning' or making 'illegal', requires men with guns to enforce. That would be a tyranny by definition and not something that is morally justifiable. Case in point we have the current 'war on drugs', an unmitigated disaster of course. Achieving consensus voluntarily would be the only ethical way to have this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 The problem with the government in this country, is that you are forced to be connected to the gas, water, sewage and electricity network by law. Funny thing is, I don't even use water, gas and the sewage system at all (only the electricity network comes in handy for me, because i actually make about 5 Euros a day on the extra electricity I make) but i do have to pay for them..... it's retarded. in the free market, and connections would be voluntary and by contract. you would not need to be connected to the electricity network it the first place, so you could choose not to if the company does not want to pay you for the resources you generate. one would only pay or be paid for what one actualy uses. looks like now you are forced to be connected to the electrictricity network in the first place, so them being forced to pay you just creates a ishue that would be a non ishue in the free market, where you would choose to be connected if offered a reason to be connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carolus Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 While I do work, I most certainly do not need it to eat, I live in an Earthship. If i wasn't forced to pay property taxes, I actually could live quite well without any money.... untill one of my solar panels breaks, or my water filtering system fails or something. O and i need to pay for my computer and the internet i need to type this on this board with. How did you get an earthship for free? “Our economy is based on spending billions to persuade people that happiness is buying things, and then insisting that the only way to have a viable economy is to make things for people to buy so they'll have jobs and get enough money to buy things.” Philip Slater With or without government, with or without coercion, with or without violence and with or without anarcho capitalistic markets, I am 100% sure this will always be true, as long as we have a market...... Define "market". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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