Would you say women are more shallow than men ?

[PatrickC]

Just to be clear.. the 'man cave' is not a place women put men. Men certainly choose to go there. It just seems to be quite normal for men to decide at certain times (and rationally too and other times less so) to not engage. Other times it's a retreat from harm... It is ultimately a shared responsibility between both partners of course. It's not particularly reflective of either a male or female dysfunction.That said, I assume from the many male relationships I have had, that it can seem like their lady puts them there. But from a psychological perspective it really isn't. It's mostly their own history with 'not' having their own needs met. Juxtaposed by the responsibility for meeting the needs of others that makes some men retreat entirely. Yes I have known guys that retreat to their garden shed sadly.Given that situation, it could be that any partnership based on unprocessed history could decide their relationship was not the better one.. Not to say that relationship can never be improved, because I'm sure it can.

The more important question is why you have to retreat in a man cave to become authentic.

 

Well I don't see the 'man cave' as being entirely negative.. It allows a man to gather his thoughts, restrain himself and improve his future.

[Lians]

Well I don't see the 'man cave' as being entirely negative.. It allows a man to gather his thoughts, restrain himself and improve his future.

 

I'm not saying it's all negative, but I'd seriously question the nature of a relationship where I have to retreat in isolation to be myself.

[PatrickC]

I'm not saying it's all negative, but I'd seriously question the nature of a relationship where I have to retreat in isolation to be myself.

 

Yes, but that's under the current assumption that men do retreat entirely. I don't actually think they do. but I agree that if they do, then certainly they risk losing that relationship.That said I have found most women appreciate that moment of male clarity that occurred in their quieter (private) moments.

[cynicist]

I'm not saying it's all negative, but I'd seriously question the nature of a relationship where I have to retreat in isolation to be myself.

 

I agree that most modern 'man caves' are more about boyish escapism, but I think xelent means a quiet place to reflect from time to time. I think that being alone to ponder my thoughts will always be desirable, no matter how much my relationships improve. 

[Lians]

I agree that most modern 'man caves' are more about boyish escapism, but I think xelent means a quiet place to reflect from time to time. I think that being alone to ponder my thoughts will always be desirable, no matter how much my relationships improve. 

 

Be careful when you start redefining terms. A quiet place for reflection is too vague a description relative to a man cave. A walk in the park, a hike, going fishing and so forth can all provide the space you need to explore your thoughts and feelings. The man cave is specifically associated with getting away from women and emasculation due to lack of authority in a relationship.

 

Now, this is the third time I address a point that is not at all foundational to my original post. It seems to me that I'm pointing at a smoking crater and you guys are arguing whether the grass around it got burned or not. I'm curious to know why that's happening.

[Mishelle]

I don't fully understand the man-cave or the female equivalent.  I wonder sometimes if my "woman-cave" is crying!  I'm trying to make the parallel when my hubby goes to his man-cave, which is chopping wood, hehe, very manly-manish.  We laugh about it afterward, he knows he goes there to " feel manly" again, sometimes triggered by being disappointed with himself for disappointing me, but other times just from frustration from something going wrong in his projects. I feel it is sometimes shame-triggered and I also think he represses his anger and frustration and takes it out there.  It works, so it's hard to complain about it or want to change it!  But sometimes I wish he could direct his anger at me, if that's what he were feeling, and yell and cry and get it off his chest, because then I'd be included in the process. Instead his more intense emotional world remains a mystery to me. I think it helps him to solve things by himself, I think he would feel weak to do so otherwise.

Anyway, I don't know if that offers anything to the conversation. I did have a boyfriend once who I wished would get himself a man-cave and not constantly hound me with his ever-changing emotions.  That was an exhausting relationship that ended VERY badly!!

[PatrickC]

Yes there is a balance of course.. I think the trick is understanding the difference between how 'deep' you enter that cave. If it's too avoid conflict rather than just some quiet personal moment of gathering strength, then it certainly can be a problem.. I'm just very conscious how the 'man cave' has been lauded as some kind of male dysfunction over the years, when often it's a way for a man to concentrate momentarily on those important aspects to his life, including the family and friends around him.I will say however, that this is a thought in progress for me. But anecdotally I have founnd the women in my life of recent years appreciate and accept my brief moments of 'aloneness'.

 

We went way off topic hey?.. Sorry Ivan.. 

[RealP]

Holy crap, Lians, do you have your own show yet?!

 

Hear, hear!

[aFireInside]

 

We went way off topic hey?.. Sorry Ivan.. 

 

 

 

Don't worry about it this is what the forum is for.  

[MMX2010]

I'm struck by two particular replies in this thread.

 

The first is from Lians, who says:

 

Looking through the eyes of my former self, I can tell you that a girl with true depth would've terrified me. She'd be able to see right through the hole in my chest and reflect back to me what all mirrors managed to conceal. Furthermore, since I wasn't given a template for true depth in my family, I'd be unable to recognize it even if it slapped me across the face. I couldn't appraise what was truly valuable, so I simply went for the next best thing--biological value.

 

And the second is from Mishelle, who says:

 

 

Anyway, I don't know if that offers anything to the conversation. I did have a boyfriend once who I wished would get himself a man-cave and not constantly hound me with his ever-changing emotions.  That was an exhausting relationship that ended VERY badly!!

 

I've been reading (slowly, and with much resistance) Nathaniel Branden's "The Psychology of Self-Esteem", and I realize that my emotionality (from my older, mirror self) was really just an avoidance of life.  I didn't want to think, so I didn't want to live. 

 

I had internalized the myth that women were "caring and powerful" - so much so that they could take someone like me, who didn't want to live, and provide him with a purpose, a reason to live. 

 

Right now, though, I know that that's complete bullshit - because other people don't have the power to provide anyone with a self-generating, self-informed purpose.  But, back then, I strongly believed in it - and when no woman would want to be with me, I just concluded that they were shallow. 

 

I still strongly doubt a lot of the cultural myths about female strength and female caring - (mostly because I don't see a lot of strong, caring behavior from women-in-general).  But I don't think it's fair to only notice this in women, and to conclude that they're, therefore, more shallow.