Would you say women are more shallow than men ?

[aFireInside]

If you had to generalize would you say this is the case? 

 

I was talking to sister about this and we both agreed that they are. 

 

 

I was just curious about what you guys & girls think .

 

 

 

 

The most interesting thing about this is that we all know men can be shallow, 

I choose not to hang out around those guys. But with women they advertise themselves as

wanting a "nice" guy when in reality they are looking for the good-looking or rich guy...

 

I don't think there is anything immoral with being shallow but lets be honest about it. 

[MMX2010]

I dunno what you mean by "shallow" - but I definitely think women are much more "resistant" to the findings of evolutionary biology. 

 

Men are portrayed as aggressive, unfeeling, uncaring entities who only care about banging as many women as possible.  But when both men and women hear this, they conclude that this is bad, and that society would improve if men learned to overcome this natural tendency. 

 

Women are portrayed as gold-digging, lazy, parasites who want to work as little as possible in exchange for resources.  But when both men and women hear this, they recoil in horror at the "misogyny" and "unfounded speculation" behind these conclusions.  Hence, women are much more "resistant" to these findings - (if that's what you mean by "shallow"). 

[dsayers]

I too would like a definition of shallow. You mentioned women liking men for money, but there are biologically necessary reasons for this. Which is not to marginalize the segment who do it out of laziness and decadence rather than the protection of their offspring.

[aFireInside]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shallow

[In the belly of the beast]

My own working definition of "shallow" is "lacking intellectual and emotional depth".  This definition is itself a bit shallow, in that it does not specify what exactly constitutes intellectual and emotional depth, but I think it does the job as a starting point.

 

Would you folks say that shallowness and immaturity could be considered synonymous?

 

I'd say that the vast majority of people are quite shallow, simply because they have never been taught to be otherwise, and indeed it is often socially and economically dangerous to bring in any significant depth to most relationships, as you have undoubtedly experienced.  Although the average man is quite shallow, he has a modest incentive to develop himself in his younger years, if nothing else based on his need to win over a woman (if he is straight).  Since most (straight) young women of passable looks or better have the option to sit back and let various men try to woo them over, they have less of an incentive to develop themselves.

[JohnH.]

My own working definition of "shallow" is "lacking intellectual and emotional depth".  This definition is itself a bit shallow, in that it does not specify what exactly constitutes intellectual and emotional depth, but I think it does the job as a starting point.

 

Would you folks say that shallowness and immaturity could be considered synonymous?

 

I'd say that the vast majority of people are quite shallow, simply because they have never been taught to be otherwise, and indeed it is often socially and economically dangerous to bring in any significant depth to most relationships, as you have undoubtedly experienced.  Although the average man is quite shallow, he has a modest incentive to develop himself in his younger years, if nothing else based on his need to win over a woman (if he is straight).  Since most (straight) young women of passable looks or better have the option to sit back and let various men try to woo them over, they have less of an incentive to develop themselves.

 

Your definition is generally what I think of when people say shallow.  Based on that definition, my experience has been that most people I encounter, regardless of sex, tend to be pretty shallow.  However, since I am a man, I have more in common with the shallow topics that men tend to bring up which can cause me to underestimate their true level of shallowness.  

[In the belly of the beast]

On a related note, it seems that a lot, or even most, people drawn to FDR tend to have experienced social isolation and other significant difficulties in their lives (depression, social and/or general anxiety, motivational difficulties in school and/or at work, boredom in their relationships, etc.).  Do you think that it was these difficulties fitting in and other challenges in their lives that provided the necessary motivation to be significantly curious about the fundamentals in human interactions, and the societies these interactions give rise to?

[aFireInside]

On a related note, it seems that a lot, or even most, people drawn to FDR tend to have experienced social isolation and other significant difficulties in their lives (depression, social and/or general anxiety, motivational difficulties in school and/or at work, boredom in their relationships, etc.).  Do you think that it was these difficulties fitting in and other challenges in their lives that provided the necessary motivation to be significantly curious about the fundamentals in human interactions, and the societies these interactions give rise to?

I think you summed it up very well. Anyways I think your definition is correct and I do think that shallowness is immature.I use to be shallow and my relationships where immature they never developed into anything serious. After years in Fdr I started challenging my shallowness until I changed, and I had this perception that only men are shallow and women care more about feelings . But I was wrong Ps I posted a link to a definition on top . I think it does a very good job of describing what I meant by shallow

[cynicist]

I don't think men are less shallow, just more honest about it. Women have this image of purity in society that they need to protect so they lie.

[aFireInside]

I don't think men are less shallow, just more honest about it. Women have this image of purity in society that they need to protect so they lie.

 

 

I agree with you, thats what i found most interesting. 

[cab21]

i think a man would judge more by looks in general

a woman more by status in general

 

case specific, how many young men are seen with 80 year old women of status, vs how many young  women are seen with 80 year old men with status?

[aFireInside]

I agree both Men and Women are shallow. (in general) 

 

I think we are wired that way, it takes allot of self-knowledge and virtue to consciously make a decision to ignore the monkey brain. 

[dsayers]

Change ignore to override and I think that's a good point.

[PatrickC]

No, given your definition Ivan. I would say both men and woman have the capacity for shallowness. If it's 'resources' for the ladies it can certainly be 'beauty' for many men. My take on all this frankly, is that there is nothing intrinsically wrong (immoral) with wanting resources or beauty. Just be conscious of it and make sure it doesn't dictate entirely the final decision about whom you have a relationship with (it's only a factor).

 

However, I do understand the 'annoying' factor for men, insofar as they have to work towards building those resources. Whereas a beautiful women, well she's just beautiful because of unchosen and unworked for genes. However, be that as it may I still think conscious philosophical women can certainly rise above their natures, however beautiful they are.

[Mishelle]

I believe both genders have equal capacity for shallowness.

 

In school I used to think girls were more shallow, and because of this most of my relationship were with guys.  When I came to terms with the amount of time I was spending in my own shallowness, I realized I preferred guys because their shallowness was more like my own!  I liked smokin' n' jokin' n banter n lame arguments about politics and religion, not shopping and family and petty drama.

 

"Since most (straight) young women of passable looks or better have the option to sit back and let various men try to woo them over, they have less of an incentive to develop themselves."

 

Girls DEVELOP their looks--this is something I see very ignored or misunderstood in these conversations, including sometimes a critique of Stef when he talks of beauty and how easy beautiful girls have it.  There are some problems with this theory: 

 

1. most girls, even beautiful ones, do not know they are beautiful until they are sexually pursued by boys, when they then compare themselves to magazine photos of airbrushed models.  Cindy Crawford and Julia Roberts both called themselves ugly girls. 

 

2.  the most beautiful girls get lots of unwanted attention and because of this are more likely to find themselves in positions with boys/men that permanently scar them and makes her want to be invisible and using various means to do so, like gaining lots of weight, or otherwise 'letting herself go'

 

3.  I've known plenty of "beautiful" women who work VERY hard to get and stay that way--this is not just genetics, it's learning to employ all the smoke and mirrors, and it's not as easy as it looks from the outside!  All the cosmetics, the staying in shape, eating well, coloring the hair, doing the nails, knowing the styles, ACTING attractive--these aren't just further "gifts" of beauty.  Trust me, she works at it.  WE ALL WORK AT IT until we give up and admit time has us beat.  Then we get plastic surgery, or finally find friends who can see inner-beauty

 

 

 

 

 

[aFireInside]

I believe both genders have equal capacity for shallowness.

 

In school I used to think girls were more shallow, and because of this most of my relationship were with guys.  When I came to terms with the amount of time I was spending in my own shallowness, I realized I preferred guys because their shallowness was more like my own!  I liked smokin' n' jokin' n banter n lame arguments about politics and religion, not shopping and family and petty drama.

 

"Since most (straight) young women of passable looks or better have the option to sit back and let various men try to woo them over, they have less of an incentive to develop themselves."

 

Girls DEVELOP their looks--this is something I see very ignored or misunderstood in these conversations, including sometimes a critique of Stef when he talks of beauty and how easy beautiful girls have it.  There are some problems with this theory: 

 

1. most girls, even beautiful ones, do not know they are beautiful until they are sexually pursued by boys, when they then compare themselves to magazine photos of airbrushed models.  Cindy Crawford and Julia Roberts both called themselves ugly girls. 

 

2.  the most beautiful girls get lots of unwanted attention and because of this are more likely to find themselves in positions with boys/men that permanently scar them and makes her want to be invisible and using various means to do so, like gaining lots of weight, or otherwise 'letting herself go'

 

3.  I've known plenty of "beautiful" women who work VERY hard to get and stay that way--this is not just genetics, it's learning to employ all the smoke and mirrors, and it's not as easy as it looks from the outside!  All the cosmetics, the staying in shape, eating well, coloring the hair, doing the nails, knowing the styles, ACTING attractive--these aren't just further "gifts" of beauty.  Trust me, she works at it.  WE ALL WORK AT IT until we give up and admit time has us beat.  Then we get plastic surgery, or finally find friends who can see inner-beauty

 

 

I think that, women do develop their beauty but to attract  what kind of man ? (think about that) hint: a man who is shallow himself 

 

because if this woman develops her beauty and not her mind as much, then a man who likes her likes her for her looks ! (in general)

 

 

And in general i think this is a perception that women have. The media makes them feel ugly when in reality the average guy thinks they are attractive.

Im not impressed with girls with make up and high heals...etc 

Most of the things that women do is to impress other women. 

 

 

Im not saying don't worry about your look at all but some of these things to me seem like they are not even to attract men. 

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Anyways sorry to generalize all women i don't mean to... its pure conjecture 

 

 

 

I think women need more confidence, since culture tells them that they need to be passive. 

A man has no self-esteem, if he doesn't get girls to like him. If he stays passive. 

And i think its the same for women. 

[Mishelle]

I think that, women do develop their beauty but to attract  what kind of man ? (think about that) hint: a man who is shallow himself 

 

All men, all people, respond to beauty!

 

because if this woman develops her beauty and not her mind as much, then a man who likes her likes her for her looks ! (in general)

 

Few men appreciate a woman's mind, it's a cost/benefit, pure and simple.

 

And in general i think this is a perception that women have. The media makes them feel ugly when in reality the average guy thinks they are attractive.

Im not impressed with girls with make up and high heals...etc 

Most of the things that women do is to impress other women. 

 

You can know this is not to impress other women by watching lesbian couples. This is a total media myth. Women among women with no men around never wear make-up or high heels.

 

 

Im not saying don't worry about your look at all but some of these things to me seem like they are not even to attract men. 

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Anyways sorry to generalize all women i don't mean to... its pure conjecture 

 

No apologies at all, just conversation and glad to hear your opinions and share mine!

 

 

 

I think women need more confidence, since culture tells them that they need to be passive. 

A man has no self-esteem, if he doesn't get girls to like him. If he stays passive. 

And i think its the same for women. 

 

Yes, I think so too.

[aFireInside]

 

I think that, women do develop their beauty but to attract  what kind of man ? (think about that) hint: a man who is shallow himself 

 

All men, all people, respond to beauty!

 

because if this woman develops her beauty and not her mind as much, then a man who likes her likes her for her looks ! (in general)

 

Few men appreciate a woman's mind, it's a cost/benefit, pure and simple.

 

And in general i think this is a perception that women have. The media makes them feel ugly when in reality the average guy thinks they are attractive.

Im not impressed with girls with make up and high heals...etc 

Most of the things that women do is to impress other women. 

 

You can know this is not to impress other women by watching lesbian couples. This is a total media myth. Women among women with no men around never wear make-up or high heels.

 

 

Im not saying don't worry about your look at all but some of these things to me seem like they are not even to attract men. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Anyways sorry to generalize all women i don't mean to... its pure conjecture 

 

No apologies at all, just conversation and glad to hear your opinions and share mine!

 

 

 

I think women need more confidence, since culture tells them that they need to be passive. 

A man has no self-esteem, if he doesn't get girls to like him. If he stays passive. 

And i think its the same for women. 

 

Yes, I think so too.

 

 

 

 

Good point on the women impressing other women, i guess i generalized too much because i noticed that my mom does that but i projected it to all women . 

 

 

But, about the "few men appreciate a woman's mind". I disagree ! I think allot of men appreciate a woman's mind; that is my whole point about this. 

There are Men out there that are serious about there relationships and are not shallow but we have monkey brains that say O look big breast, or big mussels and tall ! 

Then Men and Women complain that there are no nice people out there. 

 

This is my whole point about shallowness.

[Gunnhvatr]

I believe that it's not so much that women do not care about looks in a mate but that in addition to this they care about many things that men typically do not value highly.  Friends, job, home, education, ambition, sense of humour etc.

The narrative implies that this makes women less demanding and men more demanding: I would say the opposite is true.

[Mishelle]

"But, about the "few men appreciate a woman's mind". I disagree ! I think allot of men appreciate a woman's mind; that is my whole point about this. 

There are Men out there that are serious about there relationships and are not shallow but we have monkey brains that say O look big breast, or big mussels and tall ! 

Then Men and Women complain that there are no nice people out there. 

 

This is my whole point about shallowness."

 

Ivan, I think your point and this discussion is very important and relevant. 

 

Let me ask, What percentage of men (not stereotypes or on TV) do you think appreciate a woman's mind, in the general population?  And, at what age to you think they start appreciating it?

 

As I mentioned, I was friends with guys in school, not girls so much.  That means all through high school and college.  I'm not coming to this opinion as someone who only "dated" guys, guys were my buddies, they called me with their girl problems, they hung out with me as the only girl in a group of guys--at bars and so on--so they were very comfortable around me.  Even the smartest most successful and good looking of them did not really care if his date was smart.  It went in this order:  looks, kindness, sense of humor, social skills.  What she would be doing for a career, if she was smart, what her life goals were, never entered the picture.  Some of these guys married the dumbest most gorgeous blonds you'd see on any city street, and laugh about her dumbness without any trace of bitterness or hostility about this.  "Yeah she's so dumb, let me tell you this story . . ."

 

Of course, that said, these guys were/are shallow!  I was no gorgeous blond but I did have a stead stream of suitors and I always loved deep conversations about meaningful things--the number of suitors who had any interest in those conversations was about 3 out of 10. And come to think of it now, 2 of those 3 only tolerated these conversations in hopes of continued um, shall we say, access . . .

 

We live in a shallow world--we raise material girls and material boys.  It's an unfortunate and annoying truth, I'm afraid.

[aFireInside]

"But, about the "few men appreciate a woman's mind". I disagree ! I think allot of men appreciate a woman's mind; that is my whole point about this. There are Men out there that are serious about there relationships and are not shallow but we have monkey brains that say O look big breast, or big mussels and tall ! Then Men and Women complain that there are no nice people out there.  This is my whole point about shallowness." Ivan, I think your point and this discussion is very important and relevant.  Let me ask, What percentage of men (not stereotypes or on TV) do you think appreciate a woman's mind, in the general population?  And, at what age to you think they start appreciating it? As I mentioned, I was friends with guys in school, not girls so much.  That means all through high school and college.  I'm not coming to this opinion as someone who only "dated" guys, guys were my buddies, they called me with their girl problems, they hung out with me as the only girl in a group of guys--at bars and so on--so they were very comfortable around me.  Even the smartest most successful and good looking of them did not really care if his date was smart.  It went in this order:  looks, kindness, sense of humor, social skills.  What she would be doing for a career, if she was smart, what her life goals were, never entered the picture.  Some of these guys married the dumbest most gorgeous blonds you'd see on any city street, and laugh about her dumbness without any trace of bitterness or hostility about this.  "Yeah she's so dumb, let me tell you this story . . ." Of course, that said, these guys were/are shallow!  I was no gorgeous blond but I did have a stead stream of suitors and I always loved deep conversations about meaningful things--the number of suitors who had any interest in those conversations was about 3 out of 10. And come to think of it now, 2 of those 3 only tolerated these conversations in hopes of continued um, shall we say, access . . .  We live in a shallow world--we raise material girls and material boys.  It's an unfortunate and annoying truth, I'm afraid.

Yeah I don't disagree I said guys are shallow from the start. And there is noting wrong with that, I think the thing the most bothers me is people who say they are not shallow when in reality they are

[MMX2010]

On the one hand, I did like Stefan's recent description of women in his most recent call-in show: "Women live like they're two different women in the same body.  The first woman goes out and does stuff, while the second woman has to live with the consequences of all the first woman does - all the while never realizing that the first woman exists."  (I had to pause the podcast, because I was laughing so hard.) 

 

But, on the other hand, I think Mishelle's description of men is highly accurate - they don't care about deep conversations, are, in fact, intimidated by them, and are, therefore, shallow.  (I also remember an article from who-knows-where, which quoted a Roman historical figure as saying that the women who used proper grammar were "really annoying".  So I do think that, historically, men don't appreciate female intelligence.) 

[Mishelle]

I was wondering about that part of the show myself, with the 2 different women.  I wasn't certain I understood what he was saying and wanted to hear more, with more concrete examples.  But, if the gist was that women don't hold themselves or each other accountable--then I say SPOT ON!  This is a big reason why I find it more difficult to be friends with women.  Also it's true in the shallowness--guys will call themselves shallow, and call each other out on it at times--this is against the "girlfriend code".  Lots of things you can't say to women that you can say to men.  And the reverse is also true, I guess.  With a guy friend I could say "dude, packin' a few on, eh?!"  But he would never say that to me.  But, to a woman I could say, "I'm so sorry about your break-up, are you ok? Do you need to talk?" Whereas to a guy to ask "are you ok?" will probably get me a half-shrug and "whatever, it's over, what can you do?"

[dsayers]

I don't think appreciation of the mind and shallowness are mutually exclusive. More than ever, I appreciate a woman's mind, ability to critically think, explore the truth even when it's comfortable, etc. At the exact same time, I continue to be moved by physical beauty. I wouldn't base a close, personal relationship on that alone though. Does this still qualify as shallowness? Is it anecdotal evidence that the two are not mutually exclusive?

[MMX2010]

I don't think appreciation of the mind and shallowness are mutually exclusive. More than ever, I appreciate a woman's mind, ability to critically think, explore the truth even when it's comfortable, etc. At the exact same time, I continue to be moved by physical beauty. I wouldn't base a close, personal relationship on that alone though. Does this still qualify as shallowness? Is it anecdotal evidence that the two are not mutually exclusive?

 

 

Anecdotally, yes.  But Ivan Ares' question can't be answered with anecdotal evidence involving a sample size of one. 

 

I, personally, feel bad - because I feel like I've missed my chance on developing romantic relationships with intelligent-but-not-superattractive women. 

[PatrickC]

I just think the biological differences make men concentrate on creating resources by their own means much more than women. Men have a huge biological incentive to do so. Which is why many women pursue beauty too for exactly the same reasons. This may point to why Mishelle found some women to be dreadfully shallow when she was younger. Although I liked your catch when you considered your own interests as equally shallow, just absurdly different. I'm paraphrasing here of course :)The thing is, in reality you cannot avoid the monkey brain entirely. You just don't let it guide your every decision. It's analogous to saying, 'OK enough chocolate, thanks'.

[Mishelle]

Yes, totally agree on this point of not being mutually exclusive -- we are all deep and we are all shallow.  When i was complaining about the sea of shallowness all around me, and set off on all kinds of deep relationship and study, I quickly found myself exhausted and overwhelmed and longing for some shallow!

[aFireInside]

One crazy thing that I just read !

 

Since the frontal cortex is a new thing to humans. It's an add on .

 

 

When we proses information first it goes through the "monkey brain" .. Then we react and have these feeling then finally the frontal cortex kicks in ....

 

 

 

So for men it's look oh look big boobs , then after that you could choose to examine your reaction and act on it.

Same with women...

[dsayers]

Yes, totally agree on this point of not being mutually exclusive -- we are all deep and we are all shallow.  When i was complaining about the sea of shallowness all around me, and set off on all kinds of deep relationship and study, I quickly found myself exhausted and overwhelmed and longing for some shallow!

 

In this regard, be glad you're a woman. I could be wrong, but it's been my observation that men tend to go all in. I think this would make them more at risk of getting burned out in this regard. I could cite so many examples of this. Including studying philosophy. I go through phases where I binge and phases where I abstain. My kingdom for a happy medium!

[Lians]

Personally, I've not found women to be more shallow than men. I was a very shallow fellow myself, and in my early teens I went for the pretty, shallow girls. When I figured out that wasn't working, I decided to look for pretty and intelligent. Frankly, I only valued the female intellect insofar as it came wrapped in a beautiful package.

 

Shallowness was enforced socially. I remember being afraid of what my friends would say if I dated an unattractive--or less attractive compared to me--girl. I remember being attracted to a girl that I didn't ask out on a date solely because my friends would disapprove of her.

 

Shallowness was all-pervasive throughout the social spectrum--nerds and geeks were just as susceptible to it. Even though they had lower standards, men still longed for the pretty girl.

 

I later found that the character qualities of a girl played an important role in what I found beautiful. Perhaps the raging hormones had finally settled down. "Why did you have to ruin your beauty by opening your mouth," was a pretty common saying in my circle of friends. The reverse was also true--physically unattractive girls with attractive character qualities seemed beautiful to me.

 

Eventually, I managed to find a beautiful girl that was also kind, humble and intelligent. However, dating her turned out to be a disastrous decision. I was so upset by this spectacular failure of a relationship that I stopped dating altogether. Deep down, I knew I was missing important pieces of the puzzle.

 

Looking through the eyes of my former self, I can tell you that a girl with true depth would've terrified me. She'd be able to see right through the hole in my chest and reflect back to me what all mirrors managed to conceal. Furthermore, since I wasn't given a template for true depth in my family, I'd be unable to recognize it even if it slapped me across the face. I couldn't appraise what was truly valuable, so I simply went for the next best thing--biological value.

 

I don't think it's surprising that, given the way they are raised, men shy away from women with depth. The inner life of boys is not only ignored but also mocked and berated. I think it's tragic that the male obsession with beauty drives so much of female consumption and dysfunction, but in reality, women are simply paying the price for shunning our man-feels, rejecting our man-tears and forcing us into our man-caves. What goes around comes around.

[Mishelle]

Holy crap, Lians, do you have your own show yet?!

 

There's a lot here to respond to, but just while I'm shoveling down my lunch before heading back to the garden . . .

 

i knew a couple of those terrified guys I would have totally bonded with in those years of my 20s.  My Hubby called himself, quite unabashedly, a "simpleton" when we first met.  I was very charmed by that honesty and lack of attempt to charm, because he knew very well that was not what "I was looking for"

 

The inner-life is mocked and berated, on boys especially.  I begged men from their man-caves, that doesn't work either.  I would love some man-tears.  I almost married a woman to have this kind of so-called depth.  Emotionality does not equal depth.  Yes, I want us all to be able to experience our emotional lives more with each other, and that feels deep and connected in the moment.  But, women have this in relationship with each other and it is not necessarily a measure of depth, it's just a measure of vulnerability, on the path to true depth and relatedness.

[PatrickC]

I tend to think 'shallow' is the lack of intimacy. Moreover it can be a retreat into safety, at least in part I think.. This is the great draw for us men into our caves of course. Something I've started to negotiate with better recently. The 'man cave' doesn't always have to be about avoidance. It can also be a time for great reflection and resurgence I think.. It's just a question of understanding your reasons for retreating there.. I see the 'man cave' as a great opportunity to learn more about myself.

[Mishelle]

I'm glad that's your experience xelent, it's crucial to have time to learn about oneself.  but of course, the woman experiences it as a 3-prong torture chamber:  damned for putting you there, damned for asking you to come out, damned for not being there once you finally do

[aFireInside]

Maybe since I'm out there in the dating world I see the shallowness of women more than I do of men , and I might be projecting my experience on women .

 

 

Im taking a philosophical view on dating and beauty itself and I'm getting chewed up...

Also I stopped talking to my old guy friends so I don't see men being shallow as much anymore

Also one important thing that I remember stef saying is that women don't have to really on men for resources any more so they don't go for the rich guy anymore ...

They go for the pretty one.

 

 

So I don't think that women going for the rich man is the case

[Lians]

I begged men from their man-caves, that doesn't work either.

 

Yeah, it took me years of self-motivated self-work to get more in touch with my emotions. The gentleness of one woman can't undo years of abuse.

 

Emotionality does not equal depth.  Yes, I want us all to be able to experience our emotional lives more with each other, and that feels deep and connected in the moment.  But, women have this in relationship with each other and it is not necessarily a measure of depth, it's just a measure of vulnerability, on the path to true depth and relatedness.

 

Emotionality is a necessary but not sufficient part of having depth. That being said, I've found women to be particularly disingenuous when it comes to communicating emotions. This was a topic often brought up amongst my male peers: "Boy does it suck to be manipulated by false feelings." The difference here is that women have the option and choose to squander it while men get attacked for being vulnerable. Communicating my anger and rage was acceptable, but bringing up fear, pain, sadness felt like painting a target on my forehead.

 

I tend to think 'shallow' is the lack of intimacy. Moreover it can be a retreat into safety, at least in part I think.. This is the great draw for us men into our caves of course. Something I've started to negotiate with better recently. The 'man cave' doesn't always have to be about avoidance. It can also be a time for great reflection and resurgence I think.. It's just a question of understanding your reasons for retreating there.. I see the 'man cave' as a great opportunity to learn more about myself.

 

The more important question is why you have to retreat in a man cave to become authentic.